Building Brand Gravity Podcast

00:00:00:10 - 00:00:20:19
Speaker 2
Welcome to building brand Gravity. I'm Kyle Turner, digital growth and analytics director here at ZnS Business Communications. And I'm actually really excited to welcome, here a personal friend of mine and also the co-founder and chief brand officer of the Chief executive Network, Lindsay Kaplan. How you doing, Lizzie?

00:00:20:21 - 00:00:24:16
Speaker 3
Hey, Kyle. Thank you so much for inviting me here today.

00:00:24:17 - 00:00:48:08
Speaker 2
It was a pleasure. I really wanted to talk to you about, community building. And honestly, the the heard of the challenges and successes that are kind of inherent with building a community of, that is an ally for a group while still being inclusive to a much broader, cohort. You and I have known each other for 20 years.

00:00:48:08 - 00:01:00:23
Speaker 2
So, you know, first and foremost, it's just kind of crazy to see, like, how much you've done when it comes to building communities. In your career, I mean, you were like, employee. What number for a Casper's that you like? I was.

00:01:00:23 - 00:01:04:01
Speaker 3
Employee number one at Casper.

00:01:04:03 - 00:01:22:01
Speaker 2
Which is nuts to me. You know, so you you actually have quite a bit of experience building a community, whether it be for a brand or, you know, for for allyship. So I guess my first question to you is, really, why did building an executive community appeal to you?

00:01:22:03 - 00:01:54:01
Speaker 3
Well. Oh, I actually, I think it's so interesting that you mentioned Casper to say go back a step because we talked a lot about community. In past jobs I've had running, brand running, you know, organic marketing. Community always comes up, whether it's the community of your followers, community of your brand advocates. So there's almost like little C community, and then there's big C, like I am opting in formally, officially to a, a community like I'm paying money.

00:01:54:02 - 00:02:19:02
Speaker 3
I'm putting it on my, you know, I have a badge and everything. And they're they're wildly different beasts. And if you can channel that that big community to behind a powerful brand that's like a two plus two equals 20 situation. So I knew when I started chief that I wanted to both build a business that was, you know, based around a community.

00:02:19:05 - 00:02:42:10
Speaker 3
But I also wanted to build a really powerful brand as well. And and managing those two has been a really, interesting parallel because they are they take very different. They have different needs, different wants. And they're sometimes in conflict. So to go back to your original question of why started chief and why I wanted to build this executive network for women.

00:02:42:12 - 00:03:04:14
Speaker 3
It came from a super personal place. As you mentioned, I was at Casper. I had been the first employee. There was a lot of guys at Casper, and they were good guys, progressive guys. But when you're a VP and you are surrounded by mostly dudes, you know the expression it's lonely at the top? Well, it gets a lot lonelier faster when you're a woman.

00:03:04:16 - 00:03:37:01
Speaker 3
And so all of the sudden, I felt this pressure to both be really good at my job, to be making great executive decisions. All of my, you know, all the work mattered more than ever. But I also had this, pressure that that I loved. But I felt like I was representing a lot of women who worked at Casper, that I was, you know, going out for those lunches and asked to be a mentor and speaking on panels about being a woman in business.

00:03:37:03 - 00:04:00:00
Speaker 3
And so managing both that executive pressure, plus this idea of being a model woman in business. I felt really lonely and I felt like I wanted to be around other women who were managing those same issues and needing something beyond the networks that I saw. I saw a lot of incredible networks for, just for women in general, which were great.

00:04:00:00 - 00:04:36:13
Speaker 3
But then I kind of became the de facto mentor there. I found really great networks for women in marketing, but I kind of also felt like I'm networking with my competitors who were maybe, you know, looking for the same jobs and partnerships. And, and it didn't feel like I could be fully vulnerable around those people. And so this concept of building a network specifically for executives felt really important for people who, again, had all that stress and pressure and no outlet and no community where they could show up and be their real, authentic selves.

00:04:36:15 - 00:04:54:04
Speaker 2
I love everything you said there. I think kind of turning that kind of personal, struggles, a bit of a strong word here, but it certainly was a personal hurdle. Personal and professional hurdle interaction. I think it's awesome. I do wonder.

00:04:54:06 - 00:05:17:13
Speaker 3
Low, low grade, like low grade, very minor. Yeah. Not it's not the struggle. You know, nobody should be feeling like it's a struggle, but definitely feeling like maybe the guys around me had a little bit easier. Like, maybe feeling like they all had this kind of networking mentality. And so yeah, I don't think I agree. I don't think it was a struggle, but it definitely felt like I didn't have that leg up.

00:05:17:13 - 00:05:26:22
Speaker 3
And I felt really, just kind of vulnerable. And this would be a great time for me to actually have more wind in my back.

00:05:27:00 - 00:05:49:10
Speaker 2
You you're talking about kind of a, A disadvantageous position. You know what I mean? And I and I and I'm trying to word it that way, because I think that you, you represent certainly a cohort that has advantages, for sure. But I think for most women in corporate America, I think this is true across the board.

00:05:49:12 - 00:06:12:00
Speaker 2
There's always going to be a level of, a level of, of advantage that you're denied. That isn't always, I guess, readily visible if you're not, like, actively paying attention the way you were a Casper. I guess knowing that and it's these are kind of like unspoken things or at least, unspoken, outside of, you know, very small groups.

00:06:12:02 - 00:06:23:16
Speaker 2
What was your approach to building this executive leadership network for women? And, like, how did you, I guess how did you and Carolyn kind of get connected in order to make this happen?

00:06:23:18 - 00:06:49:20
Speaker 3
So I was feeling that way. I knew Carolyn, my co-founder. I kind of vaguely knew of each other. Startups in New York is, there's not that many women executives in the startup scene. So, yeah. So there was enough. We we met actually, at a really crappy networking event. If you ever go to one of those events where you're kind of, like, trapped at a table and you're stuck talking to the two people next to you.

00:06:49:22 - 00:07:14:07
Speaker 3
And then there's like, like you don't actually meet everybody. And I met her at the coat check. We have, funnily enough, and we kind of both rolled her eyes like that was a waste of two hours. Stayed in touch. And so when Carolyn actually had the concept of chief, she was thinking about a co-founder. And when we we actually went out for, like, a co-founder date.

00:07:14:09 - 00:07:36:16
Speaker 3
And, and when she kind of talked about this concept, it resonated with me so deeply. I was like, I have to join you. I have to I, we have to do this together because I don't think I know I needed it. I was again feeling this loneliness and feeling burned out and stressed all the time. Loving the idea of community but not actually having one.

00:07:36:22 - 00:07:56:19
Speaker 3
So, it when she shared kind of like the broad strokes of what she was thinking about for the business, wanted to join. And one of the first things we talked about was the I actually said to her, I was like, I just, I want to be her co-founder, but I was like, I don't know if it makes sense for two white women to start this business.

00:07:56:21 - 00:08:28:14
Speaker 3
Like, I'm a mom and I'm Jewish. But, when we look at the cross-section of women in business, we see that. Yes. Like, women are at a disadvantage. But but women of color at it are at a significant disadvantage. Right. So we know that, when you look at VP through C-suite in America, only 18% of those positions are held by women of color who identify as, nonwhite.

00:08:28:16 - 00:08:56:16
Speaker 3
So one of the first things we did when we started, chief, was we say, all right, let's make sure we are surrounding ourselves by with, with diverse leaders. And, and let's start with not just representation, but accountability for us and an integration of inclusivity within this network. So for us, that meant first of all, setting a goal before we even launched of making sure that we had representation within the community.

00:08:56:21 - 00:09:19:00
Speaker 3
So we set that goal, to to double that number. We saw 18%. We set our goal at 36. Today, I believe we are at, I think we were at 33%, which is again, 15 points higher than, you know, that number in America, which we're really proud of. But I, you know, we're not quite at our goal.

00:09:19:00 - 00:09:44:19
Speaker 3
So that's something that we are working on. And integrating inclusivity and belonging into that core DNA of our business was essential for us. So that meant making sure that, you know, our workshops were always thoughtful about how are we bringing in, speakers who are who are representing different people? How are we knowing that we have a powerful cohort of women?

00:09:44:23 - 00:10:07:01
Speaker 3
How do we make sure that at a minimum, we are doing monthly, workshops around Dei because these women shouldn't just join the network. But our real mission is that they can pave the way for others so they can go back into their organizations feeling stronger and implement change, and make sure that they feel strong enough that they stay.

00:10:07:03 - 00:10:40:11
Speaker 3
They don't drop out of the workforce. And that they are supporting and promoting other women and women of color to join them in the ranks of leadership. And so we also forged identity groups to make sure that even within chief, that there were subsets of communities to make sure that, again, the problems and challenges of black women, of, indigenous women, within chief, that they could come together with a facilitator and have subcommunities that were private, vetted and secure for them to talk through.

00:10:40:13 - 00:11:02:13
Speaker 3
So it was definitely the foundation of of what we built. And I think a lot about, I think a lot about making a cake. Like, you can't make a cake without eggs and smear the eggs on later. It had it has to be mixed in at the very beginning. So that was really important for us when we thought about what this community would be.

00:11:02:15 - 00:11:35:22
Speaker 3
And I remember, I have an acquaintance, CoA back, who was working on a book called White Feminism, which I hadn't even known the term. I didn't know what white feminism was. And I'm so glad that co-op, prior to her book being published, walked me through kind of, again, the like the concept of what it is when women are only looking out for white women and not thinking through, you know, the, the intersectionality that comes with being a woman, specifically a woman for us at an executive level in business.

00:11:36:00 - 00:11:57:20
Speaker 2
You touched on a few points there that I want to kind of double click on, specifically the the point you make about being, two white women starting a, a network that seeks to be as inclusive as possible. Where did your biases seep in? You know, because you mentioned white feminism, I think I think it's a really it's obviously a really smart book.

00:11:58:01 - 00:12:24:20
Speaker 2
I've I've heard much about it. My mother in law has actually read it. But I think these are things that people don't readily think about if they don't have to. So I'm curious, as you were building, chief at the beginning, like where where were your biases creeping in? What kind of strategies did you have to employ in order to ensure that you weren't kind of floating through some of those, ignoring them?

00:12:24:22 - 00:12:30:20
Speaker 2
In the worst case, and actually integrating them into your strategy for building cheap.

00:12:30:22 - 00:12:54:15
Speaker 3
I'll give you a good example. I think of some of my bias, which is I came in to chief thinking, if I build a great experience for for chief, for women who join chief. I've done my job. And when the experience isn't that great, I'll fix it. And I think what I, what I know, what I didn't think about is what an experience is.

00:12:54:15 - 00:13:25:02
Speaker 3
Not great if there's something wrong or if somebody doesn't have a, you know, a good meeting or, or, you know, like it's a yearlong membership. We're not perfect. But hopefully like, net net, the experience is, you know, pound for pound, worth it. I don't think I realize when someone doesn't have a good experience. And they are a woman of color that bad experiences magnified because you're not just thinking about I didn't like it.

00:13:25:04 - 00:14:03:06
Speaker 3
You're thinking about. I didn't like it. And. And was that about me? Was there. Was there more here than meets the eye? So as a white woman, sometimes if I don't like a conversation or if I feel like the women in the conversation aren't giving me what I need, I just think wasn't a great conversation. But what I didn't pay attention to is if you are the only person in the room, if you are the only you know Asian woman in the room and you feel like it wasn't a great conversation, then, then you're also feeling a sense of disenfranchisement, of feeling like an only a feeling like maybe that conversation wasn't good because I

00:14:03:06 - 00:14:27:01
Speaker 3
don't belong here. And so not thinking through that lens was, was real bias from again, as a white woman that I didn't think about. I just thought, you know, I got to build a good experience and, and make it, you know, feel like everybody should belong. But what does it actually mean to build something that is thinking through the filters of all of that?

00:14:27:03 - 00:14:55:18
Speaker 3
Again, like that intersectional experience that I don't have as a white woman that I need to make sure is at the forefront of building different experiences throughout, chief, to really make sure we are nailing belong, belonging, nailing inclusivity, and knowing that if the experience, fails somebody out, then I failed somebody. Then chief has failed you. Then we need to go back and make sure that we are doing a better job and learning lessons on how to make that better.

00:14:55:20 - 00:15:35:23
Speaker 2
I think, there's so much that comes to for when you're talking about, leadership, community building, whether it's at a place like chief or whether it's at an agency like the one, I work at Jones. It's difficult, I think, at times to kind of consciously make those choices because it requires effort, requires kind of a forceful, intentional, action based approach to seeing those, noticing them and not deciding that they are too big, too weighty to tackle and that that therefore letting ignoring them, letting them fester, etc..

00:15:36:01 - 00:16:16:17
Speaker 2
So I guess kind of knowing that and as you're, as you've seen such exponential growth over the last, three years, you know, I started chief in 2019, we're now four years, three and a half years into that. And so this great experiment, what's been, I guess, the prevailing lesson, that you've learned about building, again, a community that seeks to create allyship among a diverse, subset of women, but women, but also kind of remaining inclusive within that, that community such that you don't turn people away.

00:16:16:17 - 00:16:22:10
Speaker 2
And to your point that you don't feel like chief has failed anyone.

00:16:22:12 - 00:16:50:20
Speaker 3
Yeah. So I think what's interesting about chief is that you do have to apply that it is specifically for, women who are meet our criteria as executive leaders. And we do that specifically because, again, there are a lot of incredible organizations for women who are, you know, solopreneurs who are, not yet at an executive level.

00:16:50:22 - 00:17:16:11
Speaker 3
And I go back to that experience of feeling like as an executive, that I end up becoming the mentor, that I can't necessarily feel vulnerable and go through my own kind of, business, challenges with people who don't, for lack of a better phrase, get it, get the experience that I'm going through. So chief is specifically for that woman.

00:17:16:13 - 00:17:53:18
Speaker 3
From there. Yes. We absolutely. Then center belonging and inclusivity, at the forefront of what we do because we're building a community for those people. And I think what we've learned is if our mission is to change the face of leadership, then we are starting with chief. But we are not ending with chief. We know that there is pent up demand for other cohorts of of individuals who want what chief represents, which is this, combination of community group learning, peer mentorship, allyship.

00:17:53:20 - 00:18:17:09
Speaker 3
We know that that is resonated with. I mean, I we have 20,000 members so far. And so I think for us, the real learning is we can't stop here and we need to think through how we can democra ties, what we do for more groups, for more cohorts. Because I think it's it's really special. We know our members love what they get from Chief.

00:18:17:09 - 00:18:22:09
Speaker 3
And so our goal is to extend that, eventually to reach more people.

00:18:22:11 - 00:18:26:05
Speaker 2
How do you prevent that from becoming lip service?

00:18:26:07 - 00:18:49:01
Speaker 3
It's pretty simple. You just have to you have to. You can't just talk the talk. You have to walk the walk. Right. So what does it mean to say, and I'll give you another example. When we say that we believe in representation and that we want to hit that goal of, of doubling, women of color in leadership within our chief organization.

00:18:49:03 - 00:19:12:14
Speaker 3
That means that last year we gave out over $5 million of grants. That means that we do outreach. So we're not just waiting for applications that we outbound women to make sure that people have heard about, chief, that we'd like them to join chief. It means that we publish articles all about what it is to, to be a progressive leader in the workplace.

00:19:12:16 - 00:19:37:09
Speaker 3
How intersectionality shows up in the workplace. And when I speak about intersectionality, it, it, you know, I think there's, there's multiple interpretations of that thinking beyond just women of color and the intersection of, being a black woman, in business. But also, what does it mean to identify ageism, neurodiversity, socioeconomic class? We want to cover all of that.

00:19:37:09 - 00:20:02:15
Speaker 3
So again, it's it's putting our money where our mouth is literally like putting $5 million behind that, knowing that every year we've committed $1 million to support nonprofits, and organizations that align with our mission that we don't necessarily specialize in. So for us, we believe if women need to get to the top, we can't do that if our reproductive rights are in jeopardy.

