Building Brand Gravity Podcast

00:00:01:05 - 00:00:25:10
Speaker 3
Hello and welcome to this episode of Building Brand Gravity. I'm Steve Halsey, your host, and with me today is Rob Levick, who's a managing director of the Harris Poll. A little bit about Rob. He's a globally recognized expert on data driven business, society and health care trends. He's regularly interviewed and featured in publications like The Wall Street Journal, Financial Times, Harvard Business Review, and Forbes.

00:00:25:12 - 00:00:48:20
Speaker 3
If that wasn't enough, he's a frequent lecturer and speaker at the Columbia School of Business, the Rotterdam School of Management, Tuck School of Business, and he's the guy that, senior executives and their management teams come to when they're really looking for cutting edge research and analytics to guide their path forward. And Rob's also been based not just in North America, but Europe, in South America.

00:00:48:20 - 00:00:51:10
Speaker 3
Rob, welcome to the program.

00:00:51:12 - 00:01:07:16
Speaker 1
Thanks. Happy to be here, Steve. So, and Edwards is in South Africa, not South America. I have worked at South America as well, but, so that South Africa was, was was kind of the, was home base for, for a while, and a very, you know, exciting and really kind of eye opening in for at a time.

00:01:07:16 - 00:01:11:12
Speaker 3
So were you down in, Cape Town or were you in Johannesburg?

00:01:11:14 - 00:01:28:09
Speaker 1
We were. We were actually based out of, Pretoria. We worked for, for a most of, I think, the largest companies in South Africa, but also one of the biggest clients was the government. So we were between Pretoria and Cape Town because you have this whole kind of rotation of parliament. Quite a lot. In addition to Jo'burg.

00:01:28:09 - 00:01:36:18
Speaker 1
Jo'burg is really kind of the commercial capital. So if we if you're talking about banking or mining, or a variety of other industries, it's really kind of a central hub.

00:01:36:20 - 00:02:05:03
Speaker 3
Well, and I think with that basis of, of global, that's really got to make kind of your perspective and your council unique because you've been in the different regions, you've been in the different territories, you've really seen the dynamics, not just from a US multinational perspective, but really how the issues play in region. So so that's got to be, a really compelling voice that you can bring to the discussion.

00:02:05:05 - 00:02:24:05
Speaker 1
Yeah. And, and honestly, a really great set up for, for today's discussion as we're talking about things like ESG and sustainability, which can actually have quite different connotations, in, in different markets. And especially when you, when you even go out of, the English language, you know, the term ESG doesn't really mean much if you're if you're not, kind of an English first speaker.

00:02:24:07 - 00:02:43:11
Speaker 3
Excellent. Well, yeah, I'm really interested. Get into that. Before we really get rolling on that, maybe you can tell me a little bit about about the Harris Poll. I know you've been leading a lot of the research in the area of sustainable and and consulting, C-suite on that. But but tell me what's new with Harris?

00:02:43:13 - 00:03:04:12
Speaker 1
The question is, what's not new? It's a Harris. Steve. I'm joking, of course. Right now, I mean, we're, we we've been we've been around for for a long time over 50 years, doing really opinion leading polling, have worked, you know, the Harris poll and a lot of our leaders have worked in politics, for a for a very a number of presidents and prime ministers.

00:03:04:14 - 00:03:24:07
Speaker 1
So, you know, Tony, Tony Blair in the UK, in the US for, for JFK, for Reagan. But right now, kind of the, the core focus of, of the organization is really not politics. It's very much around kind of what's happening in society, what's happening in business. And in particular, how do we how can we enable and help?

00:03:24:09 - 00:03:51:08
Speaker 1
Companies, brands and organizations just be much more effective in, in leveraging their brand and reputation as a real kind of business asset, for moving the ball constructively forward, which is, again, it's it's never been, it's never been more important. Right? As, as you're looking at these intersections of, you know, societal issues, massively changing economic, shifts, political shifts, national security and geopolitical shifts.

00:03:51:10 - 00:04:17:04
Speaker 1
And then kind of the, you know, the the pulse behind all of our work is really how do you bring kind of technology and digital to the forefront of everything? Everything's moving just so fast these days. And if you're not, like, finding the intersection between kind of, you know, core market research with a key stakeholder to, integrating with digital data, whether it's third party or third party data, to to understand how things are moving, to really getting into those intersections with digital, you're, you're you're missing part of the picture.

00:04:17:05 - 00:04:23:08
Speaker 1
Right. Which and blind spots they are. You know, they're not kind of like a trip in many cases. They're they're more of a flop.

00:04:23:11 - 00:04:47:22
Speaker 3
Well, what what I find interesting about how you talk about where your focus is right now at, at the Harris Ball is a lot of that really fits squarely in, kind of traditional definition of sustainability, which is kind of like the three legged stool of society, things like standard of living, you know, jobs, equal opportunity economics, which was all about gross profit, cost savings, things like that.

00:04:48:00 - 00:05:09:11
Speaker 3
And then the environs, MIT when you're thinking about biodiversity, pollution prevention, those type of things. But what's interesting is, you know, you talk about where a lot of the intersections of these, you know, that's where you're seeing between, you know, the social, economic aspects are business ethics, fair trades coming in. You look at the environmental, economic kind of area.

00:05:09:11 - 00:05:35:19
Speaker 3
And that's where energy efficiency, renewable fuels, green tech fits social. Environmental is kind of where your conservation policy, environmental justice. So there's a lot packed into this concept of sustainability. But then you have ESG, you know, the environmental, social and governance, which really covers a wide range of things that may have direct or indirect impact on a business.

00:05:35:19 - 00:06:10:06
Speaker 3
You know, things like resource management, supply chain management, health and safety policies, building trust through transparency. And if that's not enough, then you have the concept of ESG investing, which is socially responsible investing approach in a companies that score well in ESG. So I guess my question for, for our listeners is where do we start or where where do communicators need to, ground their bases for a discussion about sustainability or ESG?

00:06:10:08 - 00:06:29:13
Speaker 1
Next simple question. Thanks. Do you, I think that, you know, what you're laying out is just the the whole kind of tapestry and ecosystem around ESG and sustainability. So if we're going back into to, to the past and we're looking at kind of the evolution of a lot of sustainability trends, it's very much an environmental trend, right?

00:06:29:13 - 00:06:54:08
Speaker 1
It's around kind of resource allocation. Is there an impact on on the environment? And really building that into business processes and addressing it? What you're seeing now, whether you're talking about ESG or sustainability, and I'll talk a little bit about separation between those, one of the biggest shifts that, I would hope that all listeners leave this call or this, this discussion from is or with is, is just around employees as being kind of a central piece of it.

00:06:54:10 - 00:07:16:10
Speaker 1
Right. So employees both in terms of being able to actually execute the strategy, of your business strategy with kind of sustainability as a core enabler to be able to execute and implement that. But then also in terms of employees as, as really kind of a clear depiction and showcase, of what you're doing around sustainability and, and, and ESG.

00:07:17:16 - 00:07:38:09
Speaker 3
Well, and it's it's interesting that you start with employees because at least based on my experience as a, as a communicator, you know, over the last two decades, it's been very much about outward facing communications. You know, what do we say to the NGOs? What do we talk about customers? Can we use this as an advantage of claiming a first to a market?

00:07:38:09 - 00:07:47:22
Speaker 3
But what you're talking about is something much more core, almost looking at sustainability as part of a company's DNA. Did I get that right?

00:07:47:23 - 00:08:09:17
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's it's spot on. So it's, you know, that the piece you're talking about is most certainly mission critical, but it's employees. If employees don't believe what you're saying, the NGOs or if it's not part of their like their understanding of your strategy, the the training, the resources that they have at their disposal. Then you're going to have a big mismatch.

00:08:09:19 - 00:08:21:23
Speaker 1
And then also, if you're not bringing in how you're enabling, helping, supporting, empowering employees into part of the discourse with those external audiences, that's also a big miss.

00:08:22:01 - 00:08:47:19
Speaker 3
So you you recently the Harris Poll recently, worked with University of Pittsburgh, if I understand correct. Really looking at what you described as a sustainability culture gap really kind of in, in I believe it was actually called the last mile sustainability culture gap. Can you tell me a little bit about that? I mean, it sounded like there was a pretty big disconnect between your front line workers and what managers thought about sustainability.

00:08:47:21 - 00:09:04:19
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, I, I love this. We're getting to, to kind of the, the root cause of the matter because there's I mean they're all they're all these kind of broader consumer trends impact on inflation that we can also talk about. But the the crux of the matter really does translate into this piece. And that that last mile gap is, is one of the most substantial pieces.

00:09:04:20 - 00:09:44:19
Speaker 1
So we've been working with, the University of Pittsburgh, the business school, at the, at the business school, there's, the center for Sustainable, Sustainable Business. Is is really one of the leading kind of, think tanks and organizations looking at, looking at sustainability and really kind of how do you turn it into and execute it as a strategy, where a lot of the focus of, of, of the research that that we worked on was actually came, from one of the leading professors, kind of, academic research as well as, a recent book that he wrote, which was, specifically around kind of employee focus and called Small

00:09:44:19 - 00:10:08:18
Speaker 1
actions big difference. So one of the things we looked at is, is really just understanding where are companies today. And both and there's really kind of three phases, like in terms of being able to incubate a strategy, launch a strategy, and really an entrenched strategy. But without getting too deep into all those details just yet, one of the, one of the biggest takeaways was, was absolutely in terms of kind of the last mile gap.

00:10:08:20 - 00:10:28:16
Speaker 1
So if you're working in corporate, if you're in in much more of kind of that central setting, you, you have a much better understanding of what's happening with the strategy. You feel much, much more set up, much better resourced, much better trained to actually be able to execute. And you're seeing much more of an integration into the culture.

00:10:28:18 - 00:10:45:10
Speaker 1
If you're at the, at the front lines, in many cases in, in call centers or kind of at the front touch of customers, you, you're not really seeing that that same kind of impact point. I'll say overall, we're it's still very much a journey and work in progress of the numbers are not off the charts startling.

00:10:45:14 - 00:11:16:11
Speaker 1
But there is a very substantive gap between kind of corporate and the front lines. And that's a that's a really big takeaway in terms of not just setting a strategy and kind of talking about the strategy to middle managers, but really being able to get to how do we operationalize this in a way that it builds the programs that we need to bring in the right front line staff and enables our front line staff to be upskilled, in ways that that really enable them to execute, make them feel empowered to execute, and really celebrate that execution.

00:11:16:13 - 00:11:29:13
Speaker 3
So so, Rob, you were talking about ESG and sustainability, and we're at a real kind of inflections change at corporations. And then even how we communicate. Can you can you tell me a little bit about that?

00:11:29:15 - 00:11:51:13
Speaker 1
Yeah. So when you're thinking of the inflection point that we're at, there's there's really two core components to it. One is the the evolving definition of sustainability, in the minds of kind of society at large, consumers, employees, virtually everyone, where historically it is much more about just the environment. Now you have a much bigger emphasis on communities, but in particular employees.

00:11:51:13 - 00:12:18:14
Speaker 1
Employees are very much kind of a central theme in terms of being able to showcase, impact on sustainability. And that in particular, we're looking at consumer research, some of which we just recently published with, with the Conference Board, you can see a lot of, employee factors. Around kind of wage and treatment as being kind of core components to, sustainability as, as very much kind of like a market mover and a driver of, of preference.

00:12:18:16 - 00:12:45:23
Speaker 1
Or, you know, the opposite of, if you will, in parallel to that, you have the the evolution of ESG. And in particular, when we think of ESG, it's it's the reporting aspect of it, of of it that becomes really important for companies, predominantly because as you have a variety of different, you know, financial institutions, boards, governing bodies such as the SEC starting to kind of lay out a path to reporting.

00:12:46:04 - 00:13:03:03
Speaker 1
It now becomes something that everybody has to have top of mind versus can can consider whether they should or they shouldn't. So whether you're in, you know, operations, marketing, communications or if you're the CEO or the CFO, you really need to be able to get to the heart of the matter in terms of what what kind of data do we have?

00:13:03:03 - 00:13:13:22
Speaker 1
What is it telling us? And then how do we pull that together in terms of looking at our at our business strategy and at the broader positioning and forward looking prospects of, of our organization?

00:13:14:00 - 00:13:39:10
Speaker 3
Yeah, it's kind of interesting. And as you describe, you know, kind of the employees, really that kind of cultural connection, you talk about alignment with the strategy and purpose of the corporation. Then you talk about external reporting. That puts the issue of sustainability right at the heart. What the chief communications officer does within a corporation. So how should a chief communications officer move forward?

00:13:39:10 - 00:13:47:19
Speaker 3
And is it different if they're in a B2B company than a B2C company, and in how they communicate and tell this story of sustainability?

00:13:47:21 - 00:14:14:06
Speaker 1
It's a great question. And unfortunately, there's no silver bullet answer. Steve. I think it's for for some companies, you're probably feeling ahead of the curve if you're in a B2B company, and especially one that's been, you know, very focused on things like construction and manufacturing, in many cases, you know, you're you may be ahead of the curve because companies have actually been investing in it because they can actually see substantial efficiencies built on it.

00:14:14:06 - 00:14:32:23
Speaker 1
They can actually you can actually build just a much more sustainable business by the by a focus on sustainability. As you're looking at kind of the evolution of a lot of these topics and, you know, there are some companies do have a chief sustainability officer, some don't, some have chief communications officers, some have chief corporate affairs officers.

00:14:33:01 - 00:14:55:19
Speaker 1
So as we're thinking of the CEO and a lot of these other titles in particular, there's a really big opportunity, right. And the opportunity can be taken from any one of those vantage points. But, one one of the key ones is certainly the chief communications officer. In some cases, you have individuals who have both communications and sustainability under their portfolio.

00:14:55:21 - 00:15:18:16
Speaker 1
Right? In those cases, you're not just communicating about sustainability, but you're really foundationally creating an operational organization for that. Being able to collect all the data, interpret it, make sure it's making sense, make sure that that whole process is evolving as the business is evolving, and then also telling the story about what it means and building a strategy around that.

00:15:18:18 - 00:15:49:17
Speaker 1
Right. That's going to be the role of some chief communications officers, right? And most certainly going to be, part of the role for many chief corporate affairs officers. In other instances, it's very much around how do you create a very deep partnership with sustainability and operations, if you're the chief communications officer? So you can really get to the heart of the story versus just, you know, figuring out where the story needs to go and doing some kind of rounding of the of the corners of the story.

00:15:49:19 - 00:16:11:04
Speaker 1
So I think there's a lot of plays and just depending on the kind of company you're in and how deep sustainability is already embedded. So I mean, there's certain organizations like if you're at Unilever, you know, certainly there's, you know, there's a chief sustainability officer who is extraordinarily, deeply embedded in the whole organization that's going to be somebody you partner with versus that at other organizations where this whole concept is still very nascent.

