Building Brand Gravity Podcast

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Bradley Akubuiro: This cultural political divide that we've seen has just been in our faces every single day, and it shapes everything that we do. You almost can't have a conversation in this country without realizing that folks are on very, very different sides of almost every conversation. And so that really creates an application to how we communicate, not only with our customers, but frankly, even with our employees.

Steve Halsey: Welcome to Building Brand Gravity. I'm Steve Halsey.

Anne Green: And I'm Anne Green.

Steve Halsey: And today, Anne, we're talking crisis communications, which only makes sense given the insanity of today's operating environment for most organizations. And, you know, just thinking about all the factors that are in play right now, the interconnected nature of business in the world at large, the [00:01:00] speed that information travels, the ever-growing numbers of channels, changing expectations of stakeholders, polarizations in many countries and cultures.

Those are a few, but of course we can't forget our favorite, we can't do Building Brand Gravity without talking about the impact of AI. It's a lot to take on for even our most experienced leaders today.

Anne Green: Yeah, I agree, Steve. You know, I feel like it's never been a more important moment for leaders and organizations to reexamine what they know about managing through a crisis, and also to seek best practices that really meet this moment.

Um, happily, in a little while we're gonna have an expert joining the pod to help us think through this. I got to have, earlier this week, a truly excellent and wide-ranging discussion with Bradley Akabiro, who's a nationally recognized expert on corporate reputation and crisis communications. He's a partner at the agency Bully Pulpit International, which many may have heard of.

He's a friend of us, ours through the Page [00:02:00] Society, and Bradley is the author of a brand new book titled Faster, Messier, Tougher: Crisis Communication Strategies in an Era of Populism, AI, and Distrust. Super timely.

Steve Halsey: Very, very much so. Well, well, before we dive into your fascinating conversation with Bradley that, that our, our, our viewers are gonna absolutely love, I thought maybe we could start off by both sharing some observations on, on just the changing crisis and risk landscape, and the kind of advice that we're each giving our clients today, because I know it's a topic that you're actively engaged in and, and I seem to be more and more these days.

Anne Green: I think, um, the big thing I've been thinking about now is what it means to live your values as a corporation as well as a leader individually. And Bradley and I got right into this conversation The, the issue is a company cannot navigate a challenging situation effectively without knowing what [00:03:00] values are most central to their business, as well as which of them are most closely tied to their operational goals and really freedom to operate, you know?

And not all values are important, but not all of them are built the same depending on what the crisis is. And I, I think that this sounds easy, but it's, it's harder than, than just the surface of it, right? Everyone knows that companies should be rooted in their values and be crystal clear on what they stand for.

We hear that advice all the time, especially in this moment of polarization. But Steve, you and I have both seen too often, unfortunately, that the time and effort it takes to clarify that across senior leadership, then build understanding and buy-in across all operating units or geographies, and then to make it legible to staff no matter what their role, well, that level of work is often not pursued.

It takes consistency. It might be taken on partially, but it really needs consistency and depth. And especially in this environment when polarization makes [00:04:00] many organizations wanna kind of what keep their heads below the proverbial parapet, you know, sort of hide behind the hedge. So when a true crisis flies out of left field, unfortunately there's no time to backtrack and build this kind of foundation.

And the key is taking time to, as Bradley says, and I love this quote, "Know where you stand so you can then stand there." Simple words, but to me, very, very wise.

Steve Halsey: Yeah. I, I like that a lot, Anne, and, and, you know, really couldn't agree more. You know, so much of the hard work of crisis preparedness goes much deeper and wider than whatever plan is created.

You know, it's kind of like that concept we've been talking about of corporate narrative as your operating system. That really is truly fundamental because the best laid plan that sits on the shelf or somewhere in your hard drive is, is no good if it just doesn't become an innate part of how you, how you, uh, just work.

So here's kind of what I've been thinking about on the crisis [00:05:00] front. You know, one of the biggest shifts right now Is that in many cases, the large language models are really becoming the first responders in, in a crisis. And, you know, I've written about that in a, in a number of industry bylines because before the company issues a statement, before any journalist writes a story, basically before humans are actively involved in assessing what the heck is going on here, the large language models are already starting to synthesize what's happening, summarizing it, shaping, pulling from what's out there- Mm-hmm

to try and understand the situations the best they can. So that means that your reputation isn't just what you say at the moment. It's really that system that you have in place and what that says about you, because that's what's being pulled into the large language model, and it really raises the bar for preparation.

Um, and we're seeing this right now in, uh, one of the crisis situations we're, we're [00:06:00] consulting on right now, because the reality is, if your narrative isn't clear, consistent, well-distributed across your digital footprint already, AI's gonna fill in the gaps. And this is really important. If you don't audit and you leave that old information out there, guess what's gonna be found?

Guess what's gonna be up there in the AI summary? It's gonna be that older information that's gonna be referenced. And unfortunately, once that initial interpretation takes hold, as you know, it's very, very hard to unwind, to move that needle. So, so increasingly, we're advising clients to really think about crisis readiness, not just in terms of that response when something happens, but what is that pre-response that you wanna think about and get out there ahead of time?

And so it really comes down to, um, really what I'd call a four-step checklist that I'm giving clients right now, which is number one, [00:07:00] are you clear on your core narrative and as you said, the values, and are they consistently expressed and findable? 'Cause if you have values but you don't make them findable, it becomes really difficult to believe that you're truly living those every day.

Number two, do you have credible, high-quality content that really reinforces that narrative across trusted channels? Number three, and this is important, are your executives and subject matters experts visible in everyday communication, and is that visibility aligned with what you wanna be communicated about your values?

And then finally, do all these signals connect in a way that becomes easy, not just for people, but for the machines to interpret? Because in this environment, if you haven't shaped the narrative, it's gonna be shaped for you.

Anne Green: I couldn't agree. I co-sign on all of that, Steve. I think those fundamentals are excellent, those checklist.

I know we're actually, you know, working on it [00:08:00] for ourselves. We, we have to turn this skill set to ourselves as a group and as our two agencies, and we're working with many of our clients on these questions. And I think we also, you, I, and many others need to keep evangelizing regarding what is required here.

I think Bradley is absolutely doing the same. So, and you know, this whole conversation also reminds me of the discussion around confidence and trust in business that you had on an earlier episode of the podcast, and that was focused on the Page and Harris Poll, um, Confidence in Business Index. So if folks haven't listened to that one yet, I also highly recommend it.

Steve Halsey: Yep, lots of points of connection here, but I think we ought to get to your conversation with Bradley, Anne.

Anne Green: I'm so happy to welcome Bradley Acabura to this podcast. Hey, Bradley. How are you? Hey,

Bradley Akubuiro: Anne. How you doing?

Anne Green: I'm good. I'm good. I'm here on the occasion talking to you about your book- Wow ... which I have here.

I love the artifact. And as we discussed, the title is not just printed here, it's printed here. Yes. So [00:09:00] kudos to you for insisting on that, because those jacket, dust jacket removers like me, the branding has to be right, Bradley, right?

Bradley Akubuiro: I, well, I, I love that you and I have the same mentality on this.

Anne Green: Yeah, when I took it off, I was like, "That's so smart.

Everyone should do that." Anyway, I'm thrilled to have you. Congratulations on the book. How does it feel to have it out there in the world? It feels

Bradley Akubuiro: great. It feels great. I mean, I think, you know, the way that the world feels right now can be a little chaotic. It was a little chaotic trying to work through this book.

In some ways it was cathartic, though, uh, because I was able to make sense of what I was seeing and feeling. Uh, but now having it out has just sparked so many great discussions, and I'm having a great time with it.

Anne Green: That's awesome. So I'm gonna get a little bit into your introduction, but I'm, I'm trying to make sure that I follow good communications principles.

So I'm trying to start each interview now by asking my guest to tell our listeners what to listen for, as we have a pretty wide-ranging discussion. And by the way, [00:10:00] you know, we had a prep call. We could talk about a million things for hours. There's so much in the book, and just in general. But what are the couple of things you want listeners to be really listening for as we get into this conversation?

Bradley Akubuiro: Yeah, I had someone actually stop me and ask me, you know, to explain this book in, in 20 words or less. Um, and I think I probably got right on the line and, and the way that I describe this is you can no longer please everyone, and in fact, you are going to upset many people with almost any decision that you make.

So you have to identify the people that matter the most to what you're trying to accomplish, and then get tough about tuning out the noise. So- That's great ... yeah, I, I, I will say that when you go through this book, you will find many different stories. You will have lots of different elements, particularly kinda conversations around polarization and, and populism, uh, around the advent of AI and what that's meant as a disruptor and an enabler.

You will find so [00:11:00] many conversations around how to really narrow your audience. Um, at the end of the day, what I hope people take away is that we actually need to be comfortable in the discomfort of the moment that we're in, and we've gotta push through, because the things we need to accomplish don't change because the environment has.

Anne Green: I think that's so well said. And, and just for those who don't have the book in hand, Faster, Messier, Tougher: Crisis Communication Strategies in an Era of Populism, AI, and Distrust. So, you know, I wanna backtrack now to you've had a really diverse career. You're right now a partner at Bully Pulpit International and an expert in corporate comms, and I'm looking at your dust jacket here.

But you've been on the corporate side at Boeing and what used to be called United Technologies, UTC. You've worked, um, with Reverend Jesse Jackson Sr., which I am sure was quite an extraordinary experience. You've counseled all kinds of folks as a consultant, including world governments. And to me, um, that career is quite rich, and it means that [00:12:00] you have a lens that's really more like a prism, right?

So you got a lot of facets there. You can turn it and turn it and see a different surface. And I assume that brings you a lot of different perspectives. As you think about the evolution of corporate comms and crisis, how has that prism of a career, if that resonates for you, informed, um, what you're thinking about in terms of crisis today?

Bradley Akubuiro: It, it does resonate, Anna. Actually, I think it's one of the best ways that you could capture that concept. You know, I've had a lot of different perspectives that have influenced the way that I see the world, um, and it's been extraordinarily helpful. You know, I, I talk in this book a little bit about a episode actually at United Technologies where we were, uh, our CEO was on the American Manufacturing Council, uh, that was led by the White House during the first Trump administration.

Um, and I talk about kind of the race to figure out what we would do, um, when, uh, Charlottesville, when the episode in Charlottesville happened, uh, [00:13:00] and every company was trying to figure out, do you continue to engage with this council or do you not? And one of the stories that's in this book is about this small group of, uh, communications leaders that kinda came together, myself included, um, and others at a few different companies that were also trying to figure this out in real time.

And I will say the perspective of having a political background, having a communications, particularly corporate reputation background, um, the real kind of employee insights, um, and the real advocacy, uh, lens that I was bringing to the conversation, uh, was extraordinarily helpful in a moment where the world was being turned upside down.

Uh, the things that we were dealing with in that moment to make the decision, uh, were so much more than how is this gonna look on the front page of the news tomorrow. And I think being able to bring those perspectives to bear when you're thinking through how do we navigate these true trust-related, uh, issues is so important, and I think it's only gonna become more important as we start [00:14:00] walking further and further into this, um, disputed trust kinda society.

Anne Green: I love that story because it's also a story about finding community in your peers. Um, you and I met through a community like that, Page, and, and through other venues and, um, in this kind of volatile environment, and that certainly was an example of that. I remember that time well, and it was very interesting to see the kind of stories you share in the book, and that one especially with Charlottesville.

And I remember that whole story about these councils and who's gonna say what, and I can-- You talk in there about the pressure for media to respond, to respond, to respond, and I love the fact that, you know, you were able to tap into others who were in a similar situation. Not everyone made the same decision.

As, as you say in the book, not every company went the same route. But you were able to kinda tap into that, um, that brain trust. But why this book and why now? You know, there's, there's, there's all, uh, the, the world has been plenty interesting [00:15:00] for a while now, but what made you feel compelled to write this to, you know, at this time?

Bradley Akubuiro: Yeah. Well, a few things. I think the world has been interesting for quite some time now. I think the pace of change that we're seeing in the world has accelerated so dramatically over the last few years that it almost felt like it was time you had to put a marker in the ground and say, "Here's what we've seen over the last few years that has brought us to this point, and here is how we have to operate differently, uh, to be able to engage, uh, and frankly, survive in the crisis of today."

And so one of the big factors around this was the acceleration we saw around COVID. Um, there were a few things that changed pretty dramatically, but that include some of the gaps that are created around common fault lines, uh, that are really, really important for us to pay attention to. The economic divide has only widened, and the s- disparity between haves and have-nots has grown as a result.

Uh, we have seen just an absolute, um, expansion of the technological divide with the advent of, of AI in the form that [00:16:00] it's at today and the accessibility that it's at, and the ability to create, uh, credible disinformation with the speed and scale with which we can today, um, has absolutely exploded. Uh, this cultural political divide that we've seen has just been in our faces every single day, and it shapes everything that we do.

You almost can't have a conversation in this country, uh, without realizing that folks are on very, very different sides of almost every conversation. And so that really creates an application to how we communicate, not only with our customers, which I think consumer companies, uh, have been feeling for some time, but frankly, even with our employees, um, our regulus- uh, regulators and policymakers, um, and with our stakeholders across the board.

Uh, and so for us to really pay attention to these things is so important, and how people get information in this information divide is, is really critical. You know, um, nearly half of people under the age of 30 in this country are receiving [00:17:00] their information, uh, from social media. Um, you know, when you start to think about just the sources of information, they're so different, and that's before you even get into the lenses that are put on this information, uh, when people do receive it.

Uh, and so I know you mentioned the institutional trust piece. That divide has only int- increased as well. I think we have seen a decline in institutional trust for quite some time. Um, what we have seen is a precipitous drop-off over the last couple of years. And so why now? I think because the world is a different world than we operated in before COVID, and I think the moment that we have right now is gonna determine who are the brands and who are the leaders that are able to champion a future, um, that is, uh, unfortunately, in this faster, uh, messier, and tougher world, uh, really able to kind of put together, um, a, a regime that allows them to be successful.

Um, and it requires different actions from each of us.

Anne Green: Yeah, and there's, there's so much to [00:18:00] unpack here. I'm, I'm excited. I know other leaders in our space listening to this have 17 ways they would want me to go right now. But the first thing I'd love to do, because this really caught my attention, is, um, Bradley, what is a crisis?

We all think we know what the word is, but I feel like in crisis communications, the very first thing we have to do is figure that out, and I'll tell you a very quick story, and then I, I want you to answer the question. I remember years ago, remember the Domino's food tampering video from years ago where there were employees putting cheese up their nose and very unsavory things, right?

And Domino's really came down like wrath of God. You know, they found the employees, they fired them. The CEO did a video, and there was like... They did a lot. And I remember hearing the Domino's marketing chief, I've told this story like 1,000 times to colleagues. I remember hearing them speak at an event, might've been Association of National Advertisers or, or something else, and, and his quote was, "We didn't know if we were putting out a candle with a fire hose."[00:19:00]

And that to me is, I just can't get over how apt that is. So in the context of that story and in the context of your book, what is a crisis and why does it matter that we can interpret whether it is or not?

Bradley Akubuiro: Yeah. Well, look, I think that's such a really, really great, uh, way of thinking about this because it's so hard to know, uh, particularly in the initial moments.

Um, I, I wanna come back to how you can figure out in a second, but to define your, your, your question around what crisis is, it is something that impacts your license to operate or your ability to operate, and usually within a strict near-term time period, right? If this thing goes wrong, this thing blows up, is it going to keep me from being able to operate within the next 90 days?

Um, and I typically put it into a few camps. You know, does it invite, uh, policy or regulatory scrutiny in a meaningful, disruptive way? Does it impact your market or commercial, uh, commercial, uh, [00:20:00] context? Uh, or does it impact your employees' ability to get their job done? Uh, and so if you think about it from one of those perspectives and it doesn't do one of those things, I think there is a large onus on you to figure out whether there is an engagement that is required at the level that you're describing with Domino's.

Um, but if it has the ability to do one of those things, it really is incumbent upon us to move swiftly and decisively to shut it down.

Anne Green: Yeah, that's a great answer, and I know you distinguish between that and things that are an issue, and there are many, many issues. I mean, the, the arrange and diverse array of issues, the issues landscape, as people might say, is huge.

But it was helpful to me in reading the book of really asking myself and interrogating again, what is, um, both the quantitative and qualitative, uh, ways I assess what is truly moving into a crisis? And h- and, and it's, it's obviously moves back and forth. You know, it can evolve from an issue to a crisis.

Bradley Akubuiro: That's exactly right. And it is worth noting, I mean, as you're [00:21:00] trying to figure out what are the things that have the likelihood of being able to do that, it's so important to take stock of what your vulnerabilities are. You know, we all have them, both as organizations and as individuals, and the key is not to, to become perfect.

It's not possible to become perfect, right? But we have to understand where those vulnerabilities exist and then figure out what are the things that I need to do, A, to inoculate against them, but B, when a, uh, what is a critical action is taken against your organization, whether it is true or it is false or it is self-inflicted, um, to determine whether this is gonna become a crisis or not.

Typically speaking, the things that fall into an area of vulnerability for you, um, those direct hits, those have the tendency to become not only crises, but often very fast-moving, um, and have some virality to them. Uh, those that strike you in places where you're strong are less likely to become that. And so we really have to take really true stock [00:22:00] of, of who we are, uh, and, and where we have those vulnerabilities to understand, you know, where is the damage likely to be done.

Anne Green: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. You know, I-- when you and I were preparing for this, I was thinking about the landscape today and, and I've been watching obviously these lawsuits regarding social media, the infinite scroll, and, and that phrase came back to me, the infinite scroll of crisis or the infinite scroll of issues, and it feels like that, and it's not just social media feeds anymore.

And you know, I, I think that one of the learnings that jumped out to me, 'cause I absolutely... I mean, we do in media training, we say, "Know what is not your story." You phrased it not, I have the notes here, "Not every crisis that impacts you is your cross to bear or your thing to carry." You talk about the trap here for, um- For comms folks and their leaders, I mean, I think it's very easy to get caught up, right?

Bradley Akubuiro: It's so easy. It's extremely easy to get caught up. Um, and I will say there, there are, you know, maybe two stories that I would tell about this, and, and one [00:23:00] I think, um, is, uh, apropos to kind of some of the United Technology stuff we were talking about a minute ago. Um, we had a, uh, very powerful senator. The book is, uh, uh, quick to art- articulate kind of a little bit more detail on this, but I hope you'll read it.

Uh, the, uh, uh, senator had called out the company from the Senate floor in a floor speech. Uh, and instantly, as you can imagine, every leader in, in the company was like, "Hey, we gotta do something about this." Uh, and the reality is when we actually looked at the data, um, in that particular instance, uh, in that particular format, uh, there was a huge spike in terms of conversation around it that lasted probably about 15 minutes, and then it dropped off.

And we did not actually have any more engagement almost at all, um, from those who were within kind of the target orbit of stakeholders we had to care about in the Beltway in that moment. Uh, and so had we [00:24:00] leaned in and had a statement or tried to correct the record or do something meaningful in that moment in response, not only would we not have helped the situation, but we would've actually added fuel to the fire and created a news cycle where there was none.

Uh, and so it's so important to understand, it doesn't mean you don't have any engagement. Of course, we wanted to work with the senator's office and, and do these things behind the scenes. But when you're thinking about what engagement is required, you wanna match it to the level of risk that is posed by the action in front of you.

Um, and so, you know, I, I, I, I will say in context of today, almost every company that's moving products is impacted by the shutdown of the Strait of Hormuz. Um, I, I wrote this article for the, uh, Economic Times of India, uh, about 10 days ago or so, um, or I shouldn't say 10 days ago 'cause we're gonna do this later, so let me take a step back on this.

