Building Brand Gravity Podcast

Jon Woods: It's just too much of a game changer for an organization to not step in. And I think what we're gonna find is that there will be organizations that if you ask them today, they would've said, "Oh yeah, we're using AI. We've got a enterprise license with ChatGPT," or, "We, we're using Copilot." But what they'll find is just enabling the licenses and not doing the work with their team and not doing the work with their people, it's going to lead to them looking around one day and saying, "We missed the boat here."

Steve Halsey: Welcome to Building Brand Gravity. I'm Steve Halsey.

Anne Green: And I'm Ann Green. Thanks as always to our listeners for joining us today.

Steve Halsey: You know, today's episodes gets into one of the most talked about, and frankly, one of the most misunderstood topics in our industry right now. You and I know it, [00:01:00] love it, we talk about it, we can't avoid talking about it, and yes, once again, I'm gonna talk about AI.

And this time, AI not as the headline and not as the tool, but how does AI show up as a real shift in how communications and marketing teams actually operate, how they make decisions, and how they build relevance in the marketplace?

Anne Green: Exactly, and one of the things we've been digging to in, uh, into quite a bit this year on the podcast is how AI is not just a technology story.

It's as much about leadership and culture as it is about a massive technological leap forward. I think that's sinking in more, but we have to keep talking about it. So we're seeing firsthand how it's starting to change how teams work, how we ideate and expand our toolkits, so to speak, and also in how decisions are being made as, as you implied earlier, Steve.

And in many cases, we're also seeing how it exposes whether organizations, everybody's really, actually have [00:02:00] clarity in how they operate. That's because, and this is a theme we've been discussing a lot, AI doesn't fix broken systems. It's a bit like that old saying, garbage in, garbage out. I mean, when you apply a technology like AI to a system or a strategy that's essentially broken or, or even simply not aligned, I think we feel pretty strongly, Steve, that AI just amplifies what's not working.

Steve Halsey: Yeah, that's right. And,

Anne Green: and it's also raising, I think, some important questions for leaders. So there's many, many of them. But questions like how do you create space for experimentation while still maintaining standards? And also protection, given the continued issues around cybersecurity and protecting client IP, and those issues are gonna become more intense as you have models like Anthropic Mythos coming onto the scene.

How do you build confidence and acceptance across teams that are at very different levels of AI adoption? We're facing that just like everyone, especially when there's so much negative news flying [00:03:00] around the whole topic today, including potential jobs impacts. That weighs on people. And, and also how do you make sure, this is very important for us, that human judgment, the part that must own and build trust and credibility, doesn't get lost as more of our workflows become either more automated or are driven by agentic systems?

So these are the questions and the tensions that we're seeing play out across organizations right now. We're deep into this, Steve, I know, but d- it, it really still feels like only the beginning.

Steve Halsey: You know, and that, and that's really what sparked today's conversation. A few weeks ago, we hosted the first Americas AI Summit with our partners.

We're part of an independent agency network called PROI Worldwide, and we brought together agency leaders from across North and South America, even had a few from Europe came over and joined us, basically to share what's actually working, like you said, where are teams struggling, and how expectations from clients are evolving over time.

And you were a big part of putting together that, that [00:04:00] summit and that discussion. And what came out of that summit was pretty clear. Like you said, this isn't just a technology conversation, it's really a leadership conversation.

Anne Green: Yeah, I couldn't agree more on that, Steve. It's a leadership conversation.

It's also a very human conversation. So today we're gonna continue that discussion right from the PROI summit to, to now, to a discussion you had with two agency leaders who are right in the middle of the shift, working directly with clients to navigate how AI is changing everything from workflow to visibility to reputation, to really what the agency-client relationship will look like in the future.

So joining Steve on this episode of Building Brand Gravity are our PROI colleagues, um, Hailey Driscoll from Walker Sands and John Woods from gl- Ground Floor Media. They're both bringing a thoughtful, but I think also highly practical on-the-ground perspective on what they're seeing and how they're advising themselves and other organizations like clients to move forward.[00:05:00]

And the conversation, I know, Steve, that you had definitely goes beyond just the products associated with AI. You dig into where leaders are getting stuck, how AI is shifting from a tool to really a full channel in some ways. You know, we can define our terms, but it, it's much bigger, and what it really means to build past what we call the baseline of AI adoption.

Steve Halsey: Yeah. So, so whether you're leading communications, marketing or, or just thinking about how your organization stays relevant in such a fast-changing environment, this really is a conversation about what actually matters in AI right now, and, and, and I'm excited to share it with our viewers and listeners.

Anne Green: All right. Let's get into it.

Steve Halsey: Welcome to Building Brand Gravity. I'm Steve Halsey, one of our hosts. And with me today, uh, two very esteemed guests that I'm excited to hear their points of view on AI. We have Haley Driscoll, who's the SVP of PR and the managing director of [00:06:00] Boston for Walker Sands. Haley, welcome to the podcast.

Hailey Driscoll: Thanks. Good to be here.

Steve Halsey: And we've got John Woods, who's a partner with Ground Floor Media. John, excited to hear your points of view as well.

Jon Woods: Excited to dive in. Thank you, Steve.

Steve Halsey: Yep, ready to go. Well, we're gonna call this episode AI Is Changing the Rules: Are You Leading or Reacting? And I had the great opportunity to talk with John and Haley.

Uh, we're all part of PROI International, which is, uh, a group of independent agencies around the US, around the world actually, uh, that, that come together to share best practices and, uh, to really expand our knowledge and our capabilities. And, and we hosted The first ever AI summit a few weeks ago, so we had about 30 participants from throughout North America, Central, South America, even had a few of our friends from Europe that snuck over because they thought it'd be a little more fun to be here with [00:07:00] us.

And we were talking about a number of things in ter- and I'm just gonna hit a couple of these because I have these in my notes, and then we'll get into, into some questions. But one of the things that, that we really spent a lot of time talking about was this bifurcation of maturity in terms of where AI is sitting or kind of this messy middle.

Everybody is doing something to some point. Some are really far ahead, some are at a little bit more at the nascent stage. So you're seeing this bifurcation, not just within the agency world, but also we're seeing that among a lot of clients. We're seeing that AI is already being embedded in a lot of our core functions, creative, how we do our media, workflow, strategy, crisis simulation, all of these things, which really then begs the question of where does value sit in that, that setup?

And I think one of the biggest constraints that we really talked about was it was less about the technology and more about driving [00:08:00] behavior. And to me, I thought that was the really interesting one. So I guess I'll start on that and, and, and Haley, we'll kick it to you first. When you think about AI and the conversations you're having with clients and with your team, what are the biggest misperceptions or blind spots that, that, that you see out there from a communication standpoint?

Hailey Driscoll: Yeah, it's a great question. I think there are, there are several. Um, one of them I think, which I, I hope we get into a little bit more as we go, is just the idea that a lot of people are really focused on AI as an efficiency tool, which is, is understandable. Um, I have a lot of clients that come to us and come to their internal teams and say, "Build me an agent that can do X."

And, um, it's something that is probably, uh Not the best use of team's brainpower and time, but it's also not moving the needle. So instead of thinking about what AI can deliver that we weren't able to do [00:09:00] previously at all, um, they're stuck on focusing on it as just an efficiency tool. So I think that's one challenge.

Um, the other really big one that I'm seeing right now is not looking at the fundamentals or the building blocks that you need for AI. So I think because of everything we're reading in the media, the pressure to innovate, people are jumping very quickly to wanting to create these efficiency tools, these agents, right?

Um, but they're not thinking about some of the building blocks that might be critical to get there. For example, do you have the right data that's going to ensure that you get really high-quality outputs, um, from AI that you're using? Does your team know how to prompt in a way that is going to most effectively deliver those outcomes?

And so, um, summarizing, I think, uh, some of the challenges or misconceptions are this propen- or this drive to move very quickly without stopping to think about, A, what are we really trying to achieve here, and B, do we have the right building blocks in place [00:10:00] to actually make that possible?

Steve Halsey: John, what about from your perception?

Do you see a lot of, uh, common blind spots?

Jon Woods: I do. I think the, um, gravitation towards efficiency and time savings, even if it's in service of spending more time on strategy and creativity and things that We as humans excel at is, it, it's leading to, uh, disappointment in some circumstances, and it's leading to, while there are things that can be done and automated now that can help find time for more, more productive, more valuable activities, there's, to Haley's point, setting up the systems and building the context and all of those pieces that need to be in place to get, um, appropriate output, and the, the human layers that need to be built on top of those processes, the review, the verification, um, even how it's communicated [00:11:00] within an organization of how did you use AI?

Did you not use it? Are we, are we using AI on top of AI? You s- it was created in one tool, and then somebody from the proofing team or from a reviewer is also running it through AI, so you're getting skewed results. Those processes aren't yet in place, and it's, it, it's almost as if when you think about the internet and the, the change in, in the late '90s and early aughts when the internet and e-commerce and all those tools changed the way we worked, it happened slowly.

It ha- this is like if you to- if you went back all the way to the early '90s and you just dropped today's internet on them and said, "Figure out how to make this work in your business," people wouldn't have known where to start. They got... There was a, there was a slow, steady drip there comparatively to what we're now facing, um, and it's creating, it's creating issues with adoption and inconsistencies and, and making sure that, that team members understand where the organization is, uh, and where they're going.

And [00:12:00] to, to Haley's point, many people aren't taking the time to t- to truly understand what are our processes, what are our goals, what are our values around how we use these tools before they race and try to build.

Steve Halsey: Yeah, and I, and I, I think a big part of it, too, is to give some granularity to the definition.

It's like saying print Or digital. You know, those are, those are some pretty big things. So I, I think people feel like they need to use the word AI, but then it's thinking about how do you use that? Where do you put that in context? And, and one of the ways I like to think about it is, is almost as three different layers, right?

At one level, yes, there is an efficiency layer and the ability to very, very quickly process data or information or things like that. There's a certain automation, uh, efficiency to it at, at a really base level. But then there's a mid-level of, hey, how does this really improve the work that we're doing? How does it, how does it do the quality?

Uh, not just the analyzation of the, of [00:13:00] the data, but just really using it as a thought partner, partner, creative partner, ideation, a research tool, whatever is going to make that human better at the council. And then for me, then that third layer is, but then what kind of new IP can we create if in the markets that we serve you're getting deeper and deeper and building that data set to which you could create some really new IP.

But I'm, I'm interested in your take. But for me, that's where I kind of think of it as at three levels. What is that AI level for efficiency? What makes the work better? And then what new cool, fun stuff can we, uh, can we create that creates a lot of value for the clients and the brands we serve?

Jon Woods: What excites me about it and, and what I've s- seen excite some of our, our clients is a lot of barriers have been removed.

So the, the things that were holding us back from wanting to create more, um, more personalization for our customers to deliver better [00:14:00] messages at, at better times, to deliver better products and services. Um, a lot of the things that have been stopping us from, from going as far as we want to, to truly create experiences and tools for our, our customers and us in turn for our clients, um, i- There, there shouldn't, uh, many of those barriers are gone now.

Um, it re- still requires a level of creativity, it still requires technical know-how and, and most importantly, the data to get it done. But the, the sky really is the limit on what we create now. So there is a little bit of prioritization. Uh, if we can build everything and we can build anything, well, what do we do first?

And how do we make sure that we're not trying to build everything and we're not trying to build, um, anything? So, uh, prioritization on, on what we're doing, and making sure that, that we're, we're bringing everyone along, that we're not leaving team, team members and customers behind, and that we're putting the thoughtfulness into how and what we're [00:15:00] building to ensure that we should be building it.

Uh, and making sure, uh, getting comfortable with that idea of this, you hear with AI, "Oh, I'm getting left behind," or, "It's moving so fast." Getting comfortable with the idea that you're never gonna be in front of AI. You're always gonna be behind at some level, and if you're doing what's right for your organization and right- what's right for your customers, then that's okay.

Hailey Driscoll: Yeah, I think it's a good point, this letting go of the fear of where am I relative to the industry as a whole, um, whether that's the PR industry or just AI in general, right? I, I work with a lot of companies who are, they are AI companies, and they themselves ... I had a, an executive say to me this morning, "The story I would've told you about AI adoption last week is different than what I would tell you this week."

So I think letting go of that and staying really focused on, on your own progress and how that maps to the strategy that you've ideally identified before you, you start building and moving, um, that's the only [00:16:00] benchmark that I think is, is realistic. Um, in terms of what I'm seeing with clients and sort of different levels of, of interest and adoption, I do think there's been a really nice reinvigoration of, of what we do in our craft, right?

I have clients that, you know, we always wanna be a partner to clients, a thought partner, um, rather than just a vendor, but I think that's- Coming to life in a very different way now, where I have clients coming to me or me coming to them and saying, "Hey, I have an idea for how we can approach this challenge in a very different way with a mix of our team members and technology.

Would you be up for, for trying this together?" And vice versa, I have clients coming to me and saying, "I wanna experiment in this way. Do you wanna do this with me?" And so I think that is taking that thought partnership that we've always valued in working with clients to a new level of we are really building processes and systems in, in a new way together, and that is a [00:17:00] really special way for our, um, us to work with clients, but also I think our industry to advance.

I will say, though, that with that, I think, and I'd be curious if you all are seeing the same, I think there's a very large gap between those companies, agencies or in-house communicators that are wanting to move forward and willing to take those risks, and then, um, other organizations or individuals who perhaps it's not as big of a priority or, um, there's still a little bit of concern about How deeply or how much to trust technology beyond really basic use cases, um, since as I mentioned, the story and the reality is changing so much every day.

So I'm personally seeing such a discrepancy. I would say that's even true of internal team members, like adoption is very varied in terms of like comfort level with it, and, um, curious if, if you're seeing the same across your organizations [00:18:00] or client organizations.

Steve Halsey: Yeah, I, we, we are, we are seeing a big change and, and at least how I'm talking about it, uh, both to clients and internally, is you've got to think about it in two ways, kind of, I call it competency and relevancy, right?

It is moving whether we wanna be there or not, and you've got to get some level of proficiency as an organization and as an individual to have that base competency, and that's gonna be required to stay relevant. Stay relevant to your clients, to the market, to the conversation, to the speed of pace, and I think that's really interesting.

And I think one of the things for me, um, that's been really interesting about this is, you know, over my almost, uh, three decades, uh, i- in this industry, most of the innovation that we saw was being driven very heavily by agencies, by tech startups. I mean, that was really where-- And then it was, "Hey, how do we convince the corporate clients and brands to move along?"

There are so many [00:19:00] CCOs that I'm talking to right now that are really driving the innovation and leaning in here because it really allows them to optimize even tighter budgets now, even tighter staff, um, and just thinking about how that can make them almost function like a larger department. One of the, um, largest companies in, uh, biopharma research was talking to their, um, CCO, and she said, "You know, it's kind of funny, like 20 months ago, we were just kind of playing with, oh, let's see what ChatGPT and Copilot could do."

She said, "Now my expectation is you don't come into a meeting with me without having used AI in some meaningful way to improve what you're about to present or the decisions we have to make." So you have companies like that are really leaning forward, then we have others who are still, I think, fighting with their legal team and their IT team as to is AI a...

What, what is it? Is it a technology that needs to be governed under IT rules? I, [00:20:00] I don't know about you, John. What are, what are you seeing? Are you seeing that same mix of early adopters, laggards, and those trying to figure out, uh, the middle?

Jon Woods: The, uh, big time. And I think that, I think that it's, there's such a variety of situations.

Everyone's personal journey, um, here at, at, Groundfloor Media with our clients is unique. So it's, it's, I, I hesitate to even put them into, to two buckets, three buckets, 10 buckets of, of what that adoption looks like. And, and we've been-- it's been really interesting to see, um, which folks are, are wanting to experiment, which folks wanna wait and understand what's the tool that, tool, and tool set that we're gonna use, and, and who is hesitating.

And I, w- we are, uh, as an agency, we use Enneagram, and we use Emergenetics, and, and we understand how, um, how different people think differently. And I haven't, within those tools, um, [00:21:00] haven't seen a, a consistent, oh, someone who's more of a blue thinker is l- or someone who's more of a yellow thinker loves AI.

It's, it's across those different, um, thinking types. Um, so I don't know what that, that driver necessarily is or what's holding people back, but it's very, very, um, different for, for everyone. And it's, that's another thing that's holding organizations back from making sure that the team is at at least a base level of consistencies.

Everyone needs, at some level, unique, um, guidance and unique teaching on how to adopt those tools. And then with the, the organizations that we work with, there's a lot of, there are, there are, um, situations like that, Steve, where one department has kind of h- they've, they've been given the freedom to, or, or they have a leader who buys in, and they can explore and use tools, and they're, they're showing other organ- o- other groups in that organization how these tools can help them.

But even in [00:22:00] those teams where we're seeing companies struggle is where there isn't just full across the board buy-in. Um, almost always where it's done well, that's come from the top. It's come from a CEO and a C-suite who, who open the doors to say, "This is something that we're going to use. This is something we encourage you to use.

It is okay. We're going to experiment," whatever it is, that it's not necessarily coming from those individual departments and it's an or- it's an organization-wide f- uh, flag in the ground saying, "We're going to do this," because it, it doesn't create those individual pockets, but it creates an organizational buy-in.

And I think in the future what we'll see is those companies are more successful because if in two years from now the marketing department and the ops team have figured out how to use it, but now you're saying, "Okay, finance, um, okay, legal, it's time for you to get on board," and they're starting back from square one, you're gonna, you're gonna repeat a lot of these issues over again.

So it's, it, it really [00:23:00] requires organizational-wide buy-in that, that starts, that starts at the top and starts from a, a C-suite that understands the value and, and buys in and isn't, isn't afraid.

Steve Halsey: And I, and I think when I hear you say that, I mean, it really is really becoming a bit of a leadership competency.

So Haley, kind of from your, your perspective, you know, as a comms leader, how are you pushing your teams? How are you pushing the brands you work with to, to think about what's right for them?

Hailey Driscoll: Yeah, it's a really good question. I think that there are a couple of questions that I like to work through with a client when they, or even an internal team member, frankly, if they come to me and say, "I think we should use AI to do this project," or, "We should build an agent to do this function."

There are a couple of questions to make sure that we're grounded in something that is going to be really effective. One being, is this new, um, and worth investing significant time and resources [00:24:00] into? And two, is there a way to measure the success or the quality of the result or the output? And I know it's really common to, to look at AI and measure it in terms of like time saved or dollars saved.

That's not even necessarily what I'm talking about, but do we have a framework through which we can evaluate the output of AI to assess whether it's actually helping, um, us to do something in, in a more, not only efficient, but in a more strategic way? Um, or are we just creating more of a drain or like an AI debt through, through creating material that we're not actually able to assess the efficacy of?

Um, to give you an example, I think that one area where I'm seeing a lot of promise, and we talked about this when we were all in New York together, is actually testing messages, uh, against au- specific audience data before that goes live. So, whether that's campaign [00:25:00] messages or pitch angles you wanna test on a certain kind of, uh, media subset There's a lot of potential there, and, uh, a lot of agencies, Walker Sands being one of them, because we're integrated, we have a lot of data that our marketing strategy team collects on different, on different audience types and, and whatnot.

And so being able to use that sort of data to validate, um, campaign messages is, is a huge opportunity. However, I think just trusting an AI output without actually looking at other, um, signals in the market, doing fresh research of your own, speaking to human stakeholders, all of that stuff, um, you know, we can't, we can't take that as a single output.

And so that's an example of where I do think it, it answers the question of being able to deliver something new, but also you are able to assess the quality of it by taking AI's output as just one consideration rather than the end answer or [00:26:00] the end result.

Jon Woods: There's just such an additive, um, an additive element to what these tools can provide us with.

You mentioned, um, earlier the ability for smaller teams to now be so much more enabled because of what some of these tools can deliver. Um, uh, the, uh, for us as an agency, the, um, the additions to research and pressure testing and message testing and, um, uh, personas and all those different things that, that we've always been able to do, but haven't always been able to do, um, for, um, clients without b- budgets that were big enough, um, where we were always balancing resource loads within our own team.

Um, and then we've seen with our clients the ability to, to test, to go into campaigns, um, more prepared, um, the ability to [00:27:00] segment and personalize, as I mentioned before. There is just-- It's, it's just too much of a game changer for an organization to not step in. And I think what we're gonna find is that there will be organizations that, that if you ask them today, they would've said, "Oh yeah, we're, we're using AI.

