Building Brand Gravity Podcast

Steve Halsey: [00:00:00] The old silo model just, it just doesn't work anymore.

Megan Noel: Can we just have PR die? Because I think that term should be retired, killed off, disintegrated. It, it, it should go away.

Anne Green: No one's harder than our own folks for the best reasons. These are skeptical folks, type A, working hard, heads down on clients.

Megan Noel: The point about brand refreshes, we know from doing them that a big part of them fail.

Steve Halsey: We are increasingly in a zero-click environment, and people may not go directly to a website and review somebody's carefully crafted material. They may simply ask, or they may just get served a summation

Megan Noel: Things like press releases that perhaps had gone by the wayside are now back.

Steve Halsey: Welcome to Building Brand Gravity. I'm [00:01:00] Steve Halsey

Anne Green: And I'm Ann Green

Steve Halsey: And today we're talking about brand, but maybe not brand in the way that most people default to thinking about it. Because when people hear the word brand, they often think first, Ann, about the external expression, the name, the logo, the visual identity, the website, the campaign, the launch moment, all that fun stuff.

And it matters of course, but increasingly you and I are seeing that the work of actually building a brand, and especially relaunching or reintroducing one, is much more operational, much more cross-functional, and much more deeply connected to trust these days than perhaps it once appeared from the outside.

Anne Green: Oh, I completely agree, Steve, and that's why I'm so excited for today's conversation that we're gonna be sharing. I recently had the chance to speak with Megan Noel. She is chief corporate affairs officer at Covista. And Covista is a new brand, and Megan's [00:02:00] been right there in the middle of the work of helping to bring that identity to life.

And what I appreciated so much about the conversation, Steve, is we didn't talk about brand as a surface level exercise. We really talked about it as an enterprise level undertaking, and it's, um, one that really requires corporate affairs, marketing, comms, HR, internal teams, business leaders, I mean, pretty much every major partner to be aligned around what the organization is, what it promises, and how it earns belief from the people who matter most, whether inside or outside the walls.

Steve Halsey: You know, and that is such an important distinction because the shorthand is still often that brand, quote-unquote, "belongs to marketing," even though chief communications and chief corporate affairs officers are owning the corporate brand more and more these days. And to be clear, marketing is obviously essential to building a brand at both the product and corporate levels.

But when brand is treated only as a product or marketing functions, I think that's when [00:03:00] organizations miss the bigger picture. They can miss the connection to reputation, to culture, to employee understanding, to stakeholder trust, to public affairs, to risk. I could go on and on, but ultimately to leadership behavior

Anne Green: Yeah, and that's one of the pieces, you know, relative to this conversation that I think you and I have watched over the years, and I've been thinking a lot about in the context of this discussion today.

So we know a brand launch is just one small piece of a larger and ongoing effort. And, and I think what I'm mulling over most now is a brand has to be contextualized. It has to be made legible so stakeholders can really understand it, and even more important, find their own ways into it to personally connect.

And it has to have a meaning that is both believed but also believable, and that has to be delivered across the organization. And this means employees need to know what the impact is to their actual day-to-day work. Leaders need to understand how it connects to [00:04:00] business strategy. External stakeholders need to see evidence that a brand promise is real in every single touchpoint, and the organization needs to have enough internal coherence that the experience matches the expression in every channel and at every touchpoint.

And that is way harder, I think we, we acknowledge, Steve, than writing a positioning statement or even launching a new visual identity.

Steve Halsey: Yeah, I think it, I think it certainly is. And, and this connects to something we've been talking about often on this podcast this year, which is the idea of narrative as an operating system.

And we see that when a narrative is strong, it gives the organization a way to make choices. It helps people understand what matters, what the company stands for, where it's going, and just how to explain that in a consistent manner But conversely, when the narrative is weak or when brand is fragmented across functions, every team can end up telling a slightly different story.

Marketing says one [00:05:00] thing, communication says another, leaders emphasize something else, and in that situation, employees are left in the situation of trying to interpret it all on their own, and the brand loses impact in that case. And then the market gets the muddled signal. And, and this is especially true today in the age of AI discovery, as we've been talking about.

Anne Green: Yeah, it's interesting. Today I've just been working on a project where we're trying to apply that lens of corporate as a, as a, you know, operating narr- narrative, as an operating system for an organization that is feeling fragmented that way. And that, I think, is where corporate affairs can play such a powerful role.

You know, one of the things that Megan and I discuss is how the function is actually sometimes misunderstood, especially chief corporate affairs officer, which is a less known title to some. And I think the issue is people still say public relations as a shorthand for our field, you know, and I know where that came from historically.

They're often thinking of media relations, which in reality the [00:06:00] remit of communications is so much broader. It's truly amazing in its breadth, and frankly, that's been true for a long time, uh, I mean, as long as you and I have been in the field now, Steve, which is over 30 years. So corporate affairs and communications leaders are typically working at that intersection of reputation, stakeholder engagement, employee understanding, executive positioning, public policy, issues management, culture, risk, trust, and ultimately, I think one of the most important is business impact.