I wrote this article for the Economic Times of India recently that talked about the challenge that a lot of companies are [00:25:00] facing, which is your ability to move products around the world is impacted significantly by a war that's going on in a region that you may not operate in, you may not have employees in, you may not actually have any engagement that's direct in, and yet your supply chain, your ability to logistically move your products around the world has been impacted significantly.

And so you have a question that you have to answer internally, is this something that I need to communicate around? And the answer may be yes to some stakeholders. They may wanna understand why your prices have increased. They may wanna understand why delivery windows have increased. They may wanna understand what are you doing to create additional sources, um, so that you are not, uh, having so much exposure, uh, in this instance.

Uh, and you have to decide what you're gonna communicate and when you're gonna communicate, or if you are gonna communicate at all. You know, reporters will often reach out to a bunch of companies and say, "How is this [00:26:00] impacting you?" And the fact that they've reached out to you, and the fact that there are impacts, does not mean that it's your story to own and that you need to have something to say about it.

But the important thing is really understanding what is your level of exposure, and which of your stakeholders are gonna care significantly about hearing from you. And if the best way to reach them is individually, do that, but if the best way to reach them in a meaningful, uh, and, and kind of trust-building, uh, uh, way is to do something that's a little bit more public, then consider your options for that.

But you have to weigh them, frankly, on a case-by-case basis with these types of issues.

Anne Green: I, I love the way you're looking at this discussion, because I think you and I have both seen, and, you know, I'm not a rocks in glass houses person. I know how difficult it is to operate. I've, you know, hundreds and hundreds of clients like you have in, in every different kind of situation.

But I think it-- there's so many crisis plans out there where they're a RACI, you know, who's responsible, who's accountable. There are risk grading, you know, [00:27:00] frameworks. Um, all of the tools are there, all the players, and yet what really happens in the moment in a very qualitative and human way when you get into the idea of risk grading, and where does it, the bias of that sort of, you know, body feeling of com- getting attacked, you know, each individual and the, the leadership, like what it feels in your mind and body, and the anxiety it creates to be attacked, and how responsive you are to that.

And I feel like a lot of that discipline either hasn't been practiced to the depth it needs to and really unpacked, like really unpacked. What does it mean to grade risk? What does it mean to understand that there are issues coming at us, but not all of them are commensurate? And when does our best quantitative and qualitative data and best practices tell us that reacting will help, you know, mitigate or reacting will actually amplify?

I mean, these things are just not really practiced and discussed at the depth. And I see you smiling 'cause I know you're on the same [00:28:00] page. But I, I, I hope that this is a clarion call, you know, to folks who engage with your book to think about how nuanced these things are, right?

Bradley Akubuiro: Yeah. Well, I, I hope so too.

You know, the reality is it is extremely difficult to do these things. Um, and so, you know, to your point on, on rocks and glass houses, we all have to have a little bit of grace, um, not only within our own organizations, but for others. Uh, that said, there are ways that we can get really sharp at doing these things and, and frankly, the number one way is to practice it.

Um, you have to put the scenarios together where you feel, hey, if this happens, it's gonna be a real issue for us. A lot of these scenarios are knowable, not all of them. A lot of them are knowable, though. And so to really put people in these simulations, recreate the stress, I specifically encourage people to, to take the tone that you would take in a real crisis, because we know we can be very, very polite in simulations, and in the moment it doesn't feel that way in the [00:29:00] room.

And so let's actually kind of put on the, the, the mask and do it the way that we would do it, because you'll need to if you wanna be able to break the s- the, the thing before, uh, the moment comes where you have to.

Anne Green: Yeah, I wrote a piece a number of years ago about that famous quote from the, the CEO of BP at the time with the Gulf, you know, um, the, the well, you know, that was polluting the Gulf.

And, and he said, "No one wants my life back more than me." And that, that's maybe not exactly the comment. He was just ripped apart and all the comms leaders were like, "How could you do that?" And I wrote a piece about the fact of we need to pay attention, and I'm not saying it was great, it's not great, but that was a real human reaction.

And what you need to do as a senior comms leader is to understand that emotional and psychological aspects of your leader and yourself and what happens under pressure. So that, that's just me really co-signing. There, there is that deeply human aspect to this, and before we again throw those rocks, we have to say, "Wow, that was a really honest reaction.

Not [00:30:00] optimal, but, but very real, so what do we do about that?"

Bradley Akubuiro: You know, I teach these classes, uh, for executive education classes amongst others, uh, over at Northwestern University. And, and one of the things that I do on a regular basis is ask communications leaders who come in to take these classes to actually sit in the hot seat.

Um, we ask them to actually get in a studio that's a fully operational studio and sit behind the desk, uh, with a broadcast anchor, whether that's myself or, or an actual, you know, person in the broadcast media orbit now, and we grill them. We ask them the tough questions after we've had that, you know, opportunity to put the scenarios together.

And they usually don't see it coming 'cause they're expecting somebody else to come in and do it. But asking them to sit there and do this, I will tell you, to a person, the feedback is always, "I am so glad I had the opportunity to see what it feels like with the lights in my eyes and the grilling questions coming, because the thing that I said is not at all what I thought I [00:31:00] would've said.

And of course, if I was sitting on, you know, the other side of the desk, I'd say, 'How could that person say that?' Well, now I know." Um, and I think it's just so important for us to understand what it feels like, to your point, to sit in those seats as we're counseling people. Um, and that knowledge, I think, makes us better communicators and better leaders.

Anne Green: Yeah, and Troy, you know, in my role as a, as CEO of our firm and a spokesperson, but also a, a trainer, um, and a coach, I love taking my own medicine, and I try to tell people that I do. So I wanna go to an area that, to me, I've been thinking about for a number of years, and, and you brought up some very-- I'm looking at my notes here.

The idea of unprovable truth, that we're in this place. I remember saying to colleagues years ago, if we're in a pro- post-truth situation here where we're gonna interpret it, confirmation bias, whatever is convenient, and also it w- that was even well before the channel, you know, algorithmic issue where people are only seeing...

It's like we're in alternate realities. [00:32:00] You know, how do we do our job as communicators that we usually use fact and to shape perception? But the unprovable truth to me got even more interesting when you talked about building trust. It's obviously foundational for organizations. But you had a couple quotes here, "Trust is the real moat," and that, "Truth and trust are different currencies.

In crisis, facts are important, but trust is king." I think this really gets at the heart of what we're struggling with as leaders, as communications professionals, and also broader in society. Tell me what that means, that truth and trust are different currencies.

Bradley Akubuiro: Yeah. When I think about truth, I think about kind of the concepts of, of facts and what's, you know, reality from your perspective and, and, you know, facts win arguments, but trust actually wins you the benefit of the doubt, and the benefit of the doubt is actually what saves you in situations where the story moves faster than the facts, right?

And I think [00:33:00] we're in a moment right now where so many times the truth is something that we are searching for, we are seeking it out, we are going to our, if we're a manufacturing company, going to our engineering teams and trying to understand what went wrong where, how do we identify what the root cause is.

And all of those things are extremely important, and our stakeholders expect us to get to them. But what they need to know even before they know that is that you have the situation under control, and they can trust you to manage through it. If you can't convince them of that, then you fail way before you get to the root cause, right?

And what I think is really important, and you alluded to this even in the question, is, you know, studies show that about 70% of Americans are only consuming news sources that reaffirm their own worldview. And so if you're now trying to figure out what are the ways that I can talk to somebody to meet them where they're at, it isn't gonna be by winning the argument through facts.

It is gonna be about actually talking to them in terms that they can [00:34:00] understand, um, and that they will be able to say, "All right, this person gets how I see the world enough so that I'm willing to hear them out." And that ability to have a conversation with people is something that I think is becoming more and more of a lost art form.

But it's not only true for us as individuals as we're engaging in our lives, it is true for businesses and organizations writ large that need to figure out how to communicate with a populace that is so divided, and frankly, more divided than it's been at any other time in our contemporary history.

Anne Green: It's so helpful to tease these apart because I do think those of us who've been in this field a long time, or even younger folks too, client side, agency side, whatever, there's this deep feeling of, "This is a fact.

This book is solid. Look, it's real. You know, this is, this is a real thing. Why aren't you listening to me?" And, and we've all now very, very much understood the polarization of channels, the impact of algorithms. I th- I, I believe social media, AI too, it's the best and worst of us. Humans [00:35:00] create it. It's-- I always joke it's utopia, garbage fire, and everything in between.

So just because It's social media and the algorithm doesn't mean it's all bad, but I think we are seeing the impact of it. Um, AI is gonna make that worse, as you've said. It's, AI is going to be incredible in so many ways, and I'm dealing with this with my own staff and with our clients, and we as a society, that mental load of AI, dealing with both the amazing opportunity and the really dark stuff.

As we're recording this podcast, we're seeing growing evidence of just a lot of negativity in the populace as a whole, and we have a lot of understandings of probably where that came from. The narratives out there are rough. But I do wanna build on this polarization question, because we're gonna put these pieces together, which is interpreting a crisis, interpreting our vulnerabilities, knowing what is critical for you to operate in a s- in a situation that's highly polarized and where people may or may not be accepting a truth, and you have to build trust.

So, [00:36:00] you know, no big deal, Bradley, you're gonna solve this for me right now. But you said at one point, "Conviction pays. Waffling costs everything." And another quote, "People can accept disagreeing with you, but they never accept hypocrisy." So talk a little bit about that, 'cause I think it goes to this question of knowing your values and, and standing in them, but I, I think that's very hard today for organizations.

Bradley Akubuiro: It's extremely hard for organizations. It's extremely hard for people. Um, you know, you and I both appreciate kind of the human psychological elements of the craft, right? And I think it's so important for people to continue to use that as a foundation as they think through so much of this, because, you know, that, that whole point on hypocrisy, I think, is really about human nature.

You know, people actually do find that those who they disagree with, they may trust more, um, because they know that you are solid in your conviction. I, I say this to people all the time, but you actually have to figure out where you stand and then actually stand there. [00:37:00] And the reason for that is because when people see you do that on a regular basis, then they know what to expect from you.

They may not always like it, but they know what to expect from you, and there's a level of respect that comes from that that doesn't exist with people who think you're gonna say whatever you need to say in order to win their vote or to win their, um, uh, appeal. And so I think that's really, really critical in this moment when people end up on so many different sides of these issues.

Um, whatever the issue may be and whatever side they choose, they want to know that you are a person or an organization that's gonna stand by what you say, and that your actions and your words are gonna be aligned, and they're gonna be aligned over time. And so, you know, I, I, you know, you can point to so many different examples, uh, of where this has been true.

I think a great example is Target. You know, we have seen an organization that was known for bringing Black-owned brands into their stores and giving them spaces on shelves, you know, having real strong support for LGBTQ audiences, [00:38:00] um, and found, you know- a rough spot, a hard moment, uh, in the new administration, uh, towards the beginning of 2025, where they scaled back some of their diversity, equity, inclusion policies.

Now, I don't think that the act of scaling it back as a retailer itself was the issue. There were several other organizations that did this at the same time. But it was the fact that people had known them for being an organization that supported those communities where it felt more like a betrayal. And so what I think organizations can take away from that, and, and if you look just, you know, to say it out loud, you know, about $12 billion of lost value later, what you can take away from that is that people will watch what you do more than they watch what you say.

And so when you are a communicator in these rooms and you're telling the business case, uh, for what is a, a, a really difficult decision to stand in your conviction, uh, you do have, [00:39:00] uh, precedent on your side. Organizations that have waffled in these moments are taking massive losses, are experiencing boycotts, are having talent flood out the doors because they can't tell whether leadership is actually aligned with the values that they hold dear.

Uh, and the organizations that are more consistent in those values, whether they are, you know, the Hobby Lobbies or the Chick-fil-As of the world, or the, you know, Patagonias or the Ben & Jerry's of the world or everything in between, those who are consistent and people can read are able to say, "You know what?

This is a place that I can trust." And we come back to that trust question all the time. Um, I would take it one step further and talk about it in terms of resiliency. These are the organizations and the brands that are the most resilient to these changing times because they're the ones that have created, um, a level of, of, of, uh, conviction, um, that builds, uh, that resilience, uh, even when the odds are stacked against you.

Anne Green: Yeah, my colleague Steve Halsey, and we've talked about this a few times on the podcast, the idea [00:40:00] of corporate narrative as an operating system. And we talk about that consistency and not like the little N of narrative, like here's a messaging document, but the big N, that narrative that it's why we operate, it's what we're serving, it's what our values are, it's the whole piece.

I wanna hold on the DEI question, diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, all the different aspects of it, because I think it's a particularly interesting and painful case right now. You know, I want to acknowledge that oftentimes in the past years, as heartening as it was to see these concepts, and I, I think of them as a set of principles and practices, a lens through which we look, but also a way we open the aperture and bring more people in, right?

You know, I think it's often seen as a negative somehow or, or subtractive to people. But it, it's an interesting thing right now because, um, I acknowledge that many companies were not very precise or clear about what they meant by these and, um- When these types of bigger things, whether it's [00:41:00] ESG, DEI, AI, acronyms are, um, just sort of folded into these, like, very flat acronyms, and they're not defined well, and they're sort of applied to things.

It's very easy for it to fall apart. But right now, I think what we're observing, and you've, you've said it really eloquently, is that this is a good case history in where the polarization is really making companies, the way I think about it, is kind of hiding behind the hedge or behind the parapet and sort of keeping their heads down.

And yet there are real consequences to that, and I think it's a good way of examining. We always say to companies and we say to each other, "Hey, you have to know your values and stand in your values." But how do companies do that when it is difficult to do? Um, you know, how do companies overcome their fr- current fear of attacks, say around, you know, something that's been demonized like DEI when their values will tell them that there's aspects of their stakeholders or operations that are, are really material there and real?

I mean, what's, what's your thought about that, [00:42:00] Bradley?

Bradley Akubuiro: Um, there are two ways I can answer this question. Um, I, I think I'm gonna start with the more mechanical answer, uh, and I'll, and I'll go into kind of maybe a, a slightly broader, uh, response that's a bit more philosophical. But, you know, on the mechanical side, I usually use a chart that I think is very instructive.

It's got, you know, uh, the two axes and, and on one axis is alignment, you know, to your strategy, right? Your alignment. And, and two is impact and what you might consider to be interest. And so, you know, traditionally something that's in the top right quadrant on this scale is something that is high alignment to your brand and also, uh, of, of great interest to others.

And the reason why that's a really interesting camp to be in is if you are a company that is, for example, a, a, an aerospace company, uh, and your airliners are looking for lower fuel burn reduction, one, because, you know, the cost implications are pretty significant, particularly in the moment we're [00:43:00] in. Uh, but, uh, also because many of their customers are requesting cleaner air travel in this moment, um, you're gonna continue to talk about sustainability, and it might be a contested subject in some political circles, but it's not gonna be for you because your customer really needs it, and there's a lot of interest in that moment in that space.

And so it has high alignment to your organizational strategy, and so you should be very loud about that. That's a really easy way for you to be able to conceptualize it. Um, whereas for another organization in another industry, that may not be true, and so you may not wanna talk as loudly about it. When we go specifically to the question of diversity, equity, and inclusion, you know, I have traditionally advised people, you know, if this is a value that you have always kind of espoused, you should put it in that top right category, and you should talk about it loudly.

In this particular moment, there are organizations that I've suggested, "Hey, think [00:44:00] about whether you pull that down one quadrant and say, 'We are still going to do these actions,' and you are still going to engage around them because they still have high alignment with your values." But because the interest actually poses more of a risk than an opportunity in this environment, there are times where you should do those things, but do them quietly.

And it goes back into what you were saying and, and we were discussing just a minute ago, which is you need the consistency, uh, of action in order to reinforce the conviction. However, you don't have to shout all of these things from the mountaintops at all times, because putting yourself in that level of risk may actually harm your license to do the thing that you wanna do most.

And so if it's gonna impact your license to operate, what we talked about right from the beginning, you may create a crisis for yourself in a moment where you actually really just wanna be doing the work. And that consistency is what's gonna give people the ability to go back and check your track record on it.

That's the thing you need most. So make sure that it's accessible, but [00:45:00] decide on the volume.

Anne Green: Yeah. I think that's great advice. I like both those, and I love that framework that you shared. Um, we need these simple rubrics just to help us think through things that can feel very subjective and opaque at times.

And, you know, it's like even recently, the idea of standing where you're standing, like know where you stand and then stand there, which I love. I love that phrase. It's a good kind of let, let's bring us back to the center here. You think about something like the Super Bowl halftime show and Bad Bunny that was just recent that-- in our memory.

A lot of noise around that, a lot of polarization, a lot of folks, and also may I say bots and foreign actors trying to capitalize. We are really being gamed in our society right now. There is, I think, not enough awareness of how much of the social media traffic we see that is not human, that is either advertising driven or other actors seeking to divide us.

So I always remind myself of that. You know, it's very hard to get people [00:46:00] focused on this. But there is a lot of pressure on the NFL to, um, to do something, say something and, and it was interesting, you and I both had the chance to hear from the NFL at a recent conference we attended. The head of marketing, very impressive individual, but also very clear on they knew who their audiences were, the Spanish-speaking world, that diaspora is very critical.

The-- he didn't talk about it, but relationships with Roc Nation, with Apple, um, the nature of, of who Bad Bunny is and, and just the stardom and all of those things. It was really interesting to watch that in live time, and the NFL basically kind of saying, "I'm not engaging with this. I'm not engaging with this," even though the pressure, I'm sure there was a lot of anxiety around it.

I mean, I don't know. Uh, is that, is that a good example of some of what we're talking today, about today?

Bradley Akubuiro: Is 1,000% a good example. Um, I, I've worked with the NFL now for about four years or so, um, and almost all around questions of, of diversity, um, equity and inclusion, [00:47:00] and social impact. And so as I've continued to work with them and seen how they operate, one of the things that I really, really respect about them is that they follow the data.

Um, they know that, one, it is a massive growth market for them, uh, in Latin America, and so they really want to be able to say, "All right, we are engaging in ways that are inclusive for that community that we're trying to grow with." Uh, but number two, they also understand this concept we're talking about, uh, when it comes to conviction, right?

The, uh, worst thing that you can do when you're trying to bring new people into the table is say, "We are only next to you when it's convenient," right? Um, you have to either be all in or all out when it comes to these things. And so they said, um, "This is a community we want to work with and be with, uh, and, and we're gonna support them if we're gonna ask them to support us."

And I think that the activities reflected that. And so I think there's a lot that we can all learn, and it really is the concept of tougher in this, you know, faster, messier, tougher piece. You know, not everything is [00:48:00] always gonna be clean or easy, and yes, you're gonna see some backlash, some of it human, some of it not, and we should talk about that piece of it in a second.

Uh, but one way or another, you have to actually have the resolve, uh, to stand by those things even when they're difficult, um, if they reinforce your strategy and your value set.

Anne Green: Yeah, absolutely. I know we're gonna start wrapping up soon. We haven't really talked at all about employees as one of those critical stakeholders.

To me, really they're the number one stakeholder. Um, the idea of how you create that sense of authenticity and trust in leadership. They're gonna look at things you do too and wonder, is this consistent or not? Is there anything you wanted to just say at a high level about employees as a stakeholder in this context before we sort of start to wrap up today?

Bradley Akubuiro: Yeah, I, I would. I would say employees have the ability to either be your greatest ambassadors or your most credible detractors. Uh, and so how you engage with employees has to be not only thoughtful, but you [00:49:00] really have to prioritize them right at the top of your stakeholder set, because nothing happens in your business without them, right?

And so I think about when we were at Boeing, for example, we had about 70,000 employees that were in Washington State, and e- uh, even though, uh, you know, many of the conversations we needed to have were with regulators, with, with customers, uh, were with others, and so we had to think about external communications, uh, very, very seriously.