We've, we've got a enterprise license with ChatGPT," or, "We, we're using Copilot." But what they'll find is just enabling the licenses and not doing the work with their team and not doing the work with their people, it, it's gonna, it's going to lead to them looking around one day and saying, "We missed the boat here.

We, we didn't get what we expected, uh, expected to." And I know that we, we, we started this question with, is this a leadership competency now? And I think that the So much of what, when we approach AI, so much of the skills that are needed and the approaches that are needed are not new. I mean, I think even as we're, we're, we're working with clients on [00:28:00] how they adopt AI, it, it goes back to what we've been doing for two dec- 25 years with internal com- uh, communications and employee engagement and making sure that everyone, uh, on a team is working together.

Those are s- those are things that we've been doing with clients for decades, and AI is a new use case there, but it's not a new skill.

Steve Halsey: Well, that's, that's really good food for thought, John. Haley, you know, you had said something interesting when we were in New York, uh, that was about thinking about AI as a channel, right?

We've been talking a lot about it as a tool, but maybe you can talk a little bit, what do we need to know about it as a channel in terms of visibility, GEO, reputation? All that good stuff. It's really multifaceted, I guess.

Hailey Driscoll: Yeah, this is another area where I think agencies have a lot of exciting opportunity for innovation.

I also think a lot of the clients that I'm working with, their leadership teams are [00:29:00] aware of this shift of AI and how that's increasingly a marketing channel. Um, but not everyone really knows what to do about that, and so it's another area where we're having a lot of conversations with clients. I think when it comes down to it, the, the crux of the situation is that, um, search behavior is really changing.

I saw a stat that for the first time in, I think, 10 years, Google's market share, uh, for search dropped below 90%, which is still fairly high, but in the context of how we've always searched, it, it marks a really significant change. And that's because buyers, whether that's consumers or even B2B buyers, are increasingly turning to LLMs at all stages of the buying journey to answer questions, see how one company stacks up against another, and really do their research.

And so now brands are contending not only with needing to be visible in traditional search, but also within generative [00:30:00] search. So how do they surface, um, in responses, prompt responses in ChatGPT or Claude, Google AI Overviews? And what's really interesting about this is, I mean, there's so many things I could geek out over this, but for one thing, all of the traditional levers that, uh, made a brand more visible in SEO are not necessarily the same things that are going to help the way that you show up, um, in generative engines.

But I also think that, um, the really exciting opportunity for PR people and comms teams that we're working with is that earned media is actually one of the most cited sources that's influencing gen AI prompt responses. And so it brings additional gravitas back to brand storytelling. The other thing is, uh, because AI prompt responses are not only determining whether a brand is visible, but they're also determining, um, how you are positioned because the generative [00:31:00] engines are actually writing responses about your brand or your category, right?

The story really matters. And so for people in our profession, the clients that we're working with, um, again, this resurgence of brand storytelling is really key because One of the very basic 101 ways that you can ensure the perception that you have in a generative engine prompt response is, um, consistent or accurate is by making sure that you have a very consistent story that you are telling across all of your channels.

So we are re-entering a timed where, a time where earned media is really critical, but also the story behind all of your channels, um, is arguably more important than ever before. And so, um, I'm very excited about, uh, how this shift is changing the marketing landscape. Um, and a, a lot of our clients have a lot of curiosity around this too.

Steve Halsey: So John, I, I guess they, they can't kill the press release, right? We've been hearing, uh, [00:32:00] decade after decade that the press release is dead, but it still has importance today, resurgent like the Phoenix, uh, now that we have, uh, have AI out there. What's, what are your thoughts as AI as a channel, and how are you counseling brands on, on thinking of it in that lens?

Jon Woods: The search component is, is so huge right now, and it, it's It, even though it's being built off of k- the, the structure and, and the, uh, architecture of a, of a search and SEO, uh, system, that was still just-- that was solving for Google. That was, yes, Bing and Yahoo, they, they get traffic, but it was solving for Google.

I think we all would focus there and, um, and then worry about the others later or, or not. But it's... This is so different. I, I just, uh, got back from vacation last week, and I hadn't noticed until I was in that situation, but I've-- between the tools I've... For Gemini, I use Gemini when I wanna learn something, [00:33:00] when I want to find s- the type of thing that I would search on Google.

What- tell me more about this landmark, or what's the story behind XYZ? It was a Gemini search. And then when I wanted a cocktail recipe, something that was personal to me, what kind of cocktail should I order here? Here's the menu. I went to Claude. That's where I've, I have my, more of my personal context.

And, and then when I wanted to learn how to do something, how do I fix this? Or why, how do I make this fan work in the hotel room? I went to, uh, to ChatGPT. And I'm not saying that that's a, a, a typical experience, but at where we haven't even mentioned, um, Perplexity and Grok and Meta's, uh, Meta's tools.

It's, it's, th- there's, it's just so much more complex of an ecosystem. And you can't say, "Hey, we're gonna show up in ChatGPT, and we're gonna call it a day." Because if you're not showing up in Claude, you're missing a huge percentage of your audience. So you're trying to solve why there's sim- similarities between them.

You're trying to solve a lot of problems at once. Um, and yes, [00:34:00] some of those typical SEO components still matter. Um, but to, to Haley's point, the getting mentioned by third parties through PR, through social, through influencers, all of those tools are more and more important. And to get those mentions, you have to, A, you have to have a talented agency that knows how to, uh, that has the right relationships and knows how to tell the right, the right stories.

But you also have to make sure that you, your, your brand story and the way that you live it, the, the way your customers experience it is, is perfect. I mean, it really needs, every positive mention is so valuable, but every negative mention is so much more damaging now than it used to be. Um, Will Reynolds, um, sen- at Seer Interactive wrote a story about how for them, they, when he was doing searches, um, there was all this, these positive reviews, and they would always show up, but all of the tools started surfacing one negative re-review that was, like, 10 years old [00:35:00] because they, the tools were inherently looking for something negative to include.

So that one negative r-review where we would even, we would counsel, um, clients, uh, a year ago, "Hey, that negative review, you've got 100 positive and one negative, and it's 10 years old. Don't worry about it." That's changed the game a little bit because if, if every single person is seeing that over again It becomes infinitely more damaging.

And then even as we're, we're all building for this, today's ecosystem and these tools today, maybe we're looking a little bit down the road, it's changing so quickly. W- we're, we're, we're not far away from a world where people don't go to the website anymore. The, the tools are doing all that work for us.

They're doing the e-commerce, they're transacting. I was-- We were looking at summer camps for our, our two boys recently, and I w- I, I looked at probably 10 different options, 12 different options, and only, only for the final one that we chose after we had chosen it did I go to the website and transact. So all those other sites never got my visit.

They couldn't [00:36:00] remarket to me. They couldn't... They didn't see any-- They didn't see the impact of me joining, what pages I looked at and get that data. Only the one that I transacted on did. And we're not far from a world where I could have just said, "Great, uh, Claude, now go enroll my boys in this camp and, and let me know when everything is done."

So it, it requires a level of, of foresight and, and building for the future that's really, really hard to do right now.

Steve Halsey: Well, and, and, and one of the things I, I think is interesting, and we've been doing this, uh, a lot in the counseling we're doing around issues in crisis, just to the point that you were talking about, you know, we used to call it data hygiene.

What is it? Hygiene has a good ... That kind of to build off of Hailey's point, there's a lot of story hygiene we have to do. If you've got old information out there around your company, when an issue or crisis hit or somebody searches it, guess what's gonna be front and center, right? So I think a big part of, uh, issues and crisis preparedness that brands need to do is [00:37:00] to think ahead of what are those likely scenarios and think about what information do we need to start staging and telling a credible story now so that the large language models, if somebody searches, will be pulling that information and, you know, less of maybe old information that you've led on there.

So I also think it's important, it's not a set and forget, as you both talked about. There's also a lot of I gotta think ahead, but I also gotta look behind and see what's out there and make sure we've got some good story hygiene. I mean, from, from your, your perspective, Hailey, what, what other things should CCOs and CMOs be thinking about right now?

Hailey Driscoll: I do wanna double-click on what you've both been saying. I love, Steve, what you mentioned about story hygiene, and Jon, the example that you gave about how you're, you aren't even going to the website when you're doing research into a product or service that you want to, uh, look into. To your point, I think that that reality is [00:38:00] closer than we think, and imagine what that means for brands' ability to tell their own story.

That's why I'll, I'll say again, the, the ability to have a very crisp and well-articulated and consistent, consistency is the key, story across all of your channels is really critical because not only is Claude deciding whether or not Jon and his family are going to assess your camp, they're als- Claude is also deciding what are the key messages that Jon is going to learn about that camp, right?

The AI is actually, um, shaping the perception that someone is going to have about your product or service in addition to just determining whether or not it's visible. And your own channels, while still relevant today, are becoming less and less of, um, a source that, that can be counted on to tell the full story.

And so I do think that story hygiene issue is just so important, and I would encourage CCOs and CMOs to look at it from the [00:39:00] perspective of starting with the story and then thinking about how it goes through every channel, including, um, growth, growth channels, sales motions, but then also the traditional communications and marketing channels, of course.

So that's, that's a really big one. And then the other thing that I would encourage them to think about is, again, going back to, uh, the data that they have that they're using to, um- Build or test messages on because there is so much data out there, but I, I still think there's a tendency to rely a little bit more on, uh, base level of, uh, source material if you're creating a custom GPT or just rely on ChatGPT or Claude's knowledge and ability to scrape the internet.

But, um, really if you subscribe to this belief that we are going to be using AI more and more as a channel for search, as a marketing channel, but also as a tool, as [00:40:00] professionals, um, making sure that you have the data foundation in place so you, you've as- assessed what is the really critical data for your brand or for marketing, you have consistency in how it's formatted.

And I, I realize this is the boring stuff, but I think figuring out those fundamentals now is not only critical for how you are using the technology today, but also, like I said, if, if we subscribe to the belief that this is only going to increase in relevance, making sure that you are taking the time now to have those fundamentals figured out is critically important, and I think it's a step a lot of people are missing.

Steve Halsey: Yeah, I, I agree. I agree. And, and John, a, a, a question, a question for you as, as, as I reflect on those examples you talk about and how omnipresent AI as a channel, AI as tools are getting in all of our lives, how do we stay curious? What, what, what a- what advice do we have so we, we don't just become [00:41:00] one with the machines, but we use it to unleash our creativity and curiosity?

What, what advice do you have?

Jon Woods: It's a great question. Um, it's, it's-- these tools are such an en- enabler, um, to, to learn and to experiment, but there are, there are so many, um, and they're changing every day. There's-- it's obviously there's a big, um, a big cost component. I think it's, a- and I think it's a l- it's not entirely aligned with your question, but I think it's really important that for those folks that aren't inherently experimenters, that they're at least experimenting, with quotes for those that are listening, within one tool.

Like get really good at one tool and understand its in and outs and its capabilities. And when I say tool, I'm mostly leaning towards, um, the, the, the Claude and, and ChatGPT and even Copilot and understanding do I-- am I really using [00:42:00] all of its capabilities or a good percentage of what it can do, and do I understand this tool?

That I think is so much more valuable than saying, "I know a little bit about a lot of tools." If you know, if, if you're, you've gotten good at one tool, you're, you're ahead of a big percentage of the, the population. And I think it's, uh, it's gonna be different for everyone, um, but it's, it's keeping a curious mindset and being able to filter out a lot of noise because, uh, the, the buzzword around even within AI, you know, right now it's agents and what can agents do for us?

It'll be something different in six months, and then as soon as that buzzword hits kind of a fever pitch, you've got every company adding in and talking about how they're utilizing it. But going all the way back to the beginning of our conversation, understand-- starting with outcomes, um, and starting with here's what I'm trying to do, what tools can help me do that, versus what new features do these tools have that I may or may not [00:43:00] need is, is incredibly valuable.

And then finding the right sources for you, whether it's a coworker or a blog or an email newsletter, um, finding those sources that, that deliver the information in a way and at a level that you're comfortable with. If you're doing that and you're, even if you're missing out on part of the conversation, that's okay.

Again, you're still staying ahead of, of most people. Uh, find time. I, I think every-- one of the things that We've seen that's been really important is finding an hour a week to just, to just experiment. And it doesn't have to be work-related. If, if that's something that you don't have time to and don't wa- uh, during the week, and don't wanna do it on a weekend, find a, find something to do, um, a- and experiment with AI for whatever it may be that interests you.

For a hobby. If you're a runner, how can this help me improve my, my times? If, if you're a reader, how can this help me find new books and log the books I'm reading? Um, really think about how can this, how can I learn [00:44:00] about this in a way that's enjoyable versus feeling like a chore?

Steve Halsey: So Haley, last question.

It's been a fascinating Building Brand Gravity episode. Last question goes to you. If you were to go back in time a year ago, a month ago, a week ago, a day ago, to give yourself advice on AI, what would it be?

Hailey Driscoll: Um, I think regardless of the time period, if I were to go back in time and give myself advice on AI, it would be just start experimenting and being curious.

I think the real unlock for me and for a lot of other people that are really passionate and seeing the potential here was one day sitting down and thinking, "I have something that I want to be able to do that I haven't been able to do before. How can I start tinkering with technology and, and figure it out?"

Um, I think the more that people, I love that John said curiosity is, is really key to this because I think that's the, the crux. Um, so the more that people [00:45:00] are willing to just dive in and just start learning in a hands-on way, um, the more value you're gonna be able to get out of it, and that's certainly been true for myself.

And, um, I think going back, just being willing to dive in more quickly and more fearlessly, um, is the advice that I would give to myself.

Steve Halsey: Well, wonderful. Well, thank you both for being guests on today's Building Brand Gravity. And again, Haley Driscoll from Walker Sands and John Woods from Ground Floor Media.

I invite you to check both of them out on LinkedIn. Check both of their companies. Amazing firms that we would highly recommend. Thank you so much for being with us today on Building Brand Gravity. And to our viewers, any questions or comments, please send them our way, and we look forward to seeing you on another upcoming episode of Building Brand [00:46:00] Gravity. 

David Grossman: [00:00:00] Good leaders most often as they're listening, they're also thinking about what they're gonna say next. Whereas exceptional leaders are thinking about listening and thinking about empathy as a real-time intelligence system.

Anne Green: This is Building Brand Gravity. I'm Anne Green.

Steve Halsey: And I'm Steve Halsey. Welcome back to our viewers and listeners. And Anne, have we got another great episode for them.

Anne Green: I agree. Later on in the podcast, we're excited to share a conversation I had with David Grossman of the Grossman Group. That's a consultancy he founded 25 years ago focused on organizational change and leadership and communications.

But David is also the author of a new book, here it is, titled The Heart Work of Modern Leadership: Six Differentiators of Exceptional Leaders, and that's what we're gonna dig in [00:01:00] together. And in it, he explores the kind of leadership needed in this moment of, I think we'd all agree, unprecedented complexity.

Unprecedented, Steve, we can't get away from that word.

Steve Halsey: Unprecedented.

Anne Green: Yeah, exactly. So you, you know, Steve, David commissioned research with friends of the pod, the Harris Poll, we've had them on often, and the research found as a top line, a lot more detail in the book, that only 30% of leaders meet the fast evolving needs of today's workforce.

And my discussion with David is all about the kind of mindset needed to go from good to really exceptional leadership that, as David says, integrates both the heart and the head, which he finds to be very important, and helps to build teams that thrive and innovate even when under great pressure, which I feel, you know, the environment is right now.

So before we get into my discussion with David, I thought it would be fun to pose a question to you, Steve. What do you feel [00:02:00] are the leadership qualities that support resilience in uncertainty and the ability to advance organizations and people no matter what the environment? Easy question for you, Steve.

What, what would you say to that?

Steve Halsey: Yeah, that's a really great question, Anne, and honestly, it's one right now that feels less theoretical and more operational. So I think for me it comes down to really kind of three qualities that you need to see consistently in leaders. And it's that ability, as you said, to navigate uncertainty versus just react to it, and I think that's an important nuance.

First is clarity under pressure. Not certainty, but clarity. That's that ability to step back, to make sense of the complexity, and articulate a direction that people can align to. So basically, in a moment like what we seem to be constantly in these days, everything is moving faster. It feels more ambiguous.

Teams don't need perfection, they just need a clear signal of where to go. The [00:03:00] second, and I think this is really important, I'm gonna throw air quotes around it, I call it "adaptive conviction." The best leaders I know, they do hold strong points of view, but they're not rigid. They're willing to evolve as new information comes in.

And really, it's that balance between confidence and curiosity, knowing where you're going but staying open how to get there, maybe some detours along the way, that I think is really critical. And third, and, and, you know, you really talk about this a lot, and I think it's an important part of your leadership style, is intentional connection.

And I think that's where David's work really resonates, is really this idea that it's just as important for the mid and long term to not just focus on those outcomes, but really what is that environment that you're creating where people can actually perform their best, to know what's expected of them, to be empowered to make [00:04:00] those decisions if they have a clear direction to go.

And that requires trust, empathy, and a real understanding of what motivates and challenges, you know, your team. So I think when you put all three of those together, the clarity, the adaptability, and the connection, you get leaders who can not only withstand uncertainty, but I think actually thrive in it and move their organizations and their teams through it.

What about you, Anne? What are the leadership qualities that you think are most needed today?

Anne Green: Yeah, I'm thinking about this a lot, no surprise, both for our group as a whole and our two agencies, but al- also our clients. I mean, I think we have to acknowledge it's not an easy time to lead or be led. You know, humans like certainty, and we don't have an abundance of that right now on many fronts.

But I really like the ones you shared, Steve. Very resonant for me, especially the idea of having both vision and conviction, yet remaining really highly adaptive and flexible. Um, I like that one a lot. Here are the three ones that I thought about [00:05:00] knowing I was gonna ask you the same question. So I think first, emotional intelligence to me is more important than ever.

Um, and that really starts with knowing yourself as a leader, understanding how what you are feeling can unconsciously drive both your perceptions and your behavior if you're not plugged into it, and making clear and informed choices about how you act and interact in the moment. That to me is all really critical to building the relationships and really tr- the trust that are so needed today, and that connects back to me to another podcast conversation you had with Dr.

Rochelle Ford of Paige about confidence in business, like the trust question. The second one I think is related to some of what you said, which is learning to sit in uncertainty. We are in a time when the unknown is a feature, not a bug, to use the old software metaphor, right? And we can't allow ourselves to be paralyzed by it.

We have to get comfortable with faster scenario planning paired with even faster pivoting as new [00:06:00] information becomes available. You can't be precious with your plan or your viewpoint. You have to be willing to change, right? And then the third for me I think a lot about is personal resilience. So it's funny, I was never an athlete in high school or college.

I was more on the theater and performing arts side, as many of our listeners know. But I'm thinking of myself more as an athlete now in the context of being a CEO or both of us being principals of this firm. Like, I need to be intentional about sleep and nutrition and exercise and mental health, and also taking breaks with people I love and things I love to do to ensure that I can bring my best to our teams and our clients.

So that's on my mind, too. And you know, Steve, to sum it up, uh, we always talk here at G&S Integrated Marketing Communications Group about creating an environment where our people can be high performance and highly human. That's a both/and. I do not believe these are mutually exclusive, and I think David Grossman's book is right in the pocket on that topic, frankly.

Steve Halsey: Well, you know, that sounds like a great [00:07:00] segue to get into your conversation with David, so let's go.

Anne Green: I'm so pleased to be talking to a wonderful person, David Grossman. Welcome to the podcast.

David Grossman: Thank you, Anne. Glad to be here.

Anne Green: So I'll do just a little bit of a bio. I've got it right here. Author, consultant, speaker, um, a real authority on leadership and change, uh, communications inside organizations, which is an area of great interest for me.

I always try to tell my leadership I'd like elite communications inside and outside our own organizations, like the shoemaker's children, if we can advise others, if we can't do that for ourselves too. But you are founder and CEO of the Grossman Group. Um, are you 25 years this year, David? Is that right?

David Grossman: We're, we're actually 26, but we're s- we're still celebrating, Anne, because you know what? There's just y- y- you always can celebrate things, right?

Anne Green: Yeah, it's true. And that's right, I remember the campaign last year. But that's a long

Steve Halsey: time

Anne Green: to have a consultancy, and that's a lot of impact you've had on others.

And we're here to [00:08:00] talk about something I've re- really enjoying. It's your book, The Heart Work of Modern Leadership. You see my little tape flags up here.

Steve Halsey: Um, six differentiators for exceptional leadership.