That is a super wide lens. And in a moment where organizations are under more scrutiny from more stakeholders, that wide lens is not a nice to have. It's really, really necessary.

Steve Halsey: Yeah, and that also means that the old silo model just, it just doesn't work anymore You know, brand obviously has a C-suite steward, but it does not, and, and I believe it should not, just live in one department.

Just like reputation does not live in one department, trust does not live in one department, and as we all know, risk [00:07:00] certainly does not stay contained nice and neatly within one department. So the work really requires a much more matrixed approach. And, and corporate affairs, they have to partner with marketing.

Marketing has to partner with HR and people team. Internal communications has to be connected to external communications, legal, policy, operations, digital sales, IT. I mean, when you think about all these components, and the senior-most leadership, they all have a role to play here.

Anne Green: Yeah, I wanna sit on this internal piece for a minute there too, because I, I think when you and I both started in the agency world, Steve, internal communications was often treated as secondary to the external push.

You'd launch something externally, and of course employees would be informed. And, and you know, sometimes it worked better than others. Some, some folks took it really seriously from the beginning. But the real attention and the real gravitational pull was usually on the marketplace, the media investors, customers, policy makers, whoever those external [00:08:00] audiences might be.

I think that narrow view of internal comms has changed, or at least it should have changed, because employees are not a secondary audience. You know, you've heard my metaphor, Steve, the drop of water falls in the pond, and that first ring that radiates outward is your own people. They are the carriers of the brand.

They're the interpreters of the brand. And in many ways, they are the first test of whether a brand is credible.

Steve Halsey: You know, and that's, that's such a good point. I mean, based on experience, if employees do not understand the story or if they don't believe the story, it becomes very difficult for the outside world to believe it.

So you really have to succeed first internally with the brand before you can go externally. And then you've got this AI dimension that raises the stakes even further. I mean, we've talked about it before, how generative AI and search are just changing the way that people encounter brands. I mean, we are increasingly in a zero-click environment And people may not [00:09:00] go directly to a website and review somebody's carefully crafted material.

They may simply ask, or they may just get served a summation of what a company does, what it stands for, whether it's trustworthy, and what its reputation is. So in a AI platform, or just Google search for that matter, it's simply serving up a summary.

Anne Green: Yeah, and that means, um ... And we've been talking about this a lot, both with our, you know, service teams, our digital teams.

That story of the brand, the clarity around it, has to be both human readable and machine readable. It's not the first time we've been talking about this, but it's as salient as ever. So it's not enough for the story to live in a launch deck or, you know, a m- you know, a campaign platform. It has to be expressed consistently across the digital footprint.

It has to show up in leadership content and employee communications and in media coverage of course, and in own channels, and when your leaders are out speaking, thought leadership and videos, and basically that broader ecosystem of signals [00:10:00] that so clearly, and we can really document this, shape how a company is understood today.

And when that doesn't happen, and we're seeing this all over the place, the system, so to speak, fills in the blanks for you.

Steve Halsey: Yeah, and that, that really brings us back to, I, I think the importance of partnership. You know, a strong brand today requires the creativity and market orientation of marketing of course, but it also requires the stakeholder lens and the reputation discipline that comes from corporate affairs.

It requires the support of sales, it requires the credibility that comes from employee engagement, and it really requires leadership alignment so that the organization is not just saying something compelling, but as you know, Anne, they're actually operating in a way that supports the promise.

Anne Green: Yeah, I think that's a core to me.

We all know a brand is not simply what an organization says about itself, but it's that cumulative effect of what people experience in the real world or digitally, what they hear, what they find, what [00:11:00] they believe, and whether the organization behaves consistently over time, which is a callback to our wonderful Building Brand Gravity with Bradley Akabiro, who's talking about you gotta know where you stand to stand there, so folks should check out that episode.

But whether you're launching or relaunching a brand, or simply seeking to bring the brand you have today more to life, I think the work is to create the identity and then create the conditions for that identity to be understood and trusted, and then frankly, to ensure that that work never stops.

Steve Halsey: Yeah, I think, I think that's very well said, Ann.

And to me it seems like the perfect setup for your conversation with Megan because she has been working directly that intersection we're talking about of corporate affairs, brand, internal alignment, marketing partnership, and stakeholder trust.

Anne Green: Yeah, she really has. I've known her for over a decade now, and she brings such thoughtful insights to the evolving role of corporate affairs and what it takes to lead this work inside a complex organization.

She and I are both committed to the idea of working [00:12:00] in a matrix. The other thing I love is she has a lot of perspective on career development in this field because she's been both quite a long time on the agency side and then on the in-house corporate side. And, which was very nice, she was recently included among the 2026 PRWeek Women of Distinction honorees, which is a great honor and one I'm very happy to celebrate with her.

So with that, let's hear my conversation with Megan Noel. I'm particularly thrilled to have Megan Noel on the podcast today. Hi, Megan.

Megan Noel: Hi, Anne.

Anne Green: Yeah, we've known each other now over 10 years. It feels like longer in the best way, but I'm gonna ask you to tell a little about your role, but just to give our listeners some context, you've been on the agency side at Edelman for almost 10 years, the start of your career, tons of interesting clients.