00:20:02:17 - 00:20:28:04
Speaker 3
So, you know, this past year, we've donated hundreds of thousands of dollars to organizations that support women's reproductive rights and women's health. Specifically looking at organization. And so that focus on, underserved, and underrepresented minorities because they need more access than white women. So we we try to go really deep and make sure we are yes, we are for women.

00:20:28:06 - 00:20:42:07
Speaker 3
Yes, we are, an executive network. But we don't just want to give lip service. We truly want to make sure that we are as much as we can driving impact and, backing up what we want to do.

00:20:42:08 - 00:21:07:11
Speaker 2
Are you talking about investment? I yeah, often tell my clients that if you actually want to create a relationship with the the demographic you seek to speak to, like, you got to invest there, got to invest, and you got to keep investing there. You gotta make it such, such a common thing that it ceases to even register.

00:21:07:13 - 00:21:11:08
Speaker 2
Any kind of notice because it's happening so, so commonly.

00:21:11:08 - 00:21:33:06
Speaker 3
And that's, that's interesting though, because I think we had been doing this for years, but we didn't talk about it. And so I think what we failed to do was communicate what we were doing, what our what our Dei commitment was. We had like bare bones on our website. If you go to chief.com, if you went a few months ago, there wasn't much there.

00:21:33:12 - 00:21:57:11
Speaker 3
And so it, it was a failure on our part to really successfully communicate what we do. And I think, you know, I look back and I'm like, man, I wish we were more communicative about it. I wish we had talked to our members more about what we were doing and got feedback. Because I say all of this not in a way that I feel like I'm there's so much more we can do and there's so much more we can evolve to do.

00:21:57:12 - 00:22:22:19
Speaker 3
So our job is to listen, to get really clear on what we do and to communicate. And I think we could have done a better job listening, getting really clear and communicating with our community. But I think this is a conversation that, like every company should be having, every company should be talking. Sure. Like on a, on a regular basis, you know, quarterly at minimum around TCI.

00:22:22:23 - 00:22:46:19
Speaker 3
We've seen now in 2023 with the, you know, economic landscape, people are pulling funding now from Dei programs. I remember speaking with Ken Chanel six, who's the former, CEO and chairman of American Express, where so lucky to have him on our board. And I asked Ken, you know, if you were to grade corporate America Dei, what would you what would you give them?

00:22:47:00 - 00:23:13:15
Speaker 3
And he, he said incomplete, right. Like people made big promises in 2020, walked it back. And in 2023 we see people defunding Dei. So I think this conversation needs to be consistent. And, and have champions within an organization to make sure it it persists beyond what we had promised and continues to evolve.

00:23:13:17 - 00:23:35:10
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah. The I think the champion aspect is really important. Do you think it mattered more that you didn't or did or didn't? Whether whether or not you did or didn't is immaterial, but do you think it matters more to communicate those kinds of strides internally or externally? Because obviously, to your point, it's quite a bit of literature.

00:23:35:10 - 00:23:52:12
Speaker 2
There's quite a bit of content on your da be an eye page now. Looking at the page, months ago wasn't the case, and you were obviously kind of committed to changing that. But is is it is it worth it to communicate those kinds of things outwardly?

00:23:52:12 - 00:23:52:18
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:23:52:22 - 00:24:06:20
Speaker 2
Such that they be scrutinized constantly. Or is it better to just kind of gauge the temperature of your community, kind of continue to, to communicate to them, but just kind of move in silence, you know, like real? Geez.

00:24:06:22 - 00:24:32:00
Speaker 3
Yeah. Well, I think it's better to, to, to share it. I think I learned the lesson, which is we were doing things in a vacuum. And when you are, when you're feeling like, oh, we're doing all this good, but you're not getting feedback from the community, you're not letting the community and that's a failure. So I think my original, my original approach, which was, we're just going to do it.

00:24:32:00 - 00:24:56:12
Speaker 3
We're not going to shine a light on it. Was was a huge mess. And there's a difference between, you know, communicating and, but like, doing it in a performative way. And I think I personally was afraid of it looking performative, like I just wanted to do the work. But if you're doing the work and not sharing it out, you're not getting feedback.

00:24:56:13 - 00:25:17:22
Speaker 3
You're not like you're not letting the community in. So it was a huge mess. And to answer your other question about, is it your team or is it the community? I believe team comes first. So if you think about a community, the little ring inside is your team. You know, like the bigger ring outside is the community as a whole.

00:25:17:22 - 00:25:27:10
Speaker 3
And, you know, the team is the core part of our community. So if they're not brought in your community is not going to be brought in at all.

00:25:27:12 - 00:25:53:22
Speaker 2
I want to zoom out a little bit. So you worked at Casper. You were employee number one at Casper. So you're you're kind of building small. See community there. What what lessons did you take, from your time there? And kind of what what things did you want to repeat from your experience there? And what things were you running like, how to avoid.

00:25:54:00 - 00:26:21:09
Speaker 3
Oh, that's such a good question, Kyle. Well, what I loved about working there is I had permission to do weird stuff. So as a marketer, I. Casper really valued creativity. We had one of our brand values was called zing. Like, it had to have zing and zing meant just like a little wacky and a little, like, offbeat.

00:26:21:11 - 00:26:44:14
Speaker 3
And so. Oh, man, I did. I did some just weird marketing brand activations. I have my team will laugh at me if if they hear me say this, but I always say never bring a kazoo to a parade. Meaning like don't, don't be quiet. And little and do a little brand campaign and think that anybody's going to care like you have to be.

00:26:44:14 - 00:27:13:19
Speaker 3
If you can't afford to float, don't show up to the parade like do something else. Do something weird and different. And and I think I took that with me to chief when we launched. We had, you know, when we raised money, everybody said no. We were so lucky to have some amazing early investors who supported us when we had like, essentially like a deck that had an idea and no real business yet.

00:27:13:19 - 00:27:34:15
Speaker 3
No proof of concept. And when I started Chief, I was like, how how do I make this weird and different? So the website was basically empty. There was nothing on it. And we were sending out cold emails to people who were like, what is this? What is this women's network? And they'd show up. I blew all my budget on, on a space in Tribeca.

00:27:34:17 - 00:27:56:00
Speaker 3
So imagine you're this very powerful, influential woman, and you get this email to join this, like, Secret Society network, and you show up to Tribeca, and you walk up a staircase and what looks like some, like, bougie apartment building, and there's, like, this tiny little speakeasy looking lounge. I want, a matte, like, I wanted to be a part of that.

00:27:56:00 - 00:28:22:10
Speaker 3
And so did they. So we had, pretty spectacular product marketing fit, a product market fit. But I think that there were a lot of women's networks. And so, again, from Casper, I took this, like how do I make us stand out? And, and this kind of goes back to this, this tension between community and brand, because what we built chief on which was this, like secretive.

00:28:22:10 - 00:28:50:04
Speaker 3
What is it? Is this like a secret society, a whisper network of powerful women that worked for the first year that does not scale into an inclusive community of 20,000 women? You cannot be a secret society. You cannot do things that are, like, weird and offbeat. That, but also think through, like, the feelings of 20,000 people.

00:28:50:05 - 00:28:57:17
Speaker 3
So I think balancing brand with community has been a challenge that I didn't have to face at Casper.

00:28:57:19 - 00:29:21:02
Speaker 2
I love that, I think because, like, what you you are kind of not just co-founder, chief brand officer, part of the C-suite of that that small circle within the concentric one that you were talking about earlier, the team. But you're technically also kind of managing, again, you know, your your membership basis 20, 30,000, people strong, not more.

00:29:21:03 - 00:29:39:19
Speaker 2
I think you've got one another 60, 50, 60 on waiting was trying to get in. What is the balance between leadership like small leadership within your circle and the kind of inclusive leadership that you just described? What does it actually, tangibly look like in action to be an inclusive leader?

00:29:39:21 - 00:30:24:10
Speaker 3
I think I'm learning how to be a better, inclusive leader every day. So I think that I would be, full of shit if I could, you know, sit here and tell you like I am an award winning, inclusive leader. Because I'm still learning what it is to be a good, inclusive leader. But but I think it means just, like, really, again, understanding your weaknesses, understanding your own biases, bringing, an open mind to the table and really listening and if if I learned anything over the last six months is I have a really strong gut.

00:30:24:12 - 00:30:55:07
Speaker 3
And I have a very, like, deep, deep feeling around what I believe, chief, is to be. But I think being an inclusive leader is about stepping back and really listening with an open mind. And there's listening and there's listening and hearing and interpreting and, like, digesting what people are sharing with you about how they feel, their expectations, their disappointments.

00:30:55:09 - 00:31:29:01
Speaker 3
And, and that's inclusive leadership. It is putting your ego away and letting all of that flood over you and knowing that all of that matters. And your job is to show up and make sure you are represen ING everything you hear. All of that feedback, all of that hope, fear, disappointment, love, all of that. As a leader, you need to represent, and your job is to help both implement what it takes to to build on that.

00:31:29:02 - 00:31:34:16
Speaker 3
And create an environment that feels safe enough for people to continue to share.

00:31:34:18 - 00:32:02:21
Speaker 2
You know, I'm glad you mentioned the last six months because, anybody who's kind of read the news and kind of is in these executive spaces, you guys know, about the controversy. I think if there's been enough ink spilled on it that I won't have to get into too much detail here, but basically, chief was, livid, complaining about kind of prioritizing white feminism, which is something that you, kind of brought up, in pro, in prose earlier.

00:32:02:23 - 00:32:35:20
Speaker 2
So knowing that the last six months have represented, I think, probably one of the first, like, I guess public trials, for you and for for chief and again, for you as a leader. What was the weakness that you thought that was highlighted about yourself as a leader, that you then took to adjust, to change, over the last six months and kind of moving forward over the next five of this year.

00:32:35:22 - 00:33:08:19
Speaker 3
Yeah, I think it is being really intentional about listening. So I have so many relationships with chief members. I read all the feedback, good and bad. But we, my co-founder Carolyn, and I did a listening tour. We did 38 hour long sessions, for chief members. And I think being, again, really intentional about hearing, about feeling, about getting all of that vulnerability.

00:33:08:21 - 00:33:11:11
Speaker 2
And you thought this was a blind spot for you. Prior to this.

00:33:11:13 - 00:33:42:08
Speaker 3
I think, I don't I think I was listening, but I don't think I had set aside time to intentionally listen. And I think that, you know, listen. Every mission driven company has detractors. There's heightened expectations when you have a mission behind you, when you have those heightened expectations that that sets somebody up for disappointment. And so really, again, like putting time to listening to where, we disappointed people was really important.

00:33:42:10 - 00:34:05:00
Speaker 3
And it hits different than, you know, reading comments and, and reading emails, you know, it hits different than one. Our feedback session compared to like 38, because things rise to the top. You start hearing themes, you start hearing, certain words that, that, you know, if you did your own like word cloud, you'd be like, oh my God, like it.

00:34:05:00 - 00:34:16:01
Speaker 3
It's, a much more significant dedication to that intentional listening for me. Than passive listening. I would refer to what I had been doing prior.

00:34:16:03 - 00:34:43:14
Speaker 2
I think that's fair. And I also don't think that's uncommon for most people, let alone leaders. I think that we all have to, like, actively make a decision to not just listen, to respond, but, you know, listen to absorb and to to change and to kind of empower your cohort, whether that's your children, whether that's your membership base, whether that's your team.

00:34:43:16 - 00:35:05:03
Speaker 2
So, I mean, I think, I think you guys have kind of weathered the storm, fairly well, all things considered. But I think moving forward, I'm. I'm kind of curious, like, now that you've kind of maybe hit the other side, of this tumult. Where do you see chief? Kind of expanding. How do you see chief?

00:35:05:05 - 00:35:16:21
Speaker 2
Chief expanding? What is the future of this kind of executive leadership group kind of look like to you with all the things that you've learned in the three and a half years that that it's been around?

00:35:16:23 - 00:35:46:01
Speaker 3
Well, I don't know if we're on. I don't know if this was like a, you know, a storm that passed. I think that feedback and what happened publicly imprinted on us. I believe things imprint on you as people and as businesses. And so I don't think there's like, you know, it wasn't something we did. We didn't get sick and then recover, you know, like, all of that was important for us to go back and again, make sure that we were communicating what we were doing a lot more.

00:35:46:01 - 00:36:16:23
Speaker 3
We weren't being clear. We weren't communicating, setting up that that intentional listening. And being really focus and intentional about our mission and impact that, that we want to achieve. I think this is a conversation every company should be having. I think a lot of organizations are probably not listening. And so my hope is that, you know, the the changes we've made are not one off changes that we will continue listening and evolving chief services, evolving the community.

00:36:17:01 - 00:36:39:13
Speaker 3
As as we continue to listen to the community at large. And again, I go back to a place of a lot of the feedback was about you are serving this executive woman. What about everybody else? And so, we've we've been thinking about that for for a while. We want to make sure that we make chief as a model.

00:36:39:15 - 00:37:04:01
Speaker 3
Again, like, I want chief to the services. Everything we do for our members to come first today. But I think tomorrow, once we feel like that is, I don't know, perfected, but that, our members are absolutely loving every part of chief that we can then take this concept and say, how do we extend it? How do we reach more cohorts?

00:37:04:01 - 00:37:10:16
Speaker 3
How do we develop other communities that we can serve that have gotten the benefit that chief members have gotten?

00:37:10:18 - 00:37:23:12
Speaker 2
You said at TechCrunch disrupt, last year that you guys don't believe in the term girlboss. I agree, it's a relatively stupid term. And I do think that there are there are times.

00:37:23:18 - 00:37:25:01
Speaker 3
Kyle, are you a boy?

00:37:25:01 - 00:37:28:19
Speaker 2
Boss?

00:37:28:21 - 00:37:45:03
Speaker 2
No. I'm not. I'm just the boss, ma'am. And I think that that is exactly how you guys kind of framed it, too. It's just kind of leadership. Do you feel like there's a space for chief to create? Not just a network for current executives, but, a network for burgeoning ones as well?

00:37:45:05 - 00:38:09:19
Speaker 3
Yes, absolutely. I don't think we can achieve our mission of changing the face of leadership with just chief. But, you know, we heard loud and clear that our members want more and that we needed to evolve some of our offerings or services. The way that we bring the community together. So we're focused today there first, but in the future.

00:38:09:21 - 00:38:34:22
Speaker 3
Absolutely, absolutely. There's there's so much for us to do. There's so many, there's so many different people that we want to make sure we can engage with. So I'm excited about the future. I am a time traveler. And so I cannot wait for us to, to open more doors and serve more communities.

00:38:34:23 - 00:38:58:03
Speaker 2
I'm going to leave you with this question, Lindsey, and it's kind of a ridiculous one. So bear with, like, ridiculous questions. So we've known each other for about 20 years now. We both went to Brandeis University. I knew you back then. You haven't really changed, from a personality perspective. Very much. Maybe you're a little bit more serious, but that's about it.

00:38:58:05 - 00:39:12:05
Speaker 2
If you're like, if you're going back 20 years, being the prime time traveler that you are, what are you what are you saying to yourself? What what what advice are you imparting in yourself? 20 years ago.

00:39:12:07 - 00:39:39:19
Speaker 3
Weird question. Gets a weird answer. Absolutely nothing. Absolutely nothing. Because I'm so proud of the community that I've built. Of the team that works at chief, you know, a few stock tips. Sure. But, like, again, like the lessons that you learn in print. And so hearing me from the future. Tell me something. I don't know if I would believe it.

00:39:39:20 - 00:39:41:17
Speaker 3
Come on. You remember 20 year old Lindsey.

00:39:41:21 - 00:39:43:23
Speaker 2
I do remember to. I remember 20 or Kyle.

00:39:44:00 - 00:39:53:21
Speaker 3
She was. I mean, she was smoking cigarets. I was wearing aviator glasses to, like, parties and at night. I don't know what I was thinking, Lindsey.