Anne Green: And w- the way I like to start, you know, we're gonna have a really nice substantive conversation, David.

But as people listen to us talk, I love to give them some framing and a lens to look through. So if you could tell our listeners what should they be listening for as we speak today relative to the book and what you're trying to describe today, what would that be?

David Grossman: So the headline is that there are three blind spots that good leaders face today.

I don't know about you, Anne, but I'm in that good leader category, and those blind spots are getting in the way of engagement and trust and business results, and specifically how we're rolling out AI successfully. So hopefully we'll talk about those blind spots, but also what are some solutions, some, some things we can do as leaders and senior leadership [00:09:00] teams to get at that.

Anne Green: That is great. And I think that there's some words that we're gonna unpack that feel positive, but they're more complicated in the context of what you're writing about, including the word good. So what motivated you to write this book? You've written other books before, and this is really jam-packed. It's actually beautifully illustrated.

There's a lot of meaty substance in here. Many, many other leaders' voices are in here as well. But what was the genesis for you, David, in, in saying, "I gotta put this all together," and why the heart work, not the hard work, the heart work of modern leadership?

David Grossman: Yeah. So during the pandemic, I, I talked with leaders about how they were doing, what were they doing, and one of the themes that came out was this idea of there wasn't a playbook, we've never been here before, but I just wanna be, and I am being human.

And I thought that was really profound, um, as we think about leadership today. So after the pandemic- Uh, [00:10:00] all this uncertainty started in our world, of course, and I wanted to get some data then to find out what does exceptional leadership really look like today, and does that human element still... Is it still as important as it was during the pandemic?

And as I've sort of grown up in this field, I've always been curious about the question: What makes leaders great? So it was all about sort of what makes leaders great today that led us to partner with the Harris Poll and to look at some research around what do employees think and what are those answers.

Anne Green: Yeah. I love that, that partnership with the Harris Poll, an organization we all know, and, um, we call Rob and team friends of the pod here because we're always interviewing them about very interesting research they do with the Page Society that you're very familiar with. In fact, uh, Steve Halsey just talked to Dr.

Rochelle Ford about that confidence in business data. So, you know, I love, um, that you're grounding this in data. So let, let [00:11:00] me get into some foundational terms here and some of that foundational research, 'cause I think it'll set the stage for everything that's gonna come. So some stats that you-- that stood out for me, and there are many in the book.

This was a very ri- rich piece of research. 54% of employees surveyed rated their leaders as good, okay? We're gonna come back to the word good and trouble the water a little there. But only 30% of employees describe their leaders as exceptional, and another 17%, happily the least, say their leaders feel outdated.

So my first question to you is what is the overall take on these stats, and, and what does that mean, good versus exceptional? Because, uh, that is so critical to understanding what you're trying to express in this book.

David Grossman: So as we were doing the research, I thought the book was gonna be about bad leaders, those outdated leaders.

But the reality was when we looked at the data It's actually more about those good leaders, [00:12:00] because when we asked employees, "What does it feel like working for those good leaders?" That's where we found those three gaps that were very surprising to me, that less than 20% of employees working for a good leader felt seen, felt heard, and felt like they were reaching their full potential.

What I realized is good leaders were built for stable times. They were trained during stable times. The habits that they have were all around stability. And of course, I wouldn't use the word stable to describe the times that we're in today. They are incredibly uncertain. There's so much change and transformation happening, and this good leadership today is really this invisible gap that I want to bring forward to help leaders think about what may not be seen on the surface.

Because when you think 54% good, senior leadership teams [00:13:00] would look at that and they'd say, "That's terrific." But when you dig deeper, you find out there's really an invisible problem and a big vulnerability that organizations are facing today.

Anne Green: That's really helpful, and I love that surprise that you had, because the idea of being really outmoded or really problematic, you know, just not great, and obviously not great.

Uh, it reminds me of something I often say to my people as they grow into managers themselves. I often say that when it comes to interpersonal issues or employee growth, now we're looking... You're talking about leaders, and we'll come back to that, but when we're talking about the growth, I often say that superstars are a little bit more clear-cut, and those that are really struggling or kind of a disaster for whatever reason, maybe it's just not the fit, are more clear-cut.

It's the folks in the middle, because there's such a huge range of what may or may not be at play there, and it takes a lot of discernment. So tell me again, what are those three blind spots? I think you just said them, but I really want to underscore the, that for those who are listening.

David Grossman: Yeah. Let's, let's go through those.

Before we do, [00:14:00] let me share two things that good leaders do well.

Anne Green: Good. '

David Grossman: Cause I'm a big fan of let's also know what we do well, and let's keep doing those things that we do well. So good leaders value the work, value the contribution, and they support the work as well. So they provide direction, and insight, and answer questions, and they say, "Thank you," and, "Great job," and really value the work.

So those are all good things. Good leaders should continue to do that. Then there are the three gaps. So here's the first. Only 16% of employees under good leaders feel that they are valued as a person.

Anne Green: Hmm.

David Grossman: So there's a subtle distinction here. We just talked about good leaders value the work. This is about valuing the person behind the work, and that's a significant difference, and that's [00:15:00] super important.

Second, 19% of employees feel heard. When you hear that stat, leaders often think, "Oh gosh, it's a listening problem." But it's not a listening problem, because you can't hear what people won't say, and people won't say things when they feel like it's risky. So not feeling heard is really a psychological safety challenge and issue.

And then the last is 14% feel they're not reaching their full potential. That's the lowest number that we m- measured, and that's a retention crisis sort of in, in the making, if you will. There's a invisible drip behind the wall in our house, Anne, that we don't know about, but now we do know about it because we've got some data, and we, we need to address it, all three of those gaps.

Anne Green: It's interesting, David, to sit and contemplate the distinction, and I think they are profound, between leadership appreciating the [00:16:00] work and the output, and being grateful for that and expressing that, versus where there feels like a divide between recognizing the person that's doing that work or that person's sense of purpose or value, and that they're being actualized or realized within the role.

Am I, am I thinking about that right in trying to tease those things out?

David Grossman: Yeah. It's perfect, Anne. So, uh, I'm a big Broadway fan, as, as you know. And in- Me too ... ev- in every musical, the hero early on comes out and they sing what's called an I Want song, and it tells you essentially everything you need to know about that, that hero.

So should we do a little quick test here? So Ariel f- f- Ariel, for example, what does Ariel want?

Anne Green: She wants to be human or to have- Yes ...

David Grossman: legs. Yes. To be pa- Yeah, exactly. To be part of our world. Exactly. Okay, Elphaba. Elphaba, what does Elphaba want?

Anne Green: Oh, to... Yeah, absolutely. Uh, those movies are amazing.

David Grossman: She wants to [00:17:00] be absolutely sort of herself and be seen as who she is on the inside.

One more. We'll do Hamilton. What does Hamilton want?

Anne Green: The world's gonna know my name. What's your name, man?

David Grossman: Well, exactly. And he wants to make sure he's not gonna miss his shot.

Anne Green: Don't miss... Yes, exactly.

David Grossman: Yes. So every employee has their own I Want song, and the question for us as leaders is, do we know what that song is?

Because that song or that story tells us everything we need to know about that person, their hopes, their dreams, their aspirations, the path that they're on, sort of where they are in their life journey. Super important, so that we can recognize that and them instead of just the work that they're doing.

Anne Green: I wanna get at this in a slightly different way, although you may have already said it, but, uh, we'll see if, if there's any distinctions here.

What do you think many leaders believe employees need versus those pieces you've just talked [00:18:00] about, especially that I want kind of piece? What, what do you think is that gap? What, what do you think most employers believe and think employees want?

David Grossman: Yeah, I, I'm not sure that leaders are always thinking about what their employees want and need and how to help them be successful.

I think sometimes we as leaders, we're sort of stuck in our heads and our minds. Like, we're very clear about what we think and what we need and how we want to proceed and what we want to accomplish But then the question is, how do we accomplish what we want to accomplish through the very people that we need to help us get there, that have their own ideas and thoughts and perspectives, and do wanna be trusted and motivated, and are a really important information source for us as leaders to make successful decisions?

Anne Green: Do you think the gulf has gotten wider in recent times? We have a few different macro trends, or [00:19:00] just foundational pieces and threads that I feel could be at play here. There is generational shift. Each generation has... A lot of the generational cliches are not helpful, but, but some of them are very true, and a lot of it has to do with what different cohorts of a generation are living through at any given time.

There is the post-COVID environment, the different way work is being done. There is tremendous upheaval. Sometimes I say to my more senior folks, "If you look at our more junior staff, you know, in some ways for Generation Z and younger, the social contract has been broken in some ways." But do, do you... And then there's the AI of it all, too, obviously, which makes things even more unstable.

So it's a lot of that unst- instability you've been talking about. But do you have hypotheses on what some of those macro threads are that may make this a slightly different environment now when you talk about that stability versus instability? Is there more there?

David Grossman: Yeah, I, I think you captured, you know, the myriad of factors that are making our world much more uncertain than ever before today.

And I think then [00:20:00] you weigh on, you add onto that the weight that people are bringing into the workplace today. Psychologists call it allostatic load, that sort of emotional weight, that heaviness, that I think it's fair to say has n- never been as high as it is today. And that means that we as leaders are the real variable here.

So... And I've been thinking a lot about, like, what's the relationship between uncertainty and leadership and the employee experience? And the reality is, all of this uncertainty isn't going to change. And, you know, the employee experience is going to be different based on what kind of leadership. So f- so for example, if you take uncertainty times outdated leadership, you're gonna get paralysis and disengagement, and all those things that we would expect.

On the other end of the spectrum, if you take uncertainty times exceptional leadership, you're gonna get that safety and trust and [00:21:00] advancement and confidence that we all want. But what's so interesting is you, you have good leadership, you take uncertainty times good leadership, and what we're seeing today and what you're getting is anxiety- And complacency and drift.

And that's very different than we've seen in the past in stable times. And that means we as leaders need to help our folks, help ourselves first, and then our-- help our folks work through all of this uncertainty and this emotional weight that we carry. And most leaders today, those good leaders were never trained to deal with all this emotional weight and all of the challenges that we face in the workplace today.

Anne Green: When I read, um, your discussions about the load folks are carrying mentally and, you know, and we can use the more, um, scientific word or we can say mental load and, and, you know, as a shortcut. It's funny, in our town hall for my own [00:22:00] team in Q1 talking about AI I had our creative team do a picture of a brain, and I had it labeled AI mental load.

And on the-- There was one side of the brain that was lighter, and I spoke to, these are the things we hope to focus on: medical advances, augmented intelligence, you know, greater productivity, human flourishing. But on the dark side of the brain, I said, we are being forced to hold and contemplate a whole host of things.

So when you list them all, feel a bit insane. You know, water use, land use, environmental, job loss, societal disruption, potentially autonomous weapons. I mean, this, it, it, it was a long list, longer than the other side. And I was trying to say to folks, I wanted to name it and say, we have to understand the load we're carrying just on AI alone, not to mention the rest of it.

So that very much resonates with me, and I feel like if you can't name it. And also as counselors, so we are in integrated marketing communications, so we also have to serve as counselors to [00:23:00] clients. And my attitude about something like AI, for example, as a huge disruptor, is you have to hold both sides, or you cannot speak to it and counsel others nor follow your own path.

But wow, the load of carrying that is a lot, David.

David Grossman: Yeah, absolutely. And part of what you're talking about here, too, Anne, is just biology in that we, you know, we have two operating systems in our brain today. And in, you know, in the prefrontal cortex, we have the higher level kinds of activities that happen when it comes to creativity and problem-solving and all of that.

And then there's the primitive part of our brain that's in the am-amygdala, and that's more like the smoke detector for danger, if you will, today. And, you know, as you go through the list that you just went through, so much of that causes... I think oftentimes about our, our thinking brain is like it's Wi-Fi for us.

The Wi-Fi goes down, the amygdala gets hijacked, and it's very difficult for us to do our best [00:24:00] work and thinking. And so there's some biology, too, today that we need to recognize and acknowledge. 'Cause if we're not dealing with some of that emotional content or emotional weight in the workplace today, it doesn't take much for someone to go from their thinking brain to that survival brain, which means that they are not as productive and helpful and getting as much work done as possible.

So I share all of this because there's some literal biology here that we need to account for. And one of the things that we know, gratitude, as we did the research, was the number one differentiator of exceptional leaders. And part of the value of gratitude and recognizing not just the work, but the person, as we've been talking about, is it short-circuits the survival brain It says to employees, "I see you.

I value you. You are safe." And that's just a reality that we leaders need [00:25:00] to start to figure out and deal with in the workplace today.

Anne Green: I think that's so powerful, um, because it also, and I- we've done some training for our leaders on emotional intelligence, which feels more urgent than ever these days to know even what's going on in your own body, whether you practice meditation, mindfulness, emotional intelligence.

But I think that practice of gratitude also takes you away from your own alert system. We are, especially those of us in fields like marketing or comms, internal comms, leadership, are, are really very highly sensitive to risk, looking at possibilities, looking at what could go wrong. And when you are focused on that, that's a natural way that also aligns with that, you know, that, that ancient system in our brains and bodies, and you have to be alert to that.

But I do think gratitude is a way of reprogramming, and that's actually brings us, I'll show it for the camera, the, the six differentiators that you identified. If, if you could share what those are, um, I'd [00:26:00] love to reflect on those. What are those differentiators of exceptional leadership today? What are the six that you've identified and why?

David Grossman: Yeah, absolutely. Ha- happy to do that, and I, I wonder if I can share sort of each of the differentiators and then what good looks like-

Anne Green: Yes, absolutely ...

David Grossman: and what ex- what exceptional looks like. So- Please do ... so grat- gratitude Um, oftentimes good leaders feel appreciation, but they, they move too fast. They may just say tha- thank you, and we've already talked about they might recognize the work, but not the, the person.

Exceptional leaders slow down. They share gratitude, and they recognize the person. They say, "I see you. I see what you did." And it's hugely valuable. They treat gratitude not like fine china. I don't know, does anyone still have fine china, Anne, anymore that you bring out at special occasions? But instead, it's like, um, a, a cast iron kind of pan that gets better the more that it's [00:27:00] used.

And to your point, too, Anne, gratitude doesn't just feel good for the person receiving it, it also feels good for the person giving gratitude. And so the challenge, the opportunity with this number one differentiator is can we recognize people? Can we share gratitude three, four, five times a day? And if we did, how powerful that would be for not just us, but for our people as well.

Anne Green: And how we do it in an authentic way, too, where it doesn't... Because I do think that people are very wary and very highly tuned to things that feel not real from the heart. So I think that's a very interesting part of it, too.

David Grossman: Absolutely. Perfo- performative. You know, people, they s- they sniff it out really quickly, and, and they know when it's real and, and genuine.

That's when it really, it makes a difference and, and it, you can just, you can feel it, that it's, it's genuine as you're sharing gratitude with folks. Uh, so that's the first. [00:28:00] The second differentiator is around listening and empathizing. So good leaders most often, as they're listening, they're also thinking about what they're gonna say next, for example.

Whereas exceptional leaders are thinking about listening and thinking about empathy as a real time intelligence system That this listening, this curiosity, this empathy is giving you as a leader information about potentially what weight this employee is carrying, some potential solutions that you might not have thought of.

There's so much power or empowerment in listening and empathizing. So that's the second differentiator.

Anne Green: I love you bringing curiosity into that, 'cause I think that's extraordinarily important, because it's not just, "I'm gonna listen and feel for you or with you." I wanna be curious about you. And then I think the other thing you reminded me of that one is that one of those hard manager and then leadership lessons is listening without solutions.

Mm-hmm. That I just, I'm not gonna [00:29:00] just fix this situation, right?

David Grossman: Yeah. Being hugely curious. I, I challenged a leader last week in a conversation to only ask questions. In his next conversa- if you only ask questions, it means you're continuing to gather information. It means you're continuing to be curious instead of what we often see.

I mean, look, there is way too much telling that happens from leaders and not enough, and not enough listening. I think we, we all know that listening is such an important skill for folks to continue to work on. And the advanced skill too which I would challenge folks to be thinking about is often thinking about, like, what is not being said.

That's really the advanced skill here. So many conversations, there's an undercurrent or undertone, or there are facts or data that just aren't being shared, and your Spidey sense starts to go off, and that's the perfect time to be seeing if you can listen for what, what's not being explicitly said.

Anne Green: That's great.

David Grossman: All right. [00:30:00] Differentiator three, fostering an inclusive culture, which is all about this idea of we're all in this together. So good leaders let culture sort of run from momentum, if you will, and are purposely sort of thinking about culture. Exceptional leaders are thinking about creating that psychological safety that we talked about, about understanding what their people are carrying, about checking in with them, about asking questions like, "What am I missing?"

Or, "What truths have you thought of but you haven't mentioned here?" So creating that safety that gives us data and information that we really need and can use, and that can be super helpful to us.

Anne Green: I love that because we know, especially in recent years, the whole concept of inclusivity or inclusive culture as part of the acronym DEI, diversity, equity, inclusion.

It's been much abused, to [00:31:00] be polite about it. But I also think the principles and practices of DEI were not well-defined always, and the idea that somehow it was exclusionary. So the idea of to reflect more on what inclusion might really mean and the kind of supercharging it can do to individuals and culture, and to really sit with that, I, I love that discussion, David, and I think it's really important that we return to that and we understand that inclusion is still so deep and profound, and it has so much to do with trust and being seen and being heard, and feeling like you can have your voice in the room.

I mean, there's such, such a world there for me when you talk about that one.

David Grossman: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, the data is, is super clear that folks aren't feeling seen. And, and that's why, from a framing perspective, I think about it as creating safety so folks can speak their truths, and this idea of we're all in this together Whatever we're working on , we're working on this collectively to get to an end, and we need everyone's best.

And in a [00:32:00] lot of cases, we need some different, diverse perspectives if we wanna innovate, for example, to get to wherever it is that we wanna go. All right. So differentiator four then is communicating with context. So good leaders were trained in a time when they had answers. So employees would ask questions and leaders would have answers.

In uncertain times today, exceptional leaders share what they know when they know it, and they also share what they don't know, versus good leaders often wait to share information till they have all the facts, for example, and we know what happens then. The information vacuum fills. So better to share what you know, you know, when you know it, and what else you're working on trying to find out.

Anne Green: That one is really critical. I see in client service often, I've, I've advised people over the years, communicate with full context and more fully the first time so you don't have the situation of telephone game or a bunch of short emails where understanding becomes less and [00:33:00] less and frustration gets higher and higher.

And I think that idea of how do we... And I love I was laughing to myself when you were like, "In the old days, leaders, you know, people had questions, leaders had answers." And today we can't have all the answers. So I think even recognizing that, how leaders sit in uncertainty and their lack of knowing. I often some- I talk sometimes about if I'm confronting something I don't know, it's like I'm opening a fan, and every rib of the fan is a possible outcome, and some are amazing and some are horrible.

But, like, kind of taking in all those outcomes, but then how do you share what you know or believe or hypothesize at that time? I, I think that's a really productive thing to be thinking about.

David Grossman: Yeah, a- absolutely. Well, and, and think too about, like, what happens when, when you say, "I, I, I don't know," you know, to a team, and say, "H- help me.

W- what do you think? What are the possibilities?" You're demonstrating being vulnerable. You're opening up the discussion to a lot of people who, chances [00:34:00] are, have some strong, important perspectives that are worth considering that you may or, or may not have. That's why one of my favorite questions to ask is, "What am I, what am I missing here as a leader?

Like, what, what else is here that I'm not thinking about, that we're not thinking about?" Which invites others in a safe environment to, to make a contribution and to help, because we're all in this together, of course. All right, the next differentiator, five, is about connecting strategy to employee growth.

So this too gets at the third gap around employees not feeling like they're reaching their potential. So good leaders talk about the why and the what of strategy, why we're going here and, and what the strategy is, or what our goals of our team are. Exceptional leaders talk about the why, the what, and the you.

So here's our strategy, here's where we're going here, and here's how you benefit. Here's how you're going to contribute and develop and be part of [00:35:00] this, which helps individuals know then that they have some potential. They're gonna contribute to what's most important for us.

Anne Green: David, I do have a question on that one, because even our organization, which is smaller than some of the, many of the largest companies out there, this really matters for us, too.

And some of the change initiatives we've been driving, we're talking at, um, the organizational level, the group level, and also to individuals, but one of the things we've been talking about in leadership is how critical it is to spend more time at that one-to-one individual level. Do you, do you feel that's important to, to make this real?