You... People can check you out on LinkedIn. But it was during your time at PWC where you had a huge impact on really, I think, um, transforming the communications function there for a decade, and most recently senior managing [00:13:00] director and leader of US and Mexico Communications and Corporate Affairs. But today you've got that chief corporate affairs officer role at Covista, and that's part of what we'll talk about today, but welcome again.

And I guess I'd-- I would kick off to say not every single person is familiar with the chief corporate affairs officer role. I'd love to give you some con- to get some context on that, 'cause I think people understand CCOs, CMOs, but tell me a bit about that role from your perspective and, and how you're playing it currently.

Megan Noel: Yeah, it's such a good question, and it's one that I get a lot. Um, it is still an emerging role within Fortune 1000 companies. Um, essentially, it's a CCO plus role. Um, for me at Covista, it incorporates, uh, communications, investor relations, government relations and public policy and public affairs, impact and sustainability, thought leadership, brand, [00:14:00] um, and alumni, and so it's a, a really fulsome role.

The reason that we put all of these disparate functions together at Covista is because Steve Beard, our CEO, wanted all the storytellers to sit together. So whether you're communicating to the media or employees or policymakers or investors, it's an opportunity for us to tell a consistent story and narrative across all of our stakeholders and all of our audiences.

We are starting to see the role pop up more in Fortune 1000 companies, and I think, um, one, I'm just excited to see that, uh, especially I think it was more prevalent in the UK or in European, um, companies, uh, but we're seeing it more pop up in US companies. And I'm excited to see that because it's a recognition at the highest levels with CEOs and boards that storytelling is a C-suite role and that [00:15:00] storytelling to all of our stakeholders is something that is critically important to the business.

Anne Green: I think that's a very interesting way to frame it. And, um, you know, in some ways it's so funny, Megan, sometimes it almost feels like saying storytelling is a cliche, but it's ac- it's actually so, so critical. And framing, 'cause when you went through the list of everything that you're engaged with, responsible for, it's a big list.

But I can see how, like you said, that corporate narrative, the story is embedded everywhere within those roles.

Megan Noel: Yeah, um, Sally Susman, who was the chief corporate affairs officer at Pfizer for a very long time, probably one of the pioneers of the, that type of role and, and in the profession, she wrote a book and she has been on this road for a while and saying, "Storytelling is a skill, and it is a skill that you have to develop, hone in, cultivate, refine."

And, um, by bringing disparate functions together, there's a [00:16:00] recognition that storytelling is something that we have to get right, especially today and in, in a world where audiences, the way they get their information is hyper-fragmented, trust is low, um, people are getting their news from social influencers more than they're getting it from top-tier media.

And so the way in which we effectively tell our stories or not can either drive growth, drive our reputation, or not. So it, it is something that I think is increasingly recognized, um, as a, as a skill and a specialized skill.

Anne Green: It's interesting, my colleague Steve Halsey, our chief growth officer who hosts the podcast with me, we've been talking a lot about, um, this concept that he coined that I, I, I think it's not, you know, other people think about this too, but he calls it a narrative as the operating system of a company.

That it's not just, oh, a message is something I've put on a messaging document for you to prepare for a given interview. It's just [00:17:00] what is that spine that goes through everything, or whatever metaphor you want, that is the operating system, and how does that narrative manifest itself into... Does that resonate with you at all in terms of how you're framing this, Meaghan?

Megan Noel: It does, and I think, I know we'll talk about this a little later, but I think with the advent of AEO and AIO, that consistent storytelling is even more important because that's what the algorithms are using to reward companies that are doing that. And so, um, it, it's been something that we have spent a lot of time at Covista really trying to stitch together a consistent story across all of our stakeholders, so ultimately we can build a brand that's trustworthy and that's tackling business and societal issues at the same time.

Anne Green: Well, let's get into Covista. This is a new brand. It's a, it's a v- it's a long existing entity and an important one. For those that don't know, you know, I've done a lot of work in the healthcare space over the last few decades, and health [00:18:00] workforce education in all of its, all of the roles, is absolutely critical.

But you got to play a part in conceiving and launching and partnering on creating a new brand. So tell me more about the background of how you approached it, and obviously what Covista is just, or Covista, so that people have grounding in, in what the entity is.

Megan Noel: Yeah. It was, in fact, it was one of the reasons why I, I was so attracted to this role.

Um, let, let me step back and give you a little bit of history. Um, our prior name was Adtalem Global Education. It was a proprietary and diversified higher education organization. So there was, we had a Brazil business, we had a financial services business, we had a little bit of a healthcare business. Um, over time, as Steve Beard took on the role of CEO, he made, um, an investment in Walden, which is the third largest nursing school in the country, the second-largest education school in the country.

We made some divestitures, and we ended up with an organization, um, [00:19:00] between our five institutions that was 90-plus percent focused on healthcare education. Yet our brand and our positioning in the marketplace Had not caught up to where we were as a company. And so the challenge and opportunity in building the Covisint brand was a couple fold.