Figuring out how do we actually engage- With our employees that are on the ground where we were making these planes, uh, was really important, and we didn't leave that just to internal channels. We actually communicated through The Seattle Times, uh, and through others to reach our own employee base because we needed them to hear it.

They need- th- they needed to hear it from us, uh, and maybe most importantly, they needed to hear it through a channel that they knew had credibility, right? A, a reporter, particularly Dominic Yates, Dominic Gates in this case, who was a Pulitzer Prize-winning, uh, [00:50:00] reporter for The Seattle Times, uh, is not going to filter, um, you know, our story in a way that's gonna be favorable to us if it doesn't reflect reality.

Uh, and he's well-sourced, and so when he wrote an article, um, and we were engaged in it, our employees knew that we meant what we were saying. And so you have to find ways that are not only gonna reach your employees, but are gonna help them understand what you really mean in the things that you say.

Anne Green: Yeah, I always think about that drop that falls in the pond and the rings start to radiate outwards. That first one is the employees. And you know, when I started in the field almost, oh God, 33, 34 years ago, it was like internal comms, external comms. Never the twain shall meet, and it was a different media environment.

But also there was, um, an implicit devaluing of internal comms as if it wasn't as sexy or important as external, and I could not be happier that the vast majority of practitioners out there are so far past that point of view now. And I love it. The book is filled with great nuggets like that, like the idea of how are you [00:51:00] using a reporter who might be a voice of critique, but also is trusted.

And you said earlier, you know, sometimes it's those who might be critical that where you can build that trusting relationship. So I think that is so powerful. And I know another thing we talked about when we were preparing for this discussion is it goes so much beyond employee engagement. It really is, again, that license to operate and the enrollment that you have of people in that longer term vision, and how you're by their side and they're by your side when things are harder.

It's never gonna be 100%. You can't please all the people all the time, right?

Bradley Akubuiro: Can't do it. Can't do it. Yeah. That's exactly right.

Anne Green: Yeah. So just to summarize, I mean, again, we could talk forever. I love it, really enjoyed the book. Um, so much good stuff in here. I asked you to start by telling people what to listen for.

So what at the end here are a couple of takeaways or actions that you really wanna encourage? We have a wide range of listeners to take on.

Bradley Akubuiro: Yeah. Well, I'd say in moments of [00:52:00] crisis, which we operate in so much more, uh, than we have in the past, uh, in this particular moment as the world continues to change, a, a few things remain true.

Um, one Speed beats polish, right? Spend the time preparing your organization to move quickly in these moments, and don't always worry about having the perfect answer. Sometimes just moving quickly and saying something that is credible is gonna build the trust you need to give you license to continue in that conversation.

Two, it's really difficult to be neutral in a pressure test. Uh, even saying nothing is equivalent to saying something. And so we've got to figure out where we stand, and we've got to actually stand there. Um, and then I would say number three is just get absolutely ruthless about understanding who your true stakeholders are and being able to understand what they expect from you, both because you've said it in the past as a value of yours, something that is in line with your strategy, and because it's what they [00:53:00] expect of you, um, as a leader, as an actor, um, and, and really try to shape, uh, how you talk about your brand, about your products, about your communities, about your people in terms that are in line with that stakeholder set.

And as we encounter noise, don't let it slow you down. There are times where we've got to get tough and be able to shut that out in order to achieve the goals that we have with a very, very targeted group. And so I think all of us have to think about what are the organizational steps we need to build that level of resistance, but we all can, and we have the tools available to us to do it.

So, uh, thank you, Anne. I, I appreciate so much you giving me the time and the platform to have this conversation with you, and I've just enjoyed it so much.

Anne Green: Oh, it's so much fun, and I look forward to seeing you again soon in real life. So Bradley Akabiro, thank you again. Go and grab the book, everybody.

We'll put the link in the show notes. Thank you for listening to Building Brand Gravity. Check out episodes you've missed. See us on YouTube, see us where you get your podcasts, and we will be back with you soon with [00:54:00] another episode. Thank you.

[00:00:00]

Laura Tomasetti: You know, making listening one of your superpowers is really important. I think a lot of young people feel like they have to come into a room and, and have the answer, the right answer. And then also not being afraid to fail. It's okay to then put your hand up and have the, quote-unquote, "wrong answer." It may not be the wrong answer.

Steve Halsey: Welcome to Building Brand Gravity. I'm Steve Halsey.

Anne Green: And I'm Anne Green. We're grateful to all our listeners who joined us for another episode. And today, as you know, Steve, we're sharing a conversation with two fellow agency leaders to mark a bit of a special occasion. But before we get into that, let's dig into some of the trends that we've both been watching.

And one area I know that's top of mind for both of us is the annual agency ranking season. You know, Steve, with spring comes the rankings.

Steve Halsey: Exactly.

Anne Green: Exactly. O'Dwyer's and [00:01:00] PRWeek both dropped their lists and accompanying coverage, and I felt, I know you and I have talked about this off the pods, Steve, but lots of interesting themes to pick up on there, frankly.

Steve Halsey: Yep. And Provoca, as always, is around the corner. And, and, you know, one of the big takeaways for me, um, 'cause there's always a little bit of the horse race of who's up, who's down, but, uh, but I think one of the things that's interesting is that while growth has slowed across many parts of the industry, one thing that is not slowing down is the pace of change.

You know, when you really think about it, in the current environment, agencies are really being asked to do more than ever, move faster, integrate deeper, operate much closer to the, to the client's business. And so what's interesting for me, and, and I know you get into this a little bit, uh, in your discussion that we're gonna get to today, is that the firms that are performing their best aren't necessarily the biggest or the most specialized.

They're the ones who [00:02:00] figured out how to evolve alongside their clients. They're the ones breaking down silos, bringing strategy and execution closer together and, and really kind of stepping into that advisor role. So when I look through the listings, uh, that you were just talking about, you know, I think about firms like Prosek, Praytell, Walker Sands, RBB, ThreeSixty, and of course GNS, but, but all these firms were up in the past year in the PR week rankings, but all of them are really focused on really evolving alongside and ahead of our clients.

And, you know, they're part of the peer sets that we talk to on a regular basis. And I think for me, a- and you, you probably agree, this, this matches what we're seeing in terms of this shift from agencies as service providers to really being operating partners, right? From a client's perspective, helping them navigate complexity in real time, and really the ones and the agencies that are leaning into and embracing AI as a [00:03:00] value-creating catalyst redefining their workflows, but staying grounded through this all and strong narrative thinking, I think those are the ones that are really seeing strong growth right now.

Anne Green: Yeah, actually the conversation I'm about to have, we, we talk about being so much deeper in the business as a comms PR integrated agency than maybe 30 years ago or so, and I couldn't agree more with the theme of resilience, Steve. I've frankly been pretty amazed, um, with all that has been coming at our clients, you know, at our group, which has the two agencies and our sector as a whole.

As many of our listeners know, we work across a lot of sectors, so advanced manufacturing, agribusiness, healthcare, food, professional services, and more than that. And each sector has been hit with, um, I mean, to put it mildly, significant challenges over the past 16 to 17 months, and that has had consequences.

But I'm pretty amazed at how nimble and [00:04:00] strategic our clients have been in tackling challenges while also pivoting to areas of upside. It, it's quite inspiring. You know, it gives, it gives me a lot of hope, and it gives me a lot of energy and enthusiasm. Another topic I wanted to bring up before we move on to the rest of the podcast is, um, the trend that we've all been seeing, which is pressures on members of the C-suite.

So we've seen this reported in numerous outlets, Fortune, Wall Street Journal, many more. There's a lot of movement in the CEO role right now. Lots of prominent longtime chief executives are stepping down. Many of those being tapped to take the top spot are actually internal replacements, or they're being pulled from experienced members of the boards of directors as opposed to, say, an outside search, which is also very interesting.

And I think some experts are noting that in a time of such seismic change, you need individuals who can fully operate on day one. The challenges are too great, as is the need to move both fast and [00:05:00] strategically. I think probably Apple's succ- you know, successor to Tim Cook is an excellent example of that.

And that changing of the guard, so to speak, certainly seems to extend down and throughout the C-suite. I'm thinking of, you know, the ones that we may be closer to, chief communications officers, chief marketing officers, new senior technology or AI roles and things like that.

Steve Halsey: Yeah. And but I, I think one of the things that, that's interesting about that too is, uh, with change comes opportunity, and I think one of the more encouraging shifts I think we're seeing right now is really this continued rise of women in top leadership roles.

Um, you know, we're really seeing a lot more women stepping into the chief communications officer position, more women leading agencies, and frankly, more women really shaping the strategic direction of their organizations at the higher level, kind of what you're talking about. So with some of that turnover comes the opportunity to really rethinking, and I think that really matters because the role of communication [00:06:00] specifically, as w- we've advocated on this podcast, has never been more central to business performance.

So as we're thinking about reputation, trust, and narrative becoming more core to how companies operate and grow, it's really those leaders that connect those dots the best that I think are stepping forward and are gonna succeed through all this turnover and change. So Again, while there's a lot of change happening at the C-suite, there's also a real opportunity for CCOs and agency leaders, and I think it's a great opportunity to translate all this into more diverse and more dynamic leadership across our industry.

Anne Green: Well, that's really an excellent transition to my podcast conversation with two stellar leaders who bring many years of experience and wisdom, I would say, to their roles as the heads of agencies. I was talking with Beth Cleveland, she is the, um, CEO of Praytell, became CEO last year, and Laura Thomasetti, CEO of 360pr.

She was the [00:07:00] founder. They're 25 years old this year, which is amazing. And the occasion for this conversation is a really nice one, which is that myself and both of them were all named to the 2026 Women of Distinction list by PRWeek, which ties back to your women in leadership theme, Steve.

Steve Halsey: Yeah, and, and for those, uh, of our podcast, uh, listeners and viewers who aren't as familiar, PRWeek's Women of Distinction recognition, it's really about celebrating female leaders who have made meaningful impact on the industry through their work, through their leadership, commitment to advancing.

So this year, um, like the couple that it's, it's been in place, it really is a highly select group of leaders that are joining a pretty esteemed network of, of some amazing female practitioners in our industry. So it's really, I mean, it is, it is quite an honor. And, and here's what I also think's important about the Women of, of Distinction and the process and the selection that they do.

It's not just about business success. I [00:08:00] mean, that's part of it, but it really is about influence, it's about impact, how are you shaping the future of the profession, how these leaders are mentoring the next generation, how they're helping raise the standards of what great communication looks like. So, so, Anne, to see you along with Beth and Laura, I mean, all really strong female leaders that I advire- admire, and I'm fortunate enough to know you all as both friends, as colleague, it's incredibly well deserved.

And I think when you look at the performance of the three firms that the three of you lead, it really speaks to this broader moment of the industry where leadership isn't just being defined by results, it really is by impact and example.

Anne Green: Well, thank you, Steve. You know, and your support's been amazing here.

And, uh, the three of us as, as you'll hear, for listeners who stay on for the conversation, we really talked about this being a collective thing. You know, nobody gets to senior leadership, as you well know, in this field alone. And, you know, I always try to have a [00:09:00] balanced perspective when it comes to awards.

Um, you don't wanna over-index, but I agree this one does feel special for that reason. So when Women of Distinction list was announced, it got me thinking what a perfect occasion to get together with a few others who are honored to talk about a broad range of issues And that's the fun of our podcast, right?

So we got to get into things like how are we viewing this moment in our industry and beyond? What does it take to sustain and build that leadership over time? Who are our mentors, and how are we individually paying that back in service to others, including how we're counseling younger people and younger women who may be interested in this field, um, as well as other levels of employees and staff and people we meet.

And then the last piece, how we continue to grow as professionals, as people. And Beth and Laura were wonderful. We had such a good time. I'm sure our listeners will enjoy this conversation as much as I did. So let's get into it. So I'm thrilled to have on Building Brand Gravity two friends and amazing leaders in [00:10:00] our industry.

And Beth and Laura, welcome. So glad to see you both.

Beth Cleveland: Thank you. Thank you.

Anne Green: So I'm gonna embarrass you with a quick intro, and then I'll ask you to tell me what I missed. So Beth, Beth, for our listeners, if you don't know her, check her out, 20 years of experience in communications. She founded and ran her own firm, Elm Public Relations, for a number of years before merging with how you may know her today, which is Praytell, back in 2013.

And, um, wow, Praytell has really grown since then, Beth. I mean, 170-some employees, multiple offices, but most importantly, you took on the CEO role in 2025, so congratulations on that. And I've had the pleasure of getting to know you through our PR Council CEO cohort, and it has been a delight, so welcome, Beth.

And then Laura, we've known each other for many years now. We're trying to figure out 10 years, 9 years, 12. I, I was thinking it was longer 'cause I feel like I've known you forever. Such a trusted friend. Also another CEO cohort person that, uh, that I [00:11:00] definitely see in a circle of trust. But Laura started in DC working at some very large agencies, big clients, founded 360 PR+ in 2001, where you remain CEO today and a partner.

And congratulations, 25 years this year, Laura. That's a... Can you believe that it's been 25 years? Some days I can. But thank

Laura Tomasetti: you. Thank you. Yeah, I,

Anne Green: yeah. It's, it's, I mean, I... One of the things we're gonna talk about today is sustaining a career, sustaining an agency, um, the relationships we have with clients and others, and I, I just think that's really amazing.

But just to add a bit more to my top line bios- What did I miss? What's one fun fact from each of you, and anything I missed from your bios. So Beth, go ahe- go ahead. Anything fun you wanna share with our listeners?

Beth Cleveland: Okay. All right. Fun fact. Well, you... That was an amazing bio, thank you, I appreciate it. And, um, uh, I guess my fun fact, uh, since so much of Pray Tell's work today is consumer centric, really doing kind of like creative centric campaign [00:12:00] work, um, I actually started out in high tech science communications, which is just, you know, really, really kind of an interesting way to kind of enter the industry and cut your teeth.

Working with folks like Walt Mossberg and Stuart Elliott and others that really helped shape, um, how I approached, uh, the world of, of public relations. So, uh, that was really, really fascinating, kind of a interesting way in. And then to move to the consumer side, I was like, "Wow, okay, this is, this is like a different thing," but some great foundational elements that really, really kind of kicked things off.

And then my other little fun fact, which is more just fun, less bio, uh, I always have semi-sweet dark chocolate chips in my top drawer. My staff love it, uh, laugh about it, but it is like, don't overthink it, it's a great afternoon pick me up, and, uh, always my go-to.

Anne Green: I love that. And I also have little mixed nuts and dark chocolate in my drawer, so I think we share that.

Oh, my God. It's

Beth Cleveland: just like you gotta have it, especially when we get stuck on calls. So, yeah.

Anne Green: Exactly. Exactly. So how about you, [00:13:00] Laura? Anything I missed and any fun facts you wanna share for our listeners? Thanks for the intro, first of all. So great to be here to talk with,

Laura Tomasetti: with you, Ann, and you, Beth, too. But, um, I think just one, one thing that I carry with me as part of my career, I spent a little bit of time in-house and for Hasbro, uh, and then also for a nonprofit organization.

And I think that that perspective was help- it's been helpful informing what I do at Three Sixty, and taking that Three Sixty approach and just sort of understanding a little bit more about how our clients navigate their day. Um, I spent a lot of time in meetings, and like thought agencies, I always thought by, about my agency as having the fun part of the job.

Uh, I loved my time in-house and, and have stayed close with a lot of friends and colleagues from Hasbro, and Hasbro was actually our first client, so it is, it is important to me, um, to mention. And I guess on a fun fact, uh, let's see. Um, I met my husband in PR, [00:14:00] so we mentioned, you mentioned that I started working, uh, for some agencies in DC.

I worked for Omnicom agencies, and he and I worked at Porter Novelli together for a couple of years. And he came out of news. He was working at CNN in DC and, and pretty quickly decided that PR was not for him. But it's, it's been nice over the years because I, because he's had that time on, on our side of things, um, I don't, you know, I don't have to explain things Uh, ad nauseam.

Uh, you know, when it's been a, a long day or when I have a particular challenge, he seems to have some insight to what we do, which is nice.

Anne Green: That is nice. Um, as, as some listeners know, my husband is a professional musician. He's a drummer, so our worlds are very different, but he is such a proponent of everything we're doing, and he's so engaged.

But it's nice also to have a spouse who gets what you're doing. Um, and I love what you said, Laura, about I've been... Kim Sample of PR Council and I both call each o- each other, like, [00:15:00] agency animals. I've been an agency person the whole time. But I think it's amazing what you're identifying about that empathy and compassion that we need to help our agency side people understand of what it's like on the corporate side, and the kind of relentlessness of that day.

So I, I think it's wonderful that you can give that context. And, and speaking of context, the reason I gathered us today is because of the, um, the PRWeek Women of Distinction list that came out this year. And congratulations to you both. I was very honored to be named as well. And there's so many amazing women on the list.

And I was thinking about the fact that what, um, what a great opportunity to get a few of us together. You know, I've known you both for a while now. And, and this one felt a little bit meaningful. Our industry is awards crazy. Love awards. And some, you know, sometimes you're like, "Hmm, it's another award, okay."

But this one did feel meaningful in terms of it acknowledging longevity of leadership, giving back, sustained. Um, to me, it [00:16:00] meant as much, I think, for our, my group and firms as for me. But I thought, "Let's get together and talk about it." So for each of you, maybe Laura, w- what does it mean to you, and then Beth, I'd love to hear from you, too, th- this whole Women of Distinction piece?

Laura Tomasetti: Thanks, and it, it is an honor to be, uh, in the same class as the two of you. And I think, first and foremost, I just, I think it's great that PRWeek creates this space to tell our stories and, and the stories of other women leaders across the agency. And it is a reminder of how many amazing women are in this, in this, uh, industry.

Um, so that's, that's, I think, first and foremost. And there's a personal element, of course. Uh, I, I have been from a, an agency standpoint, and I felt like you, this is, this is very much for the, this is not just my win, this is agency w- agency's win, particularly in our 25th year. It felt, it felt really meaningful.

Uh, and it's not about egos, right? Because we don't do this by ourselves. We do this with a lot of people around us. And [00:17:00] so I, I, I am thankful for my work family, but also the support of my, my own family. And, um, in particular, just want to mention my mom, who, um, who passed during the pandemic. Um, but you know, for many years, she was really my champion.

And, and when I was growing up, it wasn't about, like you know, "I really want you to get married." It was, she always assumed that that would, that would happen, that I would find a great partner, but it was very much about the career. Um, and you need to have a career. You need to, you know, do something that you love, and I think for, for women of her generation, that was just super important because some of them had that and some of them did not.

Um, so shout out to my mom. I

Anne Green: love that. I love that. I remember starting at Burson-Marsteller, I met some women who were kind of two generations ahead who really sacrificed a ton to fight- Mm-hmm ... their way into a seat that wasn't just a secretary. So that's a very recent memory, and I, I love that kind of advocacy.

What does it mean to you, Beth, you know, s- seeing yourself on this list? Um,

Beth Cleveland: well, Laura, so [00:18:00] well said. Um, I will add to that in that, um, I think the timing of this as I've ... I was president of Praytell for 12 and a half years, doing a lot of, of the same job I'm doing now. But moving into the CEO position in August and, you know, having recognition like this so early on is certainly, um, such a nice confidence boost and just nice recognition for, as you said, Laura, the whole agency and just all the work that goes into where we are, you know, as a mid-size agency.

So that has been really lovely. Um, I did send it to my mom as well. A very proud mom out there who, of course, couldn't log in, and there was a whole, whole ... You know, we figured it out. But, um, but you know, it is funny, even at, at our age now, I'm still text my parents, uh, remind my husband I'm distinct. I remind him daily and, and that is, uh, really sinking in, too.