David Grossman: Oh, ab- absolutely. I, I think, you know, what do our one-on-ones often look like today? You know, we get with someone, hopefully regularly, and what do we talk about? We talk about the work. What we don't often talk about is sort of the path that they're on, their development plans. What we don't do often is an emotional check-in with them as to how are they doing when it [00:36:00] comes to work, sort of what kind of weight are they carrying.

So my wish is that we do more one-on-ones with each of our folks, including a one-on-one that is solely about that employee's path and development and career. Because that is gonna be a kickoff to hopefully ongoing conversations about them, and that tells them that they have, they have a future here.

'Cause that now they have some sort of sense of path and how we're gonna help them continue to grow, and how we hope that they're gonna, of course, stay with our organization.

Anne Green: You know, and I, I think it's so good. I, I was kind of leading the witness and asking you to answer that, 'cause I certainly agree.

But I, I do think we all fall into a trap, and there's a lot of things, by the way, as reading this, I look in the mirror and say, "I could do better," you know? Absolutely. But I, I think we do... Well, of course our one-on-ones we're gonna talk about that person's career, but I think there's so much less of that, and so much less about let me translate this bigger picture strategy to you, and [00:37:00] what, not that I have gospel truth on what exactly it'll mean, but this is what we hope it'll mean, this is what we anticipate it'll mean, and I think we can get very caught up.

Um, I am in a professional services environment, as you are, and that work and that client responsiveness can, is, is paramount. It's why we exist, and yet it goes back to something you said earlier. How do we slow down and open it up more and make that context stick, and, and really bring it to life for people, make it legible?

So, you know, there's so many dots you're connecting for me. I love going through these one by one. Uh, also this is really helpful.

David Grossman: Yeah. No, me too. Me too. So the last one then is empowering teams to meet the moment. So good leaders build trust when things are going well. They often default to micromanagement when things ar- aren't going as well.

Not always, but, but sometimes. So exceptional leaders proactively look at and think about the wellbeing of their folks, [00:38:00] about their workloads, about their boundaries. We just talked about career development. I would put that in that, you know, category as well. Exceptional leaders are m- uh, modeling good work-life balance and ensuring that their ac- actions are following their words as well.

Anne Green: That's great. That's great. You know, it's, reading the book And looking at the different, even the six differentiators, what very much struck me is that this kind of heart-centered or heart-forward heart and head, which is what you do talk about in here, the, the two of them, this is not a binary, it's a both/and, does not feel like it's currently in vogue, so to speak.

There is a hardness to the dialogue, and I think it has to do with the current US administration and just sort of the trickle-down of some of the culture around that. There's, um, there's kind of a bit of a, um... It's, it's, it's cliché, but sort of a hyper-masculinity in terms of how people might see that in, in leadership.

I feel like it trickles down a bit and, you know, there's a lot of implications to [00:39:00] this. It's sort of the approach of a doge, um, or it reminds me very much of the Jack Welsh era of GE. Again, an amazing leader in some ways and a very hard leader in others. And, um, I'm not a rocks in glass houses kind of person, but I had clients in the GE ecosystem in the early '90s, so I saw the impact of that kind of leadership firsthand So I feel in some ways your book is taking this in a very different direction, and I j- I just love your thoughts on this because as you said, the research points to much of what you're saying in terms of what it means to have exceptional leadership that actually leads to business results and outcome, and is very much quantitative as well as qualitative.

But what, what's your reaction to almost having a counter-narrative today?

David Grossman: Yeah. Well, I think, y- you know, the evince- evidence isn't new necessarily, and it's for sure not i- ideological. I mean, you know, m- my point of view is very much based on, on the research, and we're seeing in the media today, [00:40:00] Anne, a lot of conversation about sort of hardcore, hardcore CEOs.

And I think hardcore from a situational, uh, perspective is often needed. It's like, look, we've all seen organizations that, um, the market changes, or customers change, or there gets to be complacency, and some hard decisions need to be made inside the organization. I, I get it, I appreciate it. You know, I see that we help organizations through those times.

But when it becomes a default, I think that's when there's fallout when it comes to hardcore. Now, on the other end of the spectrum, you know, the idea of just focusing on psychological safety is... and not business results at the same time is not where we wanna be either. And so what's really not being talked about here is this invisible gap with good leaders that you and I are talking about today, [00:41:00] how employees are feeling, where there are gaps, and where we as leaders can step forward in different kinds of ways to meet their needs and get the results then that I think all of us want.

Anne Green: Yeah, and it, another thing that's in the culture right now is this idea of founder mode, where you're gonna come in and just drive and run everything, which gets into the micromanaging piece. And,

Steve Halsey: and absolutely, I agree that

Anne Green: this does not have to be a binary. We need real business acumen. We need to be ready to make hard decisions.

We need to be clear in our own minds about it, but we also need to understand the power of how we relate to others. And it's interesting because some of what you're talking about here reminded me of something that we're working on in my organization. I, I want to embrace the idea, and I've asked our teams to embrace the idea and explore the idea that we can be both high performance and highly human.

And actually, in your introduction you talk about, um, balance technological advancements such as AI [00:42:00] with human connection, balance productivity with wellbeing and reasonable boundaries, balance business results while also promoting personal growth for employees, and I under that- underline that, like, starred it 17 times because that to me is what I'm hoping to embrace with the both/and of high performance and highly human.

But what is your reaction to that kind of idea?

David Grossman: Yeah. No, I, I, I think it's perfect, and it, it's exactly what's needed today. I think about it as leading with your heart and your head. So it's not an either/or. It is that both/and, and it's knowing when to flex which approach, and not also relying on one approach as your, like, dominant default style.

So one of the pieces of research that we haven't talked about yet that I think would be helpful here is when we looked at the attributes of exceptional leaders, nine out of the top 10 are heart-focused. Number 10, by the way, the head-focused is leads with [00:43:00] transparency. And what's so interesting about this data is you may recall Google did a study, 2009 or so.

They called it Project Oxygen. They admitted they were trying to demonstrate that te- at this point that technical skills were more important than managerial skills, so that they looked at managers and markers and technical, uh, folks and sort of the markers. And what they found is high-performing managers had better engagement, better retention, and better results.

And when they looked at what are those markers, nine out of the top 10 were what they called soft skills. So this is several decades ago. Different time, different methodology, but the same results we're seeing here, Anne. And for me it says we're still not investing in these skills. And w- one other thing.

I need to get on my soapbox for just one minute if you'll allow me.

Anne Green: Oh, please.

David Grossman: I want to retire the word soft [00:44:00] Soft skills. Because today, these are really hard skills. Given the rise of AI and everything we talked about today, these skills are some of the hardest to acquire and some of the hardest to do and execute predictably.

So my wish is, let's retire soft skills. Let's call them what they are, which is human skills that are so essential today and more needed in the workplace than ever before.

Anne Green: It's so funny, David. You literally took the words out of my mouth. When I was gonna chime in, I was going to say, um, soft skills are anything but.

And I joke sometimes with my colleagues that, um, there's a reason Harvard Business Review makes so much money. It's because managing is extraordinarily difficult. And we talk sometimes at our firm at, uh, that the business is a tapestry. All the threads are interwoven and interconnected, and you need to tease them apart and see them individually, but understand how they knit together.

And the idea of managing people, [00:45:00] being a manager, being a leader, has so many component parts to it, so many threads to it, that I agree. And, um, I think it's very interesting to hear the dialogue around AI from so many quarters that- In some ways, I just heard Ezra Klein interview the philosopher and tech pioneer Stewart Brand.

Um, and Stewart was saying, you know, he's in his 80s now, but he's seen so much develop. But he was saying that he feels like AI will teach us much more about what it means to be human than, than anything technological, and we're going to learn those skills that are really unique and powerful, and a lot of it does come to a lot of things you've been talking about.

So I, I find that very timely right now in that AI discussion.

David Grossman: Yeah, th- and n- no question about it. I, I mean, you know, people who don't use AI well are going to replace people who do use AI well. And I think there's a corollary that people that are human are going to replace people who aren't [00:46:00] human in the future, because it's those human skills that help us implement AI effectively and/or it's the human skills that AI can't do that only we can do.

So I, I think about it like there's this human moat, if you will. With the rise of AI, as AI becomes and commoditizes so many of these head skills, there's this human moat, and these are the skills that today, and you said this so well a few minutes ago, and I love the tapestry and threads that we need to pull on, that we need to think about how do we gain these skills, and then how do we start to use them more consistently and predictably inside the workplace?

And just one note on predictability, because that's super important. I just wanted to just touch on it. So as we're implementing these human skills to the extent we as leaders can become predictable, so our people aren't guessing what we're thinking, what we're going [00:47:00] to do next. You know, can we become predictable that I'm going to hear you, I'm going to see you, I'm going to create a safe environment, I'm going to help you continue to develop.

That's what's needed, too, with these three gaps.

Anne Green: Well, and that's powerful because you become the source and that foundation of predictability within the unpredictable world, where at least from a behavior standpoint, it's not that That sense of, "Oh, I'm, I'm not certain," or on the extreme end, "I feel like I'm gonna be gaslit," or some negative thing.

Yeah.

David Grossman: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I f- I, I feel like, like our, our job is to create some stability with our folks who are bringing this emotional weight into the workplace and dealing with all of this uncertainty, and that means we have to figure out and take care of ourselves first. That's the old oxygen mask, um, idea.

So then we can, you know, take care of our people who are going to deliver or not on our plans and strategies and goals.

Anne Green: So I wanna wrap up today. You started, I asked you to [00:48:00] tell people what to listen for, and now as we end, what are a few actionable things, you know, aside from getting the book. Get the book, folks.

Read the book. I, I found it to be very rich. You can open it almost anywhere and learn something, especially because we didn't even get into all the anecdotes and stories from the other senior leaders you read, a lot of whom I know, so that was fun. But what are one or two or maybe three things, David, that you would love people to think about, um, doing, adopting, taking on?

David Grossman: So maybe let me give you two from a senior leadership and then one just from a leader perspective. One is I feel like, um, we need to get data. We need to get data around how are we doing today when it comes to filling these gaps, and engagement data is lagging. We need some leading indicators around change initiatives and, and how are they, uh, faring around, um, sort of voluntary attrition and, and other sets of data that we, we have, just w- you know, we need to look at that.

That would be one. The second [00:49:00] is to classify leadership development as risk management, much like regulatory compliance or cybersecurity. You know, can we think about it not as this need to build that's budgeted, but rather what we're talking about is risk management today as we're filling those gaps and helping leaders with all these skills that are needed that they don't quite have today that are gonna help us into the future, including, by the way, help us implement AI successfully.

Because if our folks don't feel heard, our folks don't feel seen or aren't reaching their potential, we are not going to effectively implement AI in our organizations, 'cause we're not gonna be hearing or seeing or getting the data that we need to make it successful. And then I think for leaders, I come back to this idea of gratitude and sort of personal recognition, not just for the work that someone is doing, but for, you know, who they are and how [00:50:00] they're helping us get to wherever we need to go.

I think that's one of the most powerful things we can do. It's free. We can do it tomorrow. Hopefully, we do it several times today, tomorrow, and then beyond.

Anne Green: Well, and it really makes your own life, both as a leader and as a human in the world, much richer and more glass half full. I mean, and, and I am in turn grateful for your time.

This is amazing.

David Grossman: I was gonna say the exact same to you.

Anne Green: Yeah, I love having the podcast to have conversations that I really feel matter, and this is a very important one. So David, thanks for your time, and congratulations on the success of the book so far.

David Grossman: Thank you. I'm, I'm been just thrilled by the reception and e- excited, and, and, you know, I'm, I'm hoping we can help leaders continue to build the skills that are needed, and that we can make the, you know, workplace better, and that we'll, we're all gonna feel g- you know, even better about what we do between 9:00 to 5:00 or 9:00 to 7:00 or what- whatever our sort of work days look like.

When... And we can do it together.

Anne Green: I agree. [00:51:00] Well, as always, we invite our listeners to share feedback. You know, hit us up on LinkedIn or by email. And there's been a lot of great episodes this season, so if you've missed some, be sure to check them out, and thanks again for listening to Building Brand Gravity.

[00:00:00]

Bradley Akubuiro: This cultural political divide that we've seen has just been in our faces every single day, and it shapes everything that we do. You almost can't have a conversation in this country without realizing that folks are on very, very different sides of almost every conversation. And so that really creates an application to how we communicate, not only with our customers, but frankly, even with our employees.

Steve Halsey: Welcome to Building Brand Gravity. I'm Steve Halsey.

Anne Green: And I'm Anne Green.

Steve Halsey: And today, Anne, we're talking crisis communications, which only makes sense given the insanity of today's operating environment for most organizations. And, you know, just thinking about all the factors that are in play right now, the interconnected nature of business in the world at large, the [00:01:00] speed that information travels, the ever-growing numbers of channels, changing expectations of stakeholders, polarizations in many countries and cultures.

Those are a few, but of course we can't forget our favorite, we can't do Building Brand Gravity without talking about the impact of AI. It's a lot to take on for even our most experienced leaders today.

Anne Green: Yeah, I agree, Steve. You know, I feel like it's never been a more important moment for leaders and organizations to reexamine what they know about managing through a crisis, and also to seek best practices that really meet this moment.

Um, happily, in a little while we're gonna have an expert joining the pod to help us think through this. I got to have, earlier this week, a truly excellent and wide-ranging discussion with Bradley Akabiro, who's a nationally recognized expert on corporate reputation and crisis communications. He's a partner at the agency Bully Pulpit International, which many may have heard of.

He's a friend of us, ours through the Page [00:02:00] Society, and Bradley is the author of a brand new book titled Faster, Messier, Tougher: Crisis Communication Strategies in an Era of Populism, AI, and Distrust. Super timely.

Steve Halsey: Very, very much so. Well, well, before we dive into your fascinating conversation with Bradley that, that our, our, our viewers are gonna absolutely love, I thought maybe we could start off by both sharing some observations on, on just the changing crisis and risk landscape, and the kind of advice that we're each giving our clients today, because I know it's a topic that you're actively engaged in and, and I seem to be more and more these days.

Anne Green: I think, um, the big thing I've been thinking about now is what it means to live your values as a corporation as well as a leader individually. And Bradley and I got right into this conversation The, the issue is a company cannot navigate a challenging situation effectively without knowing what [00:03:00] values are most central to their business, as well as which of them are most closely tied to their operational goals and really freedom to operate, you know?

And not all values are important, but not all of them are built the same depending on what the crisis is. And I, I think that this sounds easy, but it's, it's harder than, than just the surface of it, right? Everyone knows that companies should be rooted in their values and be crystal clear on what they stand for.

We hear that advice all the time, especially in this moment of polarization. But Steve, you and I have both seen too often, unfortunately, that the time and effort it takes to clarify that across senior leadership, then build understanding and buy-in across all operating units or geographies, and then to make it legible to staff no matter what their role, well, that level of work is often not pursued.

It takes consistency. It might be taken on partially, but it really needs consistency and depth. And especially in this environment when polarization makes [00:04:00] many organizations wanna kind of what keep their heads below the proverbial parapet, you know, sort of hide behind the hedge. So when a true crisis flies out of left field, unfortunately there's no time to backtrack and build this kind of foundation.

And the key is taking time to, as Bradley says, and I love this quote, "Know where you stand so you can then stand there." Simple words, but to me, very, very wise.

Steve Halsey: Yeah. I, I like that a lot, Anne, and, and, you know, really couldn't agree more. You know, so much of the hard work of crisis preparedness goes much deeper and wider than whatever plan is created.

You know, it's kind of like that concept we've been talking about of corporate narrative as your operating system. That really is truly fundamental because the best laid plan that sits on the shelf or somewhere in your hard drive is, is no good if it just doesn't become an innate part of how you, how you, uh, just work.

So here's kind of what I've been thinking about on the crisis [00:05:00] front. You know, one of the biggest shifts right now Is that in many cases, the large language models are really becoming the first responders in, in a crisis. And, you know, I've written about that in a, in a number of industry bylines because before the company issues a statement, before any journalist writes a story, basically before humans are actively involved in assessing what the heck is going on here, the large language models are already starting to synthesize what's happening, summarizing it, shaping, pulling from what's out there- Mm-hmm

to try and understand the situations the best they can. So that means that your reputation isn't just what you say at the moment. It's really that system that you have in place and what that says about you, because that's what's being pulled into the large language model, and it really raises the bar for preparation.

Um, and we're seeing this right now in, uh, one of the crisis situations we're, we're [00:06:00] consulting on right now, because the reality is, if your narrative isn't clear, consistent, well-distributed across your digital footprint already, AI's gonna fill in the gaps. And this is really important. If you don't audit and you leave that old information out there, guess what's gonna be found?

Guess what's gonna be up there in the AI summary? It's gonna be that older information that's gonna be referenced. And unfortunately, once that initial interpretation takes hold, as you know, it's very, very hard to unwind, to move that needle. So, so increasingly, we're advising clients to really think about crisis readiness, not just in terms of that response when something happens, but what is that pre-response that you wanna think about and get out there ahead of time?

And so it really comes down to, um, really what I'd call a four-step checklist that I'm giving clients right now, which is number one, [00:07:00] are you clear on your core narrative and as you said, the values, and are they consistently expressed and findable? 'Cause if you have values but you don't make them findable, it becomes really difficult to believe that you're truly living those every day.

Number two, do you have credible, high-quality content that really reinforces that narrative across trusted channels? Number three, and this is important, are your executives and subject matters experts visible in everyday communication, and is that visibility aligned with what you wanna be communicated about your values?

And then finally, do all these signals connect in a way that becomes easy, not just for people, but for the machines to interpret? Because in this environment, if you haven't shaped the narrative, it's gonna be shaped for you.

Anne Green: I couldn't agree. I co-sign on all of that, Steve. I think those fundamentals are excellent, those checklist.

I know we're actually, you know, working on it [00:08:00] for ourselves. We, we have to turn this skill set to ourselves as a group and as our two agencies, and we're working with many of our clients on these questions. And I think we also, you, I, and many others need to keep evangelizing regarding what is required here.

I think Bradley is absolutely doing the same. So, and you know, this whole conversation also reminds me of the discussion around confidence and trust in business that you had on an earlier episode of the podcast, and that was focused on the Page and Harris Poll, um, Confidence in Business Index. So if folks haven't listened to that one yet, I also highly recommend it.

Steve Halsey: Yep, lots of points of connection here, but I think we ought to get to your conversation with Bradley, Anne.

Anne Green: I'm so happy to welcome Bradley Acabura to this podcast. Hey, Bradley. How are you? Hey,

Bradley Akubuiro: Anne. How you doing?

Anne Green: I'm good. I'm good. I'm here on the occasion talking to you about your book- Wow ... which I have here.

I love the artifact. And as we discussed, the title is not just printed here, it's printed here. Yes. So [00:09:00] kudos to you for insisting on that, because those jacket, dust jacket removers like me, the branding has to be right, Bradley, right?

Bradley Akubuiro: I, well, I, I love that you and I have the same mentality on this.

Anne Green: Yeah, when I took it off, I was like, "That's so smart.

Everyone should do that." Anyway, I'm thrilled to have you. Congratulations on the book. How does it feel to have it out there in the world? It feels

Bradley Akubuiro: great. It feels great. I mean, I think, you know, the way that the world feels right now can be a little chaotic. It was a little chaotic trying to work through this book.

In some ways it was cathartic, though, uh, because I was able to make sense of what I was seeing and feeling. Uh, but now having it out has just sparked so many great discussions, and I'm having a great time with it.

Anne Green: That's awesome. So I'm gonna get a little bit into your introduction, but I'm, I'm trying to make sure that I follow good communications principles.

So I'm trying to start each interview now by asking my guest to tell our listeners what to listen for, as we have a pretty wide-ranging discussion. And by the way, [00:10:00] you know, we had a prep call. We could talk about a million things for hours. There's so much in the book, and just in general. But what are the couple of things you want listeners to be really listening for as we get into this conversation?

Bradley Akubuiro: Yeah, I had someone actually stop me and ask me, you know, to explain this book in, in 20 words or less. Um, and I think I probably got right on the line and, and the way that I describe this is you can no longer please everyone, and in fact, you are going to upset many people with almost any decision that you make.