One, was to create a brand positioning that reflected both the business and societal challenge of tackling the healthcare workforce shortage at scale meant, and that we could be a big part of that. Second, was to create an employer brand in the marketplace that would retain the amazing talent that we have.

We have 10,000 colleagues and faculty across the US. Um, and also be one that could be a talent attractor and bring in new and different talent. And third, is to create an enterprise brand that could sit alongside our institution brands and be a powerful force in the marketplace. Think about the [00:20:00] way other holding companies like Unilever or P&G have made that transformation of not only having powerful consumer brands, but also having a powerful enterprise brand that can sit behind and, and stitch all of it together.

So, so with that challenge, that was, um, a place for us to take a look at, how do we do this that can really hit on all of those different pillars and create a big mark in, i- in the environment? And typically, Anne, that's something that's given to the CMO to do. And yet, uh, Steve was, again, he's, he's, uh, so deliberate as a CEO.

He gave that as, uh, an opportunity for both me as the CCAO and the CMO to partner on to bring to life together. So we created the name, the brand positioning, um, the, the-- We spent more time than I can count on the, the colors, which are so important. Um, but equally, [00:21:00] we did the work behind the, uh, the visual identity.

We refreshed our purpose, vision, and values. We created an employee value proposition. We had never had one before, right? And we started to bring an impact commitment to life to be able to underscore that we're here to drive growth in the marketplace, but also we're here to play a meaningful role in tackling that healthcare workforce shortage at scale in a, in a big societal way.

So it, it's been, um, a career-defining assignment, um, and one that I have thoroughly enjoyed.

Anne Green: It, it was great to see this unfold. You know, I'd known you had taken the role and said, "Oh, this is interesting," and then watched this unfold and with great interest. And, um, you're absolutely right. You know, first of all, branding, rebrands from the outside are often not well understood, even by the employees of an organization.

It's easy to pick on a new name or just say, "Oh, what is that?" I remember [00:22:00] when Verizon first launched, when Accenture first launched, you know, these are names that are so common now, but it was, you know, it was easy to poke fun when you first see it or, oh, what does that mean? But you're so right that to do it fully, and it sounds like you have, there's so many pieces and parts.

And I loved what you said about that equal partnership with your marketing counterpart, 'cause you're absolutely right. You know, one of my clients used to be Siegel and Gale back in the day, and it was often the marketing team that would work with them. So I would think that you feel this work can't and shouldn't be done in a silo.

What is your point of view why that partnership's so critical today?

Megan Noel: Yeah. L- let me first just pick up before I answer your question around the point about brand refreshes. We know from doing them that a big part of them fail. So there's a lot of risk in doing brand refreshes, and when we were embarking on this journey, a lot of the data was the best that you can get to is neutral, and neutral is not [00:23:00] what I strive for.

Um, and I, uh, I-- being a competitive person and being someone that also wants to drive both business and societal good, I was like, "I know we can do better than neutral." But the, the cards are stacked against you, right? People are skeptical. Everybody has an opinion. Everybody can be a keyboard warrior and, and, and put their opinion out there for those to opine on.

Um, and we had a diverse stakeholder set, right? We had internal stakeholders. We had diverse external stakeholders. We're a regulated business, and so we had to consider that. We are focused in the US, but we have students coming from around the world, and so we had to be globally conscious while US-centric.

Um, so there was a lot of variables to think about, and, um, that I think made the challenge even more great when you are able to launch and there's positive receptivity in the marketplace from stakeholders. Um, and, and so that's something that I just think as [00:24:00] anyone that is going to embark on this, either as a, a par- a part of their career or, um, a part of their, uh, an assignment within their portfolio, um, to really think about the brand risk but also the brand opportunities that are a part of this.

Anne Green: Which areas do you feel, based on the research and your own assessment and knowledge and those of your colleagues, presented the greatest risk? Is it those internal stakeholders and the diversity of them coming along for the ride? Is it, is it really everything inside and outside?

Megan Noel: I had the privilege at PwC to, as part of my role, to oversee change management, and that was, um, so enlightening in so many ways because you learn that people hate change.

Doesn't mean if they don't-- Even if they don't like the status quo, they hate change more, right? And so that is the biggest risk is whether you like it or not, it's familiar. You understand it. You know how to navigate it. In some instances, folks say, "Well, I was just starting to get the Adtalem [00:25:00] brand out in the marketplace, and now we're gonna change it all again?"

Um, and, and so to get people over the mindset shift around the change and get people to understand the why, and that why is gonna look different for all different types of stakeholders- Is the biggest hurdle that you need to do. And, um, the opportunity there is if you get your employees bought in first, then they can become ambassadors with all the rest of the stakeholders, um, to help drive that change.

But if they aren't bought in, they also can be the biggest detractor. So we knew when we were embarking on this, we had to do a heavy buy-in around our employee population, especially those who may say, "Gosh, I sit in this holding company, but I identify with the institution of which I'm a part of. Why should I even care about this holding company over here?

And [00:26:00] why should I have any sort of brand affinity to that?" And so to be able to, uh, get people to understand that why and that change And then to build that affinity even before we launched was an important, um, step along the way to making this a success.