So, uh, but no, such an honor and, and I think it's, it was really fun to read everybody's stories. I was [00:19:00] picking up little tidbits and learning, uh, reading all of the great kind of insights from, from the folks recognized.

Anne Green: I wanted to hear both of your reflections. I mean, it's amazing to have two experts like yourself.

The more of us that bring our views to the table, the more we understand what, what is happening in a very uncertain time. So when you look at the industry right now, a lot of change going on, a lot of consolidation, which we've seen waves of before. Mm. Huge technology shift, geopolitical. I mean, this, this crazy world right now, right?

So what, for each of you, and maybe Beth we'll start with you, what feels very similar and recognizable about our industry today versus what, what feels like real change? And, you know, answer that however you'd like to.

Beth Cleveland: Well, I'm gonna save AI for, for ... I'm gonna put a pin in AI for, for the moment 'cause that would be the, the first thing on my mind.

But, um, I have been thinking a lot over, I would say, the last- two, three years on, like, my early part of my career and what are kind of the similarities or patterns that [00:20:00] we can learn from in the current state of change, and specifically thinking about media consumption and the shift from, you know, kind of what's happening on the publisher level and reporters becoming, uh, fewer and fewer.

But it is kind of taking a new shape, right? Like, more social first, new emerging platforms. It's video first. It's people, you know, people reporting on the news, um, uh, reporting on the reporters. But, uh, all of that, like, looking back at the shift from print to digital and kind of, I looked a lot at, like, okay, not the same, but yet a big change, right?

Or it felt like a big change to clients when you're on the agency side and you're like, "Look, USA Today is not gonna report this in print. I'm so- we know this is your big launch, but they can do digital. What do you think? Here's why it's interesting. It will be logged on the internet forever." And, um, at the time r- our clients didn't want that, right?

They wanted the, like, really thing you could hold and hang it up in the office. Um, and I remember, I think about that now [00:21:00] in terms of how do we give clients confidence? How do we look at those small wins? We gotta test and learn. Uh, 'cause you can see things evolving into, into something new. And, and so I, yeah, I've drawn on a lot of that from kind of those patterns.

I also think, um, just the resiliency of the media industry, I'm continued to just ... I think it is such a resilient industry, and we are in such an information overload, uh, you know, kind of era, and I think we're gonna need trusted sources, and that will continue to take different shapes. But yet there are kind of these thematics where you're like, "Okay, yes, like I can see this evolving into a new way.

It's not scary. It's actually just new and different." And, um, and we can kind of help bring our clients along for the ride. So, those are kind of some of the similarities I'm looking at. Um, so maybe I'll stop there and see if, Laura, you have any other kind of adds.

Laura Tomasetti: I'm glad that you started with media and, and, and that you m- you made the point that it

'Cause we, we keep talking about the media landscape [00:22:00] really fast evolving, but it really has been changing for decades with the move to digital. And there's, from the legacy publishers, es- you know, especially, like, if you look at the Times content, the content is better and better and better. There is so much there, um, to explore, uh, and, and just to, you know, to explore in more personalized ways, right?

So, it's not just given to us in sort of one big lot. We can kind of say, "I wanna go, I wanna look at travel," or, "I wanna look at well." Um, and then all the different, you know, the different newsletters, Substack. It's, you know, it's, it's tough. I, I think our, our people here always sort of bemoan, like, there's something that comes across and XYZ legacy publisher has, uh, you know, consolidated or shuttered or, you know, is moving staff.

Um, but there's also, you know, there's the rise of Substack, and it's been kind of incredible. So there's a lot of opportunity, I think, in the current media landscape, and that, that's been good to see. Um, I think we're a lot [00:23:00] closer to the business as an industry today as in terms of our roles than, than, you know, 20 years ago when we were starting out, or even longer ago when I was starting out.

It's, you know, it's not just press. Um, it's, it's more of a range of stakeholders. I think there's more recognition by, as we know, by executives. I know we were talking about this in preparation for today, that there's much more recognition for communicators' roles in their organizations, and most organizations that are worth their salt are really prioritizing communications, internal and external.

So I think that's really good. Um, you know, one thing that's, that's different that is challenging is the speed at how fast things are moving. Um, and sometimes a, a stories int- stories are traveling really fast, and sometimes that's a good thing, and sometimes it's challenging and we're having to manage it, um, and manage a response.

But I mean, those are some of the things I think that, you know, that ... And maybe I focus more on really what's changed, but, uh, there's

Anne Green: just a lot of good, too. Yeah, [00:24:00] it's interesting. A future guest we're gonna have on the podcast, Brack, uh, Bradley Acero, who's at Bully Pulpit, he just came out with a book called Faster, Messier, Tougher about crisis, and that'll be a great conversation, sort of a precursor.

Listeners, watch for the link and check it out. Um, he's brilliant at this. But that speed issue, you know, it's, it, and, and how we deal with that. Now he's talking about it more in the issue of crisis, but also understanding how you live your values in that moment, and a lot of stuff we're all dealing with with our clients.

But I love that we spent time talking about the media landscape. In some ways I feel like, um, some things that are old are new again, which is the- Mm-hmm ... focus on human relationship, understanding who real trusted sources are, and that's from the journalist side, but also journalists back to communicators and companies.

Different ways to have voices. Like many, I'm an obsessive podcast listener, not just a podcast host, and I often joke with people, "If you don't have a podcast, are you even alive right now? Ha ha ha." So, um, it's a funny joke on myself, but [00:25:00] I think that right now that dynamism in helping our younger staff especially understand some of the skills and tools that we had to build, you know, as we were each coming up in a landscape that was different, are very, very much true today.

And I do see ... I, I loved, Beth, when you said putting a pin in AI. I think we're at a point where we can still do that. In the future, the chatbots won't let us. They're like, you know, "You don't put, don't put me in the corner. I'm, I'm in charge now." But all joking aside, you know, I, I think that now some things like generative engine optimization and the ways in which trusted sources and authority are being filtered through large language models, it's a very interesting time to have a dialogue about how we do what we do today.

So I, I love those examples of Of media especially. And, and that old thing, I have heard some people say recently, "Have you just picked up the phone?"

Beth Cleveland: I have such a unimportant anecdote, but I'm gonna share it. Um- Please do. The other day, I was, uh, trying to get in touch with one of [00:26:00] our, uh, one of our technology, uh, platform, um, cli-cus- client service teams, and, uh, I'm on the phone with somebody at the agency, we're chatting through a situation, and I dialed in the representative, um, you know, who we work with all the time, but usually over a video call.

Called him, and I merged him in onto a three-way call, and I was like, "Okay, you've got me, you've got Renee, now you've got this person." And I was like... He was like, "Oh, this is my first ever three-way call." And I was like, "Well, we are all dating ourselves in different ways in this, right, in this moment." But, uh, no, I'm with you on picking up the phone.

There's a lot can be solved from that. Um, but I think also to your point on just, um, as we are bringing people into the industry and kind of this pace of change, and, um, I know we all have FOMO that everybody else has figured it out first and we're all behind, but, um, but really I've been thinking a lot about, like, sustainable change and, um, not burning people out [00:27:00] in trying to adapt, and it's, like, small wins and we're gonna, we're gonna, like, keep having them and get better and better and better and more, uh, it's more rewarding and, and hopefully, uh, you know, we're continuing to kind of learn together.

But it is hard. It's hard to ask people to do one more thing right now and say, "Hey, you're doing your job. The media landscape is rapidly changing. There, you have to go find the sources in new ways, and also can you start using AI and adapt all these other things?" It's very complex. So, um, sustainability of, like, change is high on my list.

Um, and then, yeah, and I, and then I think in terms of the employees, we're talking a lot about just being curious, looking around corners, kind of, uh, really embracing, like, your entrepreneurial sort of spirit in how we operate day to day, and everything is an opportunity to, like, bring fresh eyes. And, and, you know, we've gotta have the way we did it, but there's also, [00:28:00] we've gotta really be kind of looking ahead, too.

So it's a, it is a balance and, and a hard one to strike, and I think we're all, yeah, we're all learning together.

Anne Green: Yeah, it couldn't be more true. It couldn't be... And I think how we carry ourselves and our staff through this is a lot. You know, there's a lot of mental load and a lot of intensity. And, um, we're, I was having that dialogue with one of our SVPs just recently about how do we make this feel like not just one more thing, but I love the idea of small wins.

We, I try to use the term spot celebration, 'cause I feel like people in our- In our context, agency people too especially, we're really good at looking for the problem or the thing we're not doing. I don't know that we're always good at being like, "Hey, that thing we did, we did a good job. Like, yay us," right?

No, I think that's, I think that's right. I mean, I

Laura Tomasetti: think that the small... Celebrating the s- the small wins, the big wins, all the wins, right? And, and I think it, it seems that those small wins, it, it just becomes expected that we're gonna deliver those every day. [00:29:00] Um, and but they add up.

Anne Green: They add up. It's true.

It's true. So as we, as, as many know who might be listening, with the Women of Distinction, PR Week did a very fun Q&A. And it... I remember I spent quite a bit of time with it, um, had to think about it. Uh, then they killed me with the event that's coming up in May. They asked for a walk-on song, so that just melted me down for quite a long time.

That was a lot. So but in terms of the Q&A, one of the questions, I, I just wanna hit the two of you with some of these questions and see what you share, 'cause I, I really loved the responses you had, and it was really meaningful. So what... They talked about mentorship. So give an example of, and maybe Laura you can start, an example of mentorship in your past that really helped you come along in your career, maybe in even ways you didn't expect.

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I,

Laura Tomasetti: I j- I feel like I'm super grateful for the many mentors I've had across my career, men and women. [00:30:00] Uh, and I guess if I, if I, if I think about it, my career in sort of different segments, different phases, different chunks, the, uh, I go back to my time, um, in Washington and early in my career, my, my early 20s, mid-20s, I guess until I was about 30, um, when I was at Porter Novelli.

Um, and I- that was just a really transformative time. I mean, you know, you're coming of age in your 20s, you're starting to figure out, I really... You know, is this something I really wanna do? Is it gonna stick? And it, and it has, obviously. Um, and I was one of those people that I came into an agency, I was really grateful that I started in the agency and, and I, I did leave at one point, but I came back, and I'm really pro-agency.

But I was working across a number of teams, so I had not just one, not just two managers, but four or five. Um, and I was always good at that juggle, um, and sort of figuring out what worked for different people. Uh, and as a result, I, I, I look back at my time at, at Porter, and it was just a really special place in DC.[00:31:00]

Um, I was just on an email chain with Bill Nove- Bill Novelli, and they're talking about another reunion, which is super exciting. Um, but I had three or four mentors there, managers who really were also mentors. Uh, and I learned something different from each one of them and how they worked, and from one, you know, how to, how to navigate a, a room full of people who are much more senior than you.

How to listen more than talk. Um, you know, how to, how to build and sustain relationships. Um, we talked about, you know s- you know, what's sustainable and how do you sustain relationships? So that was a really important time for me. But then years later when I was building ThreeSixty, I had, um... I was fortunate to meet both, uh, Margie Booth, of M Booth, of course, and then Doug Spong, of Carmichael Lynch Spong at the time, and now is CL Relate and part of IPG, and they...

I just admired their organizations for the work that they were doing, but mostly, most of all for the cultures that they had both built that enabled that work, that [00:32:00] creative work. Um, and they were just both really good at building great cultures, agencies, best agencies to work for, best agencies of, agencies of the year.

Uh, and I just, I... They were just very generous with their time with me and, and I like to think that we have emulated at ThreeSixty a lot of what I learned from Doug and Margie and others, and I think this is a really generous industry. Y- you two are an example of that, so.

Anne Green: I love that, Laura. I've said that too.

We compete, you know? We... But I have found leaders in this industry to be tremendously generous, and so I, I couldn't co-sign on that enough. Beth, what are some examples of mentorship in your life as you were coming up? Oh

Beth Cleveland: my

Anne Green: gosh.

Beth Cleveland: I was reflecting on many as, as Laura was talking. Um, I have a couple thoughts.

Well, I was independent for a good chunk of my career, um, and so I frankly learned a lot from my clients, which was interesting. But as a young kind of, uh, entrepreneur, those were [00:33:00] a lot of the kind of executives I interfaced with. So there were some really great executives that just by osmosis and being around, I learned a lot, picked up a lot of things.

Um, but this one woman, Darcy Provo, who was my boss, my very first boss in San Francisco, um, was just the most amazing, uh, generous, uh, leader. She would pull me into her office when I would write a press release or, or, you know, really kind of deliver something to her and she'd have edits walk me through word by word, "Why did I strike this out?

Why did I change it?" Um, and then eventually, pretty, pretty kind of soon after, I got to go to pitches. I was helping win business, got to lead my first account as, like, an AE, um, which now in my shoes I look back on and I'm like Wow, that is kind of insane they let me do that. Uh, even like, you know, I... It was, it's, it's a lot of, um, trust, and I also think, like, pushing people out of their comfort zone in a way that, like, you can rise to the [00:34:00] occasion.

And so that was very informative. Um, and then years later in, at Praytell, we actually brought Darcy on as a consultant to help us with a pitch that we needed. Uh, she would always joke and say she was the gray hair, which, um, I don't think she had gray hair at all. But, uh, we brought her in to come to a pitch with us, and we were going through the presentation and pitching our ideas, and she just, like, wildly started clapping and cheering during the meeting.

And she was on behalf of Praytell, so that was a little, uh... And the client, I don't think the client was as, as amused. And, um, Darcy, uh, I don't even think we won the business, but she was just always our biggest cheerleader. I'm still in touch with her today. She was one of the people I had texted when this, um, award came out.

And, you know, I think mentorship, uh, you know, it is giving people those opportunities, and I am thinking a lot about in, getting people in the rooms and, you know, we're pretty intentional, I would say. Like, we try and bring the [00:35:00] te- you know, we, we try and bring the full team to a pitch that's gonna work on the business.

We know clients don't wanna meet a bunch of senior people that aren't gonna be doing the work. So, um, but, like, how do we do more of that? Because I think just so much of that learning is sitting there listening to leaders, listening to the, you know, the QA. How do you navigate those, those tough questions?

So, um, yeah, I definitely wanna, wanna do more of that too.

Anne Green: No, I think that paying it forward is so critical. So I love these stories of how we're mentored. I mean, as I mentioned earlier, I met some women who are quite a bit older than me at Burson. One was Sara Lee Slonsky, who had been a pioneer in food and wine PR, helped to found Les Dames d'Escoffier, and then pioneered pharma comms.

And then she was a freelancer at Cooper Katz helping us, and it was really special. But I knew what she sacrificed to get there. She was very clear about that. Um, the other thing my father had told me, I, both my mom and dad are passed now, but my father always used to say, "Don't [00:36:00] travel too light." And that, I take that as a mentorship thing, because what he meant was really appreciate the relationships you're building along the way- Mm-hmm

and nurture them. And I was always feeling like, "Oh my God, I'm gonna travel too light. I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna make that mistake." And now at 55, I find myself in quite a rich place of relationship, and in a place where the idea of networking or of making relationships is really more joyous. It's about meeting new people.

And so one of the things I've been trying to do in giving back And I'd love to hear, you know, what you folks are doing. I do a lot of mentorship of younger folks from my alma mater at Vassar College. I'm, I'm there every year for this program called Sophomore Career Connections, which is such an early time.

And doing... I'm running the advertising, marketing, PR cohort so they can be like, "What the heck are these jobs?" But Laura, what are ways that you think about giving back? You know, and, and because I think part of this is, how do we wanna attract people into this profession that's changing so much, too?

Laura Tomasetti: No, it's great [00:37:00] to think about and, and, and I think there's different, you know, ways to mentor, um, if, if that's part of what you're asking about at, at, and at, at different stages.

As you mentioned, students, I certainly speak with a lot of students about coming into the field and what to expect and what to emphasize that they've done that is relevant for what they might do, um, if they're coming into our, into our, our industry. Um, and then there's people that are already here. Uh, and one of the things I really like to do is, you know, I call it walk around management, walk around mentorship.

Um, before I sit down, I come into the office most days because I do like to, I do like to see people in person. I think a lot of that you can do some things across the way on, on screen, but there's a lot of things that you miss if you don't talk to someone in person and pick up on the nuances of, of what they may be experiencing on a given day or coming off of a weekend.

Um, so I, you know, before I sit down at my desk and sort of buckle in for the day, I do my walk around and I [00:38:00] talk to as many people as I can, whoever's in early. Um, and also who's ever in late, um, whoever's in late at the end of the day, too, and, and might just be stuck at their desk and have that conversation, "Oh, how are you doing?"

You know, "What are you working on?" And this is a lot of times I think younger people don't want to see themselves as a squeaky wheel. They don't want to, they don't wanna s- put their hand up. They don't wanna suggest that maybe something's not working. Um, so I think being that person that can kind of clear that barrier and ask a question and engage them, "How's it going?

Is there anything I can help with?" And, you know, "Gee, that sounds stressful. Um, have you talked to so and so?" So, um, I think just sort of breaking down the barriers is really important and I really like that walk around, um, you know, those conversation opportunities that I would consider are a little bit more informal mentorship in addition to the formal mentorship that, that we can do at, at 360.

Um, I also just, you know, in the number of years I've been in the business, I, I, I'm in a mentorship situation with [00:39:00] clients, too. You know, we have a lot of clients that, you talked about this at the top end, that have incredibly stressful days and don't have a peer to run down the hall to. One of the things that we're really fortunate, uh, about in an agency is that there are other people like you up the hall at your level that have been there at different levels, that have been there, done that, and, um, can share their experience.

So I think, um, you know, being able to talk to clients too and what's happening there, how can, how can I help? Here's what I would've done, or gee, I, you know, I went through something like that. Um, sharing that experience and, and then also I, I learn from my clients too. So, um, I think the mentorship can be done at different levels and in different ways, both in our organizations and, and outside.

Anne Green: Yeah, and some of it is just... And even among peers, how do we help each other? How are we there for each other? Um, I think what you said, Beth, about, you know, who's in what room, bringing more people in, what you're saying, Laura, about recognizing- Yeah ... where people do or don't feel like [00:40:00] they can speak up, or, you know, how empowered they feel at different ages, how sensitive you are.

It is an interesting thing navigating this hybrid world. You know, it's a little bit different. But understanding that mix of in-person engagement. I've been really focused on this question of how do we release more capital for really meaningful in-person engagement, you know, and bringing people together, and we'll be investing quite a bit this year in flying sector teams in to be together.

You know, and but, um, it's, it's an interesting evolution, but I love the idea. You know, to me, and I'd, I'd love to hear your guys' POV on this, it is a changing industry. It can be challenging. Agency life can be challenging, and the corporate side can be challenging too, right? I always say grass is green and brown on both sides of every fence.

Good and bad, right? But I do think for me, this, this field and what I've enjoyed about growing in it, and I am a completely... I surprise myself in being a business person. I was much more liberal arts. I thought I'd be a university professor. This wasn't my plan. But I've loved the intellectual [00:41:00] curiosity of this field, all we've learned about.

I mean, the three of us together could probably talk from now until the end of time about all the things we've learned about industries and clients and such. And then the interaction with people. In an agency, you have three to four generations at any given time, and the kind of multi-level learning and mentorship, and with clients too, Laura.

It's really, to me, still that kind, and problem-solving and creativity, those are the things when I talk to younger people that I feel are very alive, especially given the integrated nature of the work we do. What are some of the things, Beth, you might say to young people of any kind that would be thinking about marketing or comms or branding, PR today?