So you have to identify the people that matter the most to what you're trying to accomplish, and then get tough about tuning out the noise. So- That's great ... yeah, I, I, I will say that when you go through this book, you will find many different stories. You will have lots of different elements, particularly kinda conversations around polarization and, and populism, uh, around the advent of AI and what that's meant as a disruptor and an enabler.

You will find so [00:11:00] many conversations around how to really narrow your audience. Um, at the end of the day, what I hope people take away is that we actually need to be comfortable in the discomfort of the moment that we're in, and we've gotta push through, because the things we need to accomplish don't change because the environment has.

Anne Green: I think that's so well said. And, and just for those who don't have the book in hand, Faster, Messier, Tougher: Crisis Communication Strategies in an Era of Populism, AI, and Distrust. So, you know, I wanna backtrack now to you've had a really diverse career. You're right now a partner at Bully Pulpit International and an expert in corporate comms, and I'm looking at your dust jacket here.

But you've been on the corporate side at Boeing and what used to be called United Technologies, UTC. You've worked, um, with Reverend Jesse Jackson Sr., which I am sure was quite an extraordinary experience. You've counseled all kinds of folks as a consultant, including world governments. And to me, um, that career is quite rich, and it means that [00:12:00] you have a lens that's really more like a prism, right?

So you got a lot of facets there. You can turn it and turn it and see a different surface. And I assume that brings you a lot of different perspectives. As you think about the evolution of corporate comms and crisis, how has that prism of a career, if that resonates for you, informed, um, what you're thinking about in terms of crisis today?

Bradley Akubuiro: It, it does resonate, Anna. Actually, I think it's one of the best ways that you could capture that concept. You know, I've had a lot of different perspectives that have influenced the way that I see the world, um, and it's been extraordinarily helpful. You know, I, I talk in this book a little bit about a episode actually at United Technologies where we were, uh, our CEO was on the American Manufacturing Council, uh, that was led by the White House during the first Trump administration.

Um, and I talk about kind of the race to figure out what we would do, um, when, uh, Charlottesville, when the episode in Charlottesville happened, uh, [00:13:00] and every company was trying to figure out, do you continue to engage with this council or do you not? And one of the stories that's in this book is about this small group of, uh, communications leaders that kinda came together, myself included, um, and others at a few different companies that were also trying to figure this out in real time.

And I will say the perspective of having a political background, having a communications, particularly corporate reputation background, um, the real kind of employee insights, um, and the real advocacy, uh, lens that I was bringing to the conversation, uh, was extraordinarily helpful in a moment where the world was being turned upside down.

Uh, the things that we were dealing with in that moment to make the decision, uh, were so much more than how is this gonna look on the front page of the news tomorrow. And I think being able to bring those perspectives to bear when you're thinking through how do we navigate these true trust-related, uh, issues is so important, and I think it's only gonna become more important as we start [00:14:00] walking further and further into this, um, disputed trust kinda society.

Anne Green: I love that story because it's also a story about finding community in your peers. Um, you and I met through a community like that, Page, and, and through other venues and, um, in this kind of volatile environment, and that certainly was an example of that. I remember that time well, and it was very interesting to see the kind of stories you share in the book, and that one especially with Charlottesville.

And I remember that whole story about these councils and who's gonna say what, and I can-- You talk in there about the pressure for media to respond, to respond, to respond, and I love the fact that, you know, you were able to tap into others who were in a similar situation. Not everyone made the same decision.

As, as you say in the book, not every company went the same route. But you were able to kinda tap into that, um, that brain trust. But why this book and why now? You know, there's, there's, there's all, uh, the, the world has been plenty interesting [00:15:00] for a while now, but what made you feel compelled to write this to, you know, at this time?

Bradley Akubuiro: Yeah. Well, a few things. I think the world has been interesting for quite some time now. I think the pace of change that we're seeing in the world has accelerated so dramatically over the last few years that it almost felt like it was time you had to put a marker in the ground and say, "Here's what we've seen over the last few years that has brought us to this point, and here is how we have to operate differently, uh, to be able to engage, uh, and frankly, survive in the crisis of today."

And so one of the big factors around this was the acceleration we saw around COVID. Um, there were a few things that changed pretty dramatically, but that include some of the gaps that are created around common fault lines, uh, that are really, really important for us to pay attention to. The economic divide has only widened, and the s- disparity between haves and have-nots has grown as a result.

Uh, we have seen just an absolute, um, expansion of the technological divide with the advent of, of AI in the form that [00:16:00] it's at today and the accessibility that it's at, and the ability to create, uh, credible disinformation with the speed and scale with which we can today, um, has absolutely exploded. Uh, this cultural political divide that we've seen has just been in our faces every single day, and it shapes everything that we do.

You almost can't have a conversation in this country, uh, without realizing that folks are on very, very different sides of almost every conversation. And so that really creates an application to how we communicate, not only with our customers, which I think consumer companies, uh, have been feeling for some time, but frankly, even with our employees, um, our regulus- uh, regulators and policymakers, um, and with our stakeholders across the board.

Uh, and so for us to really pay attention to these things is so important, and how people get information in this information divide is, is really critical. You know, um, nearly half of people under the age of 30 in this country are receiving [00:17:00] their information, uh, from social media. Um, you know, when you start to think about just the sources of information, they're so different, and that's before you even get into the lenses that are put on this information, uh, when people do receive it.

Uh, and so I know you mentioned the institutional trust piece. That divide has only int- increased as well. I think we have seen a decline in institutional trust for quite some time. Um, what we have seen is a precipitous drop-off over the last couple of years. And so why now? I think because the world is a different world than we operated in before COVID, and I think the moment that we have right now is gonna determine who are the brands and who are the leaders that are able to champion a future, um, that is, uh, unfortunately, in this faster, uh, messier, and tougher world, uh, really able to kind of put together, um, a, a regime that allows them to be successful.

Um, and it requires different actions from each of us.

Anne Green: Yeah, and there's, there's so much to [00:18:00] unpack here. I'm, I'm excited. I know other leaders in our space listening to this have 17 ways they would want me to go right now. But the first thing I'd love to do, because this really caught my attention, is, um, Bradley, what is a crisis?

We all think we know what the word is, but I feel like in crisis communications, the very first thing we have to do is figure that out, and I'll tell you a very quick story, and then I, I want you to answer the question. I remember years ago, remember the Domino's food tampering video from years ago where there were employees putting cheese up their nose and very unsavory things, right?

And Domino's really came down like wrath of God. You know, they found the employees, they fired them. The CEO did a video, and there was like... They did a lot. And I remember hearing the Domino's marketing chief, I've told this story like 1,000 times to colleagues. I remember hearing them speak at an event, might've been Association of National Advertisers or, or something else, and, and his quote was, "We didn't know if we were putting out a candle with a fire hose."[00:19:00]

And that to me is, I just can't get over how apt that is. So in the context of that story and in the context of your book, what is a crisis and why does it matter that we can interpret whether it is or not?

Bradley Akubuiro: Yeah. Well, look, I think that's such a really, really great, uh, way of thinking about this because it's so hard to know, uh, particularly in the initial moments.

Um, I, I wanna come back to how you can figure out in a second, but to define your, your, your question around what crisis is, it is something that impacts your license to operate or your ability to operate, and usually within a strict near-term time period, right? If this thing goes wrong, this thing blows up, is it going to keep me from being able to operate within the next 90 days?

Um, and I typically put it into a few camps. You know, does it invite, uh, policy or regulatory scrutiny in a meaningful, disruptive way? Does it impact your market or commercial, uh, commercial, uh, [00:20:00] context? Uh, or does it impact your employees' ability to get their job done? Uh, and so if you think about it from one of those perspectives and it doesn't do one of those things, I think there is a large onus on you to figure out whether there is an engagement that is required at the level that you're describing with Domino's.

Um, but if it has the ability to do one of those things, it really is incumbent upon us to move swiftly and decisively to shut it down.

Anne Green: Yeah, that's a great answer, and I know you distinguish between that and things that are an issue, and there are many, many issues. I mean, the, the arrange and diverse array of issues, the issues landscape, as people might say, is huge.

But it was helpful to me in reading the book of really asking myself and interrogating again, what is, um, both the quantitative and qualitative, uh, ways I assess what is truly moving into a crisis? And h- and, and it's, it's obviously moves back and forth. You know, it can evolve from an issue to a crisis.

Bradley Akubuiro: That's exactly right. And it is worth noting, I mean, as you're [00:21:00] trying to figure out what are the things that have the likelihood of being able to do that, it's so important to take stock of what your vulnerabilities are. You know, we all have them, both as organizations and as individuals, and the key is not to, to become perfect.

It's not possible to become perfect, right? But we have to understand where those vulnerabilities exist and then figure out what are the things that I need to do, A, to inoculate against them, but B, when a, uh, what is a critical action is taken against your organization, whether it is true or it is false or it is self-inflicted, um, to determine whether this is gonna become a crisis or not.

Typically speaking, the things that fall into an area of vulnerability for you, um, those direct hits, those have the tendency to become not only crises, but often very fast-moving, um, and have some virality to them. Uh, those that strike you in places where you're strong are less likely to become that. And so we really have to take really true stock [00:22:00] of, of who we are, uh, and, and where we have those vulnerabilities to understand, you know, where is the damage likely to be done.

Anne Green: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. You know, I-- when you and I were preparing for this, I was thinking about the landscape today and, and I've been watching obviously these lawsuits regarding social media, the infinite scroll, and, and that phrase came back to me, the infinite scroll of crisis or the infinite scroll of issues, and it feels like that, and it's not just social media feeds anymore.

And you know, I, I think that one of the learnings that jumped out to me, 'cause I absolutely... I mean, we do in media training, we say, "Know what is not your story." You phrased it not, I have the notes here, "Not every crisis that impacts you is your cross to bear or your thing to carry." You talk about the trap here for, um- For comms folks and their leaders, I mean, I think it's very easy to get caught up, right?

Bradley Akubuiro: It's so easy. It's extremely easy to get caught up. Um, and I will say there, there are, you know, maybe two stories that I would tell about this, and, and one [00:23:00] I think, um, is, uh, apropos to kind of some of the United Technology stuff we were talking about a minute ago. Um, we had a, uh, very powerful senator. The book is, uh, uh, quick to art- articulate kind of a little bit more detail on this, but I hope you'll read it.

Uh, the, uh, uh, senator had called out the company from the Senate floor in a floor speech. Uh, and instantly, as you can imagine, every leader in, in the company was like, "Hey, we gotta do something about this." Uh, and the reality is when we actually looked at the data, um, in that particular instance, uh, in that particular format, uh, there was a huge spike in terms of conversation around it that lasted probably about 15 minutes, and then it dropped off.

And we did not actually have any more engagement almost at all, um, from those who were within kind of the target orbit of stakeholders we had to care about in the Beltway in that moment. Uh, and so had we [00:24:00] leaned in and had a statement or tried to correct the record or do something meaningful in that moment in response, not only would we not have helped the situation, but we would've actually added fuel to the fire and created a news cycle where there was none.

Uh, and so it's so important to understand, it doesn't mean you don't have any engagement. Of course, we wanted to work with the senator's office and, and do these things behind the scenes. But when you're thinking about what engagement is required, you wanna match it to the level of risk that is posed by the action in front of you.

Um, and so, you know, I, I, I, I will say in context of today, almost every company that's moving products is impacted by the shutdown of the Strait of Hormuz. Um, I, I wrote this article for the, uh, Economic Times of India, uh, about 10 days ago or so, um, or I shouldn't say 10 days ago 'cause we're gonna do this later, so let me take a step back on this.

I wrote this article for the Economic Times of India recently that talked about the challenge that a lot of companies are [00:25:00] facing, which is your ability to move products around the world is impacted significantly by a war that's going on in a region that you may not operate in, you may not have employees in, you may not actually have any engagement that's direct in, and yet your supply chain, your ability to logistically move your products around the world has been impacted significantly.

And so you have a question that you have to answer internally, is this something that I need to communicate around? And the answer may be yes to some stakeholders. They may wanna understand why your prices have increased. They may wanna understand why delivery windows have increased. They may wanna understand what are you doing to create additional sources, um, so that you are not, uh, having so much exposure, uh, in this instance.

Uh, and you have to decide what you're gonna communicate and when you're gonna communicate, or if you are gonna communicate at all. You know, reporters will often reach out to a bunch of companies and say, "How is this [00:26:00] impacting you?" And the fact that they've reached out to you, and the fact that there are impacts, does not mean that it's your story to own and that you need to have something to say about it.

But the important thing is really understanding what is your level of exposure, and which of your stakeholders are gonna care significantly about hearing from you. And if the best way to reach them is individually, do that, but if the best way to reach them in a meaningful, uh, and, and kind of trust-building, uh, uh, way is to do something that's a little bit more public, then consider your options for that.

But you have to weigh them, frankly, on a case-by-case basis with these types of issues.

Anne Green: I, I love the way you're looking at this discussion, because I think you and I have both seen, and, you know, I'm not a rocks in glass houses person. I know how difficult it is to operate. I've, you know, hundreds and hundreds of clients like you have in, in every different kind of situation.

But I think it-- there's so many crisis plans out there where they're a RACI, you know, who's responsible, who's accountable. There are risk grading, you know, [00:27:00] frameworks. Um, all of the tools are there, all the players, and yet what really happens in the moment in a very qualitative and human way when you get into the idea of risk grading, and where does it, the bias of that sort of, you know, body feeling of com- getting attacked, you know, each individual and the, the leadership, like what it feels in your mind and body, and the anxiety it creates to be attacked, and how responsive you are to that.

And I feel like a lot of that discipline either hasn't been practiced to the depth it needs to and really unpacked, like really unpacked. What does it mean to grade risk? What does it mean to understand that there are issues coming at us, but not all of them are commensurate? And when does our best quantitative and qualitative data and best practices tell us that reacting will help, you know, mitigate or reacting will actually amplify?

I mean, these things are just not really practiced and discussed at the depth. And I see you smiling 'cause I know you're on the same [00:28:00] page. But I, I, I hope that this is a clarion call, you know, to folks who engage with your book to think about how nuanced these things are, right?

Bradley Akubuiro: Yeah. Well, I, I hope so too.

You know, the reality is it is extremely difficult to do these things. Um, and so, you know, to your point on, on rocks and glass houses, we all have to have a little bit of grace, um, not only within our own organizations, but for others. Uh, that said, there are ways that we can get really sharp at doing these things and, and frankly, the number one way is to practice it.

Um, you have to put the scenarios together where you feel, hey, if this happens, it's gonna be a real issue for us. A lot of these scenarios are knowable, not all of them. A lot of them are knowable, though. And so to really put people in these simulations, recreate the stress, I specifically encourage people to, to take the tone that you would take in a real crisis, because we know we can be very, very polite in simulations, and in the moment it doesn't feel that way in the [00:29:00] room.

And so let's actually kind of put on the, the, the mask and do it the way that we would do it, because you'll need to if you wanna be able to break the s- the, the thing before, uh, the moment comes where you have to.

Anne Green: Yeah, I wrote a piece a number of years ago about that famous quote from the, the CEO of BP at the time with the Gulf, you know, um, the, the well, you know, that was polluting the Gulf.

And, and he said, "No one wants my life back more than me." And that, that's maybe not exactly the comment. He was just ripped apart and all the comms leaders were like, "How could you do that?" And I wrote a piece about the fact of we need to pay attention, and I'm not saying it was great, it's not great, but that was a real human reaction.

And what you need to do as a senior comms leader is to understand that emotional and psychological aspects of your leader and yourself and what happens under pressure. So that, that's just me really co-signing. There, there is that deeply human aspect to this, and before we again throw those rocks, we have to say, "Wow, that was a really honest reaction.

Not [00:30:00] optimal, but, but very real, so what do we do about that?"

Bradley Akubuiro: You know, I teach these classes, uh, for executive education classes amongst others, uh, over at Northwestern University. And, and one of the things that I do on a regular basis is ask communications leaders who come in to take these classes to actually sit in the hot seat.

Um, we ask them to actually get in a studio that's a fully operational studio and sit behind the desk, uh, with a broadcast anchor, whether that's myself or, or an actual, you know, person in the broadcast media orbit now, and we grill them. We ask them the tough questions after we've had that, you know, opportunity to put the scenarios together.

And they usually don't see it coming 'cause they're expecting somebody else to come in and do it. But asking them to sit there and do this, I will tell you, to a person, the feedback is always, "I am so glad I had the opportunity to see what it feels like with the lights in my eyes and the grilling questions coming, because the thing that I said is not at all what I thought I [00:31:00] would've said.

And of course, if I was sitting on, you know, the other side of the desk, I'd say, 'How could that person say that?' Well, now I know." Um, and I think it's just so important for us to understand what it feels like, to your point, to sit in those seats as we're counseling people. Um, and that knowledge, I think, makes us better communicators and better leaders.

Anne Green: Yeah, and Troy, you know, in my role as a, as CEO of our firm and a spokesperson, but also a, a trainer, um, and a coach, I love taking my own medicine, and I try to tell people that I do. So I wanna go to an area that, to me, I've been thinking about for a number of years, and, and you brought up some very-- I'm looking at my notes here.

The idea of unprovable truth, that we're in this place. I remember saying to colleagues years ago, if we're in a pro- post-truth situation here where we're gonna interpret it, confirmation bias, whatever is convenient, and also it w- that was even well before the channel, you know, algorithmic issue where people are only seeing...

It's like we're in alternate realities. [00:32:00] You know, how do we do our job as communicators that we usually use fact and to shape perception? But the unprovable truth to me got even more interesting when you talked about building trust. It's obviously foundational for organizations. But you had a couple quotes here, "Trust is the real moat," and that, "Truth and trust are different currencies.

In crisis, facts are important, but trust is king." I think this really gets at the heart of what we're struggling with as leaders, as communications professionals, and also broader in society. Tell me what that means, that truth and trust are different currencies.

Bradley Akubuiro: Yeah. When I think about truth, I think about kind of the concepts of, of facts and what's, you know, reality from your perspective and, and, you know, facts win arguments, but trust actually wins you the benefit of the doubt, and the benefit of the doubt is actually what saves you in situations where the story moves faster than the facts, right?

And I think [00:33:00] we're in a moment right now where so many times the truth is something that we are searching for, we are seeking it out, we are going to our, if we're a manufacturing company, going to our engineering teams and trying to understand what went wrong where, how do we identify what the root cause is.

And all of those things are extremely important, and our stakeholders expect us to get to them. But what they need to know even before they know that is that you have the situation under control, and they can trust you to manage through it. If you can't convince them of that, then you fail way before you get to the root cause, right?

And what I think is really important, and you alluded to this even in the question, is, you know, studies show that about 70% of Americans are only consuming news sources that reaffirm their own worldview. And so if you're now trying to figure out what are the ways that I can talk to somebody to meet them where they're at, it isn't gonna be by winning the argument through facts.

It is gonna be about actually talking to them in terms that they can [00:34:00] understand, um, and that they will be able to say, "All right, this person gets how I see the world enough so that I'm willing to hear them out." And that ability to have a conversation with people is something that I think is becoming more and more of a lost art form.

But it's not only true for us as individuals as we're engaging in our lives, it is true for businesses and organizations writ large that need to figure out how to communicate with a populace that is so divided, and frankly, more divided than it's been at any other time in our contemporary history.

Anne Green: It's so helpful to tease these apart because I do think those of us who've been in this field a long time, or even younger folks too, client side, agency side, whatever, there's this deep feeling of, "This is a fact.

This book is solid. Look, it's real. You know, this is, this is a real thing. Why aren't you listening to me?" And, and we've all now very, very much understood the polarization of channels, the impact of algorithms. I th- I, I believe social media, AI too, it's the best and worst of us. Humans [00:35:00] create it. It's-- I always joke it's utopia, garbage fire, and everything in between.

So just because It's social media and the algorithm doesn't mean it's all bad, but I think we are seeing the impact of it. Um, AI is gonna make that worse, as you've said. It's, AI is going to be incredible in so many ways, and I'm dealing with this with my own staff and with our clients, and we as a society, that mental load of AI, dealing with both the amazing opportunity and the really dark stuff.

As we're recording this podcast, we're seeing growing evidence of just a lot of negativity in the populace as a whole, and we have a lot of understandings of probably where that came from. The narratives out there are rough. But I do wanna build on this polarization question, because we're gonna put these pieces together, which is interpreting a crisis, interpreting our vulnerabilities, knowing what is critical for you to operate in a s- in a situation that's highly polarized and where people may or may not be accepting a truth, and you have to build trust.