Anne Green: This so ties to-- I just had a conversation with David Grossman, whose recent book, "The Heart Work of Modern Leadership," just came out, and there's a whole connection to this, listeners.

You know, j-j- listen to that one, come back to this one, tie it together. But let's go back then. So you know the challenge, and you know we have to land this Y, and it's gonna be multifaceted work, and we want this to be the upside, not just neutral or worse . And you're partnering with your marketing counterpart.

Why is that partnership important, and how do you-- I think for some people, working across a matrix is difficult. It's much easier to... They don't love being in a silo, but it's a lot easier sometimes when you're kind of running your own world. What was the importance of working [00:27:00] across that, and what are some of the things that you observed as you did it?

Megan Noel: I've been really blessed throughout my career in my in-house roles that marketing has always been a peer and an equal partner. I know that's not the case, and I know that that, um, in, in saying that, that is a luxury that not every organization, whether you're a CCO or a CCAO have. But in, in that structure, the CMOs have become some of my best friends at the organization, some of my biggest challengers within the organization, and ones that I have learned the most from.

I think the communications function and the corporate affairs function can learn a lot from the marketing function. I equally know that the marketing function can learn a lot from us. So when you approach it from a point of learning and curiosity, and knowing that you're coming at it with slightly different perspectives but with the same end goal in mind, that's when the best work happens, even if there's some [00:28:00] tough conversations, some tension points along the way.

The CMO that I worked with on this one was super creative, and he could be able to push the limits on creativity that frankly I couldn't e-ever get to. I am very good at operationalizing, um, the work. And so together, we were able to create an amazing creative product, but also one that can flow through the organization and inside and outside seamlessly.

And so by, by using that partnership together, we were able to create magic. Um, and so I think you should learn and embrace a lot from the marketing organization. Uh, I also think- For those of us sitting in communications roles and corporate affairs roles, you have to understand that success comes from integration and partnership, and that is a big part of the job.

Yes, it's easy to sit in silos, but you will [00:29:00] not be successful. Said differently, you probably won't have a job, um, because success is being able to partner closely with your peers across the business, with your peers across finance, HR. You have to be dangerous enough, especially in my role, where, um, I'm a peer to the business leaders, I'm a peer to finance and HR and marketing.

I have to understand the business segments and their strategy enough to be dangerous and walk into that room. I have to understand our employee engagement strategy and our talent strategy to go toe-to-toe with our HR leader. I have to understand our, our growth strategy and our AI strategy in order to go toe-to-toe with our CMO and our CDO.

Um, and I have to know the numbers enough to be able to sit down and have an intellectual and thoughtful conversation with our CEO-- our CFO, excuse me, and then stitch it all together to have conversations with our [00:30:00] CEO. And so working within a matrix organization is absolutely critical, and I think that has made me, um, more curious about the business, and it has forced me to lean in to understand avenues of our business that I would have not thought that I would have had to understand, um, as deeply as I do in order to be successful at the role.

Anne Green: I couldn't co-sign hard enough on this conversation. Um, you know, you and I have both worked with so many organizations across our career. I've been thirty-four years on the agency side, and I've had just immense privilege to work with hundreds of clients across sectors, many different sizes. And there's so many wonderful organizations out there, and the people are wonderful, but we're also in those normal human systems and mindsets that can hold us back in ways we don't even see.

And like I said, I find working in a more matrixed environment so [00:31:00] wonderful and inspiring. It, it really gives me energy, but it takes a lot of that emotional intelligence and human skill to relate to each other, and also the rigor and the curiosity, pushing yourself to learn and to be bold, to build relationships, though.

I mean, communications folks know how to do this, but it is just interesting because as, as I was alluding before, I find humans find it as much as we chafe being in a silo, that hierarchy can be a little bit more legible. And there's a normal human thing of us versus them, like, "This is our world. What are you doing?"

You know? And that, that's a normal thing. But that, that's actually something that brings me to my next question for you because The idea of what is communications, how we widen our lens as we describe our function and our roles, and as you try to translate that to others, picking up on something you said, I've worked with marketers and advertising agencies and others for years.

There is so much shared perspective and language, but there are nuances, turns of the [00:32:00] dial that can be difficult to translate, where you don't even know you're not speaking the same conversation quite. So public relations is how we used to be known, right? And think it's broader than that. So what is your take on what is this role today?

What is communications today to you, Megan? How is it understood? How is it misunderstood?

Megan Noel: Can we just have PR die? Because I think that term should be retired, um, killed off, disintegrated. It, it, it should go away. I actually absolutely loathe that word public relations. I think it, um, doesn't reflect the totality, the intellect, the evolution of where our profession has gone and, um, the role that we play in supporting the business in, in a really fulsome way.

And so when I hear that, I'm saddened by [00:33:00] it. I also look to correct people. Um, and, and I think over time, uh, that, that, that has happened. I'll, I'll give you an example of this. When I took on the role at, at PWC, I think you know this, we were the PR department, and I called my boss at the time and I said, "I, I have to change the name to communications."