Beth Cleveland: Couple thoughts. I think from a young person kind of coming in, I would say I totally agree on the, like, problem-solving, um- I have been really, really excited about some of the new talent coming into Praytell who have such a breadth of experience [00:42:00] across ... They've created content. They love writing. They are, um, they know how to edit film.

They, it, the, like, diversity of spaces they played in, I think is so exciting, and you can see, like, certainly I think coming into the industry, having more diverse kind of skill sets of just-

Anne Green: Mm-hmm ...

Beth Cleveland: different ways that people communicate, uh, long form writing, short form, all of it. Like, really, uh, you can see this new generation of talent coming in where you're like, "Wow, this is gonna be exciting."

And being able to kind of bring it all together, um, uh, is, is super exciting. So that, to me, um, I think is really, really important. Um, I also have folks reach out all the time saying, "Hey, can we intern at Praytell? I have a 15-year-old." And I'm like, "Well, it's a little early. Not yet." Um, but I o- I have said, like, "Go work in the service industry."

And I think that's, like, a little bit shocking for a parent who wants to resume build for college, which I fully get, and I [00:43:00] understand that. But the understanding how to deal with people and manage those problems and figure out how to get a win, and we at Praytell talk a ton about just service industry kind of acumen, and like, what can you learn from, like, a really amazing restaurant.

Um, so service is, I think, just having those people skills, especially as kids are spending more time on their phones. Like, really understanding kind of how to work with people is super critical. Um, and then on the mentorship side, I just wanted to mention, um, personally, I talk a lot to more of our up-and-coming leaders about, like, really understanding their superpower.

And, uh, we just are off of annual reviews, so it's so top of mind for me. But go ... You know, kind of looking at all the different skill sets of somebody and going like, "Oh my gosh, this is your ... like, what makes you uniquely special as a leader, as an employee," and leaning into that and, like, figuring out how do you kind of craft around that [00:44:00] versus us all trying to be the same kind of leader.

Um, I think I mentioned this to you, Anne, of in my past, people were like, "Don't smile as much. Have more of a monotone voice. Uh, you know, you're just too happy." Like, I've gotten just kinds of feedback along the way of like, "Be this thing." That is so unnatural to me, and then I just get ... I don't know how to be.

I, it's, it's truly not who I am. So, um, it's taken me a very long time to learn that, like, it's way better to be your authentic self than try and be something that you're not, and that's not very inspiring as a leader if you're, if you're not you. So, um, I do think kind of anyone along their journey, like, starting to kinda understand, like, "Wow, this is something I uniquely bring to a team, to a client situation," and, um- And really kind of leaning into that, and like how can you build around what makes you special, so.

Anne Green: That's so important too, and there's so much discussion today. You see it in Harvard Business Review about CEO skillsets, and [00:45:00] I'm t- talking about, you know, folks like us. I feel sometimes I'm a CEO in a little pond, but you know, still it's, it's transferable. But this idea of emotional intelligence, compassion, empathy, gratitude, connection, sharp.

You know, you have to be sharp, direct, being direct with people. But being that self that people can sense that you are, you know, bringing as much of yourself as you can to it is very powerful today. Laura, what are the things that when you think about people entering the profession, or you think about your younger employees, what are, what are those things that light you up about this work?

And as hard as it can be, right? It is not easy.

Laura Tomasetti: I, I mean, so many thoughts, but you know, first off that communications is, is not only an industry, but it's a, it's a foundational skill. So, um, wherever you may dream to go, communications is a great place to start. Uh, and I think for many that, you know, that come into the field, it sticks.

And one of the reasons, reasons why it, you know, for me, and I think, you know, for both of you too, that this is a [00:46:00] creative business. And you know, whether you're in consumer, you're in B2B, you're s- you're problem-solving. You're, you know, you're, you're tapping into your curiosity, your intellectual curiosity.

Um, every day is different. Every day is different. I, I always say you are never gonna be bored in this business, you know? And you're go- you talked a little bit of too, Beth, about, uh, and Ann, about the continual learning that happens in our, in our organizations and in our industry. So, um, you know, the learning doesn't stop, and it's this every day is different.

And Beth, you mentioned that sort of diverse range of skills that you're seeing talent come in with now, and there is a diverse and equally diverse range of work that you're going to get to do. Um, so I think that, I think being in a creative business, and I do think PR at the core is a cr- it's a strategic business, it is a creative business.

I think it's a gift to work in a creative business and to get to think differently. We are paid to think differently. It's not just do what you know, do what you've done before. It's [00:47:00] think differently. Come up with what's different and what's next. Um, and I think in an, in an age of AI, that's really exciting that there's, that there is room for that creativity and a, a lot of runway for it.

And then in the agencies in particular, I, there's such a clear trajectory for career growth. So- If you are someone that's motivated, motivated by that. Um, you know, I think there's some challenges when you're starting out from a compensation standpoint, but there are opportunities to quickly grow your skill set, add to those many skills that you come in with, deepen those skills, but also grow, you know, from a compensation standpoint too.

So, um, you know, that, that ladder is real.

Anne Green: Yeah, absolutely. And I... You know, it's very interesting, this idea of learning. Um, it can feel like a cliche or, "Oh, I love to learn things." But, you know, here we all are various decades into our career, and I am just as excited and overwhelmed sometimes at all I'm learning as I was [00:48:00] before.

I'm a voracious collector of information. That's the reason I enjoy, along with Steve Halsey, in hosting the podcast, is I just wanna talk with people, learn, grow, um, have conversations like this. So it is, it is a powerful place. And I do feel, um, with the AI of it all, that the augmentation of intelligence, augmenting what is most human, using what machines are strong for, and then- Mm-hmm

leaning into what humans have as strengths is gonna be so powerful. And that idea of communicating human to human across stakeholders, across context, becomes even more powerful. Now, I, I forget, I was listening to Ezra Klein interview Stewart Brand, who's this legendary kind of Silicon Valley philosopher, launched the Whole Earth Catalog.

Like, an incredible... For anyone who hasn't heard that, incredible. He has a whole new book about maintenance, what it means to maintain what already exists. But at one point, he said, Stewart Brand said that AI may in fact teach us more [00:49:00] about what it means to be human than what it is to have these machines.

And so that gives me a lot, a lot of hope. To, to finish up today, 'cause you've been so generous with your time, I'd love each of you, what's a piece of either leadership advice you received or something you'd like to impart to our listeners, maybe a young person coming in or a mid-career or a leader? What, what's, what's a piece of advice you wanna share?

Beth, I'll let you go first.

Beth Cleveland: Ooh, okay, fun. I thought we were going down the AI path, so you... But let's, let's do, um, I think leadership advice is a great one to end on. Um, I will say, you know, uh, my... I won't go into the whole thing, but in my career, I had a lot of turns I was not expecting. I moved to a small market unexpectedly, uh, felt like my big agency comms career was kind of falling wayside, and then, and I really, um, eventually came to the conclusion of like, look it is possible.

Go for it. And, um, [00:50:00] and, you know, just start kind of trying some different things, and eventually it'll stick. And so, um, that is kind of how I started my first agency. And, um, and I do think, like, as you come into a field like communications where there's such diversity of work, it is really about, um, yeah, leaning into your strengths, um, but continuing to just iterate and, and try different things.

And I think it will start to kind of stick, and you will start to find kind of that, um, trajectory that, that you can keep growing around. And, um, yeah, I think it's just, it's an amazing industry. I've loved being a part of it. I love the people, the team aspect. And, um, and I think, to your point, I think the human element in the current aspect is so, so critical, and, um, and I think there's a huge opportunity for us to help shape that.

That's great.

Anne Green: I

Beth Cleveland: love

Anne Green: that. I love that. Laura, what, what's your advice you're thinking about you wanna share with folks? Yeah, I

Laura Tomasetti: mean, I think that, you know, [00:51:00] one of the things that, that I've learned to do better over the years and that has worked for me as a leader is, is really actively being, becoming a better listener.

Um, and I think being able to do that early in my career would've been great. I think I always felt that I needed to come in with the answer. Uh, but if you can really, if you can really activate that listening muscle and, and really active listening and kinda ... When I say active listening, like listening for what's there, what's being said, but also what's not being said.

Um, so I think, I think, you know, making listening one of your superpowers is really important. I think a lot of young people feel like they have to come into a room and, and have the answer, the right answer. And then also not, you know, not being afraid to fail. It's okay to then put your hand up and have the, you know, quote, unquote, "wrong answer."

It may not be the wrong answer. Um, so I think, you know, a combination of really being that, you know, attentive listener, but at the same time not being afraid to put your hand up, um, and not waiting [00:52:00] to be asked to do something. You know? It's a put your hand up, ask a question, volunteer to try something new, um, you know, th- then you're gonna get more opportunities.

Anne Green: I think that's great. I, I think that's so true. I, and all of us can work on listening. I get very excited. I love to chat and jump in and everything, so I, my team knows that, I think most of last year it finally fell off, but I had a little Post-it on the edge of my laptop here that said, "Listen." Just to, just to listen.

Get a c- you know? I get very excited. My, my piece of advice, aside from what my dad said, which is don't travel too light, uh, and you really have such pleasure in- Yeah ... those relationships over time. Mm-hmm. Especially the more senior you get, and your path is always surprising. I think the other thing is the mindset, especially now.

You're right, Beth, I kinda took a, a U-turn away from AI. I feel like we talk about it all the time, so we can return to that in every other podcast out there. But the idea that, um- We really thinking about ourselves as how do we augment what's [00:53:00] already strong. So how do we think our- ourselves as a counselor, and how do you start to understand there is a mindset of organizational leadership that you can start to understand even when you're much younger.

How do you look not just at your own world, your own team, or yourself as an employee, but how do you start to get curious, that's all, about what is management doing and why, and what is their experience, and what do they know and what don't they know? I think with my l- my early mentors, Andy Cooper and Ralph Katz, I figured they knew everything about managing an agency.

And then as I... As they welcomed me in the tent, I was like, "Oh, man, you guys don't know some of this too. Okay, we're figuring this out together." So the earlier that folks can start to say, "How do I speak and think like a counselor? How do I understand that there's an organizational leadership mindset beyond just the individual or a team mindset?"

I, I r- I really invite people to start to explore that early, because I think it's gonna be very strong as we lean into what makes us most human going forward. But Laura and Beth, it's been so fun- Thank you ... and [00:54:00] such a delight. Thank you. I hope your teams and other in the industry enjoy hearing more from you, and I hope you enjoyed the conversation too.

It was wonderful. Thank you, Anne.

Laura Tomasetti: It was great. I love your advice about not traveling too light. Thanks to your dad for that.

Beth Cleveland: Yeah.

Laura Tomasetti: It's a good one.

Beth Cleveland: That's a good one. I've not heard that before, actually. I feel like there's a lot of sayings where you're like, "Oh, yeah, we've heard it in different contexts," but that's a great one.

It really is. Like, the intentionality of it.

Anne Green: Yeah, it's, it... I don't know where it came from. Wish I could ask him. But, uh, it really sticks with me. So yeah, I hope others enjoy that too. But, um, for our listeners, as always, go and check out the agencies of both these wonderful leaders. Learn more about them. Um, hit them up on LinkedIn, and make sure to keep an eye on the feed.

We have... Steve Halsey and I are doing a lot of interviews right now. A lot of cool stuff is coming down the pipeline. So as always, thank you, and you can find us wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you again.

Laura Tomasetti: Thanks, Anne. Great stuff. Thanks, [00:55:00] Anne.

[00:00:00]

Steve Halsey: Alright, well welcome everybody to this episode of Building Brand Gravity. I'm Steve Halsey, one of your hosts. And with me, uh, my esteemed guest, Dr. Rochelle Ford, CEO of the Page Society. And for those that don't know the page, society is the world's leading organization of chief communications officers, academics.

Uh, you've got researchers, universities, not-for-profit, and all the teams that support 'em. Dr. Ford, welcome to the show.

Dr. Rochelle Ford: Thank you, Angie and s an amazing comms. Team agency, phenomenal organization.

Steve Halsey: Ooh. Love to hear those. Love to hear those. Well, today what we're going to do is we're gonna unpack something that is really interesting.

Paige and the Harris Poll, uh, partnered together. You guys have actually partnered together the last couple years on your confidence in Business Index and this year I thought it was really interesting 'cause it really highlighted what we're seeing as a [00:01:00] growing gap between what people expect from companies.

And what they actually believe companies will deliver. Sounds like a little crisis of trust if you ask me.

Dr. Rochelle Ford: Yes, there's an ongoing crisis of trust or a lack of confidence that business can actually make an impact on the issues that are important to consumers.

Steve Halsey: So when you, when you think about that, um, so this is a global study, not just us, it's global.

And what I thought was interesting about that was you were looking at perspectives both from a macro standpoint of what you saw globally as well as within different countries. Um, and also what you saw across generation, so I guess it's a little teaser for our guests. What were some of the things that stood out most to you in this?

Dr. Rochelle Ford: Yeah, so one of the most important things, and this is what we're hearing all the time today, is the economy. What's in it for me, right? Um, consumers all over the place. They don't wanna just hear that my company's doing well and it's, it's, it's rendering money for our, our, our stockholders, our investors.

[00:02:00] But how's the economy working for me as an individual? And that was the number one issue across every market that people wanted to hear. How is the economy working for us as individuals? Um, and we're not, you doing such a good job of telling it like we're in business, right, to make money and to help, but how is that working for me?

And that was even this theme at Davos when we kicked off the study and we, we initially shared it and it was like, it's not just for, um, the rich and wealthy, but it's for everyday. People

Steve Halsey: and, and some of the stats, I just jotted it down here, you had 61% expect, uh, economic impact, but only 31% believe companies can deliver.

That's, that's a pretty stark difference there.

Dr. Rochelle Ford: Oh yeah. It's, it's a stark difference. And I think one of the real reasons is that people aren't seeing, um, the full story. They don't know what companies are doing and what is that economic impact in my community. A lot of companies will tell, you know, they'll, you're required by law, you know, to have your shareholder meetings release, what [00:03:00] your earnings are, but they're not breaking it down to what is that impact story on local communities.

A lot of them have the data. They've done economic impact, um, research, and they know what it is. But have they told that story? Have they gotten it into the hands of the consumers where they find the information so they a can prove it, and they can explain the context around how that happened and what does that mean for you?

At that local level, at that state level. Of course, at your, your, your national, global level. But what does it mean locally? And the more that companies can discover that and tell that story to be able to demonstrate this is what it means for you, this is how we're making an impact in your local community, then it's gonna res, um, resonate with them and probably begin to increase confidence that they're doing something.

Most people aren't seeing it and that they see it. They don't understand what they're.

Steve Halsey: And one of the things I thought was really interesting looking at the study is, and I'll call it transference is probably the wrong term, but you know, we've seen, [00:04:00] you know, during different points of time people what, what they view about corporations and corporations within that.

You know, some are more trusted than others, but you're really seeing when, when, when I hear something like, Hey, I expect economic impact. You know, that's something you would probably more. In the past, you would maybe, uh, more traditionally have applied to broader government. You know, what are, what are these groups doing?

What are they not, what can you speak about the fact that when people are thinking, how does this impact me? They're thinking corporate and they're putting, they're putting the corporate enterprise in that, in that role. So I guess one, what's your reaction to that, whether it's transference or not? And since you represent, uh, chief Communications officers.

What, what challenges, I mean, their remit just got a whole lot bigger. Right.

Dr. Rochelle Ford: So you know what's happening. Is that one of the reasons why you're, you're seeing. Corporations on the hot tables. 'cause politicians are like, it's not our fault. It's these companies. [00:05:00] And you're seeing the headlines over and over again that companies are, are, are not doing well, whether it's in the housing market, they're taking advantage of, of consumers because of the way that they're pricing things or they're buying properties.

You're seeing it with the credit cards and lending and it's like the, the interest rates are too high and they're the ones that are setting this. And so you're, you're having politicians. Call out in nearly every country, they're calling out corporations saying it's your fault that the economy's not working.

Pointing to the business leaders. And so if we don't own that story and begin to tell our consumers like, you know, I'm so, I was a university president and one of the things we want to know was what was the economic impact of our presence in that community? And that's what we need to be able to explain it just to regular consumers.

And so you need to be able to say how you're controlling prices, has it affect the pocketbook? How are you doing what you're doing in terms of being job creation, which is part of the economic story? What are you doing to make sure that, that [00:06:00] you're using the local resources and things that you're reinvesting into that community?

All of those are stories that we can tell, but sometimes we forget to tell them. And so it's, it's the critical thing that we really become those in-house journalists to find out what's going on and then make sure that we're, we're presenting that information in places that, that our consumers are going for, to find information about our companies.

Steve Halsey: Well, well, I'm so, I mean, I saw that stat. I was just thinking about the weight on the communications department. Oh my gosh, how do I, how do I tell this story of economic impact? Because a lot of times. That one, you really want to pull that down into the numbers and the details and that. But, but what you just said is there's a lot of ways to talk about what is our economic impact and it's really putting on that hat and thinking about the story that we want to tell.

And I think that's really important because there, there was, there were two other stats I thought were really interesting. Uh, there are a lot of stats I thought were interesting, but it's what I would kind of call the broken confidence curve. [00:07:00] And in that you found that only 29% of those who took the survey saw both action and context.

71% saw said they saw very little. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

Dr. Rochelle Ford: Yeah, so when we, we look at the issue of, of confidence, Mrs. How do you change confidence that that companies can do something about an issue? And one is, are they seeing the actions of the corporation? And if you see the action alone.

But there's no explanation behind it. Confidence only raises a little bit if you hear a story, but you actually have nothing to point to as evidence and you can action. Again. Confidence only rises a little bit, so you have to have the confluence of both. You have to humanize the story to show how, what are you doing?

How's it happen? Why is this important? You know, where am I seeing the impact you have to all those, you know, five Ws and H they used to say in journalism school. Mm-hmm. You have to provide that context of why this matters and then be able to point [00:08:00] to explicit examples of what the company is actually doing.

So they have to see it and they have to understand it as well. And when you do the two things together, you know, this is kind of when you nerd out, if you like statistics. It's almost a direct correlation how confidence rises. And so, but if you're just simply talking and telling beautiful stories and there's no actions, nothing concrete to point to, confidence doesn't rise.

If people just see, you know, a shovel in the ground, they don't understand what's going on. Again, confidence doesn't rise, but if you're able to tell that story and you can point to those examples for people to see it and. You

Steve Halsey: know, and, and a lot of those who listen and watch this podcast, they have, they have global roles.

Dr. Rochelle Ford: Mm-hmm.

Steve Halsey: So, so those numbers that you're talking about, you found that consistent globally, right? That that whole idea of the economic expectation and that broken confidence curve.

Dr. Rochelle Ford: Yeah. It was an every nation. Um, some of the nations I found interesting is that. And some of the [00:09:00] countries where you're seeing the greatest, um, economic growth in those companies, um, countries, those are the ones that you're seeing the highest level of confidence.

So you're seeing high confidence in places like the UAE. You're seeing higher confidence in places like India, where again, great economic growth. Even in China, again, greater confidence, but in places like the United States. Down like 26% confidence. Wow. You go to a place, you know, uh, like Italy on the very low end of confidence.

And so it just depends upon where you are and what people are seeing and what they're feeling and what they're understanding, um, about those changes that are happening in their communities.

Steve Halsey: Well, that, that makes me think then, you know, the ability to tell that economic story, that it's really kind of become the new narrative battleground, hasn't it?

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rochelle Ford: Absolutely. It is a new narrative battleground. Um, you have to humanize things. And when you, when you put that human face onto what, what it matters to me, I think that that actually helps [00:10:00] and also helps you to break into, um, other areas in which you can tell stories because people are, they're searching for information.