So, [00:36:00] you know, no big deal, Bradley, you're gonna solve this for me right now. But you said at one point, "Conviction pays. Waffling costs everything." And another quote, "People can accept disagreeing with you, but they never accept hypocrisy." So talk a little bit about that, 'cause I think it goes to this question of knowing your values and, and standing in them, but I, I think that's very hard today for organizations.

Bradley Akubuiro: It's extremely hard for organizations. It's extremely hard for people. Um, you know, you and I both appreciate kind of the human psychological elements of the craft, right? And I think it's so important for people to continue to use that as a foundation as they think through so much of this, because, you know, that, that whole point on hypocrisy, I think, is really about human nature.

You know, people actually do find that those who they disagree with, they may trust more, um, because they know that you are solid in your conviction. I, I say this to people all the time, but you actually have to figure out where you stand and then actually stand there. [00:37:00] And the reason for that is because when people see you do that on a regular basis, then they know what to expect from you.

They may not always like it, but they know what to expect from you, and there's a level of respect that comes from that that doesn't exist with people who think you're gonna say whatever you need to say in order to win their vote or to win their, um, uh, appeal. And so I think that's really, really critical in this moment when people end up on so many different sides of these issues.

Um, whatever the issue may be and whatever side they choose, they want to know that you are a person or an organization that's gonna stand by what you say, and that your actions and your words are gonna be aligned, and they're gonna be aligned over time. And so, you know, I, I, you know, you can point to so many different examples, uh, of where this has been true.

I think a great example is Target. You know, we have seen an organization that was known for bringing Black-owned brands into their stores and giving them spaces on shelves, you know, having real strong support for LGBTQ audiences, [00:38:00] um, and found, you know- a rough spot, a hard moment, uh, in the new administration, uh, towards the beginning of 2025, where they scaled back some of their diversity, equity, inclusion policies.

Now, I don't think that the act of scaling it back as a retailer itself was the issue. There were several other organizations that did this at the same time. But it was the fact that people had known them for being an organization that supported those communities where it felt more like a betrayal. And so what I think organizations can take away from that, and, and if you look just, you know, to say it out loud, you know, about $12 billion of lost value later, what you can take away from that is that people will watch what you do more than they watch what you say.

And so when you are a communicator in these rooms and you're telling the business case, uh, for what is a, a, a really difficult decision to stand in your conviction, uh, you do have, [00:39:00] uh, precedent on your side. Organizations that have waffled in these moments are taking massive losses, are experiencing boycotts, are having talent flood out the doors because they can't tell whether leadership is actually aligned with the values that they hold dear.

Uh, and the organizations that are more consistent in those values, whether they are, you know, the Hobby Lobbies or the Chick-fil-As of the world, or the, you know, Patagonias or the Ben & Jerry's of the world or everything in between, those who are consistent and people can read are able to say, "You know what?

This is a place that I can trust." And we come back to that trust question all the time. Um, I would take it one step further and talk about it in terms of resiliency. These are the organizations and the brands that are the most resilient to these changing times because they're the ones that have created, um, a level of, of, of, uh, conviction, um, that builds, uh, that resilience, uh, even when the odds are stacked against you.

Anne Green: Yeah, my colleague Steve Halsey, and we've talked about this a few times on the podcast, the idea [00:40:00] of corporate narrative as an operating system. And we talk about that consistency and not like the little N of narrative, like here's a messaging document, but the big N, that narrative that it's why we operate, it's what we're serving, it's what our values are, it's the whole piece.

I wanna hold on the DEI question, diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, all the different aspects of it, because I think it's a particularly interesting and painful case right now. You know, I want to acknowledge that oftentimes in the past years, as heartening as it was to see these concepts, and I, I think of them as a set of principles and practices, a lens through which we look, but also a way we open the aperture and bring more people in, right?

You know, I think it's often seen as a negative somehow or, or subtractive to people. But it, it's an interesting thing right now because, um, I acknowledge that many companies were not very precise or clear about what they meant by these and, um- When these types of bigger things, whether it's [00:41:00] ESG, DEI, AI, acronyms are, um, just sort of folded into these, like, very flat acronyms, and they're not defined well, and they're sort of applied to things.

It's very easy for it to fall apart. But right now, I think what we're observing, and you've, you've said it really eloquently, is that this is a good case history in where the polarization is really making companies, the way I think about it, is kind of hiding behind the hedge or behind the parapet and sort of keeping their heads down.

And yet there are real consequences to that, and I think it's a good way of examining. We always say to companies and we say to each other, "Hey, you have to know your values and stand in your values." But how do companies do that when it is difficult to do? Um, you know, how do companies overcome their fr- current fear of attacks, say around, you know, something that's been demonized like DEI when their values will tell them that there's aspects of their stakeholders or operations that are, are really material there and real?

I mean, what's, what's your thought about that, [00:42:00] Bradley?

Bradley Akubuiro: Um, there are two ways I can answer this question. Um, I, I think I'm gonna start with the more mechanical answer, uh, and I'll, and I'll go into kind of maybe a, a slightly broader, uh, response that's a bit more philosophical. But, you know, on the mechanical side, I usually use a chart that I think is very instructive.

It's got, you know, uh, the two axes and, and on one axis is alignment, you know, to your strategy, right? Your alignment. And, and two is impact and what you might consider to be interest. And so, you know, traditionally something that's in the top right quadrant on this scale is something that is high alignment to your brand and also, uh, of, of great interest to others.

And the reason why that's a really interesting camp to be in is if you are a company that is, for example, a, a, an aerospace company, uh, and your airliners are looking for lower fuel burn reduction, one, because, you know, the cost implications are pretty significant, particularly in the moment we're [00:43:00] in. Uh, but, uh, also because many of their customers are requesting cleaner air travel in this moment, um, you're gonna continue to talk about sustainability, and it might be a contested subject in some political circles, but it's not gonna be for you because your customer really needs it, and there's a lot of interest in that moment in that space.

And so it has high alignment to your organizational strategy, and so you should be very loud about that. That's a really easy way for you to be able to conceptualize it. Um, whereas for another organization in another industry, that may not be true, and so you may not wanna talk as loudly about it. When we go specifically to the question of diversity, equity, and inclusion, you know, I have traditionally advised people, you know, if this is a value that you have always kind of espoused, you should put it in that top right category, and you should talk about it loudly.

In this particular moment, there are organizations that I've suggested, "Hey, think [00:44:00] about whether you pull that down one quadrant and say, 'We are still going to do these actions,' and you are still going to engage around them because they still have high alignment with your values." But because the interest actually poses more of a risk than an opportunity in this environment, there are times where you should do those things, but do them quietly.

And it goes back into what you were saying and, and we were discussing just a minute ago, which is you need the consistency, uh, of action in order to reinforce the conviction. However, you don't have to shout all of these things from the mountaintops at all times, because putting yourself in that level of risk may actually harm your license to do the thing that you wanna do most.

And so if it's gonna impact your license to operate, what we talked about right from the beginning, you may create a crisis for yourself in a moment where you actually really just wanna be doing the work. And that consistency is what's gonna give people the ability to go back and check your track record on it.

That's the thing you need most. So make sure that it's accessible, but [00:45:00] decide on the volume.

Anne Green: Yeah. I think that's great advice. I like both those, and I love that framework that you shared. Um, we need these simple rubrics just to help us think through things that can feel very subjective and opaque at times.

And, you know, it's like even recently, the idea of standing where you're standing, like know where you stand and then stand there, which I love. I love that phrase. It's a good kind of let, let's bring us back to the center here. You think about something like the Super Bowl halftime show and Bad Bunny that was just recent that-- in our memory.

A lot of noise around that, a lot of polarization, a lot of folks, and also may I say bots and foreign actors trying to capitalize. We are really being gamed in our society right now. There is, I think, not enough awareness of how much of the social media traffic we see that is not human, that is either advertising driven or other actors seeking to divide us.

So I always remind myself of that. You know, it's very hard to get people [00:46:00] focused on this. But there is a lot of pressure on the NFL to, um, to do something, say something and, and it was interesting, you and I both had the chance to hear from the NFL at a recent conference we attended. The head of marketing, very impressive individual, but also very clear on they knew who their audiences were, the Spanish-speaking world, that diaspora is very critical.

The-- he didn't talk about it, but relationships with Roc Nation, with Apple, um, the nature of, of who Bad Bunny is and, and just the stardom and all of those things. It was really interesting to watch that in live time, and the NFL basically kind of saying, "I'm not engaging with this. I'm not engaging with this," even though the pressure, I'm sure there was a lot of anxiety around it.

I mean, I don't know. Uh, is that, is that a good example of some of what we're talking today, about today?

Bradley Akubuiro: Is 1,000% a good example. Um, I, I've worked with the NFL now for about four years or so, um, and almost all around questions of, of diversity, um, equity and inclusion, [00:47:00] and social impact. And so as I've continued to work with them and seen how they operate, one of the things that I really, really respect about them is that they follow the data.

Um, they know that, one, it is a massive growth market for them, uh, in Latin America, and so they really want to be able to say, "All right, we are engaging in ways that are inclusive for that community that we're trying to grow with." Uh, but number two, they also understand this concept we're talking about, uh, when it comes to conviction, right?

The, uh, worst thing that you can do when you're trying to bring new people into the table is say, "We are only next to you when it's convenient," right? Um, you have to either be all in or all out when it comes to these things. And so they said, um, "This is a community we want to work with and be with, uh, and, and we're gonna support them if we're gonna ask them to support us."

And I think that the activities reflected that. And so I think there's a lot that we can all learn, and it really is the concept of tougher in this, you know, faster, messier, tougher piece. You know, not everything is [00:48:00] always gonna be clean or easy, and yes, you're gonna see some backlash, some of it human, some of it not, and we should talk about that piece of it in a second.

Uh, but one way or another, you have to actually have the resolve, uh, to stand by those things even when they're difficult, um, if they reinforce your strategy and your value set.

Anne Green: Yeah, absolutely. I know we're gonna start wrapping up soon. We haven't really talked at all about employees as one of those critical stakeholders.

To me, really they're the number one stakeholder. Um, the idea of how you create that sense of authenticity and trust in leadership. They're gonna look at things you do too and wonder, is this consistent or not? Is there anything you wanted to just say at a high level about employees as a stakeholder in this context before we sort of start to wrap up today?

Bradley Akubuiro: Yeah, I, I would. I would say employees have the ability to either be your greatest ambassadors or your most credible detractors. Uh, and so how you engage with employees has to be not only thoughtful, but you [00:49:00] really have to prioritize them right at the top of your stakeholder set, because nothing happens in your business without them, right?

And so I think about when we were at Boeing, for example, we had about 70,000 employees that were in Washington State, and e- uh, even though, uh, you know, many of the conversations we needed to have were with regulators, with, with customers, uh, were with others, and so we had to think about external communications, uh, very, very seriously.

Figuring out how do we actually engage- With our employees that are on the ground where we were making these planes, uh, was really important, and we didn't leave that just to internal channels. We actually communicated through The Seattle Times, uh, and through others to reach our own employee base because we needed them to hear it.

They need- th- they needed to hear it from us, uh, and maybe most importantly, they needed to hear it through a channel that they knew had credibility, right? A, a reporter, particularly Dominic Yates, Dominic Gates in this case, who was a Pulitzer Prize-winning, uh, [00:50:00] reporter for The Seattle Times, uh, is not going to filter, um, you know, our story in a way that's gonna be favorable to us if it doesn't reflect reality.

Uh, and he's well-sourced, and so when he wrote an article, um, and we were engaged in it, our employees knew that we meant what we were saying. And so you have to find ways that are not only gonna reach your employees, but are gonna help them understand what you really mean in the things that you say.

Anne Green: Yeah, I always think about that drop that falls in the pond and the rings start to radiate outwards. That first one is the employees. And you know, when I started in the field almost, oh God, 33, 34 years ago, it was like internal comms, external comms. Never the twain shall meet, and it was a different media environment.

But also there was, um, an implicit devaluing of internal comms as if it wasn't as sexy or important as external, and I could not be happier that the vast majority of practitioners out there are so far past that point of view now. And I love it. The book is filled with great nuggets like that, like the idea of how are you [00:51:00] using a reporter who might be a voice of critique, but also is trusted.

And you said earlier, you know, sometimes it's those who might be critical that where you can build that trusting relationship. So I think that is so powerful. And I know another thing we talked about when we were preparing for this discussion is it goes so much beyond employee engagement. It really is, again, that license to operate and the enrollment that you have of people in that longer term vision, and how you're by their side and they're by your side when things are harder.

It's never gonna be 100%. You can't please all the people all the time, right?

Bradley Akubuiro: Can't do it. Can't do it. Yeah. That's exactly right.

Anne Green: Yeah. So just to summarize, I mean, again, we could talk forever. I love it, really enjoyed the book. Um, so much good stuff in here. I asked you to start by telling people what to listen for.

So what at the end here are a couple of takeaways or actions that you really wanna encourage? We have a wide range of listeners to take on.

Bradley Akubuiro: Yeah. Well, I'd say in moments of [00:52:00] crisis, which we operate in so much more, uh, than we have in the past, uh, in this particular moment as the world continues to change, a, a few things remain true.

Um, one Speed beats polish, right? Spend the time preparing your organization to move quickly in these moments, and don't always worry about having the perfect answer. Sometimes just moving quickly and saying something that is credible is gonna build the trust you need to give you license to continue in that conversation.

Two, it's really difficult to be neutral in a pressure test. Uh, even saying nothing is equivalent to saying something. And so we've got to figure out where we stand, and we've got to actually stand there. Um, and then I would say number three is just get absolutely ruthless about understanding who your true stakeholders are and being able to understand what they expect from you, both because you've said it in the past as a value of yours, something that is in line with your strategy, and because it's what they [00:53:00] expect of you, um, as a leader, as an actor, um, and, and really try to shape, uh, how you talk about your brand, about your products, about your communities, about your people in terms that are in line with that stakeholder set.

And as we encounter noise, don't let it slow you down. There are times where we've got to get tough and be able to shut that out in order to achieve the goals that we have with a very, very targeted group. And so I think all of us have to think about what are the organizational steps we need to build that level of resistance, but we all can, and we have the tools available to us to do it.

So, uh, thank you, Anne. I, I appreciate so much you giving me the time and the platform to have this conversation with you, and I've just enjoyed it so much.

Anne Green: Oh, it's so much fun, and I look forward to seeing you again soon in real life. So Bradley Akabiro, thank you again. Go and grab the book, everybody.

We'll put the link in the show notes. Thank you for listening to Building Brand Gravity. Check out episodes you've missed. See us on YouTube, see us where you get your podcasts, and we will be back with you soon with [00:54:00] another episode. Thank you.

[00:00:00]

Laura Tomasetti: You know, making listening one of your superpowers is really important. I think a lot of young people feel like they have to come into a room and, and have the answer, the right answer. And then also not being afraid to fail. It's okay to then put your hand up and have the, quote-unquote, "wrong answer." It may not be the wrong answer.

Steve Halsey: Welcome to Building Brand Gravity. I'm Steve Halsey.

Anne Green: And I'm Anne Green. We're grateful to all our listeners who joined us for another episode. And today, as you know, Steve, we're sharing a conversation with two fellow agency leaders to mark a bit of a special occasion. But before we get into that, let's dig into some of the trends that we've both been watching.

And one area I know that's top of mind for both of us is the annual agency ranking season. You know, Steve, with spring comes the rankings.

Steve Halsey: Exactly.

Anne Green: Exactly. O'Dwyer's and [00:01:00] PRWeek both dropped their lists and accompanying coverage, and I felt, I know you and I have talked about this off the pods, Steve, but lots of interesting themes to pick up on there, frankly.

Steve Halsey: Yep. And Provoca, as always, is around the corner. And, and, you know, one of the big takeaways for me, um, 'cause there's always a little bit of the horse race of who's up, who's down, but, uh, but I think one of the things that's interesting is that while growth has slowed across many parts of the industry, one thing that is not slowing down is the pace of change.

You know, when you really think about it, in the current environment, agencies are really being asked to do more than ever, move faster, integrate deeper, operate much closer to the, to the client's business. And so what's interesting for me, and, and I know you get into this a little bit, uh, in your discussion that we're gonna get to today, is that the firms that are performing their best aren't necessarily the biggest or the most specialized.

They're the ones who [00:02:00] figured out how to evolve alongside their clients. They're the ones breaking down silos, bringing strategy and execution closer together and, and really kind of stepping into that advisor role. So when I look through the listings, uh, that you were just talking about, you know, I think about firms like Prosek, Praytell, Walker Sands, RBB, ThreeSixty, and of course GNS, but, but all these firms were up in the past year in the PR week rankings, but all of them are really focused on really evolving alongside and ahead of our clients.

And, you know, they're part of the peer sets that we talk to on a regular basis. And I think for me, a- and you, you probably agree, this, this matches what we're seeing in terms of this shift from agencies as service providers to really being operating partners, right? From a client's perspective, helping them navigate complexity in real time, and really the ones and the agencies that are leaning into and embracing AI as a [00:03:00] value-creating catalyst redefining their workflows, but staying grounded through this all and strong narrative thinking, I think those are the ones that are really seeing strong growth right now.

Anne Green: Yeah, actually the conversation I'm about to have, we, we talk about being so much deeper in the business as a comms PR integrated agency than maybe 30 years ago or so, and I couldn't agree more with the theme of resilience, Steve. I've frankly been pretty amazed, um, with all that has been coming at our clients, you know, at our group, which has the two agencies and our sector as a whole.

As many of our listeners know, we work across a lot of sectors, so advanced manufacturing, agribusiness, healthcare, food, professional services, and more than that. And each sector has been hit with, um, I mean, to put it mildly, significant challenges over the past 16 to 17 months, and that has had consequences.

But I'm pretty amazed at how nimble and [00:04:00] strategic our clients have been in tackling challenges while also pivoting to areas of upside. It, it's quite inspiring. You know, it gives, it gives me a lot of hope, and it gives me a lot of energy and enthusiasm. Another topic I wanted to bring up before we move on to the rest of the podcast is, um, the trend that we've all been seeing, which is pressures on members of the C-suite.

So we've seen this reported in numerous outlets, Fortune, Wall Street Journal, many more. There's a lot of movement in the CEO role right now. Lots of prominent longtime chief executives are stepping down. Many of those being tapped to take the top spot are actually internal replacements, or they're being pulled from experienced members of the boards of directors as opposed to, say, an outside search, which is also very interesting.

And I think some experts are noting that in a time of such seismic change, you need individuals who can fully operate on day one. The challenges are too great, as is the need to move both fast and [00:05:00] strategically. I think probably Apple's succ- you know, successor to Tim Cook is an excellent example of that.

And that changing of the guard, so to speak, certainly seems to extend down and throughout the C-suite. I'm thinking of, you know, the ones that we may be closer to, chief communications officers, chief marketing officers, new senior technology or AI roles and things like that.

Steve Halsey: Yeah. And but I, I think one of the things that, that's interesting about that too is, uh, with change comes opportunity, and I think one of the more encouraging shifts I think we're seeing right now is really this continued rise of women in top leadership roles.

Um, you know, we're really seeing a lot more women stepping into the chief communications officer position, more women leading agencies, and frankly, more women really shaping the strategic direction of their organizations at the higher level, kind of what you're talking about. So with some of that turnover comes the opportunity to really rethinking, and I think that really matters because the role of communication [00:06:00] specifically, as w- we've advocated on this podcast, has never been more central to business performance.

So as we're thinking about reputation, trust, and narrative becoming more core to how companies operate and grow, it's really those leaders that connect those dots the best that I think are stepping forward and are gonna succeed through all this turnover and change. So Again, while there's a lot of change happening at the C-suite, there's also a real opportunity for CCOs and agency leaders, and I think it's a great opportunity to translate all this into more diverse and more dynamic leadership across our industry.

Anne Green: Well, that's really an excellent transition to my podcast conversation with two stellar leaders who bring many years of experience and wisdom, I would say, to their roles as the heads of agencies. I was talking with Beth Cleveland, she is the, um, CEO of Praytell, became CEO last year, and Laura Thomasetti, CEO of 360pr.

She was the [00:07:00] founder. They're 25 years old this year, which is amazing. And the occasion for this conversation is a really nice one, which is that myself and both of them were all named to the 2026 Women of Distinction list by PRWeek, which ties back to your women in leadership theme, Steve.