00:16:11:06 - 00:16:28:17
Speaker 1
There are still major opportunities for, for example, chief communications officers to take a much more of a leadership role that moves, beyond just kind of brand and communications and much deeper in terms of, kind of operational sustainability, responsibilities.

00:16:28:19 - 00:16:55:16
Speaker 3
So, so what has been the most surprising finding to you in all the research you've done with this, either whether it's, you know, the, the adoption rate, whether it's this, last mile gap that you talk about, you'd mentioned earlier that even the use and the thinking about ESG and non-English speaking, countries is very different, what with all of this myriad of data and analytics.

00:16:55:16 - 00:17:02:13
Speaker 3
You're looking at what what are the things that you found most interesting or surprising?

00:17:02:14 - 00:17:08:20
Speaker 1
Now I'm going to focus in on your question as kind of like, what do I think is the biggest blind spot? How about that?

00:17:08:22 - 00:17:12:10
Speaker 3
There we go. What? So so what's our biggest blind spot out there?

00:17:12:10 - 00:18:03:15
Speaker 1
Rob I think the biggest blind spot is really being able to understand both what's happening in terms of financial reporting, right. Where the financial reporting aspect of it is, there's stuff coming with 100% certainty, but it's going to be a relatively or most likely a relatively slow roll to to start. Right. You're actually, in most cases, the predominant focus areas for for, for that reporting are, are most likely to be kind of like scope one and scope two emissions and much more kind of environmentally focused, which basically what that means is it's around, you know, their direct impact of your operations and, and, you know, electricity and things like that.

00:18:03:17 - 00:18:36:14
Speaker 1
Right? Your what that precludes or doesn't include is the big impact points. Right. So the net far reaching impact, which is you're getting it to into scope three or beyond. So reporting is going to be based most likely to start on much more of a scope one or scope two. So you're actually going to see a lot of organizations, theoretically doing quite well on some of those that may not like, you're going to have energy companies that are really good at just figuring out how to do the reporting, who may actually be scoring very highly on those things.

00:18:36:16 - 00:19:01:18
Speaker 1
Right. Although you could argue that their broader kind of environmental impact is, you know, has has a lot more kind of like deficiencies or potential negative impacts and things like that. Right? Well, at the same time, when you're looking at kind of building the story, building the brand, building the strategy and executing the strategy, a lot of it is kind of net societal impact focused.

00:19:01:20 - 00:19:38:12
Speaker 1
Right? So you really need to be able to bridge both of those things and create kind of that whole continuum. Right? So getting really, really good at reporting because that's going to have a direct impact on operations. Financials, integrations, the CFO into the CEO. And then also building off of that continuum into really high impact, meaningful, initiative based storytelling that really showcases the impact your having on employees, on communities, on the future.

00:19:38:14 - 00:20:11:03
Speaker 3
Yeah. And one of the things I think has been really interesting in this discussion is really how you've been talking about the changing or evolving definition of sustainability to really be more on the the social side and relationship with employees. Yeah. I mean, I, I just think that that's, that's that's fascinating. And so I guess the question is, as we think about corporate strategy and how you move forward, how does this then impact corporate purpose and how brands need to think about their own purpose?

00:20:11:05 - 00:20:38:17
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's a fantastic question, Steve. So when you think of, I think, a reasonable model to be thinking about sustainability as well as ESG as kind of like pathways for both, reporting on measuring and creating impact around purpose. Right. So purpose is very much around kind of like the top line, you know, structure, positioning. This is where we're pointing, this is how we're going to do it.

00:20:38:19 - 00:21:02:15
Speaker 1
A lot of what we're seeing around ESG and around sustainability, to really create those pathways for being able to kind of credibly execute as your business as well, because the expectations around these things are going to be very different. If you're an energy company versus a financial services company versus a manufacturing or construction company versus a tech company, right?

00:21:02:17 - 00:21:38:11
Speaker 1
So it does create a lot of, the level of detail when you think of breaking down sustainability and ESG provides a lot of really good data flows and pathways to to build very compelling storytelling. And I think actually it's going to be a liberator for, for a lot of communicators, right? When you're when, you know, from, from my experience, some of if some of the best communicators that are most frustrated that that you know, that I know that I've worked with are when there really isn't a clear enough business strategy.

00:21:38:13 - 00:22:11:06
Speaker 1
Right, and there's not really enough kind of business direction and action to build a very compelling brand engagement initiatives versus where you have more of a clear strategy, and you have a lot of those data points that support it. And you can see that investors are understanding where this stuff is pointing. Then suddenly it opens up massive opportunities for for communications, for marketing the brand building, for thought leadership, right, where you can really add that next layer.

00:22:11:11 - 00:22:24:10
Speaker 1
That makes it a much more dynamic, compelling, credible story, right, versus just kind of, you know, tweaking language in a speech or a newsletter or a press release.

00:22:24:12 - 00:22:49:04
Speaker 3
So, so if you make meaningful change, what are the ripple effects on on the different industries. Right. So you've talked about tech or health care and you counter pose that even with, say the food industry and the supply chain there, if you make really good progress, how does that how does that impact others? How does that change the bar that they're being held to?

00:22:49:06 - 00:22:52:15
Speaker 1
Do you mean competitors or do you mean society?

00:22:52:17 - 00:23:14:16
Speaker 3
Actually both, but primarily, primarily look at competitors. You know, there's the old saying, hey, we can do well by doing good, but if you do that, does it force meaningful change with competitors or does it does it really create a situation where each competitor is going to look at their business strategy and say, how can I be most competitive?

00:23:14:16 - 00:23:18:05
Speaker 3
Not how can I be most sustainable?

00:23:18:07 - 00:23:55:04
Speaker 1
I think the two things are intertwined. So that's the it's again, a great question as you look at sustainability and. Your ability to get into the organization, both to go deep into understanding what's happening. And then also because of a lot of the evolving reporting standards, have to be able to elevate that and communicate it externally for, again, just for financial purposes, for board purposes, etc. that creates, I think it's going to create a new competitive landscape because you're going to have a lot more of this information that that's publicly available.

00:23:55:04 - 00:24:38:22
Speaker 1
So there's going to be a new lens for for competitive positioning. And it's going to you know, to a large degree, enable companies to understand, how others are operating and what's making them, you know, tick and work better or not better. Also, at the same time, it should also operate, open up really new opportunities for distinction and differentiation as you start digging into how a lot of these things work at your company, you're going to find out that there are some really new, unique, different components of, your supply chain, your key stakeholders, what what the frontline employees look and feel like there's going to be huge opportunities to to be, you

00:24:38:22 - 00:24:51:17
Speaker 1
know, really be able to create a lot more distinction based off of, you know, how your culture actually manifests itself around things like executing on sustainability, on ESG.

00:24:51:19 - 00:25:18:07
Speaker 3
Well. And what I think is interesting is, you know, there's all the positive business factors, but there's also, I'm sure you're seeing within companies kind of the inertia or resistance to change that says if we take actions that are more sustainable, one, we may pick up higher costs in the short term, but it also may make our customers by less or not by something that's been a key driver for the business.

00:25:18:07 - 00:25:24:04
Speaker 3
I mean, are you seeing that that is a real challenge that businesses are facing.

00:25:24:06 - 00:25:54:07
Speaker 1
That's a major challenge. Absolutely. So you're also getting to maybe where, you know, this conversation can start in a lot of different places. But one of the most important things to also understand right now, in the US, also in other markets, but really in the US, the hyper politicization and polarization of a lot of this. Right? Especially the kind of the term ESG and especially as you look at the last call it 6 to 8 months in the US, you've had a a huge amount of politicization around that.

00:25:54:09 - 00:26:25:10
Speaker 1
And, you know, as you have those, as you have the intersection between a company, society, politics, you very quickly get into kind of geopolitical and also broader competitiveness issues. So, and this is, you know, part of it really comes down to like, how is your organization working? Where is its supply chain? To what degree are, you know, certain markets or, or countries subsidizing, certain subsidizing certain industries.

00:26:25:12 - 00:26:57:07
Speaker 1
So there's suddenly you start getting pulled into a ton of complexity, especially as you're pulling in like, a country like China. Right? Both in terms of for for most companies, it's a substantial part of your supply chain on at least certain aspects of your business. And then on on the flip side of it is, as you're thinking of, you know, Chinese companies evolving in a lot of spaces and you're thinking like about intellectual property as you're thinking about, just overall kind of subsidies and competitiveness.

00:26:57:09 - 00:27:19:16
Speaker 1
This can have massive impacts when you're when you're thinking about, how do I get for some companies, you know, incur more cost to get this stuff kind of, you know, moving, if you will. Right. What I will say is that the big part of it, that's one of the big change agents here, is the fact that you're going to have, it's going to be now a financial requirement.

00:27:19:18 - 00:27:40:09
Speaker 1
So there's going to be an expectation from financial markets that you're going to need to be spending more on these things. And there's, you know, again, you're going to have to be very judicious about how you're positioning that aspect of it, what you're spending and how you're investing. But that's going to become part of your strategy. Right. And the financial markets are going to expect it because they know you're going to have to be reporting on it.

00:27:40:11 - 00:27:51:10
Speaker 1
So that, again, is one of the one of the big changes. That's that's enabling change. But it all those other dynamics I just mentioned are real, real things. If you're in tech, if you're in manufacturing, if you're an energy.

00:27:51:12 - 00:28:22:07
Speaker 3
So when, when you're, when you're asked by these, major companies to come in and consult on sustainability, what are they asking you to do? Is this something that is an outcrop of, discussions about reputation and brand? Is are these very specific studies that they want to do to kind of gauge where the market is, is there is there kind of a common way that that people say, hey, I really need to reach out to the Harris Poll to help me, figure out the path forward or the strategy around these.

00:28:22:11 - 00:28:24:13
Speaker 3
This topic.

00:28:24:14 - 00:28:44:22
Speaker 1
And it's a great question. I think, for, for a lot of companies, they're still very much at the inflection point of figuring out how they're going to be dealing with, with sustainability. In most cases in work that we're doing. So, for example, if we're doing work around corporate brand and reputation, it's inherently a cross stakeholder, cross-functional program, right?

00:28:45:00 - 00:29:08:10
Speaker 1
Because of that, it's sustainability is almost always one of the key stakeholders in the mix. So increasingly, one of the things we have been seeing is more sustainability leaders, especially ones who are broadening their profiles or who have broader profiles, where sustainability is coming in, where it's it's becoming a much deeper and more specific aspect to the work.

00:29:08:12 - 00:29:35:07
Speaker 1
And what I mean by that is going much deeper into, again, this differs depending on who the what, what industry you're in. It's really digging deep into a lot of the experts in, in those domains. Yeah, it's going to look the experts when you think of sustainability as it pertains to energy versus tech versus financial services are actually quite different in terms of it being more of like, for example, environmental versus social profile as examples.

00:29:35:09 - 00:29:57:10
Speaker 1
But you have to go you're going much deeper into, into those stakeholder groups. And then also going much deeper into, into the core issues for, for that organization. And that's both in terms of, again, understanding how it works at your company, how it translates from operations, but then also how it manifests itself in terms of programing, positioning, and messaging as a huge aspect of it.

00:29:57:11 - 00:30:24:21
Speaker 1
Right? I, I was like, I can't understate the level of the level of, jargon around this space is, remarkable. And, you know, again, the reason for that is, is that you have it's still, to a large degree, a very insider conversation. So a lot of that jargon makes sense to insiders. But it's a very big problem if you're trying to communicate more broadly, even with policymakers, if you don't get to simple, straightforward language, that's pretty clear about what you're doing.

00:30:25:02 - 00:30:33:00
Speaker 1
You're going to lose a lot of people. And in many cases, they're going to think you're actually obfuscating. Even if you have the right intentions and you're doing a lot of the right things.

00:30:33:02 - 00:31:05:15
Speaker 3
Well. And I could definitely see when we were talking earlier about, the employee connections and getting employees to believe if you're doing a lot of jargon, it can feel like you're not really making a meaningful impact. And I also thought it was interesting going back to when you talked about the blind spots of really that need for the financial reporting and what scope you got and really what you were just talking about now, which is how do you build a, story and a brand that really is talking about the net societal impact.

00:31:05:17 - 00:31:18:23
Speaker 3
So I guess my question, Rob, where do we go from here? What what what do corporate communicators and marketers need to leave this podcast and say, what are if there's three things I'm going to do, what are those three things?

00:31:19:01 - 00:31:46:22
Speaker 1
First and foremost, just get your head around what sustainability means at your company. And what I mean by that is understanding what the impact points are, right? And getting your head around kind of like the data that exists or the data that should exist. So if not leading the charge, getting involved in the group that is setting up for where a lot of the SEC reporting is going to go, just really getting your head deeply around what's available, what's happening and what is going to be needed.

00:31:47:00 - 00:32:15:09
Speaker 1
Otherwise, you're going to have a major blind spot as for example, if you're working in in marketing or communications. The second thing very much is going to be really around rethinking how you think about employees. So they are kind of like that two sided piece of you're not going to be able to execute your strategy unless you get buy in from the employees, and they understand what you're trying to do.

00:32:15:11 - 00:32:52:04
Speaker 1
And, and they actually have the tools, resources and training to, to do it. And at the same time making sure that they become a core part of your external kind of showcase of, of, of making progress. So employee is just a mission critical piece of it. And then the last part of it is, you know, how do you really turn it into a really kind of unique, distinctive driver of your positioning across constituencies, from investors to policymakers to customers, to your supply chain?

00:32:52:06 - 00:33:09:22
Speaker 3
Those those are really, really good tangible points that I think our listeners can put into practice. Rob, anything else that we need to think about on the topic of, of sustainability? It's a light, easy, uncomplicated thing to deal with, right?

00:33:10:00 - 00:33:36:17
Speaker 1
The again, it's as you think of whatever blind spot you have right now, your competitors and a lot of others have that blind spot as well. So your opportunity to move faster right now is, is a major one, primarily because you're going to be forced at some point by the financial markets. So your ability to get ahead of this stuff will turn into an actual business competitive advantage.

00:33:36:18 - 00:34:01:21
Speaker 1
Right. The closer you're in understanding how this works at your company, what is available, what are the things we're doing well? What are the things we're doing poorly? The more quickly it will kind of elevate your ability to be a real business, you know, consultant and and really enabling better business decision making. If you're in, for example, communications or marketing.

00:34:01:23 - 00:34:17:16
Speaker 1
So again, just a really big opportunity. And it's, it's a really kind of a once in a generation inflection point. Right? This is the first time ever you're going to have real kind of like financial reporting. And it's again, it's it's going to be scope one. Scope two. It's not going to be crazy, but it's coming. And you have to be prepared.

00:34:17:16 - 00:34:31:02
Speaker 1
And there's a massive opportunity to turn it into much more of a competitive business asset and which by by that can really become a really key distinctive positioning point for, for your brand and reputation.

00:34:31:04 - 00:34:54:23
Speaker 3
So as I take, kind of the summary of our conversation, you know, key things that really stick out to me are being at an inflection point, being aware of your blind spots and really thinking about sustainability as a as a business strategy. Rob, thank you so much for joining us on, on building brand gravity, everybody. We had Rob Yak Yelich, the managing director of the Harris Poll.