00:39:53:23 - 00:40:19:12
Speaker 2
I'm. I'm really excited to see what the future of chief looks like and what the future of of you looks like. And I'm really, really thankful that you made the time to kind of talk to me about this. And I think inclusive leadership empowerment is something that's probably not going away. And I think organizations like yours, I do think help to push that, agenda because it is an agenda and it is necessary to call it that, forward.

00:40:19:12 - 00:40:24:01
Speaker 2
So again, thank you for, for, for the time and sure, continued success.

00:40:24:05 - 00:40:26:06
Speaker 3
Thanks, Kyle.

00:40:26:08 - 00:40:54:13
Speaker 1
You're listening to Building Brand Gravity Attracting People into Your Orbit, a business communications podcast. Keep connected with us by subscribing to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you like what you've heard, please rate the show that helps us to keep delivering the latest in industry influence. Thanks for listening. Until next time.

00:00:00:15 - 00:00:24:03
Speaker 2
Welcome to building Brand Gravity. I'm angry, and I'm a principal and managing director here at Chinese Business Communications, and I love my two guests. I'm very psyched about them today. So first we've got Kim Sample. She's president of the PR Council, which, if you don't know, is the US Industry Association that represents more than 100. Well, more than 100 agencies of PR, integrated marketing communications.

00:00:24:05 - 00:00:46:08
Speaker 2
And, Kim, you made me laugh when I asked for your bio and you described yourself as a 100% agency animal, which I am as well. So she's worked in big firms, small firms. She built a firm from $0 to $35 million, which I am very, very impressed by. And, she's just been an incredible leader of our profession as president of the PR Council.

00:00:46:10 - 00:01:11:17
Speaker 2
And then we have Mark McLennan, who I've known, I think Mark almost 20 years now, probably. He's worked in tech and fintech comms for 20 plus years against small firms, mid-sized big holding company agencies. And he's now general manager in the Boston office of C plus C, which is a purpose, purpose driven agency. But for the conversation today, I think what's really notable is Mark's been a big voice on ethics in our industry.

00:01:11:18 - 00:01:34:13
Speaker 2
So he's hosted Ethical Voices, dot com, the podcast since 2019, 100 plus episodes. Check it out. And also, authored a book, Ethical Voices Practicing Public Relations with integrity. Which hit number one on Amazon and its categories in 2022. Good job Mark I love that. And he was 2016 National Chair of PRC. So thank you both for joining me today.

00:01:34:17 - 00:01:36:00
Speaker 3
Awesome. Great to be here.

00:01:36:05 - 00:01:37:01
Speaker 4
My pleasure.

00:01:37:03 - 00:02:02:20
Speaker 2
So we're here today to talk about what is a hot topic generative AI. I'm sure everybody is thrilled for more content on this. But frankly, we got to talk about it. And the reason that specifically we're talking today is because the PRC work together with Mark and I and a task force to create new guidelines on the ethical use of generative AI in the communications industry.

00:02:02:22 - 00:02:20:21
Speaker 2
And this is truly I mean, you both know, a hot topic everywhere, not just in the news, but every industry association meeting we go to. I know, Mark, you said you just came back from Counselors Academy for Prsa. I'm sure it was talked about there, but I guess let me just set the stage by asking him why these guidelines and why now?

00:02:20:21 - 00:02:23:02
Speaker 2
What was the genesis of this project?

00:02:23:06 - 00:02:54:19
Speaker 3
Yeah. We had made the decision. It's our 25th anniversary and we felt like an important piece of work to launch as part of the 25th anniversary was a focus on ethics and standards for our industry, because so much is evolving, our work is so fully integrated. We just wanted to put a dedicated focus on making sure that we were being as ethical as possible and really meeting the demands of a changing society.

00:02:54:21 - 00:03:21:18
Speaker 3
And it just so happened as soon as we launched that work and I was able to attract these two amazing leaders to lead that work. Generative AI became the hot topic in our agencies. Everybody was talking about it and everybody was handwringing about it, or fast forward on it, and it just felt like a huge public service.

00:03:21:20 - 00:03:50:07
Speaker 3
If we could bring together the brightest minds in public relations focused on ethics, Dei, technology, corporate reputation, all of these different areas, if we could bring everybody together and come up with guidelines, it would be a huge success, not only for our member firms, but across the industry. And we just felt like there was so much at stake for the industry in not approaching this in a really smart way.

00:03:50:09 - 00:04:01:12
Speaker 2
Marc, what was your feeling about the urgency of it or why you said yes? When Kim approached us about taking this on, what was what was your first thought about, this is the right time to try to put guidelines.

00:04:01:13 - 00:04:25:21
Speaker 4
I was so happy. I mean, this is one of the most significant issues and transformative opportunities for PR agencies. And I thought there was a lack of clear, actionable guidance. Others have looked at it. There's been some folks that have definitely given some great advice, but I thought there was a void that needed to be filled, and I was so happy to see PR Council stepping up to fill it.

00:04:25:22 - 00:04:43:21
Speaker 2
Yeah. You know, and what's interesting about these guidelines, right. Because there's again, I mean, we all know the news cycle, right? We know how the hype cycle is something is off your radar. And then maybe you're a first mover and you start to see it cooking and then suddenly, boom, it's everywhere. And then then the the the flow changes.

00:04:43:21 - 00:05:05:05
Speaker 2
It goes up and down, right. But there's so much discussion going on. We'll get into some of the big trends as we get into this conversation. But I want to center this, the start of this conversation on the fact that these guidelines are focused around ethical use of generative AI, which is an interesting and critical to me. I agree, Mark, like right in the wheelhouse of stuff I think about.

00:05:05:05 - 00:05:26:17
Speaker 2
But let's go to you, Mark. You've been a voice, a very powerful, thoughtful and insistent voice around centering ethics in our industry for years and years since the early days when I've known you. Why talk about generative AI in that context? And why was that important? That that's how our guidelines are shaped around.

00:05:26:19 - 00:05:49:06
Speaker 4
Ethics is central to the human condition and has been the key pivot point as long as there's been humanity. Without ethical guidance. We have murder, mayhem and Machiavelli maneuvering. And I think this is a case where when people understand it, there's laws that are evolving. You know, there's going to be a lot of evolving legal issues when it comes to the use of generative AI.

00:05:49:08 - 00:06:07:04
Speaker 4
But the good part about ethics is the fundamental ethical guidelines are rules are universal and stand the test of time. So by using that to a discussion, it's a great framework to build a discussion for agencies on what you should and shouldn't do with generative AI.

00:06:07:06 - 00:06:36:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, Kim, I love that answer and I love the alliteration. Nice job there. That's I agree we would it's kind of chaos if that sense of an ethical framework ethical decision making. What is the ethical mind. How does that come into us as individuals as is into our organizations? But I'll ask you the same question, Kim. We are talking about these guidelines within the PR Council, with technologists, with the leaders in our agencies that are digitally driven with overall leadership, organizational leaders.

00:06:36:07 - 00:06:45:03
Speaker 2
Why for you, was it important or did you see the deep connection to let's look at this through the ethical lens and the PR Council code of Ethics?

00:06:45:05 - 00:07:16:05
Speaker 3
Yeah, it just made perfect sense. And I think I was spurred on by the realization that I don't think our agencies are talking enough about ethics. I think we get so busy. We're so in service of client needs and wants. But it was like an important reminder that this is central to what we do. This is the backbone, and we need to be having constant conversations.

00:07:16:05 - 00:07:27:07
Speaker 3
And I, I feel so lucky that the two of you were willing to take leadership of this effort because you so firmly believe that and model that. And, I.

00:07:27:08 - 00:07:48:22
Speaker 2
Mean, I'll build off often and riff on that. And then I have a follow up question for Mark that I know is in your wheelhouse. I do you very, very much believe that ethics is not necessarily thought of not just in our firms, but by individuals and also our society in a way that I think makes sense to how it actually operates.

00:07:48:22 - 00:08:13:04
Speaker 2
It's sort of what you said, Mark. It's a central engine, a central lens that we can deploy. And this question of I mean, you, Kim, you've heard me say this, and I think, Mark, you may have to when I do ethics training in my own firm. And I've really been very happy over the years that the PR Council has taken programs from some of the larger agencies, and white labeled them and made it available.

00:08:13:04 - 00:08:35:23
Speaker 2
And I would very I was a big consumer of those take it. I'm a very big proponent of in person or small group training, role playing, etc., because what I often say is that ethics is not, the villain with the, you know, with the black hat standing in the corner, twirling his mustache, saying, haha, I'm going to do evil now what it often is.

00:08:35:23 - 00:08:58:16
Speaker 2
And it's actually really tragic to see it. It's death by a thousand papercuts. It's a lot of small bad decisions and often huge, failure in leadership. We've seen a lot of examples out there, of where there was pressure from the top of an organization and the pressure wasn't saying, I want you to break the rules or I want you to act unethically.

00:08:58:18 - 00:09:20:17
Speaker 2
But the message was basically results at any cost. And therefore it drove a culture of permissiveness and and blind eye turning to this. So I think that for me, I agree, I was really excited about this because it was a chance to again recenter ethics in the fact that it's woven into everything. I mean, Mark, tell me you and I talked about this.

00:09:20:21 - 00:09:31:04
Speaker 2
For a lot of organizations, ethics can be kind of like a once there, check the box. What what is the challenge with that for you and what what would you rather see in organizations today?

00:09:31:05 - 00:09:54:01
Speaker 4
Well, to my mind, ethics at once your training this is effective. You go to going to the gym once a year or taking your vitamins once a year. It is not going to make you fit and healthy people do it. They check it and they go back. And it shows, frankly, that you're looking at ethics as a check the box comply initiative, and you're telling your folks that you don't have significant weight on it.

00:09:54:03 - 00:10:19:06
Speaker 4
And my dream when it comes to ethical training and I talk about this a lot, is people need to train their ethical minds because there's studies that show biologically, our initial instinct is to be selfish. And it's only when we give a deliberative thought that we tend to elevate. And I don't know about you, but there's fewer things that are less controlled chaos than a PR person's day.

00:10:19:08 - 00:10:37:22
Speaker 4
And so by having these discussions, it's like a golfer hones their swing, a batter hones their swing, you get ready to make these decisions. And what I love to have people do is both talk about it. I've senior management bring it up and make it a part of your regular meetings at least twice a month. Share relevant ethical issues.

00:10:38:00 - 00:11:01:16
Speaker 4
Did you see this? Have other staff bring in ethical issues? Discuss it. Debate the pros and cons. Look at applied scenarios that you may be dealing with. And really, that gets your entire staff to understand that you're putting ethics first. I'd say it shouldn't just be with your staff. You should share it with your clients because frankly, one of your clients know the importance you put on ethics and also what may alert your client issues.

00:11:01:16 - 00:11:20:02
Speaker 4
They may have. Because if your client has ethical failings that may come and blowback on you as well. And so you really just want to have this discussion. And the final point I'll say about that is, as a senior leader, you shouldn't be the one giving your opinion. First, you need to wait. Otherwise you're going to stand for the bait.

00:11:20:04 - 00:11:35:11
Speaker 4
And don't ever worry about running out of topics. I teach PR Ethics at Boston University, and the first half an hour of every class is what were the PR ethics issues this week? And I have never had a lack of anybody having an issue to bring up.

00:11:35:13 - 00:11:58:23
Speaker 2
Somehow that does not surprise me and our society today, but to to pick on something you said it's that training your mind and it's very important, I think, for people to understand that that moment of intentional thought, whether it's looking at through an ethical framework, it can also be trying to interrupt your own bias, which is something we talk about a lot with T, E and I.

00:11:59:01 - 00:12:23:18
Speaker 2
It can be stopping and asking yourself, what is the implications of the decision I'm making? Is there someone else I should bring into this? And this does bring us back to generative AI, because there is so much power being unfurled, and it is so transformative. And it's it's kind of, you know, the first time you encounter these large language models, especially with the release of, the various platforms of ChatGPT over the past few months, it feels like a magic trick.

00:12:23:18 - 00:12:45:00
Speaker 2
It feels amazing. It's sort of blows you away, but you start to unpeel what are the implications of this? What is the positive power, the negative power? And one thing I'd love you guys to reflect on, because it's really a personal thing as well as a business question. We're hearing now a lot of discussions. Either this is amazing.

00:12:45:00 - 00:13:06:16
Speaker 2
It's going to be totally amazing. The utopian kind of view, which always comes with tech, which is, I think, a very important energy. But there's also the destroyer narrative, which is, are we about to be in the matrix? Right. And it's interesting to see people like Geoffrey Hinton, one of the pioneers of AI, just left Google so that he can be a very open voice of, hey, this is moving faster than we realize.

00:13:06:16 - 00:13:24:22
Speaker 2
And there may be bad implications here as we get caught up as leaders and as people in this hyper zone where it's like Utopia destroyer, Utopia, destroyer. How are each of you modulating that as especially in our field? I mean, Kim, how are you weighing these two poles of discussion?

00:13:25:00 - 00:13:54:04
Speaker 3
Yeah, I mean, I think it's very interesting. And I would say that the extremes are moderating a little bit. And I feel that people in our industry are getting a bit more in the middle. And I use this evidence. We had a digital community meeting yesterday, and we were all talking about how we're using generative AI in our agencies and to a person, you know, they are not using it for client work.

00:13:54:23 - 00:14:21:10
Speaker 3
They are encouraging experimentation and they're encouraging, its use, you know, if there's a roadblock, you know, you could use generative AI, play around with it, see if it helps you open up your roadblocks. So I think we're getting to a good place, which we can take credit, you know, for really, pushing people to have these ethical conversations.

00:14:21:12 - 00:14:56:08
Speaker 3
But I think it's so important for our industry. Like that doom and gloom message was so strong for a while that our industry is going to be most affected. And I don't see that. And I think it's important for people to understand like, this is this is an opportunity. You know, you have a responsibility as a communications professional to learn, maybe to safely experiment, but to understand that really the value that we're offering to clients is still there.

00:14:56:08 - 00:15:15:02
Speaker 3
It's going to be even more so. There. But maybe there's a way that I can be used to eliminate some of the more, you know, rote aspects of our job that, frankly, nobody enjoy. So if there's an opportunity to create more exciting jobs, we're all in, right?

00:15:15:04 - 00:15:27:14
Speaker 2
Shout out to all the people of a certain age who used to cut clips out of newspapers and measure them to see what the advertising equivalency would be, and if if you didn't understand any of those words, then you're younger.

00:15:27:14 - 00:15:33:18
Speaker 4
And back then the debate was, do you tape the clips or do you paste the clips and you had people on either side?

00:15:33:20 - 00:15:35:08
Speaker 2
I really enjoyed a glue stick, man.

00:15:35:08 - 00:15:54:04
Speaker 4
That was a tape guy. But the one point I want to build on Kim. So and this is it's an interesting concern I have. I think we're talking a lot about agency and agency operations, and I go back and forth. I am more utopian of what I'm seeing, some of the technology going, but I am also, in some very specific cases, being extremely dystopian.

00:15:54:06 - 00:16:18:19
Speaker 4
Deepfakes scare the heck out of me, and the technology is getting better. And the more I learn about that, the more concerned I am. And I was. I was talking to a number of colleagues recently. If you do not have deepfakes as part of your crisis plan and you're not working and thinking about how to respond to them, you were not doing your clients a good service and you need to learn how to do it, how you can count on them and really, really how you can incorporate that.

00:16:18:19 - 00:16:25:15
Speaker 4
So in some cases, the dystopian I think is still on the rise, and I think it's going to rise for quite a while.

00:16:25:17 - 00:16:49:16
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think that's really fair. I was going to ask you guys where the things that give you the most pause. I do think that, you know, I remember and I've talked to both of you about this back when social media really first came to the fore, and I'm really thinking about blogging. We forget how revolutionary Typepad and WordPress were when you could suddenly write to the web without any coding experience whatsoever.