Steve Halsey: Yeah, and, and for those, uh, of our podcast, uh, listeners and viewers who aren't as familiar, PRWeek's Women of Distinction recognition, it's really about celebrating female leaders who have made meaningful impact on the industry through their work, through their leadership, commitment to advancing.

So this year, um, like the couple that it's, it's been in place, it really is a highly select group of leaders that are joining a pretty esteemed network of, of some amazing female practitioners in our industry. So it's really, I mean, it is, it is quite an honor. And, and here's what I also think's important about the Women of, of Distinction and the process and the selection that they do.

It's not just about business success. I [00:08:00] mean, that's part of it, but it really is about influence, it's about impact, how are you shaping the future of the profession, how these leaders are mentoring the next generation, how they're helping raise the standards of what great communication looks like. So, so, Anne, to see you along with Beth and Laura, I mean, all really strong female leaders that I advire- admire, and I'm fortunate enough to know you all as both friends, as colleague, it's incredibly well deserved.

And I think when you look at the performance of the three firms that the three of you lead, it really speaks to this broader moment of the industry where leadership isn't just being defined by results, it really is by impact and example.

Anne Green: Well, thank you, Steve. You know, and your support's been amazing here.

And, uh, the three of us as, as you'll hear, for listeners who stay on for the conversation, we really talked about this being a collective thing. You know, nobody gets to senior leadership, as you well know, in this field alone. And, you know, I always try to have a [00:09:00] balanced perspective when it comes to awards.

Um, you don't wanna over-index, but I agree this one does feel special for that reason. So when Women of Distinction list was announced, it got me thinking what a perfect occasion to get together with a few others who are honored to talk about a broad range of issues And that's the fun of our podcast, right?

So we got to get into things like how are we viewing this moment in our industry and beyond? What does it take to sustain and build that leadership over time? Who are our mentors, and how are we individually paying that back in service to others, including how we're counseling younger people and younger women who may be interested in this field, um, as well as other levels of employees and staff and people we meet.

And then the last piece, how we continue to grow as professionals, as people. And Beth and Laura were wonderful. We had such a good time. I'm sure our listeners will enjoy this conversation as much as I did. So let's get into it. So I'm thrilled to have on Building Brand Gravity two friends and amazing leaders in [00:10:00] our industry.

And Beth and Laura, welcome. So glad to see you both.

Beth Cleveland: Thank you. Thank you.

Anne Green: So I'm gonna embarrass you with a quick intro, and then I'll ask you to tell me what I missed. So Beth, Beth, for our listeners, if you don't know her, check her out, 20 years of experience in communications. She founded and ran her own firm, Elm Public Relations, for a number of years before merging with how you may know her today, which is Praytell, back in 2013.

And, um, wow, Praytell has really grown since then, Beth. I mean, 170-some employees, multiple offices, but most importantly, you took on the CEO role in 2025, so congratulations on that. And I've had the pleasure of getting to know you through our PR Council CEO cohort, and it has been a delight, so welcome, Beth.

And then Laura, we've known each other for many years now. We're trying to figure out 10 years, 9 years, 12. I, I was thinking it was longer 'cause I feel like I've known you forever. Such a trusted friend. Also another CEO cohort person that, uh, that I [00:11:00] definitely see in a circle of trust. But Laura started in DC working at some very large agencies, big clients, founded 360 PR+ in 2001, where you remain CEO today and a partner.

And congratulations, 25 years this year, Laura. That's a... Can you believe that it's been 25 years? Some days I can. But thank

Laura Tomasetti: you. Thank you. Yeah, I,

Anne Green: yeah. It's, it's, I mean, I... One of the things we're gonna talk about today is sustaining a career, sustaining an agency, um, the relationships we have with clients and others, and I, I just think that's really amazing.

But just to add a bit more to my top line bios- What did I miss? What's one fun fact from each of you, and anything I missed from your bios. So Beth, go ahe- go ahead. Anything fun you wanna share with our listeners?

Beth Cleveland: Okay. All right. Fun fact. Well, you... That was an amazing bio, thank you, I appreciate it. And, um, uh, I guess my fun fact, uh, since so much of Pray Tell's work today is consumer centric, really doing kind of like creative centric campaign [00:12:00] work, um, I actually started out in high tech science communications, which is just, you know, really, really kind of an interesting way to kind of enter the industry and cut your teeth.

Working with folks like Walt Mossberg and Stuart Elliott and others that really helped shape, um, how I approached, uh, the world of, of public relations. So, uh, that was really, really fascinating, kind of a interesting way in. And then to move to the consumer side, I was like, "Wow, okay, this is, this is like a different thing," but some great foundational elements that really, really kind of kicked things off.

And then my other little fun fact, which is more just fun, less bio, uh, I always have semi-sweet dark chocolate chips in my top drawer. My staff love it, uh, laugh about it, but it is like, don't overthink it, it's a great afternoon pick me up, and, uh, always my go-to.

Anne Green: I love that. And I also have little mixed nuts and dark chocolate in my drawer, so I think we share that.

Oh, my God. It's

Beth Cleveland: just like you gotta have it, especially when we get stuck on calls. So, yeah.

Anne Green: Exactly. Exactly. So how about you, [00:13:00] Laura? Anything I missed and any fun facts you wanna share for our listeners? Thanks for the intro, first of all. So great to be here to talk with,

Laura Tomasetti: with you, Ann, and you, Beth, too. But, um, I think just one, one thing that I carry with me as part of my career, I spent a little bit of time in-house and for Hasbro, uh, and then also for a nonprofit organization.

And I think that that perspective was help- it's been helpful informing what I do at Three Sixty, and taking that Three Sixty approach and just sort of understanding a little bit more about how our clients navigate their day. Um, I spent a lot of time in meetings, and like thought agencies, I always thought by, about my agency as having the fun part of the job.

Uh, I loved my time in-house and, and have stayed close with a lot of friends and colleagues from Hasbro, and Hasbro was actually our first client, so it is, it is important to me, um, to mention. And I guess on a fun fact, uh, let's see. Um, I met my husband in PR, [00:14:00] so we mentioned, you mentioned that I started working, uh, for some agencies in DC.

I worked for Omnicom agencies, and he and I worked at Porter Novelli together for a couple of years. And he came out of news. He was working at CNN in DC and, and pretty quickly decided that PR was not for him. But it's, it's been nice over the years because I, because he's had that time on, on our side of things, um, I don't, you know, I don't have to explain things Uh, ad nauseam.

Uh, you know, when it's been a, a long day or when I have a particular challenge, he seems to have some insight to what we do, which is nice.

Anne Green: That is nice. Um, as, as some listeners know, my husband is a professional musician. He's a drummer, so our worlds are very different, but he is such a proponent of everything we're doing, and he's so engaged.

But it's nice also to have a spouse who gets what you're doing. Um, and I love what you said, Laura, about I've been... Kim Sample of PR Council and I both call each o- each other, like, [00:15:00] agency animals. I've been an agency person the whole time. But I think it's amazing what you're identifying about that empathy and compassion that we need to help our agency side people understand of what it's like on the corporate side, and the kind of relentlessness of that day.

So I, I think it's wonderful that you can give that context. And, and speaking of context, the reason I gathered us today is because of the, um, the PRWeek Women of Distinction list that came out this year. And congratulations to you both. I was very honored to be named as well. And there's so many amazing women on the list.

And I was thinking about the fact that what, um, what a great opportunity to get a few of us together. You know, I've known you both for a while now. And, and this one felt a little bit meaningful. Our industry is awards crazy. Love awards. And some, you know, sometimes you're like, "Hmm, it's another award, okay."

But this one did feel meaningful in terms of it acknowledging longevity of leadership, giving back, sustained. Um, to me, it [00:16:00] meant as much, I think, for our, my group and firms as for me. But I thought, "Let's get together and talk about it." So for each of you, maybe Laura, w- what does it mean to you, and then Beth, I'd love to hear from you, too, th- this whole Women of Distinction piece?

Laura Tomasetti: Thanks, and it, it is an honor to be, uh, in the same class as the two of you. And I think, first and foremost, I just, I think it's great that PRWeek creates this space to tell our stories and, and the stories of other women leaders across the agency. And it is a reminder of how many amazing women are in this, in this, uh, industry.

Um, so that's, that's, I think, first and foremost. And there's a personal element, of course. Uh, I, I have been from a, an agency standpoint, and I felt like you, this is, this is very much for the, this is not just my win, this is agency w- agency's win, particularly in our 25th year. It felt, it felt really meaningful.

Uh, and it's not about egos, right? Because we don't do this by ourselves. We do this with a lot of people around us. And [00:17:00] so I, I, I am thankful for my work family, but also the support of my, my own family. And, um, in particular, just want to mention my mom, who, um, who passed during the pandemic. Um, but you know, for many years, she was really my champion.

And, and when I was growing up, it wasn't about, like you know, "I really want you to get married." It was, she always assumed that that would, that would happen, that I would find a great partner, but it was very much about the career. Um, and you need to have a career. You need to, you know, do something that you love, and I think for, for women of her generation, that was just super important because some of them had that and some of them did not.

Um, so shout out to my mom. I

Anne Green: love that. I love that. I remember starting at Burson-Marsteller, I met some women who were kind of two generations ahead who really sacrificed a ton to fight- Mm-hmm ... their way into a seat that wasn't just a secretary. So that's a very recent memory, and I, I love that kind of advocacy.

What does it mean to you, Beth, you know, s- seeing yourself on this list? Um,

Beth Cleveland: well, Laura, so [00:18:00] well said. Um, I will add to that in that, um, I think the timing of this as I've ... I was president of Praytell for 12 and a half years, doing a lot of, of the same job I'm doing now. But moving into the CEO position in August and, you know, having recognition like this so early on is certainly, um, such a nice confidence boost and just nice recognition for, as you said, Laura, the whole agency and just all the work that goes into where we are, you know, as a mid-size agency.

So that has been really lovely. Um, I did send it to my mom as well. A very proud mom out there who, of course, couldn't log in, and there was a whole, whole ... You know, we figured it out. But, um, but you know, it is funny, even at, at our age now, I'm still text my parents, uh, remind my husband I'm distinct. I remind him daily and, and that is, uh, really sinking in, too.

So, uh, but no, such an honor and, and I think it's, it was really fun to read everybody's stories. I was [00:19:00] picking up little tidbits and learning, uh, reading all of the great kind of insights from, from the folks recognized.

Anne Green: I wanted to hear both of your reflections. I mean, it's amazing to have two experts like yourself.

The more of us that bring our views to the table, the more we understand what, what is happening in a very uncertain time. So when you look at the industry right now, a lot of change going on, a lot of consolidation, which we've seen waves of before. Mm. Huge technology shift, geopolitical. I mean, this, this crazy world right now, right?

So what, for each of you, and maybe Beth we'll start with you, what feels very similar and recognizable about our industry today versus what, what feels like real change? And, you know, answer that however you'd like to.

Beth Cleveland: Well, I'm gonna save AI for, for ... I'm gonna put a pin in AI for, for the moment 'cause that would be the, the first thing on my mind.

But, um, I have been thinking a lot over, I would say, the last- two, three years on, like, my early part of my career and what are kind of the similarities or patterns that [00:20:00] we can learn from in the current state of change, and specifically thinking about media consumption and the shift from, you know, kind of what's happening on the publisher level and reporters becoming, uh, fewer and fewer.

But it is kind of taking a new shape, right? Like, more social first, new emerging platforms. It's video first. It's people, you know, people reporting on the news, um, uh, reporting on the reporters. But, uh, all of that, like, looking back at the shift from print to digital and kind of, I looked a lot at, like, okay, not the same, but yet a big change, right?

Or it felt like a big change to clients when you're on the agency side and you're like, "Look, USA Today is not gonna report this in print. I'm so- we know this is your big launch, but they can do digital. What do you think? Here's why it's interesting. It will be logged on the internet forever." And, um, at the time r- our clients didn't want that, right?

They wanted the, like, really thing you could hold and hang it up in the office. Um, and I remember, I think about that now [00:21:00] in terms of how do we give clients confidence? How do we look at those small wins? We gotta test and learn. Uh, 'cause you can see things evolving into, into something new. And, and so I, yeah, I've drawn on a lot of that from kind of those patterns.

I also think, um, just the resiliency of the media industry, I'm continued to just ... I think it is such a resilient industry, and we are in such an information overload, uh, you know, kind of era, and I think we're gonna need trusted sources, and that will continue to take different shapes. But yet there are kind of these thematics where you're like, "Okay, yes, like I can see this evolving into a new way.

It's not scary. It's actually just new and different." And, um, and we can kind of help bring our clients along for the ride. So, those are kind of some of the similarities I'm looking at. Um, so maybe I'll stop there and see if, Laura, you have any other kind of adds.

Laura Tomasetti: I'm glad that you started with media and, and, and that you m- you made the point that it

'Cause we, we keep talking about the media landscape [00:22:00] really fast evolving, but it really has been changing for decades with the move to digital. And there's, from the legacy publishers, es- you know, especially, like, if you look at the Times content, the content is better and better and better. There is so much there, um, to explore, uh, and, and just to, you know, to explore in more personalized ways, right?

So, it's not just given to us in sort of one big lot. We can kind of say, "I wanna go, I wanna look at travel," or, "I wanna look at well." Um, and then all the different, you know, the different newsletters, Substack. It's, you know, it's, it's tough. I, I think our, our people here always sort of bemoan, like, there's something that comes across and XYZ legacy publisher has, uh, you know, consolidated or shuttered or, you know, is moving staff.

Um, but there's also, you know, there's the rise of Substack, and it's been kind of incredible. So there's a lot of opportunity, I think, in the current media landscape, and that, that's been good to see. Um, I think we're a lot [00:23:00] closer to the business as an industry today as in terms of our roles than, than, you know, 20 years ago when we were starting out, or even longer ago when I was starting out.

It's, you know, it's not just press. Um, it's, it's more of a range of stakeholders. I think there's more recognition by, as we know, by executives. I know we were talking about this in preparation for today, that there's much more recognition for communicators' roles in their organizations, and most organizations that are worth their salt are really prioritizing communications, internal and external.

So I think that's really good. Um, you know, one thing that's, that's different that is challenging is the speed at how fast things are moving. Um, and sometimes a, a stories int- stories are traveling really fast, and sometimes that's a good thing, and sometimes it's challenging and we're having to manage it, um, and manage a response.

But I mean, those are some of the things I think that, you know, that ... And maybe I focus more on really what's changed, but, uh, there's

Anne Green: just a lot of good, too. Yeah, [00:24:00] it's interesting. A future guest we're gonna have on the podcast, Brack, uh, Bradley Acero, who's at Bully Pulpit, he just came out with a book called Faster, Messier, Tougher about crisis, and that'll be a great conversation, sort of a precursor.

Listeners, watch for the link and check it out. Um, he's brilliant at this. But that speed issue, you know, it's, it, and, and how we deal with that. Now he's talking about it more in the issue of crisis, but also understanding how you live your values in that moment, and a lot of stuff we're all dealing with with our clients.

But I love that we spent time talking about the media landscape. In some ways I feel like, um, some things that are old are new again, which is the- Mm-hmm ... focus on human relationship, understanding who real trusted sources are, and that's from the journalist side, but also journalists back to communicators and companies.

Different ways to have voices. Like many, I'm an obsessive podcast listener, not just a podcast host, and I often joke with people, "If you don't have a podcast, are you even alive right now? Ha ha ha." So, um, it's a funny joke on myself, but [00:25:00] I think that right now that dynamism in helping our younger staff especially understand some of the skills and tools that we had to build, you know, as we were each coming up in a landscape that was different, are very, very much true today.

And I do see ... I, I loved, Beth, when you said putting a pin in AI. I think we're at a point where we can still do that. In the future, the chatbots won't let us. They're like, you know, "You don't put, don't put me in the corner. I'm, I'm in charge now." But all joking aside, you know, I, I think that now some things like generative engine optimization and the ways in which trusted sources and authority are being filtered through large language models, it's a very interesting time to have a dialogue about how we do what we do today.

So I, I love those examples of Of media especially. And, and that old thing, I have heard some people say recently, "Have you just picked up the phone?"

Beth Cleveland: I have such a unimportant anecdote, but I'm gonna share it. Um- Please do. The other day, I was, uh, trying to get in touch with one of [00:26:00] our, uh, one of our technology, uh, platform, um, cli-cus- client service teams, and, uh, I'm on the phone with somebody at the agency, we're chatting through a situation, and I dialed in the representative, um, you know, who we work with all the time, but usually over a video call.

Called him, and I merged him in onto a three-way call, and I was like, "Okay, you've got me, you've got Renee, now you've got this person." And I was like... He was like, "Oh, this is my first ever three-way call." And I was like, "Well, we are all dating ourselves in different ways in this, right, in this moment." But, uh, no, I'm with you on picking up the phone.

There's a lot can be solved from that. Um, but I think also to your point on just, um, as we are bringing people into the industry and kind of this pace of change, and, um, I know we all have FOMO that everybody else has figured it out first and we're all behind, but, um, but really I've been thinking a lot about, like, sustainable change and, um, not burning people out [00:27:00] in trying to adapt, and it's, like, small wins and we're gonna, we're gonna, like, keep having them and get better and better and better and more, uh, it's more rewarding and, and hopefully, uh, you know, we're continuing to kind of learn together.

But it is hard. It's hard to ask people to do one more thing right now and say, "Hey, you're doing your job. The media landscape is rapidly changing. There, you have to go find the sources in new ways, and also can you start using AI and adapt all these other things?" It's very complex. So, um, sustainability of, like, change is high on my list.

Um, and then, yeah, and I, and then I think in terms of the employees, we're talking a lot about just being curious, looking around corners, kind of, uh, really embracing, like, your entrepreneurial sort of spirit in how we operate day to day, and everything is an opportunity to, like, bring fresh eyes. And, and, you know, we've gotta have the way we did it, but there's also, [00:28:00] we've gotta really be kind of looking ahead, too.

So it's a, it is a balance and, and a hard one to strike, and I think we're all, yeah, we're all learning together.

Anne Green: Yeah, it couldn't be more true. It couldn't be... And I think how we carry ourselves and our staff through this is a lot. You know, there's a lot of mental load and a lot of intensity. And, um, we're, I was having that dialogue with one of our SVPs just recently about how do we make this feel like not just one more thing, but I love the idea of small wins.

We, I try to use the term spot celebration, 'cause I feel like people in our- In our context, agency people too especially, we're really good at looking for the problem or the thing we're not doing. I don't know that we're always good at being like, "Hey, that thing we did, we did a good job. Like, yay us," right?

No, I think that's, I think that's right. I mean, I

Laura Tomasetti: think that the small... Celebrating the s- the small wins, the big wins, all the wins, right? And, and I think it, it seems that those small wins, it, it just becomes expected that we're gonna deliver those every day. [00:29:00] Um, and but they add up.

Anne Green: They add up. It's true.

It's true. So as we, as, as many know who might be listening, with the Women of Distinction, PR Week did a very fun Q&A. And it... I remember I spent quite a bit of time with it, um, had to think about it. Uh, then they killed me with the event that's coming up in May. They asked for a walk-on song, so that just melted me down for quite a long time.

That was a lot. So but in terms of the Q&A, one of the questions, I, I just wanna hit the two of you with some of these questions and see what you share, 'cause I, I really loved the responses you had, and it was really meaningful. So what... They talked about mentorship. So give an example of, and maybe Laura you can start, an example of mentorship in your past that really helped you come along in your career, maybe in even ways you didn't expect.

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I,

Laura Tomasetti: I j- I feel like I'm super grateful for the many mentors I've had across my career, men and women. [00:30:00] Uh, and I guess if I, if I, if I think about it, my career in sort of different segments, different phases, different chunks, the, uh, I go back to my time, um, in Washington and early in my career, my, my early 20s, mid-20s, I guess until I was about 30, um, when I was at Porter Novelli.

Um, and I- that was just a really transformative time. I mean, you know, you're coming of age in your 20s, you're starting to figure out, I really... You know, is this something I really wanna do? Is it gonna stick? And it, and it has, obviously. Um, and I was one of those people that I came into an agency, I was really grateful that I started in the agency and, and I, I did leave at one point, but I came back, and I'm really pro-agency.

But I was working across a number of teams, so I had not just one, not just two managers, but four or five. Um, and I was always good at that juggle, um, and sort of figuring out what worked for different people. Uh, and as a result, I, I, I look back at my time at, at Porter, and it was just a really special place in DC.[00:31:00]

Um, I was just on an email chain with Bill Nove- Bill Novelli, and they're talking about another reunion, which is super exciting. Um, but I had three or four mentors there, managers who really were also mentors. Uh, and I learned something different from each one of them and how they worked, and from one, you know, how to, how to navigate a, a room full of people who are much more senior than you.