And we had a, a, a really big back and forth around that, and he was like, "Why? Why, why? We-- you guys do press." And I was like, "But we don't just do press. We connect the dots. We reconcile diverse opinions We help build and protect the brand in the marketplace. At that point, we were on the precipice of social media, right?

And so we were starting to embark on new tools and new channels and be on the frontier of how people were communicating. And, and so I said it, it does the team a disservice [00:34:00] internally and externally just to put us in this, this bucket. And I got him there, and we changed the name. Um, and while the name changes seem just, just that, is just, it's, it's a, it's a, uh, identity shift, it created an entire perception shift within the organization that we were seen differently, we were thought of differently in the organization, and more, most importantly, Anne, we were valued differently in an entirely g- new level.

It wasn't just, "We're gonna call Megan and her team when we've made a decision, and they'll put out a press release, or they'll call the press." It was more that we're gonna engage communications in a conversation, and the risks and opportunities around that decision and how it impacts our stakeholders.

And so similar to where we're having brand conversations at the enterprise and organizational level, for our profession, the identity shift is so important [00:35:00] and, and I continue to hope that we get sharper on how we communicate, um, that today internally and externally.

Anne Green: You know, when I took over the CEO role here at GNS, and now we've got two agencies under our integrated marketing communications group brand, that idea of integrated marketing communications was to me really important because we do many different things, including things that are understood as marketing, advertising, et cetera.

And it, and I wonder sometimes, you know... And, and it's interesting, I've been very involved with the PR council on the agency side. I've been on the board. Um, there's a heritage to understanding public relations as kind of a unique field. But at the same time, I've wondered, it sounds so silly, but I've wondered sometimes that the initials PR also being press release is somehow

It's just, it, it sucks you into this vortex of diminishment sometimes. So, and it's been exciting. We're gonna get to AI in a moment to sort of see how discovery and search is changing and what, how that changes it. But if there was one thing that, [00:36:00] you know, you've articulated so much about the richness of what is communications today, which I very much agree with.

What is one thing that you would encourage corporate peers at any organization, not just Covista, to understand about what communications is today?

Megan Noel: Yeah, I'm, uh, if I was talking to business leaders, um, uh, who were still trying to understand and grapple with the evolution of the function, I, I would tell them a couple things.

First and foremost is that we're beyond press releases or PR, and that we are really, um, the, the dot connector and the integrator, um, within and throughout an organization across all of our different audiences. Um, second is that to see us as a business partner first and a storyteller second, right? Going back to the conversation around we have to understand the business enough, a big part of where I think this profession has really evolved and has been c- uh, [00:37:00] front and center at conversations within the CCO and CCAO community over the past several years is heightening and deepening our business acumen And, um, if we are able to do that, then we are able to be true business partners to the organization and help them reach their employee engagement goals, or help them reach their growth goals, or help them reach their reputation goals, or help protect them from regulatory pressures that are happening.

And so it just changes the whole vernacular, um, and I think that makes us a better partner to the business. Uh, and so that's what I would, I would say to those folks who still maybe see something in the profession that is outdated. That said, the business leaders that I have encountered and work for, and maybe that's not by accident, the CEOs that I've worked for deeply believe in, in the profession and the power of the profession to do amazing [00:38:00] work.

I've been so lucky. I've worked for four very different CEOs, but the red thread throughout each of them is that they believed in the power of that, of this function beyond just the media and press releases.

Anne Green: And I tell-- It's wonderful to hear, and they're certainly out there and growing. I do think that there's such a body of evidence that's coming from all sides about what are the skill sets needed for effective leadership today.

I remember a few years ago, Harvard Business Review did a whole package on what is the CEO of today, you know, of tomorrow, and things like emotional intelligence, ability to create followership, ability to speak and connect with multiple stakeholders, which is not all about performance. You know, Megan, you do a lot of training of executives over the years.

You know that's a specialty of mine, and it's far more than just, "Oh, I know how to plant and, and stand and project." You know, it's, it's so much about how they bring themselves to it. The other thing that's so interesting is in this [00:39:00] world today, you know, you see entities like Gartner reporting on, hey, as AI shifts workflows and workforce, things like sentiment, understanding human connection, counsel, crisis counsel, you know, interpretation, uh, dot connecting, a lot of those human skills which are so central to the communications function are going to be more important and not commodity.

So I think those are the types of things that That I'm really looking at. Before we get into the AI of it all, which we have to, one area of communications that I've always thought a lot about, but I felt it was highly undervalued, especially, you know, 35 years ago when I entered the agency world, was this idea of internal communications.

It was often siloed off, perhaps owned by our colleagues in HR, which is very important, this incredible partnership. My chief people officer and I are joined at the hip in our work. But, or it was sort of a, quote unquote, "backwater" [00:40:00] of comms compared to, like, if you're running around at an Edelman or a Burson-Marsteller, it's like, "I'm crisis.

I'm corporate." What is your take on those internal audiences and the importance of that to your role today?

Megan Noel: I'm thrilled that internal comms is finally having its heyday. Um, you know, I grew up on the external side, and so I deeply understand and value and have experience in creating a brand and a reputation for external audiences.