00:16:49:18 - 00:17:18:04
Speaker 2
And that was amazing. And in those early days of social media, kind of talking to clients about it, talking to colleagues about it, you know, we've been on this journey about what are the net positives, what are the net negatives? And I think that for me, you know, we're living in a world where we've really had to reflect very long and hard about the impact on individuals and society of algorithmic manipulation and none of us are innocent from this.

00:17:18:06 - 00:17:35:19
Speaker 2
You know, we're we are in the business of shaping perception, and so we're always under suspicion from the outside. I would allege, though, and I would say, and I feel very strongly about this, that to Mark's earlier point, our industry actually thinks more about ethics and more about what are the implications of what we're communicating because we represent others.

00:17:35:21 - 00:18:05:13
Speaker 2
We have contracts, obligations, etc.. But I it does give me a great pause. We've seen now the level of manipulation of the human brain, the behaviors that can come of it, radicalization, you know, polarization. And then when you get down to the pure deepfakes, it's it's scary. And I think you're right, Kim. I think one of the pieces I've been reflecting on is how this opens up more and more space for what we do best, which is to be counselors.

00:18:05:15 - 00:18:25:12
Speaker 2
What is the nature of how the media landscape is changing? How do you deal with things where there's no perfect or right answer? What do you you know, what is that mix of art and science in a crisis that helps you understand how to deal with this? But I think you're right, Mark. If companies aren't thinking about the implications here, it's it's pretty heavy for sure.

00:18:25:14 - 00:18:56:19
Speaker 3
There is an interesting thing you just brought to mind for me that I've been sort of pondering is, how will we train counselors when AI is doing a lot of the rote work? So, for example, when we stood at the copy machine and taped or pasted, we've read those clips. It was our job to read every one of those clips and new ideas came from that.

00:18:56:19 - 00:19:19:12
Speaker 3
So a machine can do that to some degree, I don't know. It's like if we're eliminating some of those rote tasks that train your brain and let you search for patterns, how will we develop up those analytical and counseling abilities in our young talent? I think that's a big TBD.

00:19:19:14 - 00:19:48:09
Speaker 2
It's a really good question. I mean, it makes me wonder, you know, sometimes I've been the kind of person who says very literary focus growing up of like, oh, we're not reading in this way anymore. We're not writing anymore in this way or etc. and just new technology and how it changes the brain and how you communicate. And there's a school of thought that, you know, folks adapt and they bring it in and they find new ways of expressing that, like our folks today are pulling articles, they're using already tools, but they're still ingesting it.

00:19:48:09 - 00:19:55:03
Speaker 2
Maybe the AI helps them do an analysis if they find that to be accurate. But yeah, I don't know. Mark, do you have any thoughts?

00:19:55:03 - 00:20:17:19
Speaker 4
I think it comes down, frankly, to individual agencies making their own discussion. And the specific point I want to highlight, because we had a very robust debate at CPAC over this, is on meeting notes and action items that, you know, there are tools out there right now that can absolutely do meeting notes and action items, automate the process and turn them off very quickly.

00:20:17:22 - 00:20:35:18
Speaker 4
And so the time is one. Does that let you save some billable hours and not bring a junior person to the meeting? But people be more present in the meeting. But the corollary to that is, you know, if they're if you don't have somebody, the way you learn how to pick up these key ideas and do the actual finances by doing the meeting notes.

00:20:35:20 - 00:20:55:15
Speaker 4
And so we need to decide, do you want to use AI to save time, or do you want to make sure you still have somebody there and give them that training opportunity? And I think you can make the argument either way. And that's why it's up to the agency decide what to do in our case, we've decided we want to make sure we have somebody because we want to train their critical thinking and train their ability to find those key messages, as Kim talked about.

00:20:55:20 - 00:20:59:07
Speaker 4
So we're not using it right now for that purpose.

00:20:59:09 - 00:21:30:06
Speaker 2
I think it might be also a magnificent way to to engage all generations within an organizational environment to say, hey, what is a value to you? There's obviously the judgment we can bring as more senior leaders, because we have seen professional development and sort of see the nuances of how that might shift from person to person learning style, but also to ask younger people, what are the places where you feel you really need to be at the table, and how does this bring the value for you, etc., etc.?

00:21:30:06 - 00:21:49:01
Speaker 2
I mean, there's there's so much great stuff here. I think about this very much as an organizational leader, even thinking beyond the agency context, but also as a practitioner and as a person. I mean, I think we on this kind of issue, I think we have to be considering and reflecting on this on multiple levels at all times because of the 360 nature.

00:21:49:03 - 00:22:09:01
Speaker 2
So let's talk about the guidelines for a bit. And I've got them up here on my other screen. There's a lot of great things in here in terms of we it's it's and it's aligned. And Mark you really were a proponent of this aligning the view of generative AI and the use of it in an ethical context with the PR Council's Code of Ethics that is signed by all agencies.

00:22:09:03 - 00:22:32:14
Speaker 2
These guidelines are not mandatory, but the code of ethics is. So there's a lot of good stuff in here protecting the integrity of client information, our role in society, accuracy, transparency. But for each of you, I don't know. I'll start with you, Kim. What are some of the key themes or areas of focus or topic in there? Or maybe one of the guidelines that most resonates with you, or that you would love to highlight?

00:22:32:16 - 00:23:05:23
Speaker 3
First, I just have to praise Mark for the brilliance and, you know, just using the code of ethics as the format and just work so beautifully. I think, one of the sections that I really valued, and I also enjoyed the discussion on an input from a number of people, was the, preventing bias, particularly around diversity? I thought we were able to do a really good job of creating questions for folks to ask.

00:23:06:07 - 00:23:34:07
Speaker 3
And for me, it was so important because our industry lacks diversity. So we have to, you know, overcompensate for the fact that we don't have diverse teams typically. And really all sort of teach ourselves to watch for that bias. And I think we did a good pass at that.

00:23:34:09 - 00:24:03:20
Speaker 2
Yeah. And shout out to, the individuals and the diversity, community, the CDOs, the chief diversity officers who, corresponded with who came and took a look at that because they added a lot to it. And for those who haven't looked at the guidelines yet, not only are there the guidelines themselves, but relative to that issue, there's a whole series of questions that are part of this document that one can ask to interrupt bias or recognize bias in the process of engaging with generative AI.

00:24:04:01 - 00:24:20:13
Speaker 2
And I would argue that the questions are just good in general for, putting yourself on the spot, stepping back from your normal mode and saying what is actually happening here. But Mark, the question goes to you, what was a theme or a piece of the guidelines that really resonated to you.

00:24:20:15 - 00:24:46:19
Speaker 4
For a lot of them. But I mean, we'll talk about training. I think I mentioned already, so I want to highlight something else that I think is important. That was something I hadn't quite realized the full implications of was dealing with protecting the integrity of client information and really looking at all the different ways we could potentially be compromising, ethically and legally, our responsibilities when it comes to what we may use generative AI to enhance.

00:24:47:04 - 00:25:05:09
Speaker 4
And it's really important to understand the difference between closed and open generative AI, which is something. And frankly, we were laughing. We were always where we were developing these guidelines, where they become outdated, how quickly and the good news about tying it to ethics, it doesn't really get outdated. And you may need to be mortified and updated, but the core principles stay the same.

00:25:05:10 - 00:25:27:03
Speaker 4
But the day of the webinar, we had announcing that there were some new developments when it came to closed AI. And so that's why people need to constantly learn as well. But it's understanding that in any open AI system, any information you put in there can eventually be incorporated into a large language model. And so it's things like are you then liable or are you then putting your client's data at risk?

00:25:27:03 - 00:25:37:18
Speaker 4
There's a whole bunch of elements. And I think that's something where you got to really look at what can and what should you not put into generative AI platforms.

00:25:37:20 - 00:25:57:15
Speaker 2
I think that's such a great one. And that and that's one where it was really interesting, some of the discussions we had around it, because the space is so fast moving. And I think there's also maybe a sense and no one said this explicitly, like in our task force or in some of the reactions that we got from industry and conversations I've had.

00:25:57:15 - 00:26:18:01
Speaker 2
But I do wonder too, with the large public models like ChatGPT, like the public version, if they're if people don't have an assumption, sort of like the school of fish theory. Oh, there's so many fish. Like I'm just like, it'll never pop up. Like there's just so much stuff in there. But, I think it's really important to be rigorous about that and say, you don't know that it won't.

00:26:18:01 - 00:26:43:02
Speaker 2
You don't know that it won't. It's that's the power of these models. My my favorite part. I mean, I really loved every part of this conversation because the frustrated academic in me really enjoys this kind of thing, like very deeply and profoundly. But the thing I enjoyed a lot was having a chance to reflect as a group with different points of view on what does transparency and disclosure mean in this context.

00:26:43:04 - 00:27:18:14
Speaker 2
So there were a lot of different threads of that conversation. One was, and I have great respect for the folks that brought this up, and I understand the context of why, although I will dispute it right now, you know, the sense of disclosure. Well, hey, we're already using Grammarly. I'm already using this AI is embedded like all through wherever my phone is, all through that I feel that is a little bit, I think I think it's a misguided conflation of what is sort of the evolution of not even AI tools as they exist today, and what is coming.

00:27:18:16 - 00:27:38:05
Speaker 2
So this question of disclosure, I don't feel that that can be used as an excuse. And I and again, I don't think people are proffering it as an excuse, but it's more like but this. So I think that was one big thing I had to really reflect on. And then this question of transparency, it's like if it walks and quacks like a duck, is it a duck?

00:27:38:05 - 00:27:58:23
Speaker 2
So if if we created something and X percentage of it was contributed to by generated generative AI, where is the authorship? Does it have to be 51%. Was the human? Does it have to be 60%? 70%? There's a there's a thought leader in this space and I can't remember his name right now. We can put it in the in the show notes.

00:27:59:01 - 00:28:20:04
Speaker 2
Who? One of my colleagues, Kyle Turner, in our titular group who's amazing, shared with me. And this guy was talking about the release of fix, Facebook's Lama, which is open source, a whole nother level of this thing. He calls it the next pebble in the avalanche. And he, at the beginning of his video said this. Here's my disclosure.

00:28:20:04 - 00:28:53:04
Speaker 2
This was 95% human driven. There's 5% where generative AI has created images for me. And I thought that was really, really interesting. My, my colleague Steve Halsey, who some of you know, said to me he was having a discussion at page about what if you had a generative AI spokesperson that was generated video and they if there was a crisis with a company, they that that program could be set to communicate in, you know, 50, 60, 70 languages simultaneously around the world.

00:28:53:06 - 00:29:01:01
Speaker 2
How would we feel about that? So what do you guys think about that, that use case that is really interesting to me.

00:29:01:03 - 00:29:04:10
Speaker 3
It's frightening to me.

00:29:04:12 - 00:29:21:13
Speaker 2
I mean, let's, let's, let's imagine in this thought experiment that it is the company doing it. And, and they want to be able to communicate quickly and they are using AI and it's an avatar and they're saying it's the but it still feels weird if it does it. It took him.

00:29:21:15 - 00:29:51:06
Speaker 3
At it just feels like such a thin line between good and evil on that use case, right? Like, I don't know, it's so super scary. And then if the information is wrong or dangerous or illegal, then is it the company? You know, I don't know. It just feels fraught with peril.

00:29:51:08 - 00:29:55:05
Speaker 2
What's your take on that, Mark? This one really? I was like, wow, that's so it's interesting.

00:29:55:05 - 00:30:13:17
Speaker 4
I mean, I think in the end people would be more reassured right now, at least today, hearing from a live person and making the statements in a real human, because they want to hear from the CEO or the VP of marketing, I almost bifurcated in two ways. It's one around the image and the text. And or are we creating this, the AI, creating it?

00:30:13:19 - 00:30:38:00
Speaker 4
And then to, as you said, 50 or 70 different languages. And yes, it's kind of really interesting to use with the translation automatic because there's tools that do that. But one of the things we understand is translation is in transcription. And no matter how good the translation tools are right now, they do not get the cultural nuances, which is why I tend to involve, you know, human people from the cultures that can understand and use the right terminology.

00:30:38:00 - 00:30:53:13
Speaker 4
Otherwise you're going to have something which some people assume means one thing, and everybody's talking about pop and, you know, like that's your father, while other people think it's a soda. And, you know, it's a it's another thing that you got to make sure you deal with those cultural nuances appropriately.

00:30:53:15 - 00:30:55:17
Speaker 2
Yeah. I'm originally from Ohio, so I was.

00:30:55:17 - 00:31:00:10
Speaker 4
In the past. That's sort of our bubble, if you want. Right. I mean, hey, to the water fountain. Yeah.

00:31:00:10 - 00:31:27:11
Speaker 2
No, I think I wanted to hit you guys with this sort of without warning with this use case, because it just came to me. Steve came into my office yesterday and said, listen to this. And I said, what an interesting thought experiment, because it does trigger so many questions that I think are the right questions. Again, going back to that ethical minds, the ethical decision making framework of what does it mean to have a non-person, an avatar saying this versus how will it be received?

00:31:27:11 - 00:31:55:02
Speaker 2
And for different cultures, different societies at different times, and sort of what you're implying in your answer, Marcus, right now, for many cultures and societies, probably a real person would be the more relevant thing. Will we adapt later on to where that will feel differently? And then the question of is that translation good enough? You know, it's amazing to have live time translation tools, but where does that become a net negative if we don't really understand that?

00:31:55:04 - 00:32:17:07
Speaker 2
There's just I think it's going to be very cool. And we talked about this, Kim, to sort of create a repository of use cases or interesting questions or, hey, this is what's emerging. So as an industry we can start to look at, okay, here's some obvious uses already, but here's some ones that we maybe haven't thought about yet and that that's something I want to keep on my radar.

00:32:17:07 - 00:32:24:18
Speaker 2
It's hard to do that at scale, but maybe that's as as this project, the guidelines of all of that could be something we look at.

00:32:24:21 - 00:32:49:14
Speaker 3
I agree, I think that's the power of having this task force. You know, you couldn't do this within your own firm. Most firms don't have the kind of expertise we will able to bring. You know, just even the person power to to get this work done. The one thing I wanted to mention on that use cases, how long will it be before we can't tell avatar or human?

00:32:49:14 - 00:32:52:00
Speaker 3
I mean, I don't think that's that far off.

00:32:52:02 - 00:33:22:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. And that that gets back to the deepfake question and and another piece that interested me, which is sort of the strands disclosure, transparency, authenticity. You know, there's been folks in our society that have been yearning for this singularity for decades, which is for whatever one judges to be the merger of man and machine, you know, and and that's a very kind of visionary tech utopian to me that feels dystopic.

00:33:22:11 - 00:33:43:16
Speaker 2
I just read just a lot of dystopic fiction growing up. So I'm like, oh. But, the idea of what is an authentic human expression, this is going to really challenge that, especially when it's taught to talk like us. You know, it comes out in a way that sounds human. I find it it's going to cause a lot of emotions, which it already is, clearly.

00:33:43:16 - 00:33:44:00
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:33:44:04 - 00:34:17:06
Speaker 3
I think another interesting conversation that I've been having is AI and Art. Yeah. And I have felt worried for artists, musicians, visual artists, writers. But you know in speaking with some friends they're pointing out that, you know, technologies have been playing a role in the creation of art for so long. And artists are adaptable. So maybe it isn't a threat.

00:34:17:06 - 00:34:22:14
Speaker 3
It's a, you know, eight to creating art. I don't know, Mark.

00:34:22:14 - 00:34:28:03
Speaker 2
I think I'd love to hear your point, because I think this goes back to questions, too, about being really intentional about ownership and copyright.

00:34:28:05 - 00:35:00:03
Speaker 4
No, I think so. And I think the one point I want to really emphasize, and then something we had discussed earlier, is you need to make sure you get multiple opinions, because otherwise you're going to have your bias. And I'll tell you right now, I've been a PR guy and a digital PR guy for 25 years. That's where I think, at C plus C, when we formed our AI task force, we made sure we had somebody from research, somebody from Creative, digital, multicultural, and the folks from creative that were doing all the artwork and all the other issues were bringing up ideas that I never would have considered.