00:34:55:01 - 00:35:05:00
Speaker 3
You can find him by looking up Harris poll on the internet. He's also on LinkedIn as Rob K. Rob, thanks again for sharing your insights with us today.

00:35:05:01 - 00:35:10:03
Speaker 1
Thanks for having me. Steve is a pleasure.

00:35:10:05 - 00:35:39:04
Speaker 2
We are gas business communications. We are a team of media strategists, storytellers and engagement experts who meet you at the intersection of business and communications. To learn more, visit g s communications.com. You're listening to Building Brand Gravity, attracting people into your orbit. AG Business Communications podcast. Keep connected with us by subscribing to the show in your favorite podcast player.

00:35:39:09 - 00:35:50:18
Speaker 2
If you like what you've heard, please rate the show that helps us to keep delivering the latest in industry influence. Thanks for listening. Until next time.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:01
Speaker 1
There are three typical types of crisis those with a victim, those that are accident, and those that are preventable. Learn about these and how to manage your trust. With doctor Lashonda Eddie. In the next episode of Building Brand Gravity.

00:00:22:03 - 00:00:53:07
Speaker 2
You are listening to building brand Gravity, attracting people into your orbit. A Gas Business communications podcast. This is a show for communication pros across industries looking to gain an inside view into industry influence. You're about to hear a conversation with leading industry professionals talking about the importance of building business impact through sound brand strategy. Let's get into the show.

00:00:53:09 - 00:01:16:14
Speaker 1
Hello and welcome to this next episode. I'm Steve Halsey, one of your hosts, and with me today is Doctor Lashonda Eddie. She has her PhD, a PR, she's an assistant professor of public relations at Penn State, a senior research fellow with Arthur Paige Center, and much, much more. Doctor Eddie, welcome and thank you for joining us here today.

00:01:16:16 - 00:01:20:10
Speaker 3
Thank you, Steve, for having me. I'm looking forward to this conversation.

00:01:20:11 - 00:01:44:12
Speaker 1
I am too, and, you know, you're really in a pretty unique spot as we think about our profession. A very noted crisis history expert. You really focus on how you build a bridge between theory and practice. You've been really widely published, a frequent speaker on the topic and. Yeah, I guess let's let's start there. How did you end up being a crisis history expert?

00:01:44:12 - 00:01:49:15
Speaker 1
And what is it that really makes this such a passionate area for you?

00:01:49:17 - 00:02:10:03
Speaker 3
Well, I think I'll back up to why I'm in academe at all first, and I'll try to make it fast. But thinking back to my undergraduate days at the University of Tennessee, go Vols as a student, I was very passionate about the public relations, excited to get out into the industry. But I also knew that one day I wanted to be a professor.

00:02:10:08 - 00:02:38:10
Speaker 3
Back then, I thought that I would work my way up the corporate ladder, become a CC0 or CMO, that my kids would be grounding out of the house. And then I would have, you know, be a professor as a second career as well as, you know, things don't always go as planned. And so, I didn't quite make it to that position, but what I when I was able to do was work in the industry for a number of years for some really great companies, get some wonderful experience.

00:02:38:15 - 00:03:01:12
Speaker 3
And then once I got my masters and had to write a thesis, I even plan to go back into the industry then. But once I wrote the thesis, I said, oh my goodness, I don't think I could write a dissertation later. I have to do it now. And so fortunately, I was able to then get my doctorate, and once I did that, I was like, okay, so maybe there's a way for me to still be in the industry, but to stay in academe as well.

00:03:01:12 - 00:03:30:21
Speaker 3
And so I'm really fortunate that I was able to find the kind of the sweet spot for me, which, as you were saying, is kind of this position where I really try to do all I can to bridge the gap not only between theory and practice, but also between academe and the industry, because I think that is more, broadly kind of what the whole issue is, because oftentimes I think professionals think, you know, there's the old adage it says, oh, that works in theory, but not in practice.

00:03:30:23 - 00:03:58:20
Speaker 3
And sometimes that might be true. But being on the academic side and knowing what the theories are and some of the work that's being done, more often than not, a lot of the theory and the scholarly work can actually help professionals and chief communicators do their job better. But I also think that us as academics don't do a great job, usually, of really getting our research insights into digestible bites and sharing it with the people who can actually use it.

00:03:59:02 - 00:04:26:17
Speaker 3
You know, just because it ends up in one of the top scholarly journals doesn't mean that the people who can use the information other than researchers are going to get it there. And so for me, that's really what I try to do with all of my research. Even in the classroom, I try to help my students as to future public relations professionals of tomorrow, I try to help them see how the theories that I'm sharing with them, how the research that I'm doing directly relates to also what we're talking about.

00:04:26:19 - 00:04:52:04
Speaker 3
That's happening day to day in the news, you know, the crises that we were seeing so that hopefully when they get out of the Penn State walls, that they are also start to incorporate some of that insight that can even just inform their strategy even more. And for the crisis history piece, the way that I got interested in crisis history is that, there's, one of the prevailing crises.

00:04:52:04 - 00:05:22:02
Speaker 3
Communication theory just basically says that when, when a crisis happens, it's one of three different kinds. There's victim, which would be like an act of terrorism. There's accident. That would be kind of like a technical malfunction. And then there's preventable, which are like intentional misdeeds by employees or just, you know, sheer negligence. And so that theory says that people attribute more or less responsibility to the organization that's in crisis, based on what kind of crisis has happened.

00:05:22:04 - 00:05:44:23
Speaker 3
And then it also says that there are certain intensifiers that can actually move everything up higher. And so one of those is performance history, which is basically the rapport that organizations have with publics before a crisis happens or is perceived to have with them. And the second part is crisis history, which in a theoretical sense means an organization's previous crises.

00:05:44:23 - 00:06:12:06
Speaker 3
But, I know that when other people outside of crisis history, academic crisis history, they think about literal crisis history as well. So that's how my, research also bridges into looking at historical crises like the Great Depression, the flu of 1918, the, polio epidemic, HIV Aids epidemics as well, to see how we can actually have insight even from all those years ago.

00:06:12:06 - 00:06:34:20
Speaker 3
And that helps us today because I think oftentimes people think that, you know, if it happened before the advent of the internet or social media, that there's no use to us. Well, that's not exactly true. Like, yes, the challenges and maybe the communication landscape might be different, but in more ways than not, I think there's really nothing new under the sun.

00:06:34:22 - 00:06:38:22
Speaker 3
And so I try my best to show people that.

00:06:39:00 - 00:07:12:13
Speaker 1
Yeah, well, and I think, you know, one of the things that's probably changed more is I would say a couple of things. One is the immediacy in which the information gets out, and then secondly, the ability to get it out so broad. And it was interesting as you were really talking about how you got to where you were and that that professional experience, I think is really key for doing that bridge so that as crisis professionals, you know, we understand the importance of strategy, we understand the historical context.

00:07:12:15 - 00:07:43:21
Speaker 1
And at least in my experience of, you know, close to 30 years in this industry, you know, I found that in a lot of times, those sudden breaking crises are a lot easier to manage than the preventable ones that that built up over time. And, and, you know, you presented some really, fascinating research. I believe it was in, in Denmark recently, and it's called The Trust Factor rethinking multinational Companies and health organizations Impact on public health and safety crises.

00:07:43:23 - 00:08:02:10
Speaker 1
And I want to get again to the public health and safety part in a little bit. But what I thought was really interesting about that was this concept, that you and the team are working on of, of trust erosion. Can you give a little bit of background as to what is trust erosion, and how does that help?

00:08:02:12 - 00:08:07:10
Speaker 1
Practitioners try and understand and conceptualize how to deal with crises.

00:08:07:12 - 00:08:41:08
Speaker 3
Right? So firstly, I'm sure many I'm sure you and many others are familiar with Edelman's Trust Barometer. I think they've been doing that annual, survey, of people across the world for, I think, at least 20 years now. Don't quote me on that. But for a while now they've been doing this annual survey. And so for the past two years, that trust barometer actually indicated that there was declining trust in government and health organizations, but an increased trust and business, which was surprising, I think, to a lot of people.

00:08:41:10 - 00:09:03:12
Speaker 3
Maybe not Edelman, but I feel like everybody else was thinking, oh my goodness, what big business is who people trust the most. And so the team of researchers that you mentioned and I, thought, oh my gosh, we gotta look at this closer, because who would have thought ever that people would look to business as the most trusted social institution?

00:09:03:14 - 00:09:33:10
Speaker 3
And when you put that in this whole kind of landscape of Covid, that still continues to go on now. But, other like social issues that have been going on across the world, it's a really interesting time for that to be happening. Because if you think about the Covid example, if government and health organizations are not trusted, but businesses are, then the people, the experts that have the information that folks actually need, they don't have the trust.

00:09:33:10 - 00:10:08:13
Speaker 3
And those those people. And so then on the flip side of that, these multinational companies that do have this newfound trust, they also then have to decide, you know, are we going to continue just to be focused on the bottom line, which would be completely acceptable as well, even though we know we're the most trusted social institution now or are we going to take on this newfound role and actually see what new, you know, what new role we need to play in helping not just Covid, but other social issues because people trust us the most now.

00:10:08:15 - 00:10:57:10
Speaker 3
And so our team really believe that this whole kind of, juxtaposition of that created this ethical dilemma also for organizations that that have to make that decision because oftentimes not only are they not equipped to really do that, they aren't the experts in it. And so what we really believe ultimately, is that this whole trust erosion and this shift from those organizations and institutions that have the information that people need, we think that it's going to require some unconventional partnerships between multinational organizations, between individuals and governments and health organizations, because at the end of the day, hopefully we all want to work towards what's best for the overall good of mankind, of the whole

00:10:57:10 - 00:11:38:23
Speaker 3
world. But you know who who's supposed to do that? And so, I would say, and maybe I'm a bit naive in this belief, but I think that public relations professionals and chief communication officers are in a really unique position to really be able to move this forward, because our whole job is to be aware, really all the things in the company and where a lot of other functional areas work in silos and don't really talk to each other unless they have to communicate, is have to be in the know about all of that internally, but also are responders in are the ones that are in the communities that are also keeping the ear

00:11:38:23 - 00:11:54:02
Speaker 3
to the ground to see what's going on. And so I think that we're in a very unique position where we can hopefully help our organizations move towards this, you know, shared understanding and shared goal of helping the overall public good.

00:11:54:04 - 00:12:20:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. And trust is a really interesting thing in that, you know, you want to work so hard to earn it. And once you earn that mantle of trust, you have to hold that mantle of trust. And as you said, really with the impact of Covid, when you look at the impact of changing societal forces and issues, when you look at the impact of very deliberate misinformation, it can be a very tricky spot to be.

00:12:20:04 - 00:12:45:13
Speaker 1
And one of the things I thought was interesting, based on on the work that the team is doing, is really this concept of a trust erosion management system to me, you know, really was a good example of what we talked about earlier of putting together kind of that that academic thought and view and the rigor in the study with practical systems or ways of working.

00:12:45:13 - 00:12:55:20
Speaker 1
Can you talk a little bit about what is trust erosion and what is the management system that that your team is proposing for communications professionals?

00:12:55:22 - 00:13:22:01
Speaker 3
Absolutely. So going off of this whole idea that trust is erosion eroding for certain industries, but has been, is growing and others we are proposing a framework. And basically what we believe is that trust erosion mirrors kind of the soil erosion process, where once it starts, there are certain things that you can do to mitigate it, but you can't stop it entirely.

00:13:22:01 - 00:14:00:05
Speaker 3
And so depending on how fast that erosion is happening, there are different strategies and different approaches to make it slow down that you can use. But if it's happening more quickly, then of course there are other means to stop it. And so when it comes to trusting erosion, we believe that there are moderate weather factors that kind of contribute to like the gradual erosion of trust and those kind of things that be like the misinformation that you mentioned, Steve, or disinformation, but also, historical crises, and those footprints from years before, that can kind of help to slowly erode trust.

00:14:00:10 - 00:14:35:09
Speaker 3
And then also the legitimate legitimacy of topics and of issues that might slowly be growing. Those things are what we would refer to as moderate weather factors that can slowly, erode trust. But then we also have what we call extreme weather factors. And those are things like the increased polarization of our society and the, increased politicization that really, kind of makes people, you know, emboldened or enraged and that can really make this whole erosion of trust happen much faster.

00:14:35:11 - 00:14:59:08
Speaker 3
We also believe that, volatile social climates and, social justice violations, political instability, all of those types of things are extreme weather factors that can make trust erosion happen much faster. And then we also have other types of crises, like there's an idea of like sticky crises where, you know, it might not necessarily be a crisis.

00:14:59:08 - 00:15:22:08
Speaker 3
It only affects one organization on one industry, but has ripple effects. And the same goes for like spillover crises where the origin is in one place. But for whatever reason, it expands beyond and has a really great impact. And so all of those things are also gravitational pulls that are pulling this trust, away from certain organizations and industries.

00:15:22:12 - 00:15:54:06
Speaker 3
But it's going elsewhere to those that are actually gaining trust. And so for that, when we think about this whole idea of those where the factors, we also believe that the trust erosion process is cyclical. So even though today governments and health organizations are the ones that are suffering from trust erosion, that then those like multinational companies and business, they're actually in a trust maintenance phase where their trust isn't eroding.

00:15:54:08 - 00:16:29:06
Speaker 3
But we really believe that no matter where you are in that process, you have to be aware of your position at that time, because there are different things that you would need to do as far as strategy is concerned, to try to take advantage. If you're in the trust maintenance phase or if you're in the trust erosion, phase that you would need to do to help rely on, you know, industry or community partners and other, external groups that might be able to help you get the information still that you need and hopefully regain the trust that is being lost.

00:16:29:09 - 00:16:57:06
Speaker 1
Yeah, I, I love the analogy of using, weather erosion and whether it's, you know, something that builds over time or whether it's like a hurricane or a flood that really just comes in, very quickly, I think that's a really apt way to, to help. People visualize it. The other thing I think is interesting when when I think about the flow of the trust erosion system, it's got multiple, multiple parts.

00:16:57:06 - 00:17:26:11
Speaker 1
You know, you talked about either trust maintenance or trust erosion, but it's this idea that when a crisis happens or when you're in that situation, the cycle goes through phases of mitigation, redirection, restoration, prevention, preservation and conservation. What I think is really interesting about that cyclical process is a lot of times when people come into crises, they think, well, we're going to return back to normal or we're going to return back to where we are.

00:17:26:13 - 00:17:47:10
Speaker 1
What I think is really interesting about that cycle is you're you're moving to a new place as you manage, as you navigate to the, to the crisis, or at least at least that's my take. When you're moving from a mitigation to redirection, it means that however you react to the crisis, you are moving the organization to a new place.

00:17:47:10 - 00:17:54:06
Speaker 1
And then I guess I would postulate you're moving your trust to a new place. Is that an accurate way to think about it?