Um, and l- let me tell you a little story a- about this and wh- what, why I think it's so important. I was... When I was at PwC, I had come in through the external route. I, I-- By the time I got done with that job or th- th- when I left PwC, I had every job on that team, but I was coming up through the ranks on the external side.

And when I had gotten to the external comms leader, we, uh, it was a- around 2020, my CEO, uh, Tim Ryan at the time, um, called me. We had just entered [00:41:00] into the pandemic. We, sort of early days and didn't know, right, how long this thing was going to last, um, what the impact it was going to be on our internal stakeholders, our clients, the, you know, organizations writ large.

And when you get a call from your CEO with no, little to no context, um, most people get a little scared, a little worried, like, "Okay, what, what, what's gonna happen here, and, and how is this gonna play out?" And he calls me in early spring, and he said, "Megan We, we don't know how long this pandemic is going to last.

The real challenge, right? We have 100,000 people within PwC all across the United States and, and even more that spread across our acceleration centers globally. And a big part of what I wanna be able to do is continue to do work for our clients. We n- we are-- we need to be there for our clients, but we also need to be there for our people.

So I'm nodding along and I'm like, [00:42:00] "Yes, yes, of course, of course, this all makes complete sense." And he said, "With that, I need a real partner to help me continue to rally our people during this critical time, and someone that is going to take storytelling and stakeholder management and thoughtfulness to what we've done externally and bring that inside, um, and navigate a change that we don't know quite where we're going just yet," right?

And it was a challenge that I was absolutely thrilled to take on, but also really nervous too, right? At the same time, he had said, "We're gonna go embark on a ton of changes, and so the internal comms and the change management side of the role need to go hand in glove." I had no change management experience

So to take that on and to lead an organization during the pandemic, to lead them through a [00:43:00] massive strategy change, to lead them through major technology changes, and, and PwC did a brand change at that same time, was, uh, a- another career-defining move of, of, I, I know will be of, of my entire career. Um, but the, what that taught me is the importance of h- how to engage and bring employees along, that it's not just operational comms.

There's things that employees need to know to do their job. But to your point about leadership and inspiration, it's the empathy, it's the engagement, it's how you reach your employees. We're now dealing with ch- uh, four generations in the workforce, and they all get their information and want their information in a different way.

It's how to work within matrices and understand how to communicate in pockets that will help managers who are on the front lines be successful. So all of those skills are so critical to [00:44:00] building the right toolbox for a communicator and help us as business leaders really help and support the business during times of important change.

Anne Green: It's such a great story and, um, you know, h- knowing Tim Ryan's leadership and what every company was facing at that moment, 2020 was a real crucible in terms of, I think, organizations understanding audiences a little differently, knowing employees are important and those inner rings of connection, but looking at it a bit differently.

And, you know, it, it's, it's funny, too, I, I joke being in an agency environment, I've started to say some, to some of my leaders, 'cause we're going through all kinds of change in a very positive way in order to pivot and continue evolving in a landscape that's changing fast and needs to under a lot of pressure.

W- workers are under so much psychological and real pressure today. I mean, it's a tough world out there in that way. But, you know, people want to try new things, but as you say, change [00:45:00] is hard. Even something that they didn't like before, if you're gonna change it, it's, it's tough. And I joke with my leaders, say, "Hey, we- work on some tough challenges for our clients in reaching audiences that are hard to reach, but no one's harder than our own folks, for the best reasons.

These are skeptical folks, Type A, working hard, heads down on clients. So I, I love hearing what you're saying about this and just reflecting on those moments of your career that have felt like a real step change forward and expansion. And keeping on the employees for a moment, let's use that as a way to think about AI.

We are in the midst of one of the greatest changes, I think, that we'll see in our lifetimes. I mean, I don't think that's an exaggeration. And the technological changes is, the pace of it is blistering. I think that as one way in, the workforce, the pressure on it, and the psychological pressure, and the questions about it are a lot.

And then the adoption is key. And I watched you at PwC start to walk that adoption [00:46:00] path- Yeah ... and start to help that with your own team and then with others. Now you're part of an ecosystem that has to scale that in much bigger ways and in, uh, diverse environments. But how do you look at this big thing called AI as it's transforming our field?

If you have to step back, like, how do you get your hands around what it means, what the top things you're thinking about, and how it's shifting the focus for you?

Megan Noel: I think we started a couple years ago when A, when AI started to come to the forefront, and we were thinking about it as a productivity and efficiency and a scale tool.

And it absolutely is. I think if you ask many communications corporate affairs departments now, they are using AI as an opportunity to do, ma- create content more quickly, to A/B test it, um, uh, better, as well as do, um, uh, personalization at scale. And so it, it absolutely is an efficiency and productivity tool.

It [00:47:00] also is a, a co-creator of thoughts and someone to bounce ideas off of in a really safe and iterative, very quickly, um, way. I think now organizations are turning to the AI search engines and the answer engine economy and saying, "Wow, regardless of which tool that you are using, these platforms are spitting out information that people are making real decisions off of.

Which vacation do I go on? Which car do I buy? Which university do I attend," right? These are, these are major decisions that people are using AI to help them think through. And so as businesses and organizations are thinking through how to influence in the right way, we can't forget that AI is playing a big role in that influencing decision.