00:35:00:05 - 00:35:15:05
Speaker 4
I mean, and so I think we evolved some of our guidelines to deal with a lot of that creative area, which is not something we've necessarily talked about specifically on these, because that's a point there is you need to look at as you're doing business in multiple areas. What are some of the guidelines you're going to have?

00:35:15:05 - 00:35:18:14
Speaker 4
It may be different, and you need to keep that in mind.

00:35:18:16 - 00:35:40:20
Speaker 2
I love the idea of bringing multiple points of view and perspectives to the table. And that kind of gets to the earlier thing we talked about is sort of wrestling with the dynamic tension of everything humans create can be amazing or a garbage fire like we have demonstrated ability to have both at once with everything that we create and some things are more potentially destructive than others.

00:35:40:20 - 00:36:01:21
Speaker 2
But I love the idea that because, you know, Mark, and tying back to something you said, that's the complete parallel with the question of ethics, which is more voices are better. If you have a feeling something's wrong, get to others, talk about it, get perspectives. Same thing with bias. If you feel like am I gaslighting this person? Am I?

00:36:01:23 - 00:36:20:17
Speaker 2
Am I seeing this in a way that am I? Isn't this performance evaluation of doing as someone warped because of the systems of race that surround me in the society? Like what is happening here and getting out of your hole and talking to multiple people. I love that advice, Mark. I think it's so important. So guys, what comes next in this process?

00:36:20:17 - 00:36:40:04
Speaker 2
We have this guidelines. There are going to be a living document. You know, what do you think will be the journey for this kind of project. And what are you watching most closely. I mean obviously we're not going to be updating them every week. We might look quarterly and say what's happened, but you know, Kim, what what's on your mind about where does this go from here?

00:36:40:22 - 00:37:06:22
Speaker 3
I love the idea of regularly convening. And, you know, now I'm obsessing about we need creatives. We need to get creatives pulled together and have this conversation. But I think the more time we can make to talk about this, even if we're not issuing changes to our guidelines, but quarterly, just having these conversations, I think is going to sharpen our thinking.

00:37:06:22 - 00:37:26:20
Speaker 3
And it says a lot about the thoughtfulness of our industry. One thing I wanted to share, which is just the tiniest bit of a tangent, but we did a bunch of research on early career professionals in other industries. But, you know, with the idea of how do we attract people with really valuable skills into our agency? So lore.

00:37:26:20 - 00:37:51:04
Speaker 3
Yeah. Yes. Advertising educators, we do so much education. We need educators. So we went through all of these different professions and we asked them, do they think public relations is ethical? And I'll be honest, I thought that there was not going to be a really positive response to that just because of the impact of pop culture, you know, because of the way our industry is portrayed.

00:37:51:06 - 00:38:29:00
Speaker 3
And it was amazing, like almost to a person like, well, they have to be, don't they? I mean, how can you be a public relations professional and not be focused on ethics? Well, we know you can, but I thought that that was really terrific to hear from young potential talent, and it made me want to do an even better job and have these conversations and get them out into the public a bit more, so people know we are doing this work very thoughtfully.

00:38:29:02 - 00:38:35:16
Speaker 2
Yeah. Mark, what are you think? What are you looking at as next steps or things that you're keeping your eye on as we go forward in this? Well, I.

00:38:35:16 - 00:38:49:09
Speaker 4
Think two things that I want to circle back to one thing, Kim, just talked about, about how PR is ethical. And I mean, I think one of the things that really harkens me, if you haven't looked at the other sphere studies, you know, when people are talking about it, we say being ethical is good for business. There is an ethics premium.

00:38:49:09 - 00:39:10:08
Speaker 4
I have found usually 10 to 13% are higher performance by ethical companies, by the world's most ethical company. So, you know, paying attention to these things is not just morally the right thing to do. It's the right thing to do when it comes to business as well. But in terms of what I am looking at, and I've kind of gone down another rabbit hole right now, but I think it's absolutely fascinating.

00:39:10:13 - 00:39:35:04
Speaker 4
And we're focusing on generative AI. But when you look at what autonomous agents are going to be able to do in the coming years, that is something that is it changes it even more. We got to see how effective it's going to be. But I think over time, the looking at the ethics of autonomous agents and what we're going to allow to do, which is kind of taking generative AI to the next level, is going to be a bigger deal.

00:39:35:05 - 00:39:55:05
Speaker 2
That's a really great point. There's a lot of and I think we've been around long enough to see these convergence of technology. I remember working in tech and including wireless and health care and financial services, and watching them all converge. Mark, you and I both did that in the industry is and I think we're going to see a lot of convergence of these things.

00:39:55:07 - 00:40:18:03
Speaker 2
I think for me, I am really interested in how and I think Facebook did it to kind of catch up with the others. But the release of an open source and it's not a full interface, it's not a fully paid platform. It's really noncommercial, open source software that gives other people the keys to a full, you know, a large language model that they can then fine tune for their own uses.

00:40:18:05 - 00:40:39:17
Speaker 2
And as I've dug into this more in technologists listening to this would be like, no duh. But there's just, huge amounts of smaller platforms now cascading off of that release. And how is it then our clients start to use AI internally in private models. So it's kind of like the private public cloud. There's a hybrid cloud strategy, hybrid AI strategies.

00:40:39:17 - 00:41:01:00
Speaker 2
I mean, I really feel like I want to keep digging into the tech side of it, but that's only because I always feel I was choke that as someone who's not a technologist first and foremost, I the technology train continues barreling down the track. I need to stay on at least the last car. I'd like to be farther up on the train if I can't, but I have to at least hold on to the back of it.

00:41:01:01 - 00:41:26:14
Speaker 2
So I do feel like a real responsibility to try to read as much as I can and stay updated on how these technologies are morphing and evolving in real time. So the open source thing to me is really interesting. And and it may be something that, you know, eventually some of these things sell together. And later in the year we bring the task force back together and shout out to all the agency leaders on our ethics task force.

00:41:26:16 - 00:41:46:18
Speaker 2
And we we talk about what everyone's seeing. And I love Kim by the by the way, the idea of maybe the PR Council convening specialized roundtables. Let's have another one with technologists. Let's have another one with people who identify as creatives. You know, there might be another one with the paid media professionals in our agencies, the DNI, professionals in our agencies.

00:41:46:18 - 00:41:50:19
Speaker 2
And that way, we can keep all those voices going.

00:41:50:21 - 00:42:20:19
Speaker 3
Yeah, I think that's a great path forward. You know, I just want to put a sharp point on what both of you have just said, and that is the need for public relations professionals to constantly be educating themselves in this area, particularly in the area of technology. I really think it's a mistake if people at all levels are not seeing themselves as students.

00:42:20:19 - 00:42:26:03
Speaker 3
And, it's going to be a big mess for your career if you don't.

00:42:26:05 - 00:42:35:05
Speaker 2
And isn't that the fun of being in this industry? Yeah. Constant learning. It literally is. The number one thing about especially being in the agency side. So Mark, any final thoughts for me?

00:42:35:05 - 00:42:52:06
Speaker 4
You know, I think just on Kim's point, it's a phrase I've heard used a lot. I'm going to change it a little bit. AI is not going to cost PR professionals their jobs, but PR people that know how to operationalize AI, they're the ones going to cost you your jobs or cost your agency, your clients.

00:42:52:08 - 00:43:08:02
Speaker 2
Well said. With that, I think that's the end. But, Kim sample, Mark McKinnon, always a pleasure. It's been such a pleasure to do this work together. And we're going to continue. And thank you for being on building grand brand gravity, and I'll talk to you all soon.

00:43:08:02 - 00:43:08:12
Speaker 3
Thank you.

00:43:08:12 - 00:43:11:00
Speaker 4
And thank you.

00:43:12:18 - 00:43:41:21
Speaker 1
You are listening to Building Brand Gravity Attracting People into Your Orbit, a business communications podcast. Keep connected with us by subscribing to the show in your favorite podcast player. If you like what you've heard, please rate the show that helps us to keep delivering the latest in industry influence. Thanks for listening. Until next time.

00:00:00:10 - 00:00:28:21
Speaker 3
Hello, I'm Anne Green and welcome to Building Brand Gravity. I'm a principal here at Chinese Business Communications, and I'm so pleased to welcome my guests today to the podcast, Doctor Asay Appiah, who is a professor of communication at the Ohio State University. You are a renowned communication and race scholar, who's written and lectured on the impact of strategic communication messages and media on ethnic minorities and the role that stereotypes play on intergroup interaction.

00:00:28:21 - 00:01:00:18
Speaker 3
And boy, that's so timely in our culture today. I think so much so. And you co-edited the book Advertising and Persuasion in a Diverse World and published in tons of academic journals, Journal of Communication, Human Communications Research, many more. And what was really interesting to me about your bio and maybe you can comment on this, is, it talks about helping to demonstrate to mainstream journal editors and reviewers and readers about the importance of race and why race matters in the field of communication.

00:01:00:20 - 00:01:11:12
Speaker 3
And I'm not sure if you just want to comment on that briefly, because I do think that for fronting, that question is so important, especially in the field, that we are both in, in our own ways.

00:01:11:14 - 00:01:43:09
Speaker 1
That's a great question. Thanks for the introduction. And I also want to thank you for having the opportunity to have a conversation with you today on this podcast. It's an honor to be here, and I'm extremely sighted and happy when we when I look at my research, my research centers on interracial interaction, identity, stereotype, and the effects of strategic communication messages on ethnic minorities and, ethnic majorities in my field.

00:01:43:13 - 00:02:24:04
Speaker 1
There have been times where I felt as though race didn't always matter. I would submit research papers to journals and editors or reviewers. For example, I would when I submitted research papers to journals. Oftentimes, the population that I talked about in those research papers were specific to blacks and which I thought is particularly important, but I would oftentimes get reviewers who would comment and say, hey, your research is interesting, but can you provide a comparison group?

00:02:24:06 - 00:03:00:16
Speaker 1
Can you include white populations in your research? Because audiences, are particularly would be particularly interested to know how whites compare with blacks. And to me, it somewhat, dilutes the importance of looking specifically at the black community. In order to publish my research, I was often asked if I felt like I had to incorporate whites into that research in order for it to be seen as significant and important.

00:03:00:18 - 00:03:30:00
Speaker 1
Today, for example, we're talking primarily about, kind of the impact, the empowering thing and cultivating, black talent. And it's not necessarily that we have in this conversation. We have to talk about white talent alongside of black talent. But I feel in my research, in order for me to demonstrate, the importance in my work ahead of the times, using the white comparison group.

00:03:30:04 - 00:04:00:17
Speaker 1
So that makes it particularly challenging to publish in mainstream journals where you have, readers who are overwhelmingly white. So how do you make race important, interesting to audiences who are primarily part of a racial outgroup, which are white? So how do I make talking about blacks important to white mainstream audiences? So that was the challenge.

00:04:00:19 - 00:04:25:13
Speaker 3
That's really helpful. And it had such good context from the very beginning of this conversation about these moments of centering whiteness that are not even, on the radar of many people. You know, that we talk about dominant identities, marginalized identities, and a lot of times those are acting in ways that are subconscious for folks. I think. And what you're saying is really like, well, we have to center whiteness in this, otherwise how will it be relevant?

00:04:25:13 - 00:04:53:11
Speaker 3
So I agree, let's recenter this conversation on black professionals in this industry. And let's let's be really intentional about that. And one of the things we're going to talk about today, and I'll get to in a minute, I have a I have another lead in because there's, there's some stats I want to share with you that aren't going to be very familiar to you, and I'd love to get your take on them to set the stage, but we are going to be talking about a group that you also formed at the Ohio State University called basket of the Black Advertising and Strategic Communications Association.

00:04:53:11 - 00:05:11:16
Speaker 3
And I'm so excited because in a follow up teaser to this podcast, I'm going to get to talk to the basket, some of the basket students. But to back up a little bit, you wrote a paper in 2016 that was published in the Journal of Advertising Education, and the title is fun. Some may recognize the reference here.

00:05:11:16 - 00:05:38:01
Speaker 3
Advertising Industry Diversity. We've kind of come a long way, baby, but larger pipeline and more intentional action from industry and educators needed. And in that, in the very beginning you quoted from the Madison Avenue Project some stats. This is from 2011 that at that time, black individuals represented 13% of the US population, but made up only 5% of the advertising profession.

00:05:38:03 - 00:06:06:06
Speaker 3
So our amazing digital team here at CNS helped me out and did some research and found, the Association of National Advertisers shout out to my former client and the Alliance for Inclusive and Multicultural Marketing just published a study last November and their stats were that black individuals make up 12.1% of the US population. So versus 13, but now are 7.2% of job roles in advertising.

00:06:06:08 - 00:06:30:21
Speaker 3
So, a couple things. We've gone from 5% to 7.2% between 2011 and 2022. Progress but small. And the other thing I would like to say is I recognize that's looking primarily at advertising. My field is a little bit broader lens of marketing communications, but I feel it's very, very comparable. I would feel the numbers are quite we've been a member of the PR Council and I think that would be very similar.

00:06:30:21 - 00:06:46:08
Speaker 3
But what's just to start off, I assume these numbers are not surprising to you. I mean, what is your take on this progress? Evolution? Slow, fast. I mean what what's your reaction to hearing those two bookended together?

00:06:46:10 - 00:07:25:02
Speaker 1
Well, a number of things come to mind. First, there's a, a pressing need. Part of the reason that we're here, you and I are speaking, is that there's a pressing need for companies in partnership with academic institutions to rectify the underrepresentation of blacks in marketing communication firms. And although society has become increasingly more ethnically diverse, the marketing communication industry, in my opinion, has woefully trailed behind in their efforts to diversify the workplace.

00:07:25:04 - 00:07:59:03
Speaker 1
Advertising agencies and other marketing communication firms have, in my opinion, had made little progress in hiring blacks. This is particularly troubling to me, given that, as I kind of alluded to in some of that research from my 2016 paper, that, this problem was really identified, you know, about 40 years ago by the New York, Human Rights Commission, who actually threatened to force executives of a leading ad agency to testify about their dismal record of hiring ethnic minorities.

00:07:59:03 - 00:08:38:08
Speaker 1
Really come up in and explain, hey, why is this the case? What's the problem? How has this how has this occurred? So, given a historical and current dearth of blacks in marketing communication agencies, there was a dire need to create a program that could help to address this problem. Maybe shifted a little bit, in terms of kind of why I started the black advertising as a teacher communication association because of this long history of underrepresentation of blacks in marketing communication.

00:08:38:10 - 00:09:05:08
Speaker 1
Field, if you will. So I know that agencies seek talent with strong educational backgrounds. They want young people to have relevant professional experience and a broad understanding of the industry. And in many ways, that's what we're trying to do with Bask. I created the black advertise, the Strategic Communication Association. About. Well, it wasn't about it was ten years ago.

00:09:05:08 - 00:09:07:18
Speaker 1
In fact, we just recently celebrated our 10th year.

00:09:07:21 - 00:09:11:01
Speaker 3
Happy anniversary. That's amazing. It's a big milestone.

00:09:11:03 - 00:09:48:19
Speaker 1
Thank you very much. I appreciate it. And but basket aims to do is to lead more black students to aspire to and attain, careers in advertising, PR, marketing and other strategic communication related occupations. Bhaskar also provide students with access to professional mentors. Create create opportunities for students to gain professional experience through internships. Despite our limited funding, we've been able to over the last ten years.

00:09:48:21 - 00:10:39:04
Speaker 1
Take Bhaskar, take our basket members. Roughly over 100 of them, for an annual professional development and career networking trips to major cities like New York, Chicago, Atlanta, Washington, DC to meet industry professionals and at these organizations. And we've gone not only to, all the cities we visited, a number of companies such as, on our on the Way, Coca-Cola, the NFL, CNN, Headline News, Ketchum, Edelman, BBDO, Ogilvy and may there, Chicago Tribune, Leo Burnett for rail communications and places like Spotify, Showtime.