00:17:54:08 - 00:18:23:02
Speaker 3
Yes, absolutely. And hopefully I know for organizations that that can happen faster. You know, because nobody wants to be, down on the low end where they are losing trust. But yes, exactly. That's exactly what it is. And so I think it also can be optimistic to see that is cyclical as well, because just because you might not have trust right now as an organization or an industry, our hope was not lost.

00:18:23:02 - 00:18:52:14
Speaker 3
And so, what we're offering in those stages that you mentioned, Steve, is also suggestions for how you strategize depending on where you are in this whole cyclical phase of trust erosion. And so I think that that really, is key is identifying where you are quickly, but then developing a, strategic mindset to figure out how you can move your organization out of that particular place if it is a part of trust erosion.

00:18:52:17 - 00:19:01:06
Speaker 3
But if you are in the maintenance phase, but also thinking about how can we continue to maintain what we have and to conserve it as well?

00:19:01:08 - 00:19:30:06
Speaker 1
Yeah. And one of the things I think, I think is really interesting about, you know, as you think about the theory that you're working on with trust erosion and that management system, really the concept that you're doing of using social media to study trust for more of an academic, setting. And what I'm really intrigued at is, you know, the studies looking at social media because it's major channel of health information dissemination.

00:19:30:08 - 00:19:57:04
Speaker 1
It's a major channel of health misinformation. You know, quite honestly, you can capture some emotive exchanges. There's a bit of an echo chamber, effect, but maybe you can talk a little bit about why you chose social media, how you're using that to really kind of gauge and track trust. And then I guess the second part of that is based on the success of really determining that.

00:19:57:10 - 00:20:10:20
Speaker 1
What are the lessons to corporate communicators or to CMOs as to how they need to be instructing their teams to think about these social media indicators, to help them manage trust?

00:20:10:22 - 00:20:40:16
Speaker 3
Awesome. So for the social media part of this study, we actually are looking at official tweets from W.H.O., the World Health Organization, and then also from the centers for Disease Control and Prevention. And the reason that we focused on on them for this particular part of the study is because they were issued and continued to put a lot of health information out as the authorities, or the respective authorities as far as health information goes.

00:20:40:18 - 00:21:08:10
Speaker 3
And so we know, even the CDC, you know, admitted earlier, or a few months ago that they had a pretty big failure when it came to communicate and regarding Covid. But we also know that this whole idea of declining trust in government and health organizations, we need to figure out, you know, other indications of what we might be able to do from that perspective with those organizations to improve that.

00:21:08:10 - 00:21:43:04
Speaker 3
And so but this part of the study, we're looking at the sentiment, in the day, immediately following some key, announcements from both the CDC and the W.H.O. to see how people responded. And we're really fortunate to have somebody on our team from A-star in Singapore. And they have, this machine learning that they've created called Crystal field, where they can look at sentiment and they can even look at certain discrete emotions that are, that are being articulated through people's comments to those official tweets.

00:21:43:04 - 00:22:13:20
Speaker 3
And so we're in the process of, analyzing that data, too, because we also think that perhaps just like this trustee roles and encyclical, that depending on what point we were in the pandemic, that's what we're looking at for that particular analysis, that it kind of ebbs and flows. And so, people's, you know, anger or sadness or fear might have been at certain levels at the beginning of the pandemic and maybe tapered off and then maybe increased later.

00:22:13:20 - 00:22:38:18
Speaker 3
And so we're even hoping that we might be able to look at things chronologically, to see where there might have been dramatic changes in people's sentiment, because that also can be connected to behavioral outcomes. I mean, not this particular analysis, but it at least can give us insight in say, you know, people at the beginning were, you know, in a heightened sense of fear because of the unknown.

00:22:38:18 - 00:23:00:00
Speaker 3
And we don't really like uncertainty and unknown things. And so that might have been, our prime opportunity to get information to them. But once they see that the guidelines are ever changing, it seems daily. And then there's been this big announcement, you know, two and a half years later that, oh, we might not have done a great job.

00:23:00:02 - 00:23:26:11
Speaker 3
Then let's look and see what the sentiment was regarding that as well. And so even though this particular study is focused on the health organization, I still think that there will be lessons learned for, corporations, because just because the health organizations are the focus of this study, it will be a corporation and later and it might be in a different context, but I think a lot of the insight will translate there as well.

00:23:26:13 - 00:23:47:16
Speaker 1
So when you when you think about how that that insight translates, I mean, obviously a global pandemic is a really big thing that affects everybody in in a broad shape. And a lot of times with crises depending upon the industry and the company, it can have a very widespread impact. It can be very localized in terms of the nature.

00:23:47:18 - 00:24:09:19
Speaker 1
So I guess one of the questions, that I have just going back to you, you mentioned earlier, like the typical crises are victim accident, preventable, where would social media as a gauge, either as a crisis management tool or as an ES as assessment of trust? You think it would be equally applicable in all types of crises, or is it more?

00:24:09:21 - 00:24:16:00
Speaker 1
Does it lend itself a little bit more to something that's got a little bit of a longer tail to it?

00:24:16:02 - 00:24:48:11
Speaker 3
I think it really depends more on the organization or the industry that's experiencing the crisis, because depending on where the stakeholders or target audience, whatever time you want to use, I know some people don't want to use stakeholders anymore, but whoever you're trying to reach, wherever they are, I think is really firstly, the thing to consider because if your target audience, if your main demographics are not on social media, then no, it's not the best place to look to see how to handle it.

00:24:48:11 - 00:25:10:10
Speaker 3
But for more far reaching, crises like the pandemic or we, we could think about even back to 2008 with the, the, the great Recession, you know, if your audience is out there and if the impacts are far reaching, then I do think social media is an easy tool to look at, but I don't think it should be the only thing.

00:25:10:15 - 00:25:31:14
Speaker 3
So, for example, in the study that I just talked about with social media, in addition to us doing that analysis, we're also completing interviews with CCL from all over the world. Right now to really delve into this whole idea of trust erosion, to make sure that we get insight from the boots on the ground to hear that, yes, this is how it happens.

00:25:31:19 - 00:26:00:02
Speaker 3
And maybe, you know, ideally this could happen, but here are the reasons that we think it might be a challenge. And so I think in whatever the crisis is, whether it's a big, spillover crisis like the pandemic is, or if it's more, more unique or not more unique, but if a smaller scale but maybe impact a whole industry versus the whole world, I still think those are really important considerations.

00:26:00:02 - 00:26:25:08
Speaker 3
So we can't put all our eggs in the social media basket, but we definitely should use it when we can. And from a researcher perspective, fortunately, I don't know how long this will last, but the Twitter API is fairly open. And so it really lends itself to research like that versus some of the other social media platforms that we don't have the same access to.

00:26:25:10 - 00:26:40:08
Speaker 3
Who knows if that will continue with the recent, leadership change at Twitter. But, it gives a really good opportunity to at least get some insight and some, direction in how we might go with even other studies.

00:26:40:10 - 00:27:01:15
Speaker 1
Well, well, I hope that that API stays open and that the users stay there to allow that to be a good tool for study, both from an academic standpoint and from corporations looking to manage, trust and their reputation and, and issues. And, you know, since we mentioned Twitter, I don't want to put you too much on the spot.

00:27:01:15 - 00:27:21:19
Speaker 1
But to me, they they strike me as a really good example of a multinational company that's dealing with some serious trust erosion. So based on your kind of system, what, what what advice do you have or where are they in the cycle? Has the bottom fallen out or are we are we still going to?

00:27:21:20 - 00:27:46:18
Speaker 3
To be honest, and I don't even know if I should say this, but as soon as Elon Musk became a part of the conversation, for me, the trust was already leaving because we know that and I don't know, I haven't done my research recently, but we know that he basically cut his public relations department. He eliminated it. And so I don't know if that was maybe 2 or 3 years ago, but fairly recently.

00:27:46:23 - 00:28:08:03
Speaker 3
And when I saw that happen, with him, when I saw him do that, I have flashbacks to when I was an undergraduate student, and when I was learning how we had to make sure we could demonstrate that we were a value added because we could be on the chopping block at any moment. And I really thought that we had grown from that as an industry, as a field.

00:28:08:08 - 00:28:35:14
Speaker 3
But when he did that, I was thinking, you know, oh boy, if he continues to have success, then I don't want other organizations to follow suit. So whenever I saw his name after that, he already had lost credibility with me anyways because I know how valuable, strategic communication, public relations, all of that is. And so for him to basically say we don't need it, I really question that.

00:28:35:14 - 00:29:12:17
Speaker 3
So now with him, being in control of Twitter, I just, I really don't know. An early indication is that it's not looking great. And so I think as an industry, we have to have conversations about what that really means from not only, or I will say primarily, I think the ethical perspective because like you mentioned, you know, misinformation and disinformation that now is going to be more readily available, and people being able to purchase, you know, the blue check and that kind of thing.

00:29:12:19 - 00:29:45:11
Speaker 3
I think all of those things are, huge red flags of where it might be going. Of course, I don't have a crystal ball, so I can't predict it. But I do think that as communicators, we already should be even before these things. Actually, before the transition actually happened. As soon as we saw that this was a possibility in this, this, deal was on the books and in the works, hopefully we were at least having a conversation amongst ourselves about what that might mean for us, as a profession.

00:29:45:11 - 00:29:50:11
Speaker 3
And if not, shame on us. We need to get on it right now.

00:29:50:13 - 00:30:13:10
Speaker 1
Yeah, I definitely think this is an area where there's going to be a lot of a lot of discussion and it's, you know, and and, you know, it's going to be about, you know, big concepts, but also some of the nuances of, you know, how can you have an open public square where voices can be heard, which is a very different from somebody walking into a crowded theater and screaming fire.

00:30:13:10 - 00:30:35:14
Speaker 1
I mean, they're they're they're very different things. So like you said, I think as an industry, this is going to be a very interesting ethical decision. And also just in counseling clients, whether, you know, to continue to support the platform to use the advertising, this is certainly going to be, something that's going to kind of evolve over time.

00:30:35:16 - 00:30:52:00
Speaker 1
So what about somebody who's doing it right? Are there are there good examples that you've seen or best practices that you would really like to point our listeners to to say, hey, if you want to understand how somebody has done it right, this is a good example.

00:30:52:02 - 00:30:58:09
Speaker 3
Absolutely. So I always like to start with Ben and Jerry's, because I think in this whole kind of social class.

00:30:58:09 - 00:31:10:18
Speaker 1
Oh, I'm sorry, I got to interrupt you. My absolute favorite American dream. Without a doubt. My favorite Ben and Jerry's flavor. Vanilla caramel crunch, little swirl. Oh, it's good stuff.

00:31:10:18 - 00:31:22:12
Speaker 3
I have to take that one now. I wasn't familiar with it, but it sounds like it would be my favorite team, so I'm going to have to look for it next time I go shopping. Yeah. And Jerry's, you can send me my check.

00:31:22:14 - 00:31:23:11
Speaker 1
Yeah, they.

00:31:23:13 - 00:31:24:18
Speaker 3
Endorsement of you?

00:31:24:18 - 00:31:43:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. I think it was originally created, for Stephen Colbert when he was doing, the, the parody show, but sorry, American Dream, my all time favorite, Ben Jerry's. So I'm. I'm sorry, doctor Eddie, you said that they are an example of a company that's doing it right. Other than delicious ice cream, how are they getting their comps?

00:31:43:23 - 00:31:44:18
Speaker 1
Right?

00:31:44:20 - 00:32:11:19
Speaker 3
I think so, because, you know, people think that this whole idea of like social justice, social advocacy, CSR is fairly new. But Ben and Jerry's was founded and has always been in the business of helping make the world a better place. And so I, I can't remember exactly what their home mission is, but I know it has something to do with, basically making the world better through ice cream.

00:32:11:19 - 00:32:41:22
Speaker 3
And I know that that's literal. But also, you know, figuratively speaking, they do that. And so I think that they are the exemplar when it comes to companies who are sure and solid in what their purpose is. And then they actually live and act by it. Because I think in our current climate, a lot of organizations, you know, end up being performative in a lot of their initiatives and what they do, and I think is because they forget to first rely on what their purpose is.

00:32:42:00 - 00:33:07:01
Speaker 3
And and so I think that that Ben and Jerry's has been doing a great for a long time. And another company that I think more recently, I would say, you know, in the past decade or so that has really been making great strides. And that is target. And, you know, they did have, I think maybe back in 2017, around that time, a slight mishap, I would say, where they were talking about, you know, the bathroom bills and that kind of thing.

00:33:07:01 - 00:33:45:17
Speaker 3
It and I, you know, I wonder why would they insert themselves into this conversation if they even if they've already had that policy in their dressing rooms for, for years prior, why would they try to insert themselves in that conversation now? And I have no internal perspective at all. But, I'm thinking that perhaps they really had some really great intentions and maybe just didn't have the right people around the table at that time to say, hey, let's take a step back to see if really we should be inserting ourselves into this conversation versus, you know, possibly being prepared to respond about our policy.

00:33:45:19 - 00:34:15:19
Speaker 3
If we are asked. And so that I would say was not the greatest moment for them. But since then, when it comes to like, examples of making sure that their initiatives are not falling flat because they're, they're, not being performative, I think they're really great with, how authentic and how strategic they've been with incorporating, diverse perspectives and making sure that they actually have a seat at their table, even as a consumer, I think is really clear.

00:34:16:00 - 00:34:38:04
Speaker 3
Anytime I walk into a target store, whatever observance is going on right now, I can tell that, it's, you know, they've been strategic. And have they do that? There have been some other examples. I won't mention the companies where they slap a label on it and think that because it says Juneteenth, that people are going to be happy and we're going to hold hands and saying, come back.

00:34:38:05 - 00:35:03:22
Speaker 3
Yeah. And it really it can't work that way. And I think more than one company has seen that. But target really puts in the time and the effort and even for the different observances that they have, you know, that they sell things for, they show how they actually are investing. They, they talk about the process involved in selecting what they are carrying for those different observances.

00:35:03:22 - 00:35:41:06
Speaker 3
And so I really think that intentional effort to show that not only are we talking the talk, we're also walking the walk so that what we do is not performative. I think that's game changing, and I think that more companies need to do that. But at the end of the day, it has to be about organizational purpose. And so anything that a company has, whether it's related to, you know, proactive crisis management, responding to prices, but also deciding how and if they might respond to the different social justice issues that might come up.

00:35:41:08 - 00:36:13:22
Speaker 3
Purpose has to be the guiding light, has to be the compass for how they decide if and when they're going to talk about it and what that looks like. And lastly, I will say southwest is a really great example internally of that as well, because when it comes to these social justice issues, that can just bubble up sometimes out of nowhere, when you're a big company like southwest, you know, moving that big ship and being able to respond timely can be really difficult because there's so much red tape.