And how do you make sure that your stories come up in their searches? How do you make sure that when they're, you know, talking to chat GPT or some other generative AI source that your, your company, that yours, regular information is shown.

Steve Halsey: Up. So, so one of the challenges I'm sure for, uh, for members of, of the Page society, and I, I know you guys have a lot of different forums where your members are talking.

How do you have that economic conversation without waiting in a politics or feeling political, particularly in a lot of countries have become really, um, hyperpolarized as being played out, and so you're trying to give a message about economic impact. How do you do that in a meaningful way without putting a target on your back or your back or your front and your side?

Dr. Rochelle Ford: Well, I don't know any country that says how do we, you know, dig ourselves further in the hole? So talking [00:11:00] about your impact is not controversial. Now, our second issue that came up in this study of across most markets, not all markets, but it was corruption. Now that one is a harder one to deal with in explaining how my company is helping the local community or helping that state, or helping that nation to grow and to be stronger more economically.

But the issue that tends to be on consumers' minds around the globe. The second issue globally was that intersection between politics in corporations and that corruption story is a harder one to define. And the one where you might get into a little bit of trouble if you're talking about. Corruption. And a lot of people don't want to talk about that issue, particularly in our industry, because always have lobbyists that we're trying to advance our causes and we're working on advocacy issues.

And that becomes a little bit more difficult because you have to work within different political and, and social, um, environments. But the economic impact story, the job [00:12:00] creation story, those aren't controversial because you're trying to invest in and uplift a community, not just your shareholders.

Steve Halsey: Well, and, and what, what's interesting, um, on that corruption, uh, point was, was when the, when the first study came up, it was a little bit further down on the list.

Sad to say it's coming up on the list, but I remember seeing that and thinking, oh, well that's just, that's just a third world country thing. That's, that's just, that's somebody else's issue. You know, is that really that big a deal? But we are seeing that, that come up and, and maybe you can talk a little bit about.

The definitions that you, that you use, use for that, because I think that helps add, add context to, to what we're talking about that again, some people just think corruption means, okay, I'm just paying you under the table. We're all good in some case that that really is, but, but maybe you can talk about the definition and then.

How do we as communicators, um, attack that the best we can?

Dr. Rochelle Ford: Yeah. So we [00:13:00] came up with about five definitions. So not only did we ask, you know, was corruption something that people are thinking about, and the answer was yes. Number two, across, um, all the countries that we survey. Um, but we came up with five phases of, of corruption.

One is the abuse of power and the misuse of authority. So what does that mean? So, um, these are some examples of what people said about this concept of abuse. Of power, misuse of authority. In Mexico, they said the abuse of power is everywhere. Bribes, extortion, mismanagement of public funds. Mm-hmm. Um, in the UK they said politicians and leaders act for themselves, not for the public.

Um, everyone sees it. So that was the first theme of abuse, of power and misuse of authority. The second phase of corruption we found was the lack of transparency. Hidden deals and non accountability in Brazil, people said everything is hidden. No one knows where the money goes. So it's that, that idea of, of lack of transparency.

Um, someone in the US said corruption is tied to special [00:14:00] interest groups and providing money to get their agenda passed. Um, things that are done in the shadows. So that lack of transparency was the second phase of corruption. Um, the third one was, um, systematic cultural and everyday normalization of corruption.

Like, it just happens. Everybody knows, it just happens. It's a part of life. And that idea that there's really nothing you can, you can do about it. Someone in Italy said corruption is just everywhere. It is always existed and it just won't disappear. This like kind of fatalism, um, sort of idea. Um, another phase of corruption was bribery and favoritism and illicit exchange, kind of the pay to play attitude.

And the fifth one was social harm and inequality and hopelessness and a loss of trust in institutions. Someone in Canada said corruption is increasing and people feel powerless to stop it. So how do you then, I think the second part, correction. What should, um, professional communicators do? Well, you have to look at your corporate governance, [00:15:00] like what are the, what are the rules?

What are the ethics that you have? What are the values that your company stands by, and how do you demonstrate that those things are real? How do you share where you, you stop something from happening and that you are able to say, this is what we're doing to improve and to shed light and transparency, and how we make decisions or why we're doing what we do.

So again, it is that restoring confidence in your, in your company is being transparent. That's that context. This is why we, this is why we did this. This is why we are, we're not doing business here. This is why we're, you know, um, how our actions and decisions are being made. And that contextual story is an important one.

What are the guard rails and what are the ethics that we're standing by? At the end of the day, what do we value as a company and how are we living those values at every turn?

Steve Halsey: Well, it is interesting to hear you, uh, describe it that way because one of the things I've been talking about lately, and I mentioned it to you, our last conversation, is this, this idea I call narrative as an [00:16:00] operating system, right?

Big end narrative, not narrative as in the messaging that's all important, but kind of like in your vision, in your values, in things you do every day in your DNA as a company, what you pursue. All of those things create, as you said, a contextual story around the company. So you need to make sure that what's being communicated matches what is being done.

But on the flip side, you wanna make sure what's being done is communicated right.

Dr. Rochelle Ford: And that's what's restore it seems so simple, but it's amazing that people don't do it. And I think as you're talking about, um, the narrative, it's what Paige is often called. What is your corporate character? Right. Who do you say that you are?

Why do, why does your business exist? What's its purpose? What's its mission? What's it vision, and what are those values and how do you make sure that every action that the company does. Aligns with those values, how can you point back to that character and then how do you, then once you're able to define that and [00:17:00] you're able to communicate your decisions and actions and people begin to see it and their understanding why you're doing things, then there's gonna build up advocacy and people willing to, to be your cheerleader because they're seeing it, they're understanding it, and then they're able to advocate on your behalf.

Steve Halsey: One of the other things to pivot a little bit here that I thought was really fascinating was also, excuse me a sec.

Oh goodness. I, I fought that for a minute.

Dr. Rochelle Ford: Oh my God.

Steve Halsey: But that's a good thing. We're not live on the air.

Dr. Rochelle Ford: We don't want you choking on the air.

Steve Halsey: Nope. Nope. That wouldn't be good. Alright, that, so we pick up. That's a, that's a, that's a great point. One of the other things I thought was really interesting in the research was the generational divide. I guess we all don't value the same exact thing in the, in the workplace.

Can you tell us a little bit about the [00:18:00] generational divide?

Dr. Rochelle Ford: Yes. I, uh, as someone who has a millennial and two Gen Zs in my house, I can tell you about generational divides on a regular basis and, and caring for my more than boomer mother silent generation. But in our study, we particularly looked at the.

Uh, what are some of those main issues and then what are the differences between generations And definitely mental health is one of those issues that stood out. Um, you will see that Gen Z and millennials, they absolutely care and they want companies to do something about mental health issues. Um, they have the vocabulary, they've grown up with people talking about it.

It's normalized in their generation, and it's not enough. For your, your company to say that, oh, you have mental health benefits as part of your compensation package. Like you can go to the doctor, you can go to a psychiatrist or psychologist, but they want to know what are you doing to promote it? How are.

The leaders, how is my boss demonstrating that they're taking healthy lifestyle choices? That they're saying, you know what, I'm going on [00:19:00] vacation 'cause my brain needs a break, or I'm going to go and take a walk today. Or I'm doing these healthy lifestyles that are proactively promoting mental health. Or it is just as okay.

To, um, to have a mental health day as it is because your stomach is upset and you need to stay home. So Gen Z in particular is looking for those indicators as they enter into the workforce, and then our company's doing it and advocating for that even in the marketplace. Um, we just had our, our, our page spring seminar, um, here in New York not too long ago, and the NFL is being very, very proactive in talking about that and normalizing mental health issues.

Gen Z consumers globally are looking for that. Not so much in, in the boomers and many of the, the, the top issues for, for the, um, the baby boomer generation. Mental health didn't come up in one of their top five issues, but they're being affected too oftentimes caring for their elderly parents, caring for, you know, their children and their [00:20:00] sometimes grandchildren and their sandwich with stress.

But we haven't normalized it to talk about it, that it's something that companies should be able to do. But that is one of the issues in particular that, um, that the younger generations want to see companies proactively doing something about.

Steve Halsey: What about, uh, the Jet Xers like me? Where did we fall?

Dr. Rochelle Ford: No one cares about us.

I'm a Jet Xer. And, and you know, it's interesting because not only are there differences and, and the issues that are important to gen the various generations, but the media consumption habits. Very greatly too. And that's where you're seeing some additional, um, divides. And one of the beautiful things about Xers is that we kind of flow in between the, the, the two extremes.

Mm-hmm. We're leaning into old media, we still consume it, but we lean into the new media and are more likely to look at the tiktoks and things that, let's say the, the boomers generation is. But I believe gen ed. Very important people.

Steve Halsey: I'm, I'm with you. [00:21:00] Shout out Gen X. Sometimes we feel er, sometimes we feel millennial.

Um, but, but I guess that also takes me another point that the research found was, was kind of what I would say. In some ways, authority is upside down, right? So you're seeing a key shift. Search continues to dominate gen. AI is rising like a Phoenix, a Banshee, or whatever term it is rising fast, and those two are coming together at the same time.

When news media is declining, news newsrooms are getting smaller and smaller. Can you talk about this behavioral shift and what does it mean?

Dr. Rochelle Ford: Well, you, you, you said it just, just then, um, behavioral shift is that we've oftentimes relied on earned media. Earned media 'cause people are gonna see it in the press.

And people were going to watch television. They were going to the news organizations. Well, that's shifting. People are going for information on their search engines. They're still Googling information. And then what happens when you use your Google or other search [00:22:00] information now. AI is generated as well.

So not only when you're doing an active search, but you're also getting AI generated content. But people are also going directly to search engines like, um, or to the AI engines to find information. And that is increasing very rapidly, um, among many generations, not just. The younger, um, you know, millennials and gen Gen Zs, but across the spectrum that it has nearly doubled in terms of usage and trust.

And that's an important thing to know is, you know, for, for, for, for professional commuters. Is, is is pitching and earned media dead? No, because it's a cited source that absolutely informs generative ai um, engines. But you have to know that not only do you need to have your website's search engine optimized now, they need to be generative [00:23:00] AI engine optimized because you wanna make sure that your content appears when people are willing to those, um, AI search engines and which ones vary also according to the country and region of the world that you're in as well.

So it makes our job more challenging. Because you gotta get the right message

Steve Halsey: mm-hmm.

Dr. Rochelle Ford: To the right people through the right channels at the right time. And that means that we're gonna have to do a lot more in terms of segmentation of, of audiences and, and getting the stories out there

Steve Halsey: and, and with the, and with the right frequency.

And one of the things I think is, uh, is, is interesting that I've been talking about, um, and, and I can't divulge company, but I'm in the middle of it. We built, uh, a few months ago, we built a crisis plan for them. That was large language model first, and it was really structured to all the things we're talking about, demonstrating that economic impact, demonstrating corporate governance, really [00:24:00] leaning into the, uh, issues where, where they were saying, Hey, this is where we may be of risk, but they've really accepted that viewpoint of.

Alright, let's make this stuff out because when that crisis hits before a human writes an article, anybody that searches the AI is gonna pull it. And if we don't have that information out there, guess what? Information is being pulled, not ours. And that doesn't allow us to be, to be part of the, the, the narrative.

Then, you know, just over the past couple weeks, uh, unfortunately they had an issue hit, but what we were seeing in ai. And in search was very much in, much in line with that. And it is not manipulating the algorithm or anything like that, it's just, it's just being prepared to put that information out there for that initial wave.

But then the other thing I think a lot of people forget when it comes to generative ai, it's not a set and forget. It's not say it once and you know, it goes [00:25:00] away. I had, um, uh, Greg Galen spin on the podcast a number of times. MuckRack. Last year they did some research. They did a million queries in Claude Gemini chat and all of that.

And you know what they found the most quoted source was

Dr. Rochelle Ford: news.

Steve Halsey: News. And, you know, uh, when it sourced yesterday mm-hmm. Yesterday was the most referenced thing that came up in search. So to your point, yes, that creates a lot of challenges for us as communicators, but I look at that and says. But that means we need to be communicating a lot of places all the time.

Dr. Rochelle Ford: Absolutely. We have to be thinking about, um, getting our, you know, continuing to tell our stories through, you know, through the news, whether it's print, radio, what have you, but also, um, through podcasts and, and thinking even about, um, the rankings and stuff like what is the best restaurant? Those things are important and people finding information [00:26:00] and when you are.

Um, so our job to make sure as communicators is to continue to look towards those earned media opportunities, but also not forget about things like YouTube, right? And making sure that our stories are being told visually because YouTube is the number, number two source for many, many, um, individuals as a place that they're going for information and also they're still using social media.

Um, so those are still, um, critical sources that are, are being, um, being used, but when it comes to finding things through, um, you know, through those generative ai, um, tools, whether it's chat, GBT or Clot or Gemini or what have you, absolutely. It's about the citations. So how do you get your information cited by others and then making so that it can hopefully be found.

But you said something earlier when you walk into that crisis, is that. P if they don't find your current information, they're gonna quote old information, right? So you need to be going through [00:27:00] and asking those queries about the issues and things that your company is involved in and finding where old information might be.

And then you begin to start making corrections and make sure that you are covering it with currency so that it will, um, you know, some of those things they'll ever go away, but hopefully won't be as discovered. Mm-hmm.

Steve Halsey: Yeah. We, we do, we do a lot of business in, in agriculture, actually. Our firm was founded in 1971 as a, as an ag communications firm, um, in Midtown Manhattan.

And on my first day, I'm like, why would an AG firm be founded in midtown Manhattan? And they said, well, that's where all the media was in the day. Yes. Made, made sense. But, but we've got, um, a study that we're doing that we're gonna be, uh, releasing in June, AI in agriculture. Just looking at different views, uh, from the farmer's view to retailers and just how do you use it from generative AI to equipment and all that.

'cause some of this stuff, uh, being done by the big [00:28:00] equipment companies is amazing. You know, the amount of technology that goes into the acre. But I remember asking the question at the start of this, say, well, you know, a lot of the demographics of your average farmer is about 60 years old. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, they've been farming this for a long time.

I'm like, what, what do we anticipate, you know, about their ai AI adoption? And, you know, one of the, one of the digital people that's, that's deep into ag said, well, you gotta look at it this way, Steve. They said. Every time you pick up your smartphone and you make a query, what's the first thing you see is the AI summary.

Mm-hmm.

Steve Halsey: So whether you love it, hate it, want it, or resistant to it, it starts preconditioning you to understand the value of of ai. And so it is what's interesting to me is you look at an industry like that that is very much about. Your trusted advisors and very much about what you see in the [00:29:00] field and very much about the science and to see the shifts among all audiences.

A little preview for what's going on, but to see the shifts in adoptions, particularly where you don't expect it because it becomes very intuitive. But, but I think one of the other things is there's also a point where the ai, this whole conversation we're have about trust. I'll use it to find the information, but when it comes to make that decision, I want a trusted source.

Dr. Rochelle Ford: Oh yeah.

Steve Halsey: I want to, I want a trusted counselor, and I think that's a really important thing when you think about the chief communications officer role as wells, now I'm gonna build a beautiful machine and I'm gonna go sit on the beach, call me. There breaks, right? It's gotta be at at the key points that trusted counsel.

Dr. Rochelle Ford: Absolutely. The, the one of the key things that was emphasized actually last week at the, um, world economy, um, that Sofo, um, hosted 400. You've talked about Davos, but there were 400 CEOs in Washington DC last week. I know every place you [00:30:00] turned there was a CEO, but they are on the stage being interviewed by journalists and.

The whole,

Steve Halsey: I I'm sorry, I gotta ask you this was, was it like the scene in spies like us? Remember Doctor, doctor, doctor, doctor. CEO. CEO. CEO. And, and, and where you sit, you're like CEO.

Dr. Rochelle Ford: Yeah. I guess I could have said CEO. No, I guess I could have, but I, I, I don't think of myself quite like, you know, some of the folks who are on the, on, on the stage of heading up major insurance companies, like credit card companies, like car companies and all.

But, uh, but if you want me increase your dues, I will. You know, I, I didn't say that that was a bad joke. Um, on the serious note though, what they were saying across the board is you can't leave the Cuban out of ai. So absolutely it'll make you faster, you know, sometimes a lot more efficient, which is a lot of reasons why farmers and others are doing it.

Because when with taken. You know, go gobs of of time to go out to the field and, and, and observe things. You can observe [00:31:00] it, you know, much more efficiently using AI tools, what have you, but what it it enables you to, to have efficiencies, you know, help speed things up. What it doesn't do is have that human level of judgment and the conversations that are not picked up by ai, the experience that you're drawn on, and what does it actually feel like to be in that moment.

Most of those things are not recorded in anything that an AI agent could pick up.

Steve Halsey: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rochelle Ford: So what you as a human, you can have faster research done, you can have fresh drafts of stories done, but you as a human have to be able to bring what AI cannot observe in the environment, your experiences, that feeling, those emotions, and you pull that into the strategy.

That can't be replaced because there's so much that an AI agent does not get to actually consume that the human mind does, and that creativity brought to the table to solve real problems.

Steve Halsey: [00:32:00] Yeah. And I, I think that's important. I mean, I mean, I, I've really been in the conversations I'm having saying I don't believe in human in the loop.

I believe in human as architect.

Dr. Rochelle Ford: Mm-hmm.

Steve Halsey: And that's really kind of, kind of what you're describing that I think is important. So, to move on a couple of things. Okay. So we've, uh, we've thrown out a lot of thoughts there. Thrown out a lot of challenges for communicators, but you had kind of put together a four step plan for what companies must do now in terms of owning the economic narrative, calibrating by generation, showing action and context, and modernizing the channel mix.

That's what we've talked about, so. How do we, how do we, how do we implement this four, four step plan for success?

Dr. Rochelle Ford: Sure. So you have to own your own narrative, right? It begins with you. You need to know what your company is doing, and you know, whether it's on the economic story, whether it's on the mental health story, it's on job creation or innovation stories.

What is your company doing? You have to own [00:33:00] your narrative. Um, and if you don't, then recognize that some savvy politician is going to take that story away from you. And so it's not a hypothetical risk. It's something that you need to do now, and it means we gotta do our homework, right? We have to do our homework.

And making sure that we're able to not only tell the story, but we have, when we have a seat at the table, which most of our chief comms officers do, then we have to have that enterprise thinking hat on. What are we actually doing about this? Why are we doing this? So that we can show it and then we can explain it with that context.

But then when we are thinking about mining that generational gap, we have to really calibrate, um, what issues that we're talking about. And where's the media? Where the, where are consumers going that they are using it and that they're trusting it for information about business. And so we have to make sure that we are recognizing the differences in the generations and what they are talking about, as well as the differences that you [00:34:00] see in, um, in, in different, um, um, global markets that's part of that mining, that generation.

And then when we're thinking about proving it with action, again, you have to show that context. You have to show the action that you're doing, and then you gotta modernize that mix, right? It's not your grandmother's public relations, right? It's more complex, it's more nuanced, and you have to lean into who are you trying to reach and how do you make sure that we start with that own content because that's the foundation of what we, what we do.

If No, it was an amazing, so real, you know, real life pre current here. Um, when we were gearing up, uh, were the first days of the war over in Iran and, um, in the Middle East with Israel and, and the rest of the, um, US involvement in it. A lot of our, our members, they were like, what is going to be the central source of truth?

It's our website and the government website. How do we keep what's current? Send people to where the information is where you can be [00:35:00] trusted and reiterate that. So your own content, even in the crisis of a war, is critical. So that what the truth is, is getting out. You can keep pointing back to it, but making sure that you use a whole host, other multiple channels that are where your consumers are, where your barriers, your employees are, and you're reaching 'em where they are telling real stories, proving it there.