How to listen more than talk. Um, you know, how to, how to build and sustain relationships. Um, we talked about, you know s- you know, what's sustainable and how do you sustain relationships? So that was a really important time for me. But then years later when I was building ThreeSixty, I had, um... I was fortunate to meet both, uh, Margie Booth, of M Booth, of course, and then Doug Spong, of Carmichael Lynch Spong at the time, and now is CL Relate and part of IPG, and they...

I just admired their organizations for the work that they were doing, but mostly, most of all for the cultures that they had both built that enabled that work, that [00:32:00] creative work. Um, and they were just both really good at building great cultures, agencies, best agencies to work for, best agencies of, agencies of the year.

Uh, and I just, I... They were just very generous with their time with me and, and I like to think that we have emulated at ThreeSixty a lot of what I learned from Doug and Margie and others, and I think this is a really generous industry. Y- you two are an example of that, so.

Anne Green: I love that, Laura. I've said that too.

We compete, you know? We... But I have found leaders in this industry to be tremendously generous, and so I, I couldn't co-sign on that enough. Beth, what are some examples of mentorship in your life as you were coming up? Oh

Beth Cleveland: my

Anne Green: gosh.

Beth Cleveland: I was reflecting on many as, as Laura was talking. Um, I have a couple thoughts.

Well, I was independent for a good chunk of my career, um, and so I frankly learned a lot from my clients, which was interesting. But as a young kind of, uh, entrepreneur, those were [00:33:00] a lot of the kind of executives I interfaced with. So there were some really great executives that just by osmosis and being around, I learned a lot, picked up a lot of things.

Um, but this one woman, Darcy Provo, who was my boss, my very first boss in San Francisco, um, was just the most amazing, uh, generous, uh, leader. She would pull me into her office when I would write a press release or, or, you know, really kind of deliver something to her and she'd have edits walk me through word by word, "Why did I strike this out?

Why did I change it?" Um, and then eventually, pretty, pretty kind of soon after, I got to go to pitches. I was helping win business, got to lead my first account as, like, an AE, um, which now in my shoes I look back on and I'm like Wow, that is kind of insane they let me do that. Uh, even like, you know, I... It was, it's, it's a lot of, um, trust, and I also think, like, pushing people out of their comfort zone in a way that, like, you can rise to the [00:34:00] occasion.

And so that was very informative. Um, and then years later in, at Praytell, we actually brought Darcy on as a consultant to help us with a pitch that we needed. Uh, she would always joke and say she was the gray hair, which, um, I don't think she had gray hair at all. But, uh, we brought her in to come to a pitch with us, and we were going through the presentation and pitching our ideas, and she just, like, wildly started clapping and cheering during the meeting.

And she was on behalf of Praytell, so that was a little, uh... And the client, I don't think the client was as, as amused. And, um, Darcy, uh, I don't even think we won the business, but she was just always our biggest cheerleader. I'm still in touch with her today. She was one of the people I had texted when this, um, award came out.

And, you know, I think mentorship, uh, you know, it is giving people those opportunities, and I am thinking a lot about in, getting people in the rooms and, you know, we're pretty intentional, I would say. Like, we try and bring the [00:35:00] te- you know, we, we try and bring the full team to a pitch that's gonna work on the business.

We know clients don't wanna meet a bunch of senior people that aren't gonna be doing the work. So, um, but, like, how do we do more of that? Because I think just so much of that learning is sitting there listening to leaders, listening to the, you know, the QA. How do you navigate those, those tough questions?

So, um, yeah, I definitely wanna, wanna do more of that too.

Anne Green: No, I think that paying it forward is so critical. So I love these stories of how we're mentored. I mean, as I mentioned earlier, I met some women who are quite a bit older than me at Burson. One was Sara Lee Slonsky, who had been a pioneer in food and wine PR, helped to found Les Dames d'Escoffier, and then pioneered pharma comms.

And then she was a freelancer at Cooper Katz helping us, and it was really special. But I knew what she sacrificed to get there. She was very clear about that. Um, the other thing my father had told me, I, both my mom and dad are passed now, but my father always used to say, "Don't [00:36:00] travel too light." And that, I take that as a mentorship thing, because what he meant was really appreciate the relationships you're building along the way- Mm-hmm

and nurture them. And I was always feeling like, "Oh my God, I'm gonna travel too light. I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna make that mistake." And now at 55, I find myself in quite a rich place of relationship, and in a place where the idea of networking or of making relationships is really more joyous. It's about meeting new people.

And so one of the things I've been trying to do in giving back And I'd love to hear, you know, what you folks are doing. I do a lot of mentorship of younger folks from my alma mater at Vassar College. I'm, I'm there every year for this program called Sophomore Career Connections, which is such an early time.

And doing... I'm running the advertising, marketing, PR cohort so they can be like, "What the heck are these jobs?" But Laura, what are ways that you think about giving back? You know, and, and because I think part of this is, how do we wanna attract people into this profession that's changing so much, too?

Laura Tomasetti: No, it's great [00:37:00] to think about and, and, and I think there's different, you know, ways to mentor, um, if, if that's part of what you're asking about at, at, and at, at different stages.

As you mentioned, students, I certainly speak with a lot of students about coming into the field and what to expect and what to emphasize that they've done that is relevant for what they might do, um, if they're coming into our, into our, our industry. Um, and then there's people that are already here. Uh, and one of the things I really like to do is, you know, I call it walk around management, walk around mentorship.

Um, before I sit down, I come into the office most days because I do like to, I do like to see people in person. I think a lot of that you can do some things across the way on, on screen, but there's a lot of things that you miss if you don't talk to someone in person and pick up on the nuances of, of what they may be experiencing on a given day or coming off of a weekend.

Um, so I, you know, before I sit down at my desk and sort of buckle in for the day, I do my walk around and I [00:38:00] talk to as many people as I can, whoever's in early. Um, and also who's ever in late, um, whoever's in late at the end of the day, too, and, and might just be stuck at their desk and have that conversation, "Oh, how are you doing?"

You know, "What are you working on?" And this is a lot of times I think younger people don't want to see themselves as a squeaky wheel. They don't want to, they don't wanna s- put their hand up. They don't wanna suggest that maybe something's not working. Um, so I think being that person that can kind of clear that barrier and ask a question and engage them, "How's it going?

Is there anything I can help with?" And, you know, "Gee, that sounds stressful. Um, have you talked to so and so?" So, um, I think just sort of breaking down the barriers is really important and I really like that walk around, um, you know, those conversation opportunities that I would consider are a little bit more informal mentorship in addition to the formal mentorship that, that we can do at, at 360.

Um, I also just, you know, in the number of years I've been in the business, I, I, I'm in a mentorship situation with [00:39:00] clients, too. You know, we have a lot of clients that, you talked about this at the top end, that have incredibly stressful days and don't have a peer to run down the hall to. One of the things that we're really fortunate, uh, about in an agency is that there are other people like you up the hall at your level that have been there at different levels, that have been there, done that, and, um, can share their experience.

So I think, um, you know, being able to talk to clients too and what's happening there, how can, how can I help? Here's what I would've done, or gee, I, you know, I went through something like that. Um, sharing that experience and, and then also I, I learn from my clients too. So, um, I think the mentorship can be done at different levels and in different ways, both in our organizations and, and outside.

Anne Green: Yeah, and some of it is just... And even among peers, how do we help each other? How are we there for each other? Um, I think what you said, Beth, about, you know, who's in what room, bringing more people in, what you're saying, Laura, about recognizing- Yeah ... where people do or don't feel like [00:40:00] they can speak up, or, you know, how empowered they feel at different ages, how sensitive you are.

It is an interesting thing navigating this hybrid world. You know, it's a little bit different. But understanding that mix of in-person engagement. I've been really focused on this question of how do we release more capital for really meaningful in-person engagement, you know, and bringing people together, and we'll be investing quite a bit this year in flying sector teams in to be together.

You know, and but, um, it's, it's an interesting evolution, but I love the idea. You know, to me, and I'd, I'd love to hear your guys' POV on this, it is a changing industry. It can be challenging. Agency life can be challenging, and the corporate side can be challenging too, right? I always say grass is green and brown on both sides of every fence.

Good and bad, right? But I do think for me, this, this field and what I've enjoyed about growing in it, and I am a completely... I surprise myself in being a business person. I was much more liberal arts. I thought I'd be a university professor. This wasn't my plan. But I've loved the intellectual [00:41:00] curiosity of this field, all we've learned about.

I mean, the three of us together could probably talk from now until the end of time about all the things we've learned about industries and clients and such. And then the interaction with people. In an agency, you have three to four generations at any given time, and the kind of multi-level learning and mentorship, and with clients too, Laura.

It's really, to me, still that kind, and problem-solving and creativity, those are the things when I talk to younger people that I feel are very alive, especially given the integrated nature of the work we do. What are some of the things, Beth, you might say to young people of any kind that would be thinking about marketing or comms or branding, PR today?

Beth Cleveland: Couple thoughts. I think from a young person kind of coming in, I would say I totally agree on the, like, problem-solving, um- I have been really, really excited about some of the new talent coming into Praytell who have such a breadth of experience [00:42:00] across ... They've created content. They love writing. They are, um, they know how to edit film.

They, it, the, like, diversity of spaces they played in, I think is so exciting, and you can see, like, certainly I think coming into the industry, having more diverse kind of skill sets of just-

Anne Green: Mm-hmm ...

Beth Cleveland: different ways that people communicate, uh, long form writing, short form, all of it. Like, really, uh, you can see this new generation of talent coming in where you're like, "Wow, this is gonna be exciting."

And being able to kind of bring it all together, um, uh, is, is super exciting. So that, to me, um, I think is really, really important. Um, I also have folks reach out all the time saying, "Hey, can we intern at Praytell? I have a 15-year-old." And I'm like, "Well, it's a little early. Not yet." Um, but I o- I have said, like, "Go work in the service industry."

And I think that's, like, a little bit shocking for a parent who wants to resume build for college, which I fully get, and I [00:43:00] understand that. But the understanding how to deal with people and manage those problems and figure out how to get a win, and we at Praytell talk a ton about just service industry kind of acumen, and like, what can you learn from, like, a really amazing restaurant.

Um, so service is, I think, just having those people skills, especially as kids are spending more time on their phones. Like, really understanding kind of how to work with people is super critical. Um, and then on the mentorship side, I just wanted to mention, um, personally, I talk a lot to more of our up-and-coming leaders about, like, really understanding their superpower.

And, uh, we just are off of annual reviews, so it's so top of mind for me. But go ... You know, kind of looking at all the different skill sets of somebody and going like, "Oh my gosh, this is your ... like, what makes you uniquely special as a leader, as an employee," and leaning into that and, like, figuring out how do you kind of craft around that [00:44:00] versus us all trying to be the same kind of leader.

Um, I think I mentioned this to you, Anne, of in my past, people were like, "Don't smile as much. Have more of a monotone voice. Uh, you know, you're just too happy." Like, I've gotten just kinds of feedback along the way of like, "Be this thing." That is so unnatural to me, and then I just get ... I don't know how to be.

I, it's, it's truly not who I am. So, um, it's taken me a very long time to learn that, like, it's way better to be your authentic self than try and be something that you're not, and that's not very inspiring as a leader if you're, if you're not you. So, um, I do think kind of anyone along their journey, like, starting to kinda understand, like, "Wow, this is something I uniquely bring to a team, to a client situation," and, um- And really kind of leaning into that, and like how can you build around what makes you special, so.

Anne Green: That's so important too, and there's so much discussion today. You see it in Harvard Business Review about CEO skillsets, and [00:45:00] I'm t- talking about, you know, folks like us. I feel sometimes I'm a CEO in a little pond, but you know, still it's, it's transferable. But this idea of emotional intelligence, compassion, empathy, gratitude, connection, sharp.

You know, you have to be sharp, direct, being direct with people. But being that self that people can sense that you are, you know, bringing as much of yourself as you can to it is very powerful today. Laura, what are the things that when you think about people entering the profession, or you think about your younger employees, what are, what are those things that light you up about this work?

And as hard as it can be, right? It is not easy.

Laura Tomasetti: I, I mean, so many thoughts, but you know, first off that communications is, is not only an industry, but it's a, it's a foundational skill. So, um, wherever you may dream to go, communications is a great place to start. Uh, and I think for many that, you know, that come into the field, it sticks.

And one of the reasons, reasons why it, you know, for me, and I think, you know, for both of you too, that this is a [00:46:00] creative business. And you know, whether you're in consumer, you're in B2B, you're s- you're problem-solving. You're, you know, you're, you're tapping into your curiosity, your intellectual curiosity.

Um, every day is different. Every day is different. I, I always say you are never gonna be bored in this business, you know? And you're go- you talked a little bit of too, Beth, about, uh, and Ann, about the continual learning that happens in our, in our organizations and in our industry. So, um, you know, the learning doesn't stop, and it's this every day is different.

And Beth, you mentioned that sort of diverse range of skills that you're seeing talent come in with now, and there is a diverse and equally diverse range of work that you're going to get to do. Um, so I think that, I think being in a creative business, and I do think PR at the core is a cr- it's a strategic business, it is a creative business.

I think it's a gift to work in a creative business and to get to think differently. We are paid to think differently. It's not just do what you know, do what you've done before. It's [00:47:00] think differently. Come up with what's different and what's next. Um, and I think in an, in an age of AI, that's really exciting that there's, that there is room for that creativity and a, a lot of runway for it.

And then in the agencies in particular, I, there's such a clear trajectory for career growth. So- If you are someone that's motivated, motivated by that. Um, you know, I think there's some challenges when you're starting out from a compensation standpoint, but there are opportunities to quickly grow your skill set, add to those many skills that you come in with, deepen those skills, but also grow, you know, from a compensation standpoint too.

So, um, you know, that, that ladder is real.

Anne Green: Yeah, absolutely. And I... You know, it's very interesting, this idea of learning. Um, it can feel like a cliche or, "Oh, I love to learn things." But, you know, here we all are various decades into our career, and I am just as excited and overwhelmed sometimes at all I'm learning as I was [00:48:00] before.

I'm a voracious collector of information. That's the reason I enjoy, along with Steve Halsey, in hosting the podcast, is I just wanna talk with people, learn, grow, um, have conversations like this. So it is, it is a powerful place. And I do feel, um, with the AI of it all, that the augmentation of intelligence, augmenting what is most human, using what machines are strong for, and then- Mm-hmm

leaning into what humans have as strengths is gonna be so powerful. And that idea of communicating human to human across stakeholders, across context, becomes even more powerful. Now, I, I forget, I was listening to Ezra Klein interview Stewart Brand, who's this legendary kind of Silicon Valley philosopher, launched the Whole Earth Catalog.

Like, an incredible... For anyone who hasn't heard that, incredible. He has a whole new book about maintenance, what it means to maintain what already exists. But at one point, he said, Stewart Brand said that AI may in fact teach us more [00:49:00] about what it means to be human than what it is to have these machines.

And so that gives me a lot, a lot of hope. To, to finish up today, 'cause you've been so generous with your time, I'd love each of you, what's a piece of either leadership advice you received or something you'd like to impart to our listeners, maybe a young person coming in or a mid-career or a leader? What, what's, what's a piece of advice you wanna share?

Beth, I'll let you go first.

Beth Cleveland: Ooh, okay, fun. I thought we were going down the AI path, so you... But let's, let's do, um, I think leadership advice is a great one to end on. Um, I will say, you know, uh, my... I won't go into the whole thing, but in my career, I had a lot of turns I was not expecting. I moved to a small market unexpectedly, uh, felt like my big agency comms career was kind of falling wayside, and then, and I really, um, eventually came to the conclusion of like, look it is possible.

Go for it. And, um, [00:50:00] and, you know, just start kind of trying some different things, and eventually it'll stick. And so, um, that is kind of how I started my first agency. And, um, and I do think, like, as you come into a field like communications where there's such diversity of work, it is really about, um, yeah, leaning into your strengths, um, but continuing to just iterate and, and try different things.

And I think it will start to kind of stick, and you will start to find kind of that, um, trajectory that, that you can keep growing around. And, um, yeah, I think it's just, it's an amazing industry. I've loved being a part of it. I love the people, the team aspect. And, um, and I think, to your point, I think the human element in the current aspect is so, so critical, and, um, and I think there's a huge opportunity for us to help shape that.

That's great.

Anne Green: I

Beth Cleveland: love

Anne Green: that. I love that. Laura, what, what's your advice you're thinking about you wanna share with folks? Yeah, I

Laura Tomasetti: mean, I think that, you know, [00:51:00] one of the things that, that I've learned to do better over the years and that has worked for me as a leader is, is really actively being, becoming a better listener.

Um, and I think being able to do that early in my career would've been great. I think I always felt that I needed to come in with the answer. Uh, but if you can really, if you can really activate that listening muscle and, and really active listening and kinda ... When I say active listening, like listening for what's there, what's being said, but also what's not being said.

Um, so I think, I think, you know, making listening one of your superpowers is really important. I think a lot of young people feel like they have to come into a room and, and have the answer, the right answer. And then also not, you know, not being afraid to fail. It's okay to then put your hand up and have the, you know, quote, unquote, "wrong answer."

It may not be the wrong answer. Um, so I think, you know, a combination of really being that, you know, attentive listener, but at the same time not being afraid to put your hand up, um, and not waiting [00:52:00] to be asked to do something. You know? It's a put your hand up, ask a question, volunteer to try something new, um, you know, th- then you're gonna get more opportunities.

Anne Green: I think that's great. I, I think that's so true. I, and all of us can work on listening. I get very excited. I love to chat and jump in and everything, so I, my team knows that, I think most of last year it finally fell off, but I had a little Post-it on the edge of my laptop here that said, "Listen." Just to, just to listen.

Get a c- you know? I get very excited. My, my piece of advice, aside from what my dad said, which is don't travel too light, uh, and you really have such pleasure in- Yeah ... those relationships over time. Mm-hmm. Especially the more senior you get, and your path is always surprising. I think the other thing is the mindset, especially now.

You're right, Beth, I kinda took a, a U-turn away from AI. I feel like we talk about it all the time, so we can return to that in every other podcast out there. But the idea that, um- We really thinking about ourselves as how do we augment what's [00:53:00] already strong. So how do we think our- ourselves as a counselor, and how do you start to understand there is a mindset of organizational leadership that you can start to understand even when you're much younger.

How do you look not just at your own world, your own team, or yourself as an employee, but how do you start to get curious, that's all, about what is management doing and why, and what is their experience, and what do they know and what don't they know? I think with my l- my early mentors, Andy Cooper and Ralph Katz, I figured they knew everything about managing an agency.

And then as I... As they welcomed me in the tent, I was like, "Oh, man, you guys don't know some of this too. Okay, we're figuring this out together." So the earlier that folks can start to say, "How do I speak and think like a counselor? How do I understand that there's an organizational leadership mindset beyond just the individual or a team mindset?"

I, I r- I really invite people to start to explore that early, because I think it's gonna be very strong as we lean into what makes us most human going forward. But Laura and Beth, it's been so fun- Thank you ... and [00:54:00] such a delight. Thank you. I hope your teams and other in the industry enjoy hearing more from you, and I hope you enjoyed the conversation too.

It was wonderful. Thank you, Anne.

Laura Tomasetti: It was great. I love your advice about not traveling too light. Thanks to your dad for that.

Beth Cleveland: Yeah.

Laura Tomasetti: It's a good one.

Beth Cleveland: That's a good one. I've not heard that before, actually. I feel like there's a lot of sayings where you're like, "Oh, yeah, we've heard it in different contexts," but that's a great one.

It really is. Like, the intentionality of it.

Anne Green: Yeah, it's, it... I don't know where it came from. Wish I could ask him. But, uh, it really sticks with me. So yeah, I hope others enjoy that too. But, um, for our listeners, as always, go and check out the agencies of both these wonderful leaders. Learn more about them. Um, hit them up on LinkedIn, and make sure to keep an eye on the feed.

We have... Steve Halsey and I are doing a lot of interviews right now. A lot of cool stuff is coming down the pipeline. So as always, thank you, and you can find us wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you again.

Laura Tomasetti: Thanks, Anne. Great stuff. Thanks, [00:55:00] Anne.