00:36:14:00 - 00:36:51:21
Speaker 3
And so I have a lot of respect and admiration for them, because once they realized that this was potentially going to be an issue, that was going to continue to come up, they really spent the time between crises of between these social justice issues to develop a system internally and to get it up the chain to make sure that we have, a very fluid and live way where we can answer certain questions and make sure that if we are going to respond to something and, and if we decide to respond to it, that ultimately is still supporting what our overall purpose and kind of what their strategic pillars are.

00:36:51:21 - 00:37:21:22
Speaker 3
And so I think that was brilliant on their behalf, on their part, because when it comes, you don't have time often to work and that everything up the ladder, because that could take days or weeks. And, and we know because of social media and because of change and expectations of stakeholders, we don't have that kind of time always in silence, even if we are behind the scenes doing the work to get a response or to make a statement.

00:37:21:23 - 00:37:45:20
Speaker 3
Time is of the essence. And so I think more companies need to look for ways to have processes like that in place so that they can equip their chief communication officers and their chief communicators and be able to respond timely, but also to make sure that is more than just, you know, that performative saying the right thing when we know we can't actually back it up.

00:37:45:22 - 00:38:11:21
Speaker 1
Yeah, I, I couldn't agree more that it comes down to really having clarity of purpose and being true to that, because that's really when you get those key points that you talked about, the authenticity, you know, having the right counselors in place to give the strategic advice and to be very intentional as you mentioned, when you want to insert yourself in the conversation or determine when you want to pull back and look at when you're asked.

00:38:11:22 - 00:38:44:18
Speaker 1
And then through it all, understanding the importance of really needing to communicate with employees because they are they are your company. They are your brand. They're at the center of it. Well, this has been absolutely, fascinating discussion. And I could I could spend the entire day, talking through these. But but I guess as we get ready to close here, you know, thinking about all the things we discussed today, thinking about all the conversations you're having with global CEOs, what what advice do you have for senior communicators?

00:38:45:00 - 00:39:05:23
Speaker 1
What is it that they need to think about? Top three lessons about trust or crisis management that that they should really get out of? Get out of sticky tab. Write down these are the three things that, that that Professor Eddie says I really need to think about to be better at counseling and doing my job well.

00:39:05:23 - 00:39:35:07
Speaker 3
Firstly, I would say regarding trust erosion or trust maintenance, it would be to first identify where you are and use whatever tools you have, available to you to determine that, you know, larger companies I'm sure are monitoring that on a regular basis. But I know everyone doesn't have that, availability. But listening to stakeholders and doing research, as much as you can to find out where you actually stand.

00:39:35:09 - 00:39:53:19
Speaker 3
So that then you can move forward and try to, look for ways externally to create partnerships. If you see that you are not very trusted, but then also look for ways to maintain it. If if trust is, not a problem for you right now. So that would be the first thing. The second thing would be purpose.

00:39:53:19 - 00:40:20:19
Speaker 3
Like I was just talking about. I think that it seems so obvious that organizations should be using their purpose, you know, as a guiding light. But but I think that sometimes common sense is not common. And things that we think are obvious or not. And so I would just say really, across the board making sure that everything that's happening as an organization is rooted and grounded in the overall organizational purpose is essential.

00:40:20:22 - 00:40:50:10
Speaker 3
But that goes down to, you know, from an internal culture perspective. So your employees not only need to know what your mission and purpose is, they need to see it demonstrated. Like if the organization doesn't demonstrate and doesn't have a culture that is in alignment with what it espouses to have as a as a purpose and a mission, then that's a big problem because employees are your number one asset, because without your employees, nothing happens.

00:40:50:12 - 00:41:27:07
Speaker 3
And then if you do determine that there's this kind of dis alignment between those things, you have to do all you can to improve that culture, because if that doesn't happen, then I think it is definitely, a course towards a bigger crisis when when the culture is not there to back up what's being said. And so then lastly, what I would say is in this day I talk a lot, here at the end about this whole idea of like social justice and companies having to be a part of those conversations that, you know, ten, 20 years ago, they wouldn't have touched with a ten foot pole.

00:41:27:13 - 00:41:52:05
Speaker 3
Well, that that time has changed now. And so I really think Steve, communicators, if they aren't on that boat, they need to start to talk to other parts of the C-suite to let them know. It's not a matter of if we'll ever have to deal with these things and speak about them. It's a matter of when. And so in order for us to handle it well, we need to proactively be looking at this.

00:41:52:07 - 00:42:15:03
Speaker 3
And I know that back to the whole culture, conversation, that depending on the culture that may or may not be, easy, you know, that might be a really heavy lift and a tall order for a chief communicator to be able to say that. But at the end of the day, there's this whole idea. We have corporate social advocacy and responsibility from an organization perspective.

00:42:15:05 - 00:42:46:05
Speaker 3
But at the individual level, there's also what we would call more entrepreneurship, which basically is kind of CSA, CSR. But in the individual equal, ability. And so we need leaders that are more entrepreneurs and that are given the leeway to be that person, to say, hey, this might sound like a good idea, but for these reasons, especially rooted in our purpose and for whatever else is going on in the internal and external terrain, this is why we shouldn't do it.

00:42:46:05 - 00:43:11:19
Speaker 3
And so I think that those companies that can have this whole kind of culture of openness that allows the chief communicator to also be the ethical compass and the, you know, to offer expertise in these sort of situations that we really haven't had to deal with before. I think those are the companies that are going to do really great and that aren't going to be the ones doing the performative work.

00:43:11:19 - 00:43:20:17
Speaker 3
And, that people are going to recognize are actually serious about making, you know, impactful changes that last for a long time.

00:43:20:21 - 00:43:44:05
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's, that's that's really powerful. Guidance, you know, to really making sure you're making most of the available tools using purpose as your guiding light, realizing it's no longer a matter of if it's when you're going to need to communicate on these key issues, creating the processes and culture of openness, I think, is, is tremendous advice.

00:43:44:07 - 00:44:05:00
Speaker 1
So, Doctor Eddie, thank you so much for joining us on, on building brand gravity. For those of you listening, I would, strongly suggest that if you like what you've heard today to reach out to, to Doctor Edie. She is, a very, well known, public speaker. So she could be available for for that.

00:44:05:02 - 00:44:19:19
Speaker 1
I'm sure she'd be happy to talk to you to give, advice and counsel and she's also a really, noted author. So, so, Doctor Edie, it was an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for for sharing your perspective with us today.

00:44:19:21 - 00:44:21:11
Speaker 3
Thank you for having me.

00:44:21:13 - 00:44:35:08
Speaker 1
Wonderful. And if you like what you're hearing, we invite you to follow and subscribe to Building Brand Gravity. Thank you very much and have a great day.

00:44:35:10 - 00:45:11:15
Speaker 2
You are listening to Building Brand Gravity Attracting People into Your Orbit, a business communications podcast. This is a show for communicate pros across industries looking to gain an inside view into industry influence. You're about to hear a conversation with leading industry professionals talking about the importance of building business impact through sound brand strategy. Let's get into the show.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:23:01
Speaker 1
Hi, this is Steve Housing, and today we have the privilege of talking with David Algorithm, one of the world's foremost executive coaches. We look at a lot of the different skill set and the leadership reset in our post-pandemic world, and how a leader really needs to have the tools, the insights and the relationships to allow people to show up without fear.

00:00:23:03 - 00:00:34:01
Speaker 1
Or this and more tips. On this episode of Building Brand Gravity and Happiness.

00:00:34:03 - 00:01:02:22
Speaker 2
You are listening to building brand gravity, attracting people into your orbit. A business communications podcast. This is a show for communications pros across industries looking to gain an inside view into industry influence. You're about to hear a conversation with leading industry professionals talking about the importance of building business impact through sound brand strategy. Let's get into the show.

00:01:03:00 - 00:01:26:16
Speaker 1
All right. Welcome, everybody, to this next episode of Building Brand Gravity. And I'm Steve Hauser, your host. And with me today is David All Britain. He's one of the foremost experts in terms of executive coaching. Is more than 35 years of leadership experience across government, corporate and nonprofit sectors. And we're going to have a fascinating discussion today about leadership and culture through comms.

00:01:26:16 - 00:01:29:11
Speaker 1
So, David, welcome so much today.

00:01:29:13 - 00:01:32:21
Speaker 3
Steve, great for thank you so much for having me today. I'm excited to be here.

00:01:32:21 - 00:02:02:15
Speaker 1
You know, there's so much we can cover, David. And I thought you have a really particularly unique, perspective on things. You know, you grew up, just a kid on the streets of Philly. You enlisted in the Navy, and, you know, after what, like basically about a year, you were one of the few people that then got selected to go to the Naval Academy, graduated from Annapolis, graduated from the Navy Postgraduate School, ten years of distinguished service.

00:02:02:17 - 00:02:29:17
Speaker 1
And then as you switched into the private sector, you took on leading comms roles at at some of the most renowned companies in the world. You know, looking at General Motors, Amazon, Raytheon, Hewlett Packard. But that wasn't enough for you. Then you said, okay, well, I want to be one of the few people that's going to shift from a public relations role to be a chief executive of a business division for a fortune 25 company.

00:02:29:19 - 00:02:59:04
Speaker 1
When you served as president of General Motors Defense, so had a great opportunity there. And then, as if that wasn't enough, you decided, I'm going to share the wealth and wisdom and you formed your current firm. 1988 strategy. And you're really focused on, on executive leadership and coaching. So, I mean, it's such a fascinating story. I mean, I just wanted to start by asking you kind of the question, how is how is leadership changed and how has it evolved?

00:02:59:06 - 00:03:22:10
Speaker 3
Thanks again for having me. I think leadership, you know, through the context of every industry, every organization, it's different based on the personalities and the individuals that are there. The understanding of the culture of that organization actually has a huge impact on the culture there. So as a leader, you have to understand what those dynamics are going in, because you help to influence that culture.

00:03:22:10 - 00:03:41:09
Speaker 3
But as you come in as a new leader, you also have to understand and with the dynamics are as you walk in, because you can't just come in today and change a culture by tomorrow. As much as everybody has a great idea that their way is the best way, doesn't necessarily resonate that way. In every culture that you step into.

00:03:41:11 - 00:04:01:17
Speaker 3
So you have to be very adept at reading, what's going on when you get there? Asking a lot of questions, make some fantastic connections and, you know, deep relationships with people, so that you can have a transparent one on one conversation with someone so that you're building trust at the core level that enables you to work together more effectively.

00:04:01:19 - 00:04:26:19
Speaker 1
You know, when you think about leadership skill set, you know, as, as you went through your career and particularly in the private sector, you know, how did the leadership skill sets you developed as a senior communicator translate into your role as an executive? Because usually the communicators advising the executive, how did that work? And did you take your own advice that you would have given yourself as an executive?

00:04:26:21 - 00:04:52:04
Speaker 3
No, it's it's great question. Not all the time. The one thing I'll say, and, and I try to tell this to my coaching clients and all those that I try to mentor as well. Every organization comes down to effective communications. Every organization has a finance, you know, team and HR and business development and, you know, other all the other functions which are critically important to the growth and well-being of that organization.

00:04:52:06 - 00:05:19:10
Speaker 3
But every company, regardless of what they're selling, products or services, is made up of human beings and for human beings to work together well in the same environment, they've got to communicate effectively, either verbally or in written form or whatever form they use as the primary means of engagement. So understanding that at a core, and being able to communicate, and, you know, create a narrative that is cogent, that's clear, that's compelling is something I learned as a communications guy.

00:05:19:12 - 00:05:43:13
Speaker 3
And I was able to translate that into, my chief executive role at GM defense, because then it became about something different. I had to represent the, the, the name, the company brand, the identity, with our customers, with, you know, other stakeholder audiences that I really just supported in the past. Instead of being the kind of the front line mouthpiece for that.

00:05:43:15 - 00:06:01:00
Speaker 3
That was a shift, a huge shift in my brain about how to, actually engage with that. Luckily, I had a strong network of folks who I'd work with, and I had my own mentors that I would engage with to kind of understand how they did it, what they went through, what their thought processes were, you know, those types of things.

00:06:01:05 - 00:06:22:18
Speaker 3
And so I, you know, leaned into that to kind of help me with my own transition, in those areas where I perhaps, maybe I thought I knew, you know, after many years of working as, you know, corporate communications person. But there was much I didn't know. And the willingness to just kind of open up my brain and and listen and take notes and pay attention.

00:06:22:20 - 00:06:24:05
Speaker 3
I think that helped me tremendously.

00:06:24:10 - 00:06:53:18
Speaker 1
Yeah. And and I think that perspective, you know, both being the, the counselor and the executive who has to make the call to be the face as you said, certainly has got to make you a much better, executive coach, whether you're counseling somebody on the comms side or whether you're counseling the leaders, the other thing that's really struck me as kind of interesting, is just how much the different generations are struggling to play out in impact leadership.

00:06:53:18 - 00:07:23:20
Speaker 1
I saw the quote the other day that said, 28% of non millennials or like Gen Xers like me, they view the concept of inclusivity at work as dealing with fairness, viewing it as being fair and equal. And those are kind of the viewpoint. But meanwhile, 71% of millennial just see this as related to core teamwork. So as your advising, advising communicators or executives or you're just thinking about leadership skills, how how do you how do you advise somebody to deal with it?

00:07:23:20 - 00:07:30:18
Speaker 1
If I view it as fairness, somebody else just use it as a way it should be. How should that influence my leadership style?

00:07:30:20 - 00:07:55:09
Speaker 3
Now? To be a great leader, you have to also be a great listener. It's one of the things that I kind of highlight in my coaching career. Now, that is a critical skill. We all grew up in different environments during different eras, during different, you know, just stages of the last, you know, 100 years. As you know, the economy has just transformed itself with the advent of the internet and creation of multibillion dollar companies.

00:07:55:14 - 00:08:30:00
Speaker 3
The way we engage, is totally different now. And so when I look at my children and how they've grown up, much different than me, and so as a leader who has a little gray in the beard these days, I have to be able to be open to different ways of thinking, different ways of engaging, different expectations and the same thing is true for the younger generation, too, because you think about how they've grown up, they've grown up, with, you know, devices in their hands, whether that be a tablet or computer or, you know, a cell phone that gives them instant access to all types of information and engagement with people that they know,

00:08:30:02 - 00:08:59:21
Speaker 3
whether those people are right next to them, you know, in the next house over or they're across the world in working and living in another, you know, country. That's not something that we had growing up. And so, you know, the expectation that, a younger professional might have, you know, around the topic of teamwork, will be different than my own, and my effectiveness as a leader will really be part and parcel to my understanding of how that individual thinks, how they learn, how they engage, what's important to them, you know, those types of things.

00:08:59:23 - 00:09:20:15
Speaker 3
But at the same time, I have to be open enough to allow them to learn me as well. You know, what were my pet peeves? What are the things that are important to me? And I have to be cognizant enough to, you know, recognize that I do have to be transparent in this way so that, you know, my ability to lead them in, in whatever context is going to be effective.