00:10:39:04 - 00:11:10:22
Speaker 1
And of course, one of our favorite places was, Genius Communications. So while we were in New York, we were at the, Good Fortune to come to your company and visit. We had a, remarkable time. I should also mention, if I may, that we've also made an imprint here. Locally, busk has been able to build relationships with industry leaders here in the greater Columbus area.

00:11:10:23 - 00:11:59:09
Speaker 1
And many of the industry leaders at companies in the greater Columbus area has helped busker to engage and, engage our members in internship opportunities, resume workshops, life skills. And in addition to that, we have, meetings every, twice a month. And we bring in executives from all over the area here. Bask, in my opinion, has helped black students acquire knowledge, necessary skills and experience, thereby generating a pool of top graduates from which local and national agencies, can choose.

00:11:59:11 - 00:12:26:23
Speaker 1
And in that paper, the 2016 paper, I discuss some of the, for lack of a better word excuse, is that companies have used to explained underrepresentation of ethnic minorities, in particular blacks at the company, at these companies. And what we hear is that all the agencies expressed that they want to hire more ethnic minorities. Many claim they cannot find diverse can.

00:12:26:23 - 00:12:31:01
Speaker 3
Oh, yes. That's been a long time trope that I've heard over the years.

00:12:31:01 - 00:12:37:06
Speaker 1
And my argument is, well, now they can get back is helping to add to that pipeline.

00:12:37:06 - 00:12:56:17
Speaker 3
So, you know, the pipeline piece. And I want to talk about the pipeline because you've helped me deepen my thoughts about it. In reading your work and talking with you, because it's something I've reflected on for a very long time. You know, my background as an undergrad, as a liberal arts person. So I didn't come out of a communications background.

00:12:56:17 - 00:13:37:19
Speaker 3
So I'm sort of an accidental business person, accidental communications executive. But I did encounter in the late 80s, early 90s when I was an English major and a women's studies minor. And I think I mentioned to this to you when we spoke that that was the first time that I realized, as a women's studies, person who really was committed to the concept of feminism, I really ran right up against an immediate and necessary and just life changing critique by authors like Audre Lorde and bell hooks, who made it very clear to me that feminism centered on whiteness could be a social justice movement that was also oppressive and, replicating racism and systemic oppression.

00:13:37:21 - 00:13:56:03
Speaker 3
To get back to the pipeline, you know, I've, I've had a lot of angst as an executive in this field, and I should about this this whole claim of we can't find the talent, where's the talent? And that sort of sense of throwing your hands up in helplessness. And I think I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

00:13:56:03 - 00:14:12:16
Speaker 3
And obviously Basque is one answer, but the other side of it that you brought up to me in your paper is the Academy and the education side, and what it is educational institutions need to do. Do you want to talk about either of those two mentioned, those two sides of the coin?

00:14:12:18 - 00:14:51:22
Speaker 1
I think it's a partnership. And what I mean by partnership, I think it's a partnership between academic institutions and industry that we need to work together to develop and nurture, as you mentioned, cultivate and empower the black talent. The Academy has a responsibility on their side, to increase the interest in the number of majors and strategic communication, related areas.

00:14:52:00 - 00:15:34:17
Speaker 1
What that means is active recruiting and retaining students in those strategic communication related majors. It also means providing a atmosphere and environment that is conducive for those students to succeed, to have a sense of belonging. And certainly specific things that we can do is you there should be student organizations within, the academy, let's say a school of communication should have student organizations that are geared towards ethnic minorities and other community groups, if you will.

00:15:34:17 - 00:16:30:07
Speaker 1
But in this case, we're talking specifically about, blacks who have a black student organization that deals primarily with issues related to the industry, or I should say that is focused on, professional development, like basket. Other things that can be done is having a diversity or Dei committee within the School of Communication, because a Dei committee or some kind of, chief diversity officer within the school, within the department, who can have as their job to embrace diversity, to focus on issues of retention, recruitment and, and also whose responsibility it is to, engage in, connecting with, with students.

00:16:30:09 - 00:17:01:09
Speaker 1
So student organizations, dei committee. It is also important for heavily for academic institutions to reach out to high schools. And a lot of students. When I was growing up, I didn't know anything about advertising, and I didn't know anything about public relations as a kid growing up in Long Beach, California, in a very, you know, indigent, poverty stricken, gang infested environment.

00:17:01:11 - 00:17:30:16
Speaker 1
My what I focused on primarily was, sports in, in playing basketball, academics was very important in my household. My mom and dad valued, academics. But because we had no money, the way in which I felt I needed to get out of that environment and go to college was through sports. So I played basketball, got a scholarship to play basketball at Santa Clara University.

00:17:30:18 - 00:18:02:15
Speaker 1
I apologize, I didn't really go over my my educational background, but it wasn't until I got to college, in effect, to graduate school when I was working on my PhD, that I really learned anything about advertising. And I was, getting my PhD at Stanford University. And I saw that there were some fliers across campus that talked about, a chairman and CEO from an advertising agency was coming to speak at Stanford.

00:18:02:17 - 00:18:32:20
Speaker 1
In fact, he his name is Joe Mewes. He was the chairman and CEO of muse at the time. Was music Darrell and Jen that ultimately turned into music communications. And again, I'm a PC student. I'm probably, I don't know, 25, 26 years old. And I went to go watch him. I went to go listen to his, presentation and he talked about his business.

00:18:32:20 - 00:19:09:00
Speaker 1
He talked about why he started, music direction or Miss Communications, which was a, racially which was a multicultural advertising agency. And there weren't a whole lot of them. We, we had real communications, which has, been the standard historically, but there weren't many of those. And as I listened to him in Hersham talk about how much joy, how much passion he had for advertising in the industry, and as he talked about what advertising was and what it did, it fascinated me.

00:19:09:02 - 00:19:32:03
Speaker 1
So this was really the first time I was able to hear about advertising. And this was coming from a black man, chairman, CEO of an ad agency, and he was black. So at 25, this is kind of my first introduction to advertising outside of watching television. I'm looking at a guy who worked in the industry. I immediately said, you know what?

00:19:32:05 - 00:20:12:15
Speaker 1
This is an area that is open, available and accessible to me because I see someone who looks like me, who's doing it. So I say that in the context of, when you go to high schools, the academy or industry professionals, and you talk to kids about what you do, it informs them not only about the industry, but they not only do they get to know about it, they can start aspiring to careers or occupations that or, that they hear about that they see people who look like them.

00:20:12:16 - 00:20:49:04
Speaker 1
So I think it's important for industry professionals and the academy to go into high schools and talk about advertising, to get young people informed about it and to start aspiring to those careers, I think is particularly important to have, scholarships, within these schools that are specific to, diverse groups and not only specific to diverse groups rewarding in acknowledging ethnic minorities, in particular blacks who are excelling academically in those areas.

00:20:49:06 - 00:21:47:00
Speaker 1
And that's particularly important to acknowledge and to provide, a sense of accomplishment, a sense of reward for those students who are doing well because it lets them know that they can continue on in that field, and it's a rewarding one. So, and the last thing, and I'm sorry to be so long winded, it's important to provide mentors, for young people, to work with academic institutions, as industry professionals, to work with young people who are aspiring to get into com areas and mentor them, help to advise them on the right path, the right journey, let them know what pitfalls they may face in various challenges, but also help them understand

00:21:47:01 - 00:21:55:15
Speaker 1
the benefits of getting into those fields and that, the field is welcoming. It embraces diversity.

00:21:55:17 - 00:22:12:12
Speaker 3
I mean, I would say people talk about a journey, and I think it'll be a big theme of mine. And other leadership this year is trying to kind of erase zero sum thinking. And what I mean by that is that multiple things can be true at one time. We can, as she us be making and have made real progress.

00:22:12:14 - 00:22:37:08
Speaker 3
And we can also be not there yet and also not be great in other areas. You know, there can still be microaggressions or cultural issues or things that we need to work out together. So I really believe that. And one of the areas and I want to talk about this question of representation. You know, one of the things that we know we need to work on over time is representation at the highest levels of our agency, the owner group, the senior leadership.

00:22:37:08 - 00:22:57:16
Speaker 3
And we're really trying to take steps to do that. But there's always that phrase representation matters. And I think in the dialog out in the world today, there's other counterpoints to that or they're not even counterpoints, but there are other threads like diversity isn't enough. We need to get to equity. We need to get to belonging. We need to get to a real sense of inclusion.

00:22:57:17 - 00:23:16:05
Speaker 3
We need to get to justice. Or, you know, we don't want to be in the early days. And this is where all of these debates around affirmative action come in, which get very ugly and are very timely right now. But, you know, what is it about numbers? But what you're saying, and I'd love you to reflect on it more, is that I do feel representation does matter.

00:23:16:05 - 00:23:33:18
Speaker 3
To see yourself in leadership, to see that it's possible, you know, when you talk to your students, how do you think they reflect on seeing pathways through other human beings that share their experience or look like them, or part of a shared identity? How does that affect them, do you think?

00:23:33:20 - 00:24:01:12
Speaker 1
Let me elaborate on some things that companies can do. When we think about kind of representation, how do we get representation? First and foremost, we or industries, partners need to hire more people of color, in particular blacks. That starts off first and foremost with, hiring folks who have experience. Oftentimes, no one's going to get it get hired unless they have some experience.

00:24:01:12 - 00:24:47:02
Speaker 1
How do you get experience? You can't get experience unless you get hired. That happens with, internships. And I know that, internships for students are particularly valuable so that they can gain that experience and hopefully gain, the job within, a company. But so let's think about some things in terms of what companies can do when they can offer mentorship programs, which is something that I talked about before, because mentorship and guidance can help students, go down the right path and, develop experience knowledge that particularly important to be marketable.

00:24:47:02 - 00:25:39:14
Speaker 1
These two companies can advocate for diverse candidates. And I think you and I have had conversations before such that if there are people of color who work at the company, especially blacks, it's important to not only have mentorship, but to have folks in the company who advocate for, folks of color. Oftentimes, I think. This is unfortunate, but in many cases, it's important to have as a black person to have allies who don't look like you, who can advocate for you because in many cases, their comments, their, advocacy in many ways matters more.

00:25:39:14 - 00:26:07:10
Speaker 1
It holds more credibility among white mainstream employees and managers. And so that that's very important tip advocates, who look like you and who don't look like you. Also, it's important to create a workplace that embraces diversity. I mentioned some of the things that, G and S is doing in terms of things like having affinity groups.

00:26:07:12 - 00:26:44:13
Speaker 1
Having a, Dei committee. And I think you have, Janus has, both of those, this is an important one and maybe somewhat controversial in some circles, but promotions should impart be tied to the development of diverse talent we speak a lot about. Okay. Oh, we have a committee that's doing this, or we had a workshop on this or we've we've spoken to our, black professionals in our company.

00:26:44:14 - 00:27:09:01
Speaker 1
But how are we holding each other accountable if we really embrace diversity, if it's really important, then maybe part of our is as managers, as supervisors, maybe part of our promotions or our raises should be tied again in part to how we're developing talent. How are we leading? So I think that's particularly important.

00:27:09:07 - 00:27:26:06
Speaker 3
I love just to jump on that really quickly, not to take you off track, but I think it's so important because it is that question of accountability. And that's what's been missing. Now, again, the New York City Human Rights Commission tried to create some years ago, but this question of how do you embed it in your values? But then how do you make that real?

00:27:26:06 - 00:27:44:16
Speaker 3
And what are the KPIs or the key performance indicators for each person as they go? And we do have our task force and we're actually even examining like, should we still call it a task force? Is it how do we look at an ongoing body? We we haven't formed formal affinity groups yet, but many other methods of conversation.

00:27:44:16 - 00:28:04:16
Speaker 3
But I think that question of how do we and we're in our performance review cycle right now, as I talked to you today, it's like, how do we lean into helping managers at all levels understand what it actually means to incorporate the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion as a champion, as advocate, because one of the observations that I have.

00:28:04:16 - 00:28:36:06
Speaker 3
But it's like not surprising. I mean, it's something we've talked about is that bringing talented individuals in from marginalized communities, especially from the black community, because of the unique history of the United States and the unique challenges that we face in this area. To say the least, so deep in the DNA of this country, it's one thing to bring folks in, but it's another to help them feel that they want to stay, you know, and that's that's to me, even I can't you know what?

00:28:36:06 - 00:29:05:03
Speaker 3
I can't prioritize one over the other. They're both so important because we haven't we're making progress in recruiting. I'm just talking about us as the example. I know the best that I want to speak for others, but I certainly know a lot about what's going on other companies. But how how my colleagues who are here, who identify as black in America today, whether they, you know, African American, come, you know, from that history or Caribbean or Africa, you know, wherever blackness is centered in their lives, like how do they feel good about being here?

00:29:05:05 - 00:29:23:11
Speaker 3
That, that that I think is something that I didn't know if we would get to this level of conversation in the corporate world, to tell you the truth, 30 years ago. But I feel like we're starting to have it now. I mean, are you seeing that more too, in terms of retention? And, it may not be the thing that you're engaged in all the time.

00:29:23:11 - 00:29:25:02
Speaker 3
I'm just curious of your thoughts.

00:29:25:04 - 00:30:00:00
Speaker 1
You know, in society in general. And I'll probably talk a little bit about my research, what we're seeing in society, whether you're watching the news, especially when we look at the news media, much of the popular press and even some academic literature point to a bleak picture for the future of race relations. We see so much divisiveness, out in the world, at least that's communicated to us through media.

00:30:00:02 - 00:30:42:00
Speaker 1
But in my opinion, I think the negativity, the divisiveness, the racial tension that we hear is in many ways overstate. It the reason I say it's overstated. We have a tendency to focus on negativity, at least from a media standpoint. I, encourage because I see young people who have inter racial friendships. I see, middle school kids in high school kids who are interacting with other diverse groups on a regular basis.

00:30:42:02 - 00:31:17:06
Speaker 1
When I walk across campus, I see black students and white students sitting down having lunch together, talking about, exams and homework. I see much more inter racial interaction. And I, although we it's the, Bhaskar is the black advertiser strategic communication association. There are number of, diverse students who are part of my organization, whether they're black, white, Hispanic.

00:31:17:12 - 00:31:56:12
Speaker 1
So I guess what I'm saying here is that I'm encouraged because there's a lot more focus, one from academics in many industry folks and being intentional about creating environments that are conducive for, people of color to succeed in. I'm encouraged because young people are much more progressive in their thinking, and it's much more commonplace for them to interact with one another.

00:31:56:14 - 00:32:25:01
Speaker 1
And they're much more open minded, in less close minded. They don't see in many cases. And my research kind of points to this. They know a white person doesn't necessarily among young people don't necessarily see blacks as outgroups. They often see blacks as in-group members because we we look at race and we want to see that, oh, because someone is white and someone's black, they're outgroups.

00:32:25:03 - 00:32:57:23
Speaker 1
But whites, for example, don't always use race as a way of determining similarity or commonality. They oftentimes use things like social class, cuz or occupational cues to determine if one is similar to another. So the reason that outgroup and in-group aspects are important because when you start looking at someone as being different to someone who is being who is an outgroup, you engage in biases.

00:32:58:01 - 00:33:34:18
Speaker 1
It prejudices. So there's something that I call the the ABCs of, understanding key communication processes. And this is particularly important, I think, for corporate America, the ABCs are there needs to be awareness. And what I mean by awareness is be aware of the psychological mechanisms that impact our thoughts about interactions with one another. What that means is when we come across someone, we tend to immediately make similarity judgments.

00:33:34:20 - 00:34:06:00
Speaker 1
We make similarity judgments based on how people look. You know, they're superficial. But if I'm a white person, I see another white person. That person is similar to me. I begin to think that that person is part of my in-group. When I, see someone who doesn't look like me, I kind of see them as an outgroup. And that can be manifested in biases, even though it may not be, it even though may be implicit, there can be biases that causes you to not interact with someone who is different.