Um. And, and I think it can be a, a, a recipe for success, but it takes some, takes some effort. Mm-hmm. Even laggards like me sometimes you don't want to use ai 'cause I'm old-ish.

Steve Halsey: Mm-hmm. Well, and, and, and I think, I think it there, there's amazing findings and, and we're gonna, we're gonna put, um. In here in the channel where you can get the research for the, uh, for the page Harris poll stuff.

But I wanted to spend the last couple minutes, unless there's something you want to talk here. I want to just ask you about, um, a little bit of what, what you're seeing since you've taken over page. You've [00:36:00] been on a whirlwind tour. I've seen you in Europe. I've seen you a lot of, a lot of places in the world we, we run into, but, but you've really, uh, been on a listening tour.

You know, traveling, traveling the globe, talking to chief communications officers, talking to academics, researchers, all of their teams. What, what are you, what are you finding, what are you hearing in addition to the, to the research? What, what's the state of our profession?

Dr. Rochelle Ford: Our, some of our profession is in transformation.

I think that's the key word, is transformation. AI is disrupting everything. It's enabling everything. And it's, it's a, it's a risk and it's an opportunity, right? So I think that every conversation that I'm having, whether we're talking about geopolitics, the role of ai, how are we governing it within our organizations so that we can create a healthy way for people to experiment within our organizations.

We wanna have that, that, that spirit, that spirit of, [00:37:00] um, experimentation when it comes to ai, but it has to be done in a safe way. Right. Um, and so that governance issue with regards to ai, what are the tools that I can use that's gonna help me to be more efficient, right? To be more effective in what I do?

And then by using it for those efficiency opportunities, how is that gonna transform the structure of my organizations? Everyone is looking at. What roles can I replace and what are the new roles I need to add on? Is it, um, we also think about the communication channels. Is it bots talking to bots, which a lot of it is, and how do I know that it's a real human behind that that, or is it another AI agent that is hallucinating, is now spreading mis and disinformation or someone intentionally putting it into that stream?

So it's about the upskilling of talent. It's the rethinking of how we're structured and what are the tools that we're gonna use. And then when you think about those tools, because all of us are on this learning journey, how do I know that this is a reputable partner to work [00:38:00] with? Because you're gonna get bombarded and what do I really need?

What do I not

Steve Halsey: need?

Dr. Rochelle Ford: And those decisions that are, that are, are being made. And so you're thinking about it in terms of your upskilling, you're thinking about how you communicate, just like we were talking about in the study. People are trying to make sure that how they are are, are disseminating messages, how they are listening.

Um, to figure out what folks are saying about them. All of that is ai. So every aspect that we touch, right? Should we have an AI agent as our CEO? Should we put their avatar up and ask questions?

Steve Halsey: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rochelle Ford: Well, that goes back to governance and ethics. It loops back around. So AI is coming up in every single conversation, whether it's internal, external.

Whether you're talking to people in Japan or Singapore or in England and or in, um, the Netherlands or here in the US or, or Brazil or Canada. It's coming up in every conversation.

Steve Halsey: [00:39:00] Well, and, and as I really think about it, I, I talk about the, the impact of AI really having kind of three components, right?

Mm-hmm. One is the competency, right? Do I have the competency? To, to learn to, to really make it work the way I can to, in some cases, yes, it's about efficiency. In some ways it's helped me do this better and put guardrails. In other cases, it's to create new ip. So competency is definitely part of it. Then becomes relevancy.

If I'm not competent, I'm not gonna be relevant for very long in our profession. So that's a really core part of it. And then I think really that third level is, is leadership. It's really becoming a leadership test for companies, for agencies, uh, to just really think about this next steps and to really use it to define value.

Who's gonna define value of what's next? I think is, is going to be, uh, really important. So. Okay, so you can escape ai. What else? [00:40:00] Favorite meal, best food. Oh my. What else are you seeing in your global travels that, that, that changed your mind, that you didn't expect when you came into this role?

Dr. Rochelle Ford: So this is, was probably just totally irrelevant to a bunch of anything, but when I was in, um, when I was in Denmark, I was, I was sitting in, in a cafe and I was looking around.

I'm like, people are really tall here. And I realized how short I'm, and I, I, I never thought about which countries have really tall people and which countries have really short people until I started hanging out with more of our European. Um, members. Mm-hmm. And, um, they are, um, whether it's the Netherlands or or, or the Nordic region, they're, they're a lot taller than, um, but that's probably not what you were looking for.

Steve Halsey: I, I asked, I asked for, I asked for reflections. I remember, uh, uh, like one of my reflections about international travel, so [00:41:00] he's like, what's it like? I'm like, well, you fly a long way and. You're in a cab and you're in a windowless conference room and you do a really good dinner and you go back to windowless conference room, you get in a cab, you get on a plane.

I said, but the strange thing is, is when you wait is, is when you're in a cab in a strange city and it doesn't feel weird anymore to you. But I think that's the amazing part of this profession is, you know, the opportunity to see so much and yes. And interact so much. And, and I, and I do really want to thank you for, uh, coming on the show.

You've been. You've been a good friend, you've been a good mentor of all of us. We, we love what you're doing, um, in terms of where you're steering and challenging Paige for, uh, for, for what's next. And I hope to have you back on the show when you have next year's findings and hopefully we can take that corruption thing and make it go down.

Dr. Rochelle Ford: I, I really, really hope so. I think that it is. As possible. And, and, and Steve, I really appreciate all that you continue to, to do because one thing about our industry is that the more that we [00:42:00] all, um, lean in and give that spirit of generosity, it elevates us all. We learn from each other. It's our peer community that makes us stronger.

And we're so fortunate to have you, um, as part of our community, and you make us stronger every day. So thank you for all that you do.

Steve Halsey: Well, I appreciate and uh, we will wrap on that. So thank you for joining us for this episode of Building Brand Gravity. Uh, please come back for more exciting conversations and lively conversations like the one I just had with Dr. Ford. Everybody have a great day.

Anne Green: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Building Brand Gravity. I'm Anne Green.

Steve Halsey: And I'm Steve Halsey.

Anne Green: And today we have a fun one, Steve, 'cause we're gonna dive into our first mailbag episode of 2026.

Steve Halsey: I love the mailbag, I love the mail. And um, we're a small but mighty podcast still growing, still growing in listeners, but we have been collecting questions based on our season four episodes to date.

And there's some really great one here that, uh, will not only take us down memory lane, but will also give us a lot of things to discuss and debate today,

Anne Green: which we enjoy. We'd be doing that anyway, but we're doing it here on the podcast for you. So we're gonna be covering. I think pretty much all the topics we've touched on with our wonderful slate of guests, as well as episodes Steve and I did together.

So a reminder, if you hear something in the discussion that intrigues you and you haven't had time to catch the full episode, it's based on now's your chance.

Steve Halsey: Okay, [00:01:00] so let's get started. Um, our first question that we had was Ann and Steve were a quarter of the way through the year. How are your predictions shaping up?

So, I actually went old school. I printed something here. Here, here are the 12 predictions that we made at the start of the year. I'm just gonna list the 12 and then we can, uh, we can talk about the ones, uh, that we wanna hit. AI becomes standard operating procedure. Discipline, not access becomes the AI differentiator.

The human side of AI transformation is undervalued yet absolutely critical. Rehiring emerges after overcorrection healthcare stress intensifies and signals broader system strain. GLP ones reshape multiple injury. I think we can just say we hit, uh, number seven. Uh, volatility is the baseline, not the exception.

I, I think, I think [00:02:00] that was like a gimme, um, number eight was synthetic reality triggers a trust crisis. Proof and external validation matter more than ever, cyber risk and AI slop escalate together. Corporate narrative becomes an operating system and the importance of the rise of the counselor related to human judgment, augmented by ai.

So, um, those were our 12 predictions. Um, and again, taking volatility as the baseline is a given. And how have the rest of your predictions done so far this year?

Anne Green: Yeah, I mean, we predicted volatility, but it's really gone off the charts here at the start of the year, so we'll just let that one be. Okay. So a couple of mine so far.

How are they doing? Um, GLP ones continue to make huge strides. I mean, the pill form is huge. We're speaking with clients and other experts, uh, from retail to flights, to health to food, to, I mean, it really [00:03:00] is reshaping everything. So I think we've only seen the tip of the iceberg, so I would say that. This is still a big year for GLP ones.

I feel good about that one. The rehiring question is an interesting one. There's been a lot of pushback on whether layoffs that have been done to date are truly related to ai. I think that some of that has been fully debunked. Um. There's absolutely job loss related to ai. There's, I don't wanna minimize that, but I think that we are seeing companies trying to feel out what is the right size and what's the mix of skills, and there's definitely hiring going on.

And I do think that some who cut too much are rehiring. So I, I think I get a. Kind of a progress report there. I don't know if we've fully landed the plane. Cyber and lop. What's really interesting about cyber, I mean, LOP is everywhere and I do think you see a backlash against it, especially in fields like ours, but many fields.

Um, I just saw a note today.

Steve Halsey: I today think it's Dash. Yes, I think it's Dash.

Anne Green: It has,

Steve Halsey: you can't use it without feeling like somehow it's been computer [00:04:00] generated.

Anne Green: I know, I know. The big thing that's really interesting to me on the cyber side though, is, um, the big announcement in the past week that Anthropic has put together what are called Project Glass Wing, and that is related to an unreleased model named Mythos that sort of leaked out onto the scene, which they feel represents such a threat to the internet as we know it, because it confines.

So many bugs and exploits that just have not been found by humans. Some over, I mean, they're talking about stuff in the Linux kernel that hasn't been found for 25, 26 years. So you have big, big players across financial services and technology that are getting early access in order to try to strengthen and shore up all kinds of aspects of the consumer and public internet and the, and um, the protected internet.

So, so we'll see. Those are some of mines so far, Steve, that I've been watching. What are. How are your predictions doing? Which are the ones that you were thinking about as we went into the mailbag?

Steve Halsey: You know, I think, I think they're, I think they're making, uh, making good [00:05:00] progress. But as I've reflected more over the last three months, I, I think it's important to understand the biggest prediction and the biggest theme that we're talking about here isn't AI itself, you know, the prediction that, so that I was really making about that.

Whereas really AI is a pressure point. And that certainly has become probably more true than has, has been expected. And you know, from a professional communicators and marketers, what they're dealing with is this just kind of stacking of forces. It's not just a single disruption, but you've got, you've got ai, the technology, you've got trust challenges, you've got this constant volatility.

You have a lot of sector stresses, like what we talked about in, in healthcare or. Just how supply chain has been. Uh. Corrupted just based on geopolitical changes. It's just creating this really whiplash that somebody that was in a losing situation yesterday, now all of a sudden is in a winning [00:06:00] situation just based on how supply chains change.

So that sector says all these stuff create this compounding effect that leaders aren't just struggling with a single change, they're just struggling with the simultaneous nature of this all and needing. To innovate at the same time. So, so I don't know. I'll play a bit of a contrarian. I think we're less in a disruptive moment and more in a compressive moment where everything is just pulling together really fast and, and it's a point where clarity and leadership and clarity and communication, I think is more critical than ever.

Anne Green: Yeah, it's, it's interesting if it's disruption, um, sort of indicates a deviation from the norm. Like it's, to me, inherently encoded in the word. And if you're constantly being disrupted, the norm feels different. So I like the idea of you redefining to like that either that compression or just constant pressure or just that's just what the world is today.

So, um, our predictions are tracking along. I think, you know, so far so good. But I like the [00:07:00] idea of Steve that we have to keep kind of reframing because it is a. It is an environment that requires constant interrogation. So we're gonna go on now to questions related to another one of our guests, a friend of the pod, Natalie Nixon, author, speaker, consultant, um, amazing person.

Uh, really someone I admire and watch her work closely. Um, I spoke to her about, um, what we called Rethinking Productivity in the age of AI related to her new book, move, think, rest, and actually her. First book, the Creativity Leap is just coming out in a new edition. So, you know, check Natalie out. But there was a quote that Natalie shared in the book and in the podcast discussion saying, this isn't as much a tech revolution as it is a human one.

And one of our listeners wanted to know to unpack that more and what that means to us both. So I don't know, Steve, I'll direct that to you first.

Steve Halsey: Well, I and I and I, I think what was really amazing about the, the discussion you had with Natalie and Natalie's book, I think if [00:08:00] 95% of us wrote that book, the title would would've been Move, think, stress.

Right. Versus versus Rest. And, and I and I, I think it's, it's really easy to get caught up in. The, the technology and the discussion and just really view it as that. But it really is, you know, as we've been talking about it, it really is about a human evolution and how do we evolve the process of creativity.

Creativity is still inherently human. You need all that judgment to pull together, to inquiry, to, um, to improvise. But it, but it really is placing kind of a premium on judgment. It's not really replacing it. So, you know, I think that's where some of the confusion happens is that people see technology, right?

And it scales the output that, but it doesn't really change. What, what becomes in inherently human, I think, and, and this is one of my contentions, I I actually argue AI is requiring us to be more [00:09:00] human in terms of, uh, in terms of what, what we think. Mm-hmm. And I, I also thought it was kind of interesting, and I wrote this down here, um, like one of the points from that discussion was again, AI increases the premium on human judgment.

The question isn't how fast, it's how meaningful. And I, I thought that was really a, really a powerful takeaway from that session.

Anne Green: Yeah.

Steve Halsey: So from where you stand, um, having really led a big part of that discussion. Mm-hmm. You know, in the past a lot of the discussion has been about value-based pricing, hours, times, materials, all of those type of things.

Um, the very traditional model that was created in the seventies and was very, very, very efficient. Right. We all use it. Oh, this is how. PR and comm shops are like, accountants are like lawyers. It just became like, uh, like a professional services model. But Natalie was really recommending that we step back and ask a fundamentally different [00:10:00] question, what is at stake if the work is not done right?

That's one of those meta things you just get running. Mm-hmm. Um, and you don't really think about that. So as many of us in the agency world try to move beyond. The hourly billing rate and that value. Can you unpack that for me? How unpack, let letting go maybe a little bit.

Anne Green: Yeah, and it's interesting too because with Natalie Nixon, Aaron Kin, and Kim sample three of our guests so far this year on our season four of the podcast, we've returned to this question of.

How the business model in this kind of professional services field is structured time and material hourly. And the reason it came up with Natalie, and she was sort of a great one to start that conversation this year, which has continued across podcasts, is that she's talking about looking at productivity differently, unpacking how it was framed in our heads and structurally during the industrial revolution, how it became that sort of time system in the, in the 20th century.

How it still is with [00:11:00] us today, as you said, Steve, even before the seventies, but certainly since the seventies onward in our field, you know, the big firms that sort of established themselves and what we do today. And you know, I was saying to Natalie, if we wanna reframe productivity, that's all well and good.

Um, but let's that help me. Conceptualize how we get to something that's like value when it's so baked into the system. It's not just you and I, Steve deciding, although we have tried and we do try to move to other types of pricing structures and contracts. The system is so oriented, right? Including our colleagues in procurement and legal, et cetera, et cetera.

And that's why Natalie's question of it would get back farther. Earlier and say what is at stake if the work is not done? I think that kind of question reframes your thinking, which is why are we even doing this work if it wasn't done? Does it matter? What's the outcome we're trying to get to? What's the real outcome?

And we say these words and we talk about this, but I felt that her framework [00:12:00] let me go deeper in it and really feel it. And I think I'm gonna be stronger at framing that for others, and that includes our own teams. Who can get caught up in our to-do list on our action items list or running down the to-dos on a call with clients or clients can get caught up with that.

And we have to step back constantly and say, why are we doing X versus Z? What is the output and the real outcome of it? And then if we didn't do it, would it matter? Because it really should matter if we didn't do it right. And, and, and I just love that conversation that Natalie helped me think through.

Steve Halsey: Yeah. And I think that that's really, really important. And it was, you know, I was at a, um, uh, was at a community dinner over the weekend mm-hmm. And I was sitting next to a individual who's in the banking industry. And of course, like all things, we got you talking about ai. How are you using ai? What about this?

Efficiency. Efficiency. Efficiency. And you know, as we were talking about it, and I [00:13:00] talked a little bit about how, you know, some of these pricing models need to change because one of the things it really opened up in my mind is just what you said, really the, the value of that output. That outcome or that council, right.

Back before we were able to be maybe a little bit more efficient in how we packaged it up. You know, it was that 30 years of expertise. You had counseling and crafting that put everything together, but now if you can craft a little bit faster. The value still is in that judgment, that perspective that, you know, um, somebody like you with decades of, of direct experience and interactions and discussions in the healthcare industry, you're gonna bring a perspective that, uh, that, that the robots are not.

And I, and so I think that's where I think sometimes we get caught too much in this idea of speed versus stepping back and thinking. And I think the other thing that's, that was really important from um, [00:14:00] that episode as well is the important to rest, I think. I think sometime a lot of us just think if we just keep pushing harder, keep moving faster, we'll finally break through.

But sometimes the best thing to do is just sit and rest and recharge.

Anne Green: I, I think that's so powerful. It's very hard to do, but that is, and Natalie would say for sure. That is where the brain really generates creative thinking, divergent thinking. I think about it like a rock skipping across a pond, letting your thoughts sort of move and skip from thing to thing.

This is a magnificent segue though to our next episode, which was Aaron Kin, who we've both known for years. Agency owner, leader, entrepreneur, then founded one of the first kind of PR oriented SaaS programs in the AI space, predictive AI now. Now he's got a very, very big AI and innovation role at a large consultancy, and that episode was called the AI Strategy Agency Should Build Now.

And the reason I think that's a great segue as you were talking about [00:15:00] this over reliance on efficiency, which by the way, we'll get to with Kim's samples. SE segment two. That's such a thread woven through here, but Erin was trying to talk again about what value actually means. Versus kind of the low hanging fruit or maybe the least imaginative uses of AI in this kind of setting.

And he had an analogy that I know caught both our attention, which is the Disney FastPass when it comes to underscoring the value of AI enabled work. So, um, one of our listeners wanted to unpack that one more, and I know it came up. A lot of people have, uh, hooked onto this. Can you talk a little bit, Steve, about how you think about that metaphor and how it helps us get beyond.

This sense of efficiency or just a race to the bottom? Well, it'll be just be cheaper, faster, you know? This is just gonna make everything devalued, which I think is the opposite of what is happening and what should be happening.

Steve Halsey: Well, I, well, I can tell you as somebody who has drug, small humans [00:16:00] and elderly humans, uh, through the Disney Park, I cannot speak highly enough of the importance of the FastPass.

Uh, and, and really kind of setting your, setting yourself up for what are those featured part of that experience? Do you really want to, uh, to, to get to the quickest? And, and for me, what really stuck about that is I just. What I liked about that metaphor is it didn't, it wasn't about efficiency. It wasn't about devolving value.

It was, how do I get to the experience I want faster? Uh, that may, in our industry, that may be an outcome, that may be the council, but how do I get there faster? And the idea is that it isn't about making the work cheaper. It is just about collapsing that that time to value, which then creates its own challenge if the expectation is everything is compressed, but, but I really like that, that idea of the fast pass in terms of just.

Framing it. And, and to me that really helped o open up the construct that, that, [00:17:00] again, you know, thinking about, you know, some of our, some of our colleagues that have, you know, 25 years of experience in agricultural communications. Once you step back and you're not thinking about time and material, the access and just the collective wisdom that's been built in that person, you know, that is the value that that you're getting, which is, which is a little bit different.

And I think part of the challenge is though, with the FastPass analogy, is, uh, it's kind of like clear, right? Eventually every, everyone gets TSA pre, everyone gets the fast pass. So the differentiator really. Becomes, you know, what do you do with the time you get back? Do you sit idle? What? What do you do from there?