00:09:20:17 - 00:09:46:20
Speaker 3
In a way that's, you know, going to allow us to work well together until you understand, you know, how to listen. It will limit your capacity and your ability to be an effective leader across generations. That's one thing I learned in spades. In my own career. I can tell you that, you know, coming out of the military with a certain mindset and then, you know, stepping into a corporate environment that did not have the same culture as I was used to in the military.

00:09:46:20 - 00:10:10:14
Speaker 3
I was a huge transition for me. And I had to turn this brain on differently. And I know for many years I was showing up as Lieutenant Commander David O'Brien, U.S. Navy, in my corporate jobs. And, you know, it actually took me, taking my first 360 degree assessment to get the feedback of my team, whereas I showed up one way and I felt one, you know, certain way about how we were operating and how the team felt about me.

00:10:10:19 - 00:10:30:04
Speaker 3
But their 360 feedback told me something different, and it shook me to my core, and I had to make some tremendous leadership adjustments in how I was showing up to be effective, you know, and leading those teams. I was very thankful to have that opportunity. I was very thankful to get that feedback. I think as leaders, we should be seeking that feedback on a regular basis.

00:10:30:04 - 00:10:55:00
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think it's is very important and it can be very, very sobering. But that 360 feedback to the point that you said takes it from just beyond what you're thinking, from your viewpoint to how do my team slack? And I think one of the other things too, you really talked about a commitment to listening. You know, there's also a commitment to teaching where we're at a point where a lot of boomers are leaving the, leaving the workforce.

00:10:55:00 - 00:11:21:10
Speaker 1
A lot of that leadership knowledge, a lot of that experience, I've heard it described as a silver wave kind of leaving. But maybe you can talk about that. I mean, what what kind of conversations are you having with senior leaders about kind of their requirement to somewhat pay it forward to the next generation of leaders? What are what are some of those skill sets that they need to pass along that that you think are particularly effective?

00:11:21:12 - 00:11:43:21
Speaker 3
So I think, you know, outside of whatever functional expertise you have, whatever you do, did you've chosen to do after you've come out of college or, you know, if you didn't go to college, whatever you choose to do professionally, become an expert at a lot of things, right? You have to be good at a lot of things and become great at something, so that you can help, your career grow and prosper.

00:11:43:23 - 00:12:05:02
Speaker 3
But you should also learn as much as you can outside of your function to, you know, really develop your business acumen and understand how the organization makes money, whether that's a for profit nonprofit education organization, whatever it may be, how your function relates to that is your going to be and your understanding of that is going to be your success factor.

00:12:05:08 - 00:12:40:12
Speaker 3
And so picking up knowledge from those who have been around, you know, longer than you and taking away that institutional knowledge, you know, is, is critical to future success. On the flip side, those that are probably one, two, five years away from retirement, your opportunity to, you know, continue the success of the organization and actually create somewhat of a legacy for yourself is your ability to reach back and pass on some of that knowledge, whether or not you agree with how they think, how they engage, you know, what environment they're living in, what their you know, their value proposition is in their own minds.

00:12:40:14 - 00:13:02:06
Speaker 3
Your opportunity, is to continue the success of the organization that you're in long after you're gone. And so a commitment to that, you know, with all everything that you've done for the years that you've worked for certain organizations, whether it's two years or 35 years, can be actually very important, you know, based upon the decision you make in your own head.

00:13:02:08 - 00:13:25:20
Speaker 3
So that's the opportunity we have on both sides of it and the requirement for us to continue to grow. So that, you know, the old adage of, you know, what got you here won't get you there, you know, remains true because there's so much you have to learn to continue to grow. And as I say, grow and grow in your career, the much as much as you can pick up from other folks in either direction, will help you tremendously.

00:13:25:23 - 00:13:52:10
Speaker 1
Yeah. And you think about the fundamental shifts, impacting the work workforce, workplace culture, you know, the rise of the hybrid work environment. And then probably, you know, one of the most significant, overlays has been, that at that of the lens of DNI and the need to really, really address it and to make it be a continued commitment in terms of how organizations move forward.

00:13:52:12 - 00:14:21:04
Speaker 1
And here's another stat to get you to respond to David, that only 33% of Gen Xers, about 37% of boomers, believe that DNI really matters when they're considering a new job. But when you look at millennials, 47% say a company's DNI policies and approach are critical to that. So what are the lessons for for today's leaders out of that pretty stark shift?

00:14:21:05 - 00:14:43:10
Speaker 3
As you know, the landscapes scape and, you know, corporations and just organizations writ large have changed, in recognition of the fact that, you know, an effective Dei culture, inside any organization improves the effectiveness of that organization. It's, you know, there are studies that that kind of show that and make the business case for why it matters.

00:14:43:12 - 00:15:09:17
Speaker 3
But that didn't come down to every individual. Right? You can create a Dei culture. You can, you know, work on initiatives that support Dei. Overall. But as it relates to how every individual relates to, you know, those concepts, and there's a separate and distinct concept of diversity versus equity versus inclusion, understanding the nuances of each one of those and how it's important and why, is critical.

00:15:09:19 - 00:15:34:22
Speaker 3
The fact that the younger population, you know, views things differently than us is not any surprise at all. The way they've grown up and how engaged they've been inside their own, you know, physical environments. But being able to, you know, connect and chat with people around the world instantaneously through gaming, through, you know, cell phone chats, through whatever mechanism that they utilize to, you know, stay connected with people.

00:15:35:00 - 00:16:02:13
Speaker 3
We didn't have that. I joke all the time when I graduated high school in 1983, my graduation gift for my parents was a, an electric typewriter. Okay. That's big difference from, you know, coming out and getting the latest Apple, you know, iPhone or whatever that is. And so, you know, that we continue and we talked about this a little bit, have to continue to understand the differences, you know, between us so that we can better, you know, come together and work together.

00:16:02:15 - 00:16:32:04
Speaker 3
You know, for me, you know, I'm very much committed to the concepts of diversity, equity, inclusion. But I really like to focus on equity, because when everybody is able to understand, everybody else's, situation, their backgrounds and can, you know, show up in a way that is going to allow everyone that wears the same badge, to operate in a way that allows everyone to feel included.

00:16:32:06 - 00:16:58:18
Speaker 3
And you know, that they're going to have equal opportunity to, move forward and be successful irrespective of background, educational, you know, experience, you know, any of those things, it is just the collective, you know, ideal, if you will, that equity matters. I think is is a true game changing opportunity. But again, it's understanding the perspective of everybody around you that won't, you know, be the catalyst for making that successful.

00:16:58:20 - 00:17:18:03
Speaker 1
You know, I heard you say something, in the speech I watched you give, a few weeks ago, you made the comment. You said, to be a good leader, you have to allow your people to show up without fear. And I just thought that was a really, really powerful statement. Can you share a little bit about that?

00:17:18:03 - 00:17:30:12
Speaker 1
And what are what are the implications of that? Not just for leaders, but particularly within the comms function and their role within their teams and the broader organization?

00:17:30:14 - 00:17:52:14
Speaker 3
Absolutely. If you think about just the experience that we all have and, you know, our desire to come to work in whatever form that is, whether we're going back in the office or we're showing up on zoom screens on a daily basis, being able to freely share ideas are, you know, provide contributions to the overall success of the organization, etc., regardless of title.

00:17:52:16 - 00:18:13:08
Speaker 3
Is very important way to keep people engaged, fully committed, to the task, to the strategy, you know, strategy creation and strategy execution, all those things. If someone is showing up in an environment that they believe, like they're not going to be able to be a full contributor, their ideas are going to be looked at very negatively.

00:18:13:08 - 00:18:33:21
Speaker 3
And the behaviors of leaders and peers and others around them that perhaps make them feel like they can't be 100% contributor, that is, you know, creation of fear. You know, maybe not like, you know, Halloween like we had yesterday with, you know, scary mask or anything. But there are environments where you have, you know, you have a screaming boss and you know that we've grown up in some of those environments.

00:18:33:22 - 00:19:07:13
Speaker 3
That is not a sustainable environment for someone to kind of show up and again, give all of them to that environment. So it is our job as leaders to to help understand how our people believe that, you know, they can contribute not just, you know, the team level, but as a leader, knowing each one of your individuals to a level outside of their title, outside of their job responsibility, knowing enough about them and their personality and what's important to them, that, you know, we can adapt our leadership style as necessary to engage with each one of our employees.

00:19:07:13 - 00:19:33:13
Speaker 3
The right way, rather than just looking at the aggregate. And, you know, creating one leadership style that's, you know, going to be a one size fits all, that is not a tenable position. And, you know, so our job is to allow them, as you said, to kind of show up without fear. You know, it's more important, you know, on top of that to, you know, just really learn the individual, you know, as an individual and help them be successful in everything that they do.

00:19:33:15 - 00:20:08:06
Speaker 1
Yeah, I think a lot of that then it's really what builds trust. And trust is the underpinning of really having a successful team, having a successful brand. And, and I and I saw there was a quick survey lately looking at trust and I thought hearing you talk, it just really reminded me of that, that roughly 47% of business leaders strongly agree that trust today is more bottom up than top down, whereas only 35% of employees strongly agree that that's the case.

00:20:08:08 - 00:20:28:14
Speaker 1
That was is this just part of that? That continued evolution and transformation in the workforce and how that changes leadership style? But anyway, I thought that was interesting that the leaders are saying, hey, this organization is more bottom up than top down, but the employees are saying, well, that may not be the case. And what what's your take on that?

00:20:28:14 - 00:20:32:08
Speaker 1
And then what are what are the lessons for leaders?

00:20:32:10 - 00:20:54:09
Speaker 3
That's actually a surprising stat to me. To see that, you know, there are all kinds of surveys that can indicate all types of results. But when, you know, when you ask that, it kind of just for a little bit of a surprise to me as I think about that, I believe top down leadership is ultimately important.

00:20:54:10 - 00:21:21:23
Speaker 3
We have to have trust at the top aren't starting from the chief executive or, you know, the overarching leader for the organization. And that builds and it cascades because the senior leadership is responsible for cascading the strategic imperative for the organization. That is the only way that anybody can come on board, and the organization can understand how they fit into whatever strategic direction that organization is going into.

00:21:22:01 - 00:21:57:01
Speaker 3
And so, you know, that trust is important to establish from the top that I believe understanding what the employees, you know, believe about certain things. I know many organizations do kind of biennial, you know, surveys on engagement within their organization, and they get some very interesting feedback from the employees who choose to participate, paying attention to that and actually creating actions in, you know, in programs and imperatives across an organization is the only way, to continue your success, you know, going forward.

00:21:57:03 - 00:22:19:18
Speaker 3
Because what will happen and I think we started to see what's happening, you know, with that whole term of, you know, the great resignation, people that are unhappy will vote with their feet. They have other options out there. And so, you know, your inability or your willing, you know, unwillingness to engage at the level, that's required to keep them engaged, and creating that environment of trust.

00:22:19:20 - 00:22:35:00
Speaker 3
Well, you'll, you'll start seeing, you know, diminishing returns when people start walking out the door and going to work for other, you know, companies. It's very important to pay attention to that. And, you know, in my belief system, you know, that top down leadership is ultimately important.

00:22:35:02 - 00:23:09:19
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I think I think it's a really interesting take that you offer David and I, and I definitely think you need top down leadership of the strategy and the purpose and all of those. I and I wonder, as part of the response to that, is it just so much of what we've gone through in the past couple of years of the pandemic and the change of, culture of change, your workforce, there's a lot of things that bubble up, and maybe it's a distinction between what are those things that bubble up that make organizations and leaders need to adapt, and then what are those things that are core to the organization's mission that

00:23:09:19 - 00:23:17:17
Speaker 1
may be a little bit put behind the scenes, as people are more focused on their immediate worlds, immediate teams.

00:23:17:19 - 00:23:18:20
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:23:18:22 - 00:23:44:17
Speaker 1
So yeah, so, so as you think about the leaders, you know, and even just thinking about that, there's so much pressure on our leaders in terms of you've got to be a business expert, you got to be a functioning expert. You need to understand culture. You need to understand all these different dynamics. But how can a leader. Manage all of this?

00:23:44:17 - 00:24:03:05
Speaker 1
How can a leader stay centered? How can a leader stay balanced it? How do they take care of themselves, their network, and their team? And what's what's the importance of that? What are what are some of the things that you're really counseling, the leaders you're working with, they need to think about to be more effective?

00:24:03:07 - 00:24:27:11
Speaker 3
Well, so if you think about that in the context of actually being a leader, you have to do some self analysis yourself, before you can actually take care of anybody around you. There's a professor at Harvard Business School who's done a, you know, she's one of the, you know, leading experts on leadership. And, you know, her whole premise is the fact that, you know, to be an effective leader, you first have to take care of yourself.

00:24:27:13 - 00:24:46:22
Speaker 3
You've got to take care of your network before you then take care of your team. I truly resonate with that, because an unhappy or unfulfilled individual is not going to be able to bring all of yourself to the environment, which means, you know, you got to think about how you're showing up in that environment, how people are engaging and resonating with you.

00:24:47:00 - 00:25:03:09
Speaker 3
And so we got to ask ourselves that question, you know, how are we showing up every day? And do we even know? All right, are we even fully committed to, you know, what we're working on right now? Are we just going through the motions because, you know, we need a paycheck? Are we happy with the role and responsibility we have?

00:25:03:09 - 00:25:25:11
Speaker 3
Are we happy, with the structure that we have, the strategy, the, you know, amount of resources that we have? Do we have the right business case? Do I have, you know, the right intention? All of those types of things, you know, so beyond just the great job title, you know, we've got to ask ourselves, you know, what is it that we want, and expect out of the situation that we're in?

00:25:25:13 - 00:25:59:19
Speaker 3
And until I can fully understand myself, then I can't project anything positively, necessarily to everybody else, because people can recognize when, you know, there's a state of uncertainty or just, you know, you have misgivings and those types of things, you exude things without even knowing it just because of your own uncertainty. And so the better conversation that you're able to have with yourself and then transparently engage with your team in a way that kind of opens a kimono a little bit that allows them in so that they can understand your nuances a little bit.

00:25:59:21 - 00:26:04:08
Speaker 3
You can create that two way dialog that's necessary for very, very effective leadership.

00:26:04:10 - 00:26:19:10
Speaker 1
So, so tell me a little bit about about executive coaching. You know, how does somebody if they're looking for an executive coach, how do they make the decision to say, hey, I need one? And then secondly, how do they find the right coach for them?

00:26:19:12 - 00:26:44:09
Speaker 3
I would you know, I would posit and state for everyone the most effective coaching relationships has, you know, with a coaching coach and a coaching client really comes down to change. All right. You think about how much change we go through on a regular basis and transfer. You know sometimes it's transformative transformative change. You think about the transition from college to the work environment.

00:26:44:09 - 00:27:00:17
Speaker 3
Then you know every subsequent promotion that you get. Well, those are just forms of change that you'll have to address going forward. Everybody that I've kind of ever met, you know, there are few people that love where they're staying and, you know, sitting right now and just kind of want to stay in that same job for the rest of our career.