00:34:06:01 - 00:34:36:12
Speaker 1
So we need to be intentional about looking and interacting, having conversations with people who look different from us outside of our first impressions, of making these kind of surface and long lasting, impressions, they're often times based on superficiality. Be so there's a awareness. There's be we need to banish bias. And what I mean by that is minimize or banish cross group bias.

00:34:36:12 - 00:35:08:13
Speaker 1
That means how do we do that? We engage in perspective, taking up someone who is different from us. We engage in intergroup contact. That means literally going in, as I said before, having communication, having conversations with someone who is different. You know, what's interesting is people generally overestimate the existence of differences between their own group and those of other groups, even rival groups.

00:35:08:16 - 00:35:35:18
Speaker 1
So we tend to overestimate, you know, differences, for example, that blacks have it whites or whites have with blacks. So we have to be intentional about banishing bias, be aware of our implicit biases, and try our hardest to, be aware of that and to respond to it in the last thing, which is, see, create connections, recognize the power to make positive and meaningful connections between groups.

00:35:35:20 - 00:35:54:02
Speaker 1
Take more time to make meaningful, connections. We need more intentional look beyond, as I kind of alluded to before, look beyond the surface characteristics of others. So a awareness be banish the bias and three create connections.

00:35:54:04 - 00:36:18:05
Speaker 3
This is an amazing way. I mean, first of all, I am so heartened by your very research and data based view of as well as qualitative are being encouraged because I do feel that way as well. And I and I think my big message for everyone is that embrace, you know, and really with an open heart, the fact that you can be making progress and also not be there yet.

00:36:18:05 - 00:36:40:11
Speaker 3
And that's okay. And that's really our industry has been as a whole, very defensive. And sometimes I hear this thing of a wall or doing everything we can. It's like, no, let's just let's hold it more loosely and let's be open hearted about we're making progress. Look at it. But it's not good enough yet. Okay, great. But I love ending with the ABCs.

00:36:40:13 - 00:36:54:01
Speaker 3
And just before we sign off today and thank you for all your time. I mean, I just I love every time we talk, but is there any particular book or reference or website that you might want our listeners to check out, just that you think would be helpful to them?

00:36:54:03 - 00:36:58:14
Speaker 1
Oh man.

00:36:58:16 - 00:37:10:13
Speaker 3
I mean, some of them I know that we've read as a group is for some of us, which was really helpful to understand, sort of the underlying currents of American society. Also. Bias by Jennifer Eberhardt I know that was.

00:37:10:13 - 00:37:36:18
Speaker 1
One you know, a thing to me. I was thinking of that same book that the first one that comes to mind, because I think we need to be aware of the implicit biases that we have and how that can manifest itself in our attitudes and behaviors. So that actually was going to be the book I, would recommend, both because it gives us real understanding of those implicit biases.

00:37:36:20 - 00:37:57:02
Speaker 1
It gives us real research, provides research evidence of how these things really happen. There it isn't just, you know, in the imagination that people have bias. He definitely has them. I have them, you have them. But it's important to be aware of those. So that would be a book. That would be the book that comes to mind.

00:37:57:04 - 00:38:15:07
Speaker 3
Yeah. So that's biased. Everybody can Google it. But doctor essay up here, Ohio State University, The Ohio State University, thank you again so much for being with us today. And, everyone can look for the follow up episode where I get to talk to three of the students from the executive board of Bhaskar. Thank you so much.

00:38:15:07 - 00:38:19:16
Speaker 3
Have a great day.

00:38:19:17 - 00:38:48:16
Speaker 2
We are gas business communications. We are a team of media strategists, storytellers and engagement experts who meet you at the intersection of business and communications. To learn more, visit Gas communications.com. You're listening to Building Brand Gravity, attracting people into your orbit. A business communications podcast. Keep connected with us by subscribing to the show in your favorite podcast player.

00:38:48:21 - 00:39:00:12
Speaker 2
If you like what you've heard, please rate the show that helps us to keep delivering the latest in industry influence. Thanks for listening. Until next time.

00:00:00:10 - 00:00:28:21
Speaker 3
Hello, I'm Anne Green and welcome to Building Brand Gravity. I'm a principal here at Chinese Business Communications, and I'm so pleased to welcome my guests today to the podcast, Doctor Asay Appiah, who is a professor of communication at the Ohio State University. You are a renowned communication and race scholar, who's written and lectured on the impact of strategic communication messages and media on ethnic minorities and the role that stereotypes play on intergroup interaction.

00:00:28:21 - 00:01:00:18
Speaker 3
And boy, that's so timely in our culture today. I think so much so. And you co-edited the book Advertising and Persuasion in a Diverse World and published in tons of academic journals, Journal of Communication, Human Communications Research, many more. And what was really interesting to me about your bio and maybe you can comment on this, is, it talks about helping to demonstrate to mainstream journal editors and reviewers and readers about the importance of race and why race matters in the field of communication.

00:01:00:20 - 00:01:11:12
Speaker 3
And I'm not sure if you just want to comment on that briefly, because I do think that for fronting, that question is so important, especially in the field, that we are both in, in our own ways.

00:01:11:14 - 00:01:43:09
Speaker 1
That's a great question. Thanks for the introduction. And I also want to thank you for having the opportunity to have a conversation with you today on this podcast. It's an honor to be here, and I'm extremely sighted and happy when we when I look at my research, my research centers on interracial interaction, identity, stereotype, and the effects of strategic communication messages on ethnic minorities and, ethnic majorities in my field.

00:01:43:13 - 00:02:24:04
Speaker 1
There have been times where I felt as though race didn't always matter. I would submit research papers to journals and editors or reviewers. For example, I would when I submitted research papers to journals. Oftentimes, the population that I talked about in those research papers were specific to blacks and which I thought is particularly important, but I would oftentimes get reviewers who would comment and say, hey, your research is interesting, but can you provide a comparison group?

00:02:24:06 - 00:03:00:16
Speaker 1
Can you include white populations in your research? Because audiences, are particularly would be particularly interested to know how whites compare with blacks. And to me, it somewhat, dilutes the importance of looking specifically at the black community. In order to publish my research, I was often asked if I felt like I had to incorporate whites into that research in order for it to be seen as significant and important.

00:03:00:18 - 00:03:30:00
Speaker 1
Today, for example, we're talking primarily about, kind of the impact, the empowering thing and cultivating, black talent. And it's not necessarily that we have in this conversation. We have to talk about white talent alongside of black talent. But I feel in my research, in order for me to demonstrate, the importance in my work ahead of the times, using the white comparison group.

00:03:30:04 - 00:04:00:17
Speaker 1
So that makes it particularly challenging to publish in mainstream journals where you have, readers who are overwhelmingly white. So how do you make race important, interesting to audiences who are primarily part of a racial outgroup, which are white? So how do I make talking about blacks important to white mainstream audiences? So that was the challenge.

00:04:00:19 - 00:04:25:13
Speaker 3
That's really helpful. And it had such good context from the very beginning of this conversation about these moments of centering whiteness that are not even, on the radar of many people. You know, that we talk about dominant identities, marginalized identities, and a lot of times those are acting in ways that are subconscious for folks. I think. And what you're saying is really like, well, we have to center whiteness in this, otherwise how will it be relevant?

00:04:25:13 - 00:04:53:11
Speaker 3
So I agree, let's recenter this conversation on black professionals in this industry. And let's let's be really intentional about that. And one of the things we're going to talk about today, and I'll get to in a minute, I have a I have another lead in because there's, there's some stats I want to share with you that aren't going to be very familiar to you, and I'd love to get your take on them to set the stage, but we are going to be talking about a group that you also formed at the Ohio State University called basket of the Black Advertising and Strategic Communications Association.

00:04:53:11 - 00:05:11:16
Speaker 3
And I'm so excited because in a follow up teaser to this podcast, I'm going to get to talk to the basket, some of the basket students. But to back up a little bit, you wrote a paper in 2016 that was published in the Journal of Advertising Education, and the title is fun. Some may recognize the reference here.

00:05:11:16 - 00:05:38:01
Speaker 3
Advertising Industry Diversity. We've kind of come a long way, baby, but larger pipeline and more intentional action from industry and educators needed. And in that, in the very beginning you quoted from the Madison Avenue Project some stats. This is from 2011 that at that time, black individuals represented 13% of the US population, but made up only 5% of the advertising profession.

00:05:38:03 - 00:06:06:06
Speaker 3
So our amazing digital team here at CNS helped me out and did some research and found, the Association of National Advertisers shout out to my former client and the Alliance for Inclusive and Multicultural Marketing just published a study last November and their stats were that black individuals make up 12.1% of the US population. So versus 13, but now are 7.2% of job roles in advertising.

00:06:06:08 - 00:06:30:21
Speaker 3
So, a couple things. We've gone from 5% to 7.2% between 2011 and 2022. Progress but small. And the other thing I would like to say is I recognize that's looking primarily at advertising. My field is a little bit broader lens of marketing communications, but I feel it's very, very comparable. I would feel the numbers are quite we've been a member of the PR Council and I think that would be very similar.

00:06:30:21 - 00:06:46:08
Speaker 3
But what's just to start off, I assume these numbers are not surprising to you. I mean, what is your take on this progress? Evolution? Slow, fast. I mean what what's your reaction to hearing those two bookended together?

00:06:46:10 - 00:07:25:02
Speaker 1
Well, a number of things come to mind. First, there's a, a pressing need. Part of the reason that we're here, you and I are speaking, is that there's a pressing need for companies in partnership with academic institutions to rectify the underrepresentation of blacks in marketing communication firms. And although society has become increasingly more ethnically diverse, the marketing communication industry, in my opinion, has woefully trailed behind in their efforts to diversify the workplace.

00:07:25:04 - 00:07:59:03
Speaker 1
Advertising agencies and other marketing communication firms have, in my opinion, had made little progress in hiring blacks. This is particularly troubling to me, given that, as I kind of alluded to in some of that research from my 2016 paper, that, this problem was really identified, you know, about 40 years ago by the New York, Human Rights Commission, who actually threatened to force executives of a leading ad agency to testify about their dismal record of hiring ethnic minorities.

00:07:59:03 - 00:08:38:08
Speaker 1
Really come up in and explain, hey, why is this the case? What's the problem? How has this how has this occurred? So, given a historical and current dearth of blacks in marketing communication agencies, there was a dire need to create a program that could help to address this problem. Maybe shifted a little bit, in terms of kind of why I started the black advertising as a teacher communication association because of this long history of underrepresentation of blacks in marketing communication.

00:08:38:10 - 00:09:05:08
Speaker 1
Field, if you will. So I know that agencies seek talent with strong educational backgrounds. They want young people to have relevant professional experience and a broad understanding of the industry. And in many ways, that's what we're trying to do with Bask. I created the black advertise, the Strategic Communication Association. About. Well, it wasn't about it was ten years ago.

00:09:05:08 - 00:09:07:18
Speaker 1
In fact, we just recently celebrated our 10th year.

00:09:07:21 - 00:09:11:01
Speaker 3
Happy anniversary. That's amazing. It's a big milestone.

00:09:11:03 - 00:09:48:19
Speaker 1
Thank you very much. I appreciate it. And but basket aims to do is to lead more black students to aspire to and attain, careers in advertising, PR, marketing and other strategic communication related occupations. Bhaskar also provide students with access to professional mentors. Create create opportunities for students to gain professional experience through internships. Despite our limited funding, we've been able to over the last ten years.

00:09:48:21 - 00:10:39:04
Speaker 1
Take Bhaskar, take our basket members. Roughly over 100 of them, for an annual professional development and career networking trips to major cities like New York, Chicago, Atlanta, Washington, DC to meet industry professionals and at these organizations. And we've gone not only to, all the cities we visited, a number of companies such as, on our on the Way, Coca-Cola, the NFL, CNN, Headline News, Ketchum, Edelman, BBDO, Ogilvy and may there, Chicago Tribune, Leo Burnett for rail communications and places like Spotify, Showtime.

00:10:39:04 - 00:11:10:22
Speaker 1
And of course, one of our favorite places was, Genius Communications. So while we were in New York, we were at the, Good Fortune to come to your company and visit. We had a, remarkable time. I should also mention, if I may, that we've also made an imprint here. Locally, busk has been able to build relationships with industry leaders here in the greater Columbus area.

00:11:10:23 - 00:11:59:09
Speaker 1
And many of the industry leaders at companies in the greater Columbus area has helped busker to engage and, engage our members in internship opportunities, resume workshops, life skills. And in addition to that, we have, meetings every, twice a month. And we bring in executives from all over the area here. Bask, in my opinion, has helped black students acquire knowledge, necessary skills and experience, thereby generating a pool of top graduates from which local and national agencies, can choose.

00:11:59:11 - 00:12:26:23
Speaker 1
And in that paper, the 2016 paper, I discuss some of the, for lack of a better word excuse, is that companies have used to explained underrepresentation of ethnic minorities, in particular blacks at the company, at these companies. And what we hear is that all the agencies expressed that they want to hire more ethnic minorities. Many claim they cannot find diverse can.

00:12:26:23 - 00:12:31:01
Speaker 3
Oh, yes. That's been a long time trope that I've heard over the years.

00:12:31:01 - 00:12:37:06
Speaker 1
And my argument is, well, now they can get back is helping to add to that pipeline.

00:12:37:06 - 00:12:56:17
Speaker 3
So, you know, the pipeline piece. And I want to talk about the pipeline because you've helped me deepen my thoughts about it. In reading your work and talking with you, because it's something I've reflected on for a very long time. You know, my background as an undergrad, as a liberal arts person. So I didn't come out of a communications background.

00:12:56:17 - 00:13:37:19
Speaker 3
So I'm sort of an accidental business person, accidental communications executive. But I did encounter in the late 80s, early 90s when I was an English major and a women's studies minor. And I think I mentioned to this to you when we spoke that that was the first time that I realized, as a women's studies, person who really was committed to the concept of feminism, I really ran right up against an immediate and necessary and just life changing critique by authors like Audre Lorde and bell hooks, who made it very clear to me that feminism centered on whiteness could be a social justice movement that was also oppressive and, replicating racism and systemic oppression.

00:13:37:21 - 00:13:56:03
Speaker 3
To get back to the pipeline, you know, I've, I've had a lot of angst as an executive in this field, and I should about this this whole claim of we can't find the talent, where's the talent? And that sort of sense of throwing your hands up in helplessness. And I think I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

00:13:56:03 - 00:14:12:16
Speaker 3
And obviously Basque is one answer, but the other side of it that you brought up to me in your paper is the Academy and the education side, and what it is educational institutions need to do. Do you want to talk about either of those two mentioned, those two sides of the coin?

00:14:12:18 - 00:14:51:22
Speaker 1
I think it's a partnership. And what I mean by partnership, I think it's a partnership between academic institutions and industry that we need to work together to develop and nurture, as you mentioned, cultivate and empower the black talent. The Academy has a responsibility on their side, to increase the interest in the number of majors and strategic communication, related areas.

00:14:52:00 - 00:15:34:17
Speaker 1
What that means is active recruiting and retaining students in those strategic communication related majors. It also means providing a atmosphere and environment that is conducive for those students to succeed, to have a sense of belonging. And certainly specific things that we can do is you there should be student organizations within, the academy, let's say a school of communication should have student organizations that are geared towards ethnic minorities and other community groups, if you will.

00:15:34:17 - 00:16:30:07
Speaker 1
But in this case, we're talking specifically about, blacks who have a black student organization that deals primarily with issues related to the industry, or I should say that is focused on, professional development, like basket. Other things that can be done is having a diversity or Dei committee within the School of Communication, because a Dei committee or some kind of, chief diversity officer within the school, within the department, who can have as their job to embrace diversity, to focus on issues of retention, recruitment and, and also whose responsibility it is to, engage in, connecting with, with students.