So for me, it kind of is pulling its way to. The gap isn't really who has AI or access to it, but it's who's really built a discipline about it, their standard operating procedures, their embedded workflow, their narrative alignment, but [00:18:00] also to have the perspective and the curiosity and, and somewhat the joy.

To try and use it to unleash that FastPass, uh, a little bit, uh, a little bit faster. Mm-hmm. Here's a, here's a question for you, Ann, that came in from one of our, uh, from one of our listeners, said, um, AI adoption is obviously a big issue right now for all companies. What are you two seeing in terms of the main challenges?

As well as approaches that are working. So I'll let you have that one. Nice little softball for you.

Anne Green: Oh, it's easy. It's only the biggest problem facing this, this moment in time. Now, and, and you know, Natalie said it earlier, this is a human revolution, not a tech revolution, or not just a tech revolution. We can argue that question.

My feeling is this is a very significant, I mean, this is not a hard feeling to imagine. This is a highly significant moment of pivot. Societally as us as humans [00:19:00] and as professionals. You've said Steve before that we have to work harder than ever individually and as a company with employees and colleagues to ensure in continued competence that you are competent in a field that is going to evolve rapidly, is already evolving rapidly, and that includes tools and resources and how you.

Use them to augment yourself, not just as you said, a race to the bottom, but it's also the relevance. How do we stay relevant in a changing world? Um, it is a large mental load right now for ai. I said, in our town hall to all of our staff, you have the parts of ai, of, you know, the parts of our brain that are looking at all of the promise, medical advances, augmented intelligence, working faster, smarter, et cetera.

And then you have the many hard things about ai, societal disruption, workforce questions, energy use, land use, um, scary things like cyber scarier, things like autonomous weapons. This all sits in people's heads at the same time, I [00:20:00] think the first most critical thing regarding AI adoption. Is for us to give our teams and ourselves permission to understand that we have to hold all those things at one time.

We can't pretend there's not truly challenging, even disturbing aspects of how this change is happening and what AI could mean for society in the world while we're also holding. The tremendous promise and even the joy and excitement of the new things we can already do because this is woven through our lives.

If we can hold both those things and then step back and say again, what is at stake here? That human judgment, the expertise we bring to it, including. Um, the expertise we're building among our younger staff as well. Then I think we have a better way to get around some of those more psychological aspects of adoption and also encouraging people to interrupt their own workflows.

You have to find new ways of working and really it takes many layers. It takes a lot [00:21:00] of different types of programs and support at once. Has to come top down, bottom up, peer to peer counsel, the whole all of it at once. But then together we can advance this because I do think we have to remember it is the human that has to evolve along with this alongside the technology.

So

Steve Halsey: hundred. A hundred percent. A hundred percent.

Anne Green: Yeah. So I guess if you're good, let's go on to one of your and my episodes. This was a solo Ann and Steve show, and it was based around a concept that you've been cooking for a while and that I am very taken with, which is your narrative. Is your operating system, and we had a whole discussion about that.

So if anyone hasn't heard that and they're at this point of this episode, I do encourage you to go back because we get quite into it. But in terms of the questions we received from folks after they did listen to it, you know, Steve, I'm gonna start with you because you are the one that has [00:22:00] sort of pulled this together.

How is narrative in this context? If narrative is your operating system, your os, how is that different? Than brand or organizational messaging, or are you kind of talking about something like values? How is it distinct from those things? So we make sure that our listeners understand those core concepts better.

Steve Halsey: I think the answer is yes. It's all of those things and, and more as, as I really think about narrative, just in the way that work is evolving, communication is evolving. Um, as we talked about the always on world, we are in a zero click environment. It's this idea that that narrative has really shifted from what traditionally were campaigns and messaging into.

Honestly, it's more of a governing system that aligns leadership, that aligns culture, that aligns ai output, crisis response and brand behavior are all things that, that, that come into play. And here's kind of, kind of [00:23:00] what I mean is, is that that narrative becomes your operating system. I've referred to it kind of as almost kinda like the DNA of the company.

Mm-hmm. But it's ultimately how your deci, how your company makes decisions under pressure, because everyone, and even AI is, is, is watching. So you create an internal culture, an internal way of working, an internal narrative that yes, you have messaging that. That creates your expression. Yes. You have branding that creates identity.

Yes, you have narrative which is, hey, here's the soul you wanna construct. But, and I like the way you created that definition of calling it the big N narrative is really about that decision logic. Because where this idea really started to crystallize for me was, you know, you and I have been working with a really large company that's, that's really just trying to figure out.

What is their narrative path forward? Um, and it, it became really interesting. We did a lot of [00:24:00] market research of, uh, professionals in the field, their customers, employee research media scan. And what came through to me was that there was some kind of, um, connective tissue or force that really governed how.

Organizations operate when times are easy and which are not. And it becomes the unspoken narrative that when you talk to hundreds of employees, you can really pull it in. And so, so to me that's really, when I say narrative as the operating system, that that's what I'm talking about. It's the way you behave, it's the way you talk it.

It almost creates a. It was kind of like, like a, like a, it is a shared story about a, about a company or a brand, um, that becomes really, really personal. But it's also, if it's not aligned, everybody can be operating with good intentions and run in different directions. I think the example we use was like, if somebody was [00:25:00] told to, once again, we'll go back to ai, implement an AI strategy.

Sales and marketing may look at this very much from, all right, this is gonna be all about. Um, you know, how are we gonna find efficiencies, get more customers, automate things for them? R and d may take that same directive as to integrate ai, and it's gonna think about, we're gonna fundamentally change and open up the direction we're gonna go for r and d.

The comms team may look at that and say, well, what about ethics? What about, so it can be the same challenge, but if you're running in different directions, that's when the narrative gets, gets really. Kind of pulled and strained is, does that make sense?

Anne Green: Yeah. Well, to build on that, I mean, I wanna build your metaphor out one more, which is something I think we're seeing where it really is, um, a pressure, and I'll give you a follow up question then after that, on the AI side.

A lot of companies right now are directing their AI message to the street, meaning Wall Street and to investors because [00:26:00] everybody feels like, well, they have to have an AI strategy and it has to be articulated. And what's happening is that's where some of those layoffs or downsizings are getting perhaps overly attributed to ai.

And then you have a real alienation of the employees who, if they don't feel, remember AI mental load, there's the light and the dark of it. If they don't feel empowered. Um, if they feel this is gonna disempower them, threaten their job, that there's not an ethical approach to it. That the company is sweeping the difficult things under the rug and or they're just all about AI is gonna just replace your jobs.

Why are they going to adopt the technology? So that, to me was such a crystallizing of narrative as operating system. Now, staying on AI for a minute, a follow up question, Steve, we got. Is the fact that you claimed, and I think it's very true, AI out there, especially large language models, will naturally put more pressure on a company's narrative.

And if it is fragmented or not cohesive throughout the organization, it's not gonna be [00:27:00] perfect all the time in every place. But if there's not a strong sense of what that is as an operating system, you, you get a lot of pressure and fragmentation. Talk more about that 'cause I do think that's a really excellent observation.

Steve Halsey: Well, we, we've moved very fast into a zero click environment, whether we want it or not. And, and for those, if you haven't heard the term, zero click just basically means you get served up a summary without actually clicking on a link. So almost all the browsers. Now, when you put in a topic, first thing you're gonna do is you're gonna get an AI topic or summary.

Going back to last year when I had our friends from Muck Racks on there, and we were, we were just really looking at how the large language models work and what they're scraping from news and from your website and from Reddit and from social posts and from everything else. And it's kind of pulling it together.

Well, if you've got, uh, employee or customers who [00:28:00] on rhetoric. Who aren't happy and are talking about it, but yet, you know, you're, you're, what you're pushing out on your website is talking about everything being the greatest thing since sliced bread. It's gonna kind of aggregate and average those. So it's not, it's not a controlled message that you're able to push out.

So it really accelerates very quickly if you're not. Aligned. And, and I think, you know, one of, one of, uh, one of the clients we talked to used it to use the term of saying vectors, we're all out there running and we're driving, but if we're running in different vectors, it's gonna get noticed 'cause it's gonna start pulling us apart.

Right? Kind of stretching. But if we can get aligned and get our vectors going in the same direction, that's really gonna help. And that's also one of the reasons where. In our crisis and issues management, we're doing a lot of work with companies now to prepare for the crisis before the crisis hits by staging all that [00:29:00] information.

What I find a little bit. I don't wanna say ironic, I guess I'd call it refreshing, is it's putting out all that information about the great things they do. It's creating clarity about process. It's creating clarity about investment. It's creating clarity around environmental reports and all those type of things.

So. Yeah. Anyway, I think that's where the pressure is, is that that AI is pulling from all sources everywhere and it just, you know, really to use your bad sports analogy, it's getting everybody aligned and driving with the same belief, I think becomes really critical.

Anne Green: Yep. Yep. Very true. Um, this actually leads to one more question.

We've gotten on the same topic about organizational structure and where communication sits that I, I wanted to speak to really briefly before we move on to the next one. We talked last year in season three, quite a bit about. Whether communications is in a unified structure or whether it's spread out in business units.

The hub and spoke model, there were a [00:30:00] lot of changes last year that were in the news. Um, one was in a large pharmaceutical entity and kind of shifting the comms. Away from a centralized to out and, you know, there's, there's good and bad ways to do all of this. Any kind of system can work, right? I think we netted out the fact that really, maybe the ideal is that you have a centralized comm structure, but you also have professionals embedded within the business.

You get the best of both worlds. But I think for me, this idea of narrating narrative as an operating system. That more than ever. Um, the speed of the news, the speed of crisis, the uh, two-way nature of dialogue, the intensity of interactions with all stakeholders today, how fast information travels, how AI will be changing discovery.

Um, all of that just says that. The alignment, that force multiplier of the vector, the similar vector as a force multiplier, as a collector, it's more important than ever that companies are very, very intentional. Mm-hmm. About their [00:31:00] communication structure and the locality or the like the embedding of their communications, expertise, marketing expertise throughout the organization.

And not only that, but that the points of connection are really tight, that the matrix understands itself and that those. Points of communication can flow back and forth because there's no time. In fact, I'm gonna be interviewing an upcoming guest for his new book about crisis comms, and he's talking about the speed and the intensity, and I think when I get to him in a couple episodes, we'll, we'll talk about this again.

I think it's time. Yeah. To switch gears. Oh, sorry, Steve. Go ahead. Jump in.

Steve Halsey: I was, I was just, I was just gonna say there, yeah, I, you know, I, I, I agree with that. And it's really about, again, getting that vision, the values, everything aligned and everything altogether. Kind of mo moving in that, that direction. I think where you were going to go was, uh, you were gonna talk about our friend Kim sample [00:32:00] from the, uh, from the public relations council.

Right.

Anne Green: Yes. That brings us to our most recent episode prior to this one, um, from early April, and it was called What Agency Leaders Need To Get Right Now. That's Kim Sample President of the PR Council, as you said, and it touched on a number of things that matter. I mean, one thing that I'll have you comment on that we got a question about was consolidation in our industry.

Kim and I spoke about it briefly. There's a lot of consolidation happening at the largest firms and at the holding companies. There was just. Um, questions about what trends we're seeing in this space. What are the implications? So what, what are you thinking about this moment? I mean, it's not the first we've seen in our industry, Steve, but what is it looking like to you right now as you look out there across the landscape?

Steve Halsey: Well, you, you, you're definitely, uh, it, it goes without doubt that we're seeing some of the big holding companies make really significant moves to try and get scales in, in those, in those kind of cases, trying to get, um, efficiency [00:33:00] and. Unfortunately, there are a lot, a lot of amazing professionals, um, you know, that are being put out in the street as, as part of the process.

But I also think one of the things that becomes interesting in moments like these, again, the head loss is about the big, um, job loss and the consolidation and the numbers are staggering. But I always find it interesting to see kind of the post innovation that happens out there of, you know, the people that move to new or smaller firms and have a big impact or decide to start up their own business.

Mm-hmm. And I think that's where this one's gonna be a little bit different. Because with what you can do with AI and deep expertise, I, I think it's gonna be really interesting to see how all that shakes out. I think you're gonna see a lot of, uh, a lot of different companies kind of shake out. But, but I think in the end, it's all really coming down to trying to answer this question of what, what is value?

How do we deliver value? [00:34:00] Um. And, and I think that's probably why, one of the reasons, if you look at industry consolidation in a little bit different way, you know, our friends outta Davis and Gilbert, the law firm that does a lot of work in our space, you know, when they did their, um, state of m and a last year, what they found was that a significant number of the m and as were happening with independent shops

Anne Green: mm-hmm.

Steve Halsey: Smaller type of shops. So I also think it, it. It's important not just to look at, you know, the biggest conglomerates out there and say how they go. So goes the industry. I think you're gonna see a lot of, a lot of innovation. So, but

Anne Green: yeah.

Steve Halsey: You know, also a lot of shock. I mean, what, what, what's kind of your take on that?

Anne Green: I agree. Uh, I mean, first of all, our industry is so resilient, so entrepreneurial. There's always new firms being. Made and created and sometimes undone or consolidation. We've done two of our own self-funded acquisitions, so we're one of those independent firms acquiring and growing and finding the right fit and really thriving in that.

So [00:35:00] it is hard to see, and I think because it's also in the teeth of this change with ai, and it's also at a time of just tremendous geopolitical volatility, both at home and globally, that it feels even more intense. But I think your point about innovation is well taken. I. Am excited for the future of our industry.

I think that there's a lot of upside to be had, um, for us all. Absolutely, and, and I appreciated Kim's perspective on that too.

Steve Halsey: Yeah. And I, and I guess, I guess I'm in a, I'm in a glass, um, half full mode today. So I'm, I'm, I'm kind of, I'm kind of looking at, looking at, looking at the positive and, and one of the other things that, and this was a question we got that I'm gonna send to you.

'cause I thought it was really, uh, really interesting and I view this as a positive part of the AI conversation. Um, the question was. Kim made a comment critiquing the idea of human in the loop, and he said it was good to hear someone pointing out the issues with that. [00:36:00] What is your take on a better way to think about this, given how limiting that metaphor really is of human in the loop, so.

I'm gonna give you my, my ha, my my happy mojo. Let's see how, see how we've worked there.

Anne Green: I loved that conversation with Kim 'cause she kind of caught me on it too. 'cause I use it sometimes and she just felt like human in the loop. This, I think this is almost exactly how she said human the loop. We can do better than that, can't we?

And I, I think that was such an apt critique. We need to understand ourselves, not just as, um, passive receivers of this technology, but one of the things I've been talking about, oh my gosh, in almost every episode this season and literally to anyone who will listen to me, is as leaders in our field and also with our clients, we need to be a lot more focused on defining the kind of future we seek to have for humans, for work, [00:37:00] for society.

We need to create a stronger vision. Of what would the optimal mix of human and machine look like? What are human upsides? What are machine upsides? How do we maximize those? How do we. Lean into what humans are best at. How, how do we make sure that this is a system where we end up in that positive glass half full way?

Not in these dystopic views. I mean, if you look at the matrix, like humans become batteries, that's about the darkest view one can have. But I think sometimes in our society right now, I'm joking again, in our town hall, I, I had the mock up. An old cartoon of Wizard of Oz and replace the Wizard of Oz picture with Sam Altman.

And underneath I had the caption say, oh, great wizard, what will happen to us? And it, it was a joke to break it up, but in some ways it's very serious. It's like we're sitting around waiting to see Dario at Anthropic, Sam Altman, you know, Google. What are they gonna do? What's gonna happen to us? Every report that comes out from an analyst.[00:38:00]

Like the Rinni report, people freak out, they overindex because they're trying to read the tea leaves. Look at the crystal ball. I would love to see at least as much energy and us defining the future that humans will have and want to have with, with this technology. I mean, what's your take on human in the loop, Steve?

Steve Halsey: Yeah. You know, with, with, with human in the look, you know, my, my, my take on that's a little bit, um, controversial. I like, and I understand the concept. I think it's a little bit of a defensive position. Yeah. Um, and, and what I mean by that is it's, it's not human in the loop. It should be human setting, the system.

Right. Human as architect, not reviewer. Right. So to, to me, to me, I think that's a really important distinction to think about, at least in my own mind, how I, how I'm thinking about the ability to iterate. In a way that was [00:39:00] difficult before. Now again, you get really good colleagues. You, you can iterate really well, but just that idea to, to free your mind, to think a little bit different.

So anyway, that, that's mine. Um, I'd like to hear people, uh, rather than saying human in the loop, start saying human as the architect. That I think would be, uh, would, would be important. Well, it looks like we're getting around the, uh, the magic time here of our podcast. Looking at those 12 predictions. Um, I think our track record is, uh, is going pretty good out of the gate.

Still an early call. That volatility as a baseline may just settle out at, uh, at at any second. But, but I think across the different conversations, Anne, we've been having this quarter. I mean, one thing has become clear, kind of going back to where I started. Even though we talk about it all the time, AI is not the actual story.

It's the pressure test that's really exposing our systems, our way of thinking, our way of creating [00:40:00] value. Um, and it's expo exposing how clear you are, how aligned you are, and just really. How well organizations actually operate. So maybe we close, we started with, uh, with 12 predictions. Why don't we, why don't we close with two shifts?

What's one leadership shift that you think will be pretty significant as it plays out over the rest of the year?

Anne Green: I mean, I, I think last year, Deloitte had the CTO. Deloitte had put out a stat that was widely covered, which was companies investing in ai, ai. 93% of those investments, whatever group they surveyed was going to tech and 7% to humans.

So I think. The big leadership shift for me, and I think about this every day as CEO and as a partner with you and in our leadership, invest in people as aggressively as you invest in the technology and understand this as a human, uh, change. And that we as a society and as business are likely [00:41:00] under investing in the only thing that actually thrives adoption, not just of ai, but adoption of a changing landscape.

And how about you, Steve? What's, what's your leadership shift?

Steve Halsey: I, I think for, for leadership, it's to really think about and treat narrative like infrastructure and, and operating system, not messaging. Mm-hmm. Again, that goes back to my contention that end of the day, AI is forcing us to be more human and really.

Kind of ponder that metaphorical question of what, what it means to be human, but, but in a zero click AI mediated world that we've really quickly gone to, you really don't control the outputs anymore, right? Uh, 'cause so much is being created around you. You can only control the system behind and around them.

What are those behaviors? What is that a vision? How are you aligned? And in a lot of ways, your report card has gotten a lot bigger 'cause you're being measured on everything every day. [00:42:00] So that's where it's really important, um, as a business skill, as a leadership skill to really think about narrative as one of the most critical things you can do to get your people, your customers, your organization, your industry.

Uh, to move in, uh, in a direction that you would like to see them go.

Anne Green: Well, that feels like a great place to finish, Steve.

Steve Halsey: Well, hey, thanks for listening to us and Anne, as always, I, I enjoy, uh, the conversation. This was a good mailbag episode. Please make sure you continue to, um, send us your questions and your comments.

We will do another mailbag episode and, um, if there are any episodes you missed that this may have spurred you to say, Ooh, I would really like to, uh, hear about that conversation with Kim or with Aaron. Uh, please round back, um, to building brand gravity and catch what you've missed. [00:43:00]

Anne Green: Yeah. And make sure to keep an eye on the POS podcast feed.

We're prepping some upcoming interviews and conversations I know are gonna resonate. We've got some of the new rules of crisis comms, what it means to do the heart work, the heart work of modern leadership, which I love. And we're gonna be doing a deeper dive into some recent essential research in our field that Steve, you're gonna be taking on.

That is all coming up.

Steve Halsey: Well, thank you everybody for listening to Building Brand Gravity and have a great day.

Anne Green: Take care.