00:27:00:19 - 00:27:19:06
Speaker 3
We all have aspirations and goals to kind of continue to move forward in our career, even if it's a lot of remove in the short term. The more we learn, the more we're able to get access to different information, different opportunities to show our worth to our value proposition. You know, these are things that enable us to continue to be successful inside the organization.

00:27:19:08 - 00:27:39:14
Speaker 3
A coach can tremendously help you with that because there are so many barriers in our own head that kind of don't permit us to be successful going forward. One of those things might be, you know, I don't see myself as an effective networker. I don't see myself as an effective communicator. I have just kind of this imposter syndrome.

00:27:39:14 - 00:28:04:19
Speaker 3
I have the title, but I'm still asking myself every day, why did they select me for this position? And, you know, there's so many different ways to kind of not allow yourself to be successful. And that's what a coach provides for you if you can, you know, use the analogy of, you know, coaches and sports coaches kind of help bring out your inner game and, you know, allow you to focus on the bigger picture that perhaps you're not even, you know, thinking about today.

00:28:04:21 - 00:28:21:05
Speaker 3
And so, you know, one of the things, particularly as you go up, that the pyramid inside an organization, you start looking left and right as you go up that pyramid, there are less and less people who are your peers. And as you get all the way to to a CEO and you look left to right, there is nobody left to kind of ask questions.

00:28:21:07 - 00:28:41:08
Speaker 3
And so if you aspire for that level of, you know, success in your career, you've got to be prepared for that tremendous change. You know, that happens in between now and whatever that North Star, you know, career goal is for you recognizing that, you know, there are people out there like coaches, to kind of help and assist you.

00:28:41:10 - 00:29:00:13
Speaker 3
You know, that is a tremendous resource. And the one key distinction that I, you know, offer for folks is, you know, a lot of folks toss around the term mentor and coach, as one as, you know, kind of equal, the big difference, you know, in my viewpoint how I tell my clients, you know, mentors are essential.

00:29:00:15 - 00:29:23:17
Speaker 3
I encourage everyone to have as many mentors as they can, to kind of help them understand more about the marketplace, about the industry they're in, about the job function, whatever those things in, and sometimes mentor is not a big a mentor that's official. So a lot of times it's a small team and it's just someone that you know and trust and who can offer, you know, insights and information that can help you grow.

00:29:23:19 - 00:29:44:03
Speaker 3
A coach is much different because, you know, mentoring is informational and coaching is transformational because what a coach does is use it's, you know, his or her listening skills to really dive into the psyche of the, you know, the individual who's being coached and find out what those things that might be getting in the in the way of their future success.

00:29:44:05 - 00:30:04:18
Speaker 3
And then diving in on those things a mentor tends to, and I know from my own personal, experience of being a mentor to many people of my career, I tend to be in transient mode when I'm a mentor here. My journey is this way, and so perhaps your journey should go this way. Based upon my own experience, a coach is not going to tell them what to do.

00:30:04:18 - 00:30:29:02
Speaker 3
We're really trying to focus on what they want. You know, where they want to go and, you know, try to pull out those things that are going to be necessary for you to move forward as a coach, I'm paying attention as much as you know as what you say to what you don't say. And actually your body language when you say it, because you may have imposter syndrome, you may not feel like you're an effective network or a communicator.

00:30:29:04 - 00:30:47:01
Speaker 3
And how you've just answered a question, from me can tell me a lot about how you're actually feeling. And so that allows us to kind of dive in on that and understand the nuances of what it is that, you know, maybe getting in your way that you didn't even know. That's the I think the huge difference between coaching and mentoring.

00:30:47:03 - 00:31:09:15
Speaker 3
And for those that are recognizing that they could use some help and support in those areas, you know, a coach would be a fantastic, you know, resource for you. There are tons and tons of coaches out there. I happen to be accredited by the International Coaching Federation. The ICF has more than 55,000 coaches, as members, who have different levels of accreditation.

00:31:09:17 - 00:31:45:04
Speaker 3
But there are many more, you know, other coaching organizations as well. Those that might be interested in finding a coach can do searches online. And I would encourage you to talk to 2 or 3 coaches just to check out the individual engagement, and the relationship, that you have with that individual to see if you personally feel comfortable with opening up your kimono and actually having a, you know, forthright and transparent communications, you know, sense of a communications, with this person so that you can really dive into ultimately create what's what I would call an individual development plan that's going to work for you.

00:31:45:06 - 00:32:05:07
Speaker 1
Yeah. That's that, that's that's really great. And and I really, really appreciate the distinction. You really covered there in terms of difference of a coach and how a coach is going to move you versus what you're looking for from a mentor. And I think those are really, really important points to, to, to put together. So I really appreciate that.

00:32:05:09 - 00:32:27:23
Speaker 1
So let me ask you a question. So going back we can't get in a time machine because too much has changed. So we can't we can't do the, you know, David today going back to the 18 year old David. But if you were to talk to somebody in similar shoes to you are where you were in Philadelphia today in 18 year old, what is it that you would tell them about about leadership?

00:32:27:23 - 00:32:37:07
Speaker 1
What is it that you would tell them about potentially a career in communications? What what advice would you give the next generation?

00:32:37:08 - 00:32:55:21
Speaker 3
I actually do it a lot. I mentor a lot of young professionals. My, you know, my youngest is a junior at Elon University right now. So amongst his friend group and just others, you know, I do a lot of mentoring at the Naval Academy. Midshipmen there. I have the same conversation over and over.

00:32:55:23 - 00:33:13:09
Speaker 3
Because I was a knucklehead at 18. I look back now, I can say that, and I look at these kids now, there's no way, I was even close to, you know, as capable as these young people are today, I tell them, take advantage of that. You really don't know how sharp you are yet.

00:33:13:10 - 00:33:31:16
Speaker 3
It'll be 15 or 20 years until you really the, you know, the button on your head just turns on and you really realize what you've done and graduating from the institutions that you've graduated from. So take advantage of that and learn as much as you can about everything. Be inquisitive. Ask questions you know, but don't be afraid of that.

00:33:31:18 - 00:33:50:07
Speaker 3
People who you want to you want to engage with will definitely appreciate you wanting to learn more and learn more about their experience and and where they've come from and how they've made the decisions to get where they are. Those are all, you know, great pieces of feedback that you can incorporate into your own decision making process.

00:33:50:11 - 00:34:08:13
Speaker 3
So as you determine what your future career opportunity is going to be and what ultimately your North Star is going to be, you know, having all of that feedback collectively is nothing but goodness and helping you make smarter, more strategic decisions. One of the things I, you know, tell people all the time, right. Let's think 20 years from now.

00:34:08:15 - 00:34:27:10
Speaker 3
Right. So we are November 1st, 2042 right now. Where are you? What's your job title? You know, how much money you're making. How many people are you leading? But to me, one of the most important questions you can ask someone, how many people did you help along the way? I truly believe we do not get through this life alone.

00:34:27:10 - 00:34:50:23
Speaker 3
And the more that I put goodness into the universe in terms of how many people I have helped, it comes back to me in spades when I, you know, do that just as a natural course. My existence and I don't ask for anything, from these individuals. Right. One of the requirements for people that I mentor, first thing I tell them is, all right, you're going to hear my voice 15 years from now when this young professionals reaching out to you and they're asking you for help.

00:34:51:00 - 00:35:03:23
Speaker 3
I hope you hear David Albright and telling you in your ear, you got to help that person, regardless of your schedule, how busy you are, anything. Because that's how we make this work. That's how we continue to be successful together by just helping each other along the way.

00:35:04:01 - 00:35:25:08
Speaker 1
But that's it. That's, I think, a really powerful way to, to wrap here and kind of a challenge to everybody that's listening to, to this podcast is to put down on a piece of paper, where do you think you're going to be on 15 years? Heck, I'd even say put it in an envelope and put it on a shelf and check it every so often to see how you're making progress so.

00:35:25:10 - 00:35:37:14
Speaker 1
Well, David, I've absolutely loved our discussion today about leadership. Your perspective on on so many things. Any any final thoughts that you want to leave our audience with before we wrap today?

00:35:37:16 - 00:36:03:21
Speaker 3
No. Thanks again for the opportunity. It's, you know, really, as you look at your individual circumstance and, you know, as you think about where you want to go, think about those people in your world, personally and professionally, that can be of great help to you and open up your life and your thinking and allow them in at a level that's going to, you know, allow them to be helpful to you.

00:36:03:23 - 00:36:27:19
Speaker 3
That's this mindset that we can do it all alone. I'm smarter than everybody. I have great education, great degrees and all of those things. They're great to a point, but we there's no way. Just because you have title does not mean you know everything. And so even, you know, being able to recognize that even when you have the highest title, there going to be people that work for you that know a whole lot more about a whole lot more stuff than you.

00:36:27:21 - 00:36:48:05
Speaker 3
And you should open your mind up to learning from everybody. And a 360 degree, you know, circle. So, you know, kind of circle when you open your mind up to that, I think what you'll find is that you become a, you know, much more rounded individual and a much better leader overall. And, so that's, kind of the takeaway I'd love for you all to think about today.

00:36:48:07 - 00:37:07:13
Speaker 1
Wonderful. Well, some great closing advice. And once again, on this program, gravity, we did an interview with David Albright and, currently with 1988 strategies. We invite you to listen to more of our podcast, and we will post some more information. If you want to get in touch with David directly so that you can, reach him.

00:37:07:13 - 00:37:11:13
Speaker 1
So, David, thanks again for a great conversation.

00:37:11:15 - 00:37:16:14
Speaker 3
Thank you again. Have a great one.

00:37:16:16 - 00:37:45:15
Speaker 2
We are gas business communications. We are a team of media strategists, storytellers and engagement experts who meet you at the intersection of business and communications. To learn more, visit Gas communications.com. You're listening to Building Brand Gravity, Attracting People into Your Orbit, a gas business communications podcast. Keep connected with us by subscribing to the show in your favorite podcast player.

00:37:45:20 - 00:37:57:13
Speaker 2
If you like what you've heard, please rate the show that helps us to keep delivering the latest industry influence. Thanks for listening. Until next time.

00;00;00;10 - 00;00;30;07
Speaker 3
Hello and welcome to today's episode of Building Brand Gravity. I'm Steve Hulsey, your host. With me today is Professor Matt. I guess I should say full professor Matt Regas at DePaul University. He's with the College of Communication, where he teaches both graduate and undergraduate programs. Courses on business literacy, corporate social responsibility, entrepreneurship, media relations, digital, traditional public relations, you name it.

00;00;30;07 - 00;00;45;11
Speaker 3
If it's related to comms and advertising. The good professor has been part of that. More than 30 colleges and universities around the world are using books that he's coauthored. So, Professor Regas, it's a pleasure to have you with us here today.

00;00;45;13 - 00;00;54;16
Speaker 4
Hey, Steve. It's, it's great to see you. It's great to be here. Hopefully, I don't say something that then makes that number go down. We want to. We want to grow that number. Well, we'll.

00;00;54;16 - 00;01;17;08
Speaker 3
Make one of our KPIs. Do we add more or more colleges and universities to this? And I think really the best way to do that is just really kind of share your, your, your perspective. I mean, you've had a really interesting, academic career. You've been published tremendously, not just, the books that you coauthored, but in professional publications.

00;01;17;11 - 00;01;40;20
Speaker 3
You know, you've really demonstrated a very, just a passion for communications. I also know you're a member of, of the Page Society of Leading Communicators. So maybe we start a little bit there. What what fuels your passion about, the communications industry and, you know, makes you want to share that with, with students and professionals?

00;01;40;22 - 00;02;04;26
Speaker 4
Well, I, I, I think the start off, I would say being a professor in many ways is a calling. And so I think, you know, that, prior to going back to school and doing my doctorate and, and, becoming a little assistant professor to start things off, I did have a career in, financial communications and, business publishing and, you know what's really rewarding?

00;02;04;26 - 00;02;28;08
Speaker 4
And I know you know this because you also do a fair amount of mentoring and working with your own team and then giving back, externally, I really think when you're when you're a teacher and a mentor, you have the opportunity to give back and positively shape. You know, it's a privilege. I get to work with a lot of the future leaders of our, business.

00;02;28;10 - 00;02;54;03
Speaker 4
We've been fortunate have, have, a rising up the ranks that have come out of, you know, Chicago's a major agency in corporate, and nonprofit and cultural, hub. And so to get to use Chicago as my classroom and laboratory and launching point for my teaching and research, this past now, 13 years has really been, a gift.

00;02;54;05 - 00;03;14;20
Speaker 3
You know, we we were talking a little bit earlier just about your research. And I know that you're regularly talking to the top communicators around the world. Agency, corporate, other professors using that to inform your coursework and your books. What are you. What are you hearing? What's on the mind of the top communicators right now?

00;03;14;22 - 00;03;39;19
Speaker 4
Well, it's interesting, when we're recording this right now, I'm actually teaching a graduate seminar on the future of what we call professional communication, or procom, which is a graduate program I lead. And one of those, quarter long assignments is called Crystal Ball Conversations. And yes, you can get crystal balls on on Etsy. Big fan of Etsy.

00;03;39;21 - 00;04;14;25
Speaker 4
And so I've been interviewing different, senior leaders, folks that we both know. And it's interesting to have this conversation today because I've just concluded, in the past couple weeks, interviews with eight senior leaders, and there's definitely some overlapping themes. And I would say the really big theme, Steve, right now is we have been arguing for decades, as you know, that we need to have a seat at the table to do our jobs, you know, and be the most effective and be strategic counselors and advisors and not simply tacticians, technicians.

00;04;14;28 - 00;04;45;01
Speaker 4
We need a seat. And the senior folks consistently that I talked to said, that's great. We're getting that seat at the table. But now what do we do with it? Right? Are we going to take advantage of this opportunity or are we going to squander it, or are we going to add value? Actually, as counselors advisors, do we understand enough about the business and our clients and society to really be able to serve and stay, in that counselor and advisor, capacity?

00;04;45;01 - 00;05;09;15
Speaker 4
And I know we're going to talk about this. Our business is shifting from we've always got to be good at words and messages, crafting and sending effective messages. But hopefully we're reaching a stage in the evolution of our business where we're going to actually be counseling the actions and behaviors and the policies that we then communicate to our stakeholders through messaging.

00;05;09;22 - 00;05;27;19
Speaker 3
Well, you know, what I think is kind of interesting about that point is, you know, again, thinking about when, when I began my career and, you know, the age of the dinosaurs, where you would write a press release, you put it in an envelope, you would call the journalist, say, hey, I'm going to send you something, be on the look for it.

00;05;27;22 - 00;05;49;26
Speaker 3
You mailed it 3 to 5 days later, you called up and said, hey, did you get that? That information I sent you, you would have a discussion. And it was it was a very, kind of paced dialog. But we are in such a hyper connected, hyper, always on to the second world, you know, communications and messaging as they used to be, are no longer.