00:16:30:09 - 00:17:01:09
Speaker 1
So student organizations, dei committee. It is also important for heavily for academic institutions to reach out to high schools. And a lot of students. When I was growing up, I didn't know anything about advertising, and I didn't know anything about public relations as a kid growing up in Long Beach, California, in a very, you know, indigent, poverty stricken, gang infested environment.

00:17:01:11 - 00:17:30:16
Speaker 1
My what I focused on primarily was, sports in, in playing basketball, academics was very important in my household. My mom and dad valued, academics. But because we had no money, the way in which I felt I needed to get out of that environment and go to college was through sports. So I played basketball, got a scholarship to play basketball at Santa Clara University.

00:17:30:18 - 00:18:02:15
Speaker 1
I apologize, I didn't really go over my my educational background, but it wasn't until I got to college, in effect, to graduate school when I was working on my PhD, that I really learned anything about advertising. And I was, getting my PhD at Stanford University. And I saw that there were some fliers across campus that talked about, a chairman and CEO from an advertising agency was coming to speak at Stanford.

00:18:02:17 - 00:18:32:20
Speaker 1
In fact, he his name is Joe Mewes. He was the chairman and CEO of muse at the time. Was music Darrell and Jen that ultimately turned into music communications. And again, I'm a PC student. I'm probably, I don't know, 25, 26 years old. And I went to go watch him. I went to go listen to his, presentation and he talked about his business.

00:18:32:20 - 00:19:09:00
Speaker 1
He talked about why he started, music direction or Miss Communications, which was a, racially which was a multicultural advertising agency. And there weren't a whole lot of them. We, we had real communications, which has, been the standard historically, but there weren't many of those. And as I listened to him in Hersham talk about how much joy, how much passion he had for advertising in the industry, and as he talked about what advertising was and what it did, it fascinated me.

00:19:09:02 - 00:19:32:03
Speaker 1
So this was really the first time I was able to hear about advertising. And this was coming from a black man, chairman, CEO of an ad agency, and he was black. So at 25, this is kind of my first introduction to advertising outside of watching television. I'm looking at a guy who worked in the industry. I immediately said, you know what?

00:19:32:05 - 00:20:12:15
Speaker 1
This is an area that is open, available and accessible to me because I see someone who looks like me, who's doing it. So I say that in the context of, when you go to high schools, the academy or industry professionals, and you talk to kids about what you do, it informs them not only about the industry, but they not only do they get to know about it, they can start aspiring to careers or occupations that or, that they hear about that they see people who look like them.

00:20:12:16 - 00:20:49:04
Speaker 1
So I think it's important for industry professionals and the academy to go into high schools and talk about advertising, to get young people informed about it and to start aspiring to those careers, I think is particularly important to have, scholarships, within these schools that are specific to, diverse groups and not only specific to diverse groups rewarding in acknowledging ethnic minorities, in particular blacks who are excelling academically in those areas.

00:20:49:06 - 00:21:47:00
Speaker 1
And that's particularly important to acknowledge and to provide, a sense of accomplishment, a sense of reward for those students who are doing well because it lets them know that they can continue on in that field, and it's a rewarding one. So, and the last thing, and I'm sorry to be so long winded, it's important to provide mentors, for young people, to work with academic institutions, as industry professionals, to work with young people who are aspiring to get into com areas and mentor them, help to advise them on the right path, the right journey, let them know what pitfalls they may face in various challenges, but also help them understand

00:21:47:01 - 00:21:55:15
Speaker 1
the benefits of getting into those fields and that, the field is welcoming. It embraces diversity.

00:21:55:17 - 00:22:12:12
Speaker 3
I mean, I would say people talk about a journey, and I think it'll be a big theme of mine. And other leadership this year is trying to kind of erase zero sum thinking. And what I mean by that is that multiple things can be true at one time. We can, as she us be making and have made real progress.

00:22:12:14 - 00:22:37:08
Speaker 3
And we can also be not there yet and also not be great in other areas. You know, there can still be microaggressions or cultural issues or things that we need to work out together. So I really believe that. And one of the areas and I want to talk about this question of representation. You know, one of the things that we know we need to work on over time is representation at the highest levels of our agency, the owner group, the senior leadership.

00:22:37:08 - 00:22:57:16
Speaker 3
And we're really trying to take steps to do that. But there's always that phrase representation matters. And I think in the dialog out in the world today, there's other counterpoints to that or they're not even counterpoints, but there are other threads like diversity isn't enough. We need to get to equity. We need to get to belonging. We need to get to a real sense of inclusion.

00:22:57:17 - 00:23:16:05
Speaker 3
We need to get to justice. Or, you know, we don't want to be in the early days. And this is where all of these debates around affirmative action come in, which get very ugly and are very timely right now. But, you know, what is it about numbers? But what you're saying, and I'd love you to reflect on it more, is that I do feel representation does matter.

00:23:16:05 - 00:23:33:18
Speaker 3
To see yourself in leadership, to see that it's possible, you know, when you talk to your students, how do you think they reflect on seeing pathways through other human beings that share their experience or look like them, or part of a shared identity? How does that affect them, do you think?

00:23:33:20 - 00:24:01:12
Speaker 1
Let me elaborate on some things that companies can do. When we think about kind of representation, how do we get representation? First and foremost, we or industries, partners need to hire more people of color, in particular blacks. That starts off first and foremost with, hiring folks who have experience. Oftentimes, no one's going to get it get hired unless they have some experience.

00:24:01:12 - 00:24:47:02
Speaker 1
How do you get experience? You can't get experience unless you get hired. That happens with, internships. And I know that, internships for students are particularly valuable so that they can gain that experience and hopefully gain, the job within, a company. But so let's think about some things in terms of what companies can do when they can offer mentorship programs, which is something that I talked about before, because mentorship and guidance can help students, go down the right path and, develop experience knowledge that particularly important to be marketable.

00:24:47:02 - 00:25:39:14
Speaker 1
These two companies can advocate for diverse candidates. And I think you and I have had conversations before such that if there are people of color who work at the company, especially blacks, it's important to not only have mentorship, but to have folks in the company who advocate for, folks of color. Oftentimes, I think. This is unfortunate, but in many cases, it's important to have as a black person to have allies who don't look like you, who can advocate for you because in many cases, their comments, their, advocacy in many ways matters more.

00:25:39:14 - 00:26:07:10
Speaker 1
It holds more credibility among white mainstream employees and managers. And so that that's very important tip advocates, who look like you and who don't look like you. Also, it's important to create a workplace that embraces diversity. I mentioned some of the things that, G and S is doing in terms of things like having affinity groups.

00:26:07:12 - 00:26:44:13
Speaker 1
Having a, Dei committee. And I think you have, Janus has, both of those, this is an important one and maybe somewhat controversial in some circles, but promotions should impart be tied to the development of diverse talent we speak a lot about. Okay. Oh, we have a committee that's doing this, or we had a workshop on this or we've we've spoken to our, black professionals in our company.

00:26:44:14 - 00:27:09:01
Speaker 1
But how are we holding each other accountable if we really embrace diversity, if it's really important, then maybe part of our is as managers, as supervisors, maybe part of our promotions or our raises should be tied again in part to how we're developing talent. How are we leading? So I think that's particularly important.

00:27:09:07 - 00:27:26:06
Speaker 3
I love just to jump on that really quickly, not to take you off track, but I think it's so important because it is that question of accountability. And that's what's been missing. Now, again, the New York City Human Rights Commission tried to create some years ago, but this question of how do you embed it in your values? But then how do you make that real?

00:27:26:06 - 00:27:44:16
Speaker 3
And what are the KPIs or the key performance indicators for each person as they go? And we do have our task force and we're actually even examining like, should we still call it a task force? Is it how do we look at an ongoing body? We we haven't formed formal affinity groups yet, but many other methods of conversation.

00:27:44:16 - 00:28:04:16
Speaker 3
But I think that question of how do we and we're in our performance review cycle right now, as I talked to you today, it's like, how do we lean into helping managers at all levels understand what it actually means to incorporate the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion as a champion, as advocate, because one of the observations that I have.

00:28:04:16 - 00:28:36:06
Speaker 3
But it's like not surprising. I mean, it's something we've talked about is that bringing talented individuals in from marginalized communities, especially from the black community, because of the unique history of the United States and the unique challenges that we face in this area. To say the least, so deep in the DNA of this country, it's one thing to bring folks in, but it's another to help them feel that they want to stay, you know, and that's that's to me, even I can't you know what?

00:28:36:06 - 00:29:05:03
Speaker 3
I can't prioritize one over the other. They're both so important because we haven't we're making progress in recruiting. I'm just talking about us as the example. I know the best that I want to speak for others, but I certainly know a lot about what's going on other companies. But how how my colleagues who are here, who identify as black in America today, whether they, you know, African American, come, you know, from that history or Caribbean or Africa, you know, wherever blackness is centered in their lives, like how do they feel good about being here?

00:29:05:05 - 00:29:23:11
Speaker 3
That, that that I think is something that I didn't know if we would get to this level of conversation in the corporate world, to tell you the truth, 30 years ago. But I feel like we're starting to have it now. I mean, are you seeing that more too, in terms of retention? And, it may not be the thing that you're engaged in all the time.

00:29:23:11 - 00:29:25:02
Speaker 3
I'm just curious of your thoughts.

00:29:25:04 - 00:30:00:00
Speaker 1
You know, in society in general. And I'll probably talk a little bit about my research, what we're seeing in society, whether you're watching the news, especially when we look at the news media, much of the popular press and even some academic literature point to a bleak picture for the future of race relations. We see so much divisiveness, out in the world, at least that's communicated to us through media.

00:30:00:02 - 00:30:42:00
Speaker 1
But in my opinion, I think the negativity, the divisiveness, the racial tension that we hear is in many ways overstate. It the reason I say it's overstated. We have a tendency to focus on negativity, at least from a media standpoint. I, encourage because I see young people who have inter racial friendships. I see, middle school kids in high school kids who are interacting with other diverse groups on a regular basis.

00:30:42:02 - 00:31:17:06
Speaker 1
When I walk across campus, I see black students and white students sitting down having lunch together, talking about, exams and homework. I see much more inter racial interaction. And I, although we it's the, Bhaskar is the black advertiser strategic communication association. There are number of, diverse students who are part of my organization, whether they're black, white, Hispanic.

00:31:17:12 - 00:31:56:12
Speaker 1
So I guess what I'm saying here is that I'm encouraged because there's a lot more focus, one from academics in many industry folks and being intentional about creating environments that are conducive for, people of color to succeed in. I'm encouraged because young people are much more progressive in their thinking, and it's much more commonplace for them to interact with one another.

00:31:56:14 - 00:32:25:01
Speaker 1
And they're much more open minded, in less close minded. They don't see in many cases. And my research kind of points to this. They know a white person doesn't necessarily among young people don't necessarily see blacks as outgroups. They often see blacks as in-group members because we we look at race and we want to see that, oh, because someone is white and someone's black, they're outgroups.

00:32:25:03 - 00:32:57:23
Speaker 1
But whites, for example, don't always use race as a way of determining similarity or commonality. They oftentimes use things like social class, cuz or occupational cues to determine if one is similar to another. So the reason that outgroup and in-group aspects are important because when you start looking at someone as being different to someone who is being who is an outgroup, you engage in biases.

00:32:58:01 - 00:33:34:18
Speaker 1
It prejudices. So there's something that I call the the ABCs of, understanding key communication processes. And this is particularly important, I think, for corporate America, the ABCs are there needs to be awareness. And what I mean by awareness is be aware of the psychological mechanisms that impact our thoughts about interactions with one another. What that means is when we come across someone, we tend to immediately make similarity judgments.

00:33:34:20 - 00:34:06:00
Speaker 1
We make similarity judgments based on how people look. You know, they're superficial. But if I'm a white person, I see another white person. That person is similar to me. I begin to think that that person is part of my in-group. When I, see someone who doesn't look like me, I kind of see them as an outgroup. And that can be manifested in biases, even though it may not be, it even though may be implicit, there can be biases that causes you to not interact with someone who is different.

00:34:06:01 - 00:34:36:12
Speaker 1
So we need to be intentional about looking and interacting, having conversations with people who look different from us outside of our first impressions, of making these kind of surface and long lasting, impressions, they're often times based on superficiality. Be so there's a awareness. There's be we need to banish bias. And what I mean by that is minimize or banish cross group bias.

00:34:36:12 - 00:35:08:13
Speaker 1
That means how do we do that? We engage in perspective, taking up someone who is different from us. We engage in intergroup contact. That means literally going in, as I said before, having communication, having conversations with someone who is different. You know, what's interesting is people generally overestimate the existence of differences between their own group and those of other groups, even rival groups.

00:35:08:16 - 00:35:35:18
Speaker 1
So we tend to overestimate, you know, differences, for example, that blacks have it whites or whites have with blacks. So we have to be intentional about banishing bias, be aware of our implicit biases, and try our hardest to, be aware of that and to respond to it in the last thing, which is, see, create connections, recognize the power to make positive and meaningful connections between groups.

00:35:35:20 - 00:35:54:02
Speaker 1
Take more time to make meaningful, connections. We need more intentional look beyond, as I kind of alluded to before, look beyond the surface characteristics of others. So a awareness be banish the bias and three create connections.

00:35:54:04 - 00:36:18:05
Speaker 3
This is an amazing way. I mean, first of all, I am so heartened by your very research and data based view of as well as qualitative are being encouraged because I do feel that way as well. And I and I think my big message for everyone is that embrace, you know, and really with an open heart, the fact that you can be making progress and also not be there yet.

00:36:18:05 - 00:36:40:11
Speaker 3
And that's okay. And that's really our industry has been as a whole, very defensive. And sometimes I hear this thing of a wall or doing everything we can. It's like, no, let's just let's hold it more loosely and let's be open hearted about we're making progress. Look at it. But it's not good enough yet. Okay, great. But I love ending with the ABCs.

00:36:40:13 - 00:36:54:01
Speaker 3
And just before we sign off today and thank you for all your time. I mean, I just I love every time we talk, but is there any particular book or reference or website that you might want our listeners to check out, just that you think would be helpful to them?

00:36:54:03 - 00:36:58:14
Speaker 1
Oh man.

00:36:58:16 - 00:37:10:13
Speaker 3
I mean, some of them I know that we've read as a group is for some of us, which was really helpful to understand, sort of the underlying currents of American society. Also. Bias by Jennifer Eberhardt I know that was.

00:37:10:13 - 00:37:36:18
Speaker 1
One you know, a thing to me. I was thinking of that same book that the first one that comes to mind, because I think we need to be aware of the implicit biases that we have and how that can manifest itself in our attitudes and behaviors. So that actually was going to be the book I, would recommend, both because it gives us real understanding of those implicit biases.

00:37:36:20 - 00:37:57:02
Speaker 1
It gives us real research, provides research evidence of how these things really happen. There it isn't just, you know, in the imagination that people have bias. He definitely has them. I have them, you have them. But it's important to be aware of those. So that would be a book. That would be the book that comes to mind.

00:37:57:04 - 00:38:15:07
Speaker 3
Yeah. So that's biased. Everybody can Google it. But doctor essay up here, Ohio State University, The Ohio State University, thank you again so much for being with us today. And, everyone can look for the follow up episode where I get to talk to three of the students from the executive board of Bhaskar. Thank you so much.

00:38:15:07 - 00:38:19:16
Speaker 3
Have a great day.

00:38:19:17 - 00:38:48:16
Speaker 2
We are gas business communications. We are a team of media strategists, storytellers and engagement experts who meet you at the intersection of business and communications. To learn more, visit Gas communications.com. You're listening to Building Brand Gravity, attracting people into your orbit. A business communications podcast. Keep connected with us by subscribing to the show in your favorite podcast player.

00:38:48:21 - 00:39:00:12
Speaker 2
If you like what you've heard, please rate the show that helps us to keep delivering the latest in industry influence. Thanks for listening. Until next time.