00;05;49;26 - 00;06;19;10
Speaker 3
Because when you think about corporate reputation or you think about corporate brand that's defined by every single interaction. So while things in the past may have been siloed in departments or businesses or HR or different type of communications, now all of that is falling under the purview of of the CC0. So as you're talking to them, I mean, are they feeling confident or are they feeling overwhelmed?

00;06;19;12 - 00;06;29;26
Speaker 3
Are they what are they what are what are they feeling? So they want to seize the opportunity. They've got to recognize the opportunity. And they got to be motivated to take it.

00;06;29;28 - 00;06;58;07
Speaker 4
Well, you know what I'll take? I'll take a step back. And before I answer the feelings part and observation, I think you've noticed this too, that the titles of those CC0 and top jobs are shifting to meet. I think the reality of the always on and complex world we're in. So you're seeing corporate affairs pop up in more titles, which seems to imply then that government relations, government affairs and policy, falls under it.

00;06;58;10 - 00;07;28;12
Speaker 4
You're seeing, more integrated functions of a chief communications and marketing officer. You're seeing and this aligns with page, society thought leadership. You're seeing brands sometimes explicitly in the titles, of, these senior folks, because of their responsibilities. It is more holistic, right. And just operating in silos is not going to, cut it to how they feel.

00;07;28;15 - 00;07;58;16
Speaker 4
I think there's a fair degree of, optimism when you ask about the future of our, business. And I think if we think back and we're not talking as much these days about reputation, right. Talking a lot about brand and purpose and values and ESG, if we went back 10 or 20 years ago, we were still trying to make the business case for why our function deserved that seat and role at the table and the value that we could add.

00;07;58;18 - 00;08;37;12
Speaker 4
And I think the rise of ESG stakeholder capitalism, purpose, this has permeated boardrooms and C-suite. And so I actually think it's giving us more of an opening to shine, in the link it up, we joked about the beginning KPIs. There's KPIs we can link up, and there's more measurable ways now to show tangible impact. So, I told my students a lot of times, hey, like, your forbearers, the Steves of the world, the guys that were sending mailing and maybe you were using fax machines to track a lot of acts.

00;08;37;13 - 00;08;39;17
Speaker 3
Last professor.

00;08;39;19 - 00;08;58;25
Speaker 4
Hey, hey, that was a, in the air world. That was a high end service station. That was. That was billable. There's been a lot of heavy lifting that's been done to to get these rising leaders to, I think, a clear path in many ways than, than we've had, in many years.

00;08;58;27 - 00;09;17;18
Speaker 3
Well, and I and I think as you talk through that, you know, there was a big shift again, thinking about discussions about the role and the function of senior communicators. You know, several years ago, the conversation was very much about where we should have a seat at the table because we're the corporate conscience. We're we're talking to these audiences.

00;09;17;18 - 00;09;50;25
Speaker 3
We're studying what they're talking about on social media. And really, I think when you look at the convergence of things, like you said about ESG, the rapid pace of technology, you know, you're really having what once was a role of corporate conscious, which is really more of a core corporate strategy. And you think about, you know, the strategic advisors to the CEO, you know, comms is part of everything that that happens within a corporation in a way that it never has before.

00;09;50;28 - 00;10;14;12
Speaker 3
So I guess one of the things I'd be interested in from a couple perspective, one, from what you're hearing from the professionals you're talking about. And then secondly, as you're thinking about how do you educate and train the next generation? To me it seems like there's two kind of categories that skill sets or competencies that, let's see CEOs need to have if they're going to be successful in that seat at the table.

00;10;14;14 - 00;10;55;16
Speaker 3
What is kind of what I'm calling executive skill sets, critical thinking, business acumen, outcome based focus, ability to influence, you know, that the C-suite ability to negotiate, ability to break out a 360 degree world, those are really executive level competency for anybody in the C-suite. But then there's kind of required skill sets, either among themselves or in their team, to think about deeper audience understanding and channel management reality to create compelling content, whether it's B2B, B2C or some hybrid version, and the ability to tap analytics and then now co-create.

00;10;55;23 - 00;11;14;15
Speaker 3
So that's an awful lot to kind of put in there in the two category of executive skill set and com skill set. So how do you build up a competency in that. And then from your role as as a professor, how do you teach about those different skill sets?

00;11;14;17 - 00;11;54;06
Speaker 4
Yeah, it's a it's I really like kind of thinking of it in terms of executive skill sets versus com skill sets almost. You can think of the latter is almost the meat and potatoes or the bread and butter, sort of the, the table stakes that you've, that you've got to have. And so at an undergraduate level and even at a graduate level, the comp skill sets, we shouldn't dismiss, in terms of training and development, because one thing I would say that senior folks in the business, like you see will that are that are the hiring managers and the ultimate bosses will complain about is is the level of writing and editing skills

00;11;54;06 - 00;12;24;05
Speaker 4
or the the the lack of strong writing and editing, skills and see, I think that's also tied then to good writers are generally good critical thinkers and then extend it further even to problem solving or not. And so that is something that is fundamental, I think, as, as educators or as if you're a trainer, you know, learning, learning and, development person that's really core.

00;12;24;05 - 00;12;48;21
Speaker 4
And so I think that still needs to be, part of every class, not just a, writing class. And, and of course, we also have having just developed a new graduate program, Professional Communication. We had those fascinating discussions. We did the focus groups with hiring managers and senior folks and mid-level folks and our business. How do you, level up?

00;12;48;21 - 00;13;22;10
Speaker 4
And so we have a digital media skills, class because we're all content creators now, on, on on some level. Right. But we also have a chief communication officer, business advisor, and counselor. Course. Right. That is, part of our, curriculum. The other thing that I would say Covid has really put, center stage and maybe we can talk about this is the rise of employee engagement and internal communication.

00;13;22;12 - 00;13;47;28
Speaker 4
As you know, for many years, it was kind of that stepchild. Right. And the external comms and the media relations was really the bread and butter. And maybe I see that even more because I work with young people every day. But we built multiple classes into our, our curriculum focused on effective teams and effective internal, communications and employee engagement.

00;13;48;00 - 00;14;15;03
Speaker 4
Because to live out these, these priorities, whether, you know, ESG or, purpose, employees are core to, carrying out these missions or getting getting employee activism. Right. I don't think is going away. Even if the even if the economy is cooling, that's a reality that can that can impede, the progress of our clients and organizations.

00;14;15;03 - 00;14;40;22
Speaker 3
Yeah. And, you know, employee engagement used to be pretty much the, you know, playground of, human resources. You know, it was very much about, you know, what are these engagement scores? How are we progressing? And as you've talked about, you know, the impact of Covid and and particularly, you know, among the, creative class or the class, it doesn't need to physically be in our location.

00;14;40;24 - 00;15;01;14
Speaker 3
It's really changed that dynamic. And then you look at, you know, the war for talent, you look at the great resignation. And you see study after study shows that purpose and the ability to live that purpose. People have more options than ever. So if they don't believe in the purpose of the corporation, you know they can leave. And guess what?

00;15;01;14 - 00;15;23;29
Speaker 3
Their commute is still down the hall in many cases, right? But but I did hear something the other day. I was talking to a, chief communications officer at a at a pretty large multinational, and he kind of used this, this framework, which kind of ties into what what you what you said he said, you know, there's one part which is how we work.

00;15;24;04 - 00;15;47;06
Speaker 3
How do we show the value? What about external comms and how is it change? How about internal columns? How about integrated comms? Because anything you do internally is going to be externally. And really just talking about how the teams are getting bigger and more complex, and it's less about marketing versus com and who owns the data now it's very much about how we work.

00;15;47;08 - 00;16;10;22
Speaker 3
And then there's the what we work on, you know, and really the perspective that we're working on very big core critical strategic business issues. It's no longer being the order taker. What do we say. It's those two parts. How do we work. And then what are we working on and how do we do that as a core advisor to, you know, to the CEO and the other members of the executive team?

00;16;10;25 - 00;16;32;17
Speaker 3
And I guess that for me, is is interesting, even just thinking about your role with undergraduate in the graduate program, you know, how do you start building and then reinforcing that, that mindset that you always have to grow, you always have to develop and you always know? I think it'd be static. As a comms professional.

00;16;32;19 - 00;16;54;21
Speaker 4
It is, you know, you know, it's interesting. And I think you've probably seen this with maybe some of the young people at, G and S is, you know, most curriculums will have a campaigns class, right? Whether it's a Stratcom campaigns or a PR campaigns and, and, and occasionally you hear from a young person.

00;16;54;24 - 00;17;21;21
Speaker 4
Well, I already took the campaigns class. Why am I doing something that seems like a campaign professor in your public relations and advertising entrepreneurs class? And the answer to that is, well, we're in the business of problem solving and trying to come up with solutions. And, and I think the way to help develop future leaders is through hands on, practical and experiential, learning.

00;17;21;23 - 00;17;48;08
Speaker 4
And so it's it's something that not just at DePaul, but I think public relations faculty, we've gotten the message from hiring managers and senior leaders like yourself, Steve. And so we try to do a lot of projects that have real world clients and, who have problems that we can use communication to help solve. And they don't always have a clear answer or a clear path.

00;17;48;11 - 00;18;13;07
Speaker 4
Because we are in this, this age of, as you know, agility. And there's not always straight lines and there's not paint by paint by number answers to things. And so I think it's trying to help our younger talent become comfortable with being uncomfortable. Because that's just the, you talked about this, the velocity and pace of change.

00;18;13;09 - 00;18;41;04
Speaker 4
And, who would if think, think about the events of the last 36 months and anyone that says they could have predicted, you know, that sequence of events, this kid is kidding themselves. And so part of our job, where as we develop talent again, I really think is getting them comfortable, with the uncomfortable. And because generationally, I think sometimes, younger people might feel more comfortable with it.

00;18;41;04 - 00;18;49;27
Speaker 4
And probably older folks too, with having a really clear step, you know, a sequential flowing step of of how to how to march ahead.

00;18;49;27 - 00;19;16;25
Speaker 3
Well, and, you know, I think, I think where the challenge and the opportunity lies, you know, and, and what I would say to any of your students, whether they're just taking their first class or whether it's your, you know, seasoned people in your master's is embrace the ability to shape the future. You know, whether you want to call that transformation passion or or growth or growth and transformation.

00;19;16;27 - 00;19;43;28
Speaker 3
I think really for me, the mindset that I really look for, in, in the professionals and the mindset I try and give to my clients is think about your opportunity to shape the way a business operates and what it shows to the world, and how it shows up to the world, I think. I think that is really critical because if you think about it from that lens, it's yes, you need skill sets, yes, you need campaigns, yes, you need tactics.

00;19;44;01 - 00;19;55;04
Speaker 3
But ultimately your purpose as a communicator is. And how do you shape the way your company and your organization shows up in the world?

00;19;55;06 - 00;20;26;02
Speaker 4
I think that, I think that gets right back to the the title of this podcast and the idea of the actions and activities of an organization, either attracting stakeholders to it or repelling stakeholders and different ways. And I come back again that, perhaps there's no more powerful form of communication than actual communication grounded in actions and the alignments of, words and deeds.

00;20;26;04 - 00;20;57;09
Speaker 4
I read such an interesting point, right? I mean, think about right before Covid happened, what, a year or two before, you had all the CEOs of the Business Roundtable, right. Really kind of elevate in words, at least stakeholder capitalism. And this is how we're going to run our business. And so when we're looking towards the future now, I think young people look at it with, with apt, it's an interesting mix of optimism as well as in skepticism as a, as a generation.

00;20;57;12 - 00;21;05;24
Speaker 4
They're optimistic about the future, but they're skeptical then about will the people in power actually kind of practice, what they preach?

00;21;05;25 - 00;21;31;17
Speaker 3
Well, maybe, maybe, maybe our rallying cry is a bit of a difference. You know, John F Kennedy, you know, ask not what you do for your country. Maybe it should be ask how you can shape your business's future. You know, that that could that could be maybe our challenge for the next generation of comms. So as as I get ready for the podcast, I will say I was interested, professor.

00;21;31;17 - 00;22;00;07
Speaker 3
I went to rate my professor to see how Professor Reagan stacks up. Oh geez. And I gotta say, my friend, you have an average rating of awesome, awesome. Not not great, not awesome. And I could tell why, based on our conversation here, this is just the top quote, so I won't even say is random. It was just, you know, one that was here, but it said it said, Matt is by far one of my favorite professors.

00;22;00;13 - 00;22;23;14
Speaker 3
He arrives to class early. I like that, he gets to know his student and doesn't forget about you either. He's your pleasure to have as a professor and made the material interesting and accessible. He makes you work for the grade. As long as you do your best, you'll be rewarded. And he gives the best feedback. So anyway, I just wanted to say that I was really pleased.

00;22;23;14 - 00;22;31;29
Speaker 3
My friend. When I look through rate my Professor of Awesome, hopefully this podcast elevates out a little bit.

00;22;32;01 - 00;22;41;08
Speaker 4
I remember we have to grow the number of Ron Culp, and I want to grow the number of book adopters. I want you as my publicist for everything in the future.

00;22;41;10 - 00;23;05;17
Speaker 3
Well, we can definitely work on that. Well, I know we're going to have, I have future conversations. You know, we're planning to have additional, podcasts as we go through. What are the thing that, that, Professor Regus and I also talked about is, you know, we may pull some of these outstanding students to share perspectives of, different generations of communicators.

00;23;05;20 - 00;23;18;05
Speaker 3
So, really excited and, mad to have you on, on the podcast today. Is, is there any area we didn't cover that you think we, we need to hit before we wrap today?

00;23;18;07 - 00;23;41;10
Speaker 4
No, I, I would just say, Steve, that, the when you're surrounded by young people each day and have the pleasure to help develop these future leaders, there's a lot of reasons to be optimistic, about our business. And, you know, I really like the theme you said of Create the Future. You know, that you want to create for these organizations.

00;23;41;10 - 00;24;07;13
Speaker 4
Because I will say, as rising leaders, the employee does have more influence than at any time that I can remember to be able to have a voice internally and externally, in helping brands live up to their stated purpose and values. And my last thing is just, thanks, Steve, for always being someone that, that does invest and give back, to our, our profession.

00;24;07;13 - 00;24;13;05
Speaker 4
It's, it's appreciated. And it's it's, what makes us, a great calling.

00;24;13;07 - 00;24;27;12
Speaker 3
Well, I appreciate it. And as always, I appreciate the perspective. And, I'm sure the listeners are building brand gravity are going to be, excited to hear future conversations from us. Professor, thank you so much for your time today.

00;24;27;14 - 00;24;31;25
Speaker 4
Thank you.

00;24;31;27 - 00;25;00;28
Speaker 2
We are GM's business communications. We are a team of media strategists, storytellers and engagement experts who meet you at the intersection of business and communications. To learn more, visit communications.com. You're listening to Building Brand Gravity, Attracting People into Your Orbit, a business communications podcast. Keep connected with us by subscribing to the show in your favorite podcast player.

00;25;01;04 - 00;25;12;18
Speaker 2
If you like what you've heard, please rate the show that helps us to keep delivering the latest in industry influence. Thanks for listening. Until next time.