And yet there's a lot of [00:48:00] inputs that go into that, right? Things like press releases that perhaps had gone by the wayside are now back and really a valuable tool to influence the AI engines. Things like Wikipedia are increasingly important as an influencing tool. Certain media outlets. I can go on and on and on But the, the real opportunity as someone is thinking through this is how do we create the right ecosystem that will flood these platforms in the right way to give consumers, stakeholders the right information that they need at their fingertips, and ones that we want them to know about in our organization.

It's hyper-personalization at scale. I think that is a fascinating challenge for us, right? I've been in the profession for 20 years. I'm learning this alongside our most junior folks, right? And so talk about democratization of learning. [00:49:00] They may get it more quickly than me, which I hope they do. That's awesome, right?

Uh, but this is one where years of experience and skill doesn't give you the leg up. We're all learning this together, and so I, I've loved learning. Curiosity and learning are a big part of any-- You know, you take leadership profiles, and that's... Oh, I always get that as, um, I'm a big learner. I'm a big, uh, sort of focused on curiosity, and so I think this is fascinating, but it's also a huge challenge as we're trying to shape reputation, um, for organizations.

Anne Green: Yeah. It's such a multi-layered thing and, and how on the flip side of the coin, AI is, you know, fuels misinformation, disinformation at scale. It's just, there's a whole ecosystem to balance, and it's gonna be so interesting to see. I love your thoughts about how do we, yes, gain efficiency, gain productivity, but also increase our speed to strategy, sharpen ourselves, learn faster, get to the insights faster.

I think that's where experience can [00:50:00] still help mentor to say, "Hey, I can gut check what I'm seeing." But then how do we understand, again, that narrative is an operating system, that's an ecosystem, and you've got a lot of stakeholders out there you've gotta share that message with, you know? And it's a, it's an interesting time to build, build that ecosystem out and have the why behind it even clearer, I think.

Megan Noel: I also would say it's creating a, a ton of new jobs and new opportunities. We're hiring for AI, um, embedded in roles. We're also hiring specialists. And so while there may be a efficiency gain in the types of content creation skills that we used to spend a lot of time on, it's also creating new pathways for employment, um, within our profession that w-wasn't there even just one or two years ago.

And so, uh, I always see these disruptive moments as g- and in the end, going to push us forward. It may [00:51:00] be two steps forward, one step back, two steps, but that's progress still, right? We're still getting 50% of the way- Uh, further than we had before. I also think this is one where the profession has an opportunity to continue to learn from marketing and what it's doing, and be a collaborator with marketing as you go forth, because what the AI search engines are doing is democratizing content.

Just as much as you're getting it from the media, you're getting great information from our website, you're getting great information from newsrooms. And so how do we create a new type of ecosystem that's working together? It requires even closer partnership with marketing than it had ever been before.

Anne Green: Absolutely. And from some of our marketing counterparts and clients, you know, paid is changing. The impacts of paid digital, it's changing, and they're very wary of that as well. And I think that's where, again, we've got to bring those clicks of the dial where we may have those different perspectives. That becomes so much more powerful when they're put together.

So [00:52:00] we d- in the last couple minutes, I w- wanna just hit you with a few sort of fun questions and, you know, hopefully those who listen, we have a wide range of listeners, some younger and older in their career in different places, and I know you've got a lot of wisdom to share. So you've been both agency and corporate side of the house.

I am, as Kim Sample once said from PR Council, an agency animal, so, you know, I've been agency the whole time. But when you think about those two sides of the house in this career, what, what have you brought from each of those?

Megan Noel: I have loved that I have spent 50% of my career on agency and 50% in-house. Um, I think that it brings a perspective of both sides of the profession that is so necessary.

When you are on the agency side, you are on the edge of the profession, on the edge of creativity. You're seeing a broad swath of clients, a broad swath of business challenges and mega trends, and you can have your hand in, in a lot of different [00:53:00] opportunities. It also, especially earlier in your career, gives you a chance to learn what you like and, more importantly, what you don't like to do.

And, and then what you don't like to do is just as important, if not more important, because it helps you narrow h- how do you chart your career path forward, um, and, and what, what opportunities you wanna take on versus not. In-house has allowed me to hone my business skills and really get close to those that are not living day in and day out in the communications corporate affairs world and, um, test my business acumen and test my business knowledge.

Um, it also helps me ensure that I am creating teams, goals, and my career that's close to what the business needs are, as opposed to just doing something for the creativity or the wow factor. For those that are just starting in their careers, I, as I said, I [00:54:00] encourage you to go to the agency, try stuff out, learn a lot.

I also encourage people to go in-house because you get that, that, uh, business acumen that you wouldn't have gotten being on the agency side. Um, but what I've learned is that spanning both agility is so important. The only constant is change, and, um, you have to be able to, when you're the agency side, switch from client to client, challenge to challenge, the same as in-house.

Curiosity is critical, right? If you don't know something, go deep and learn it. Um, and, and really try to be, um, a close partner to those that are, that are in the business or on the client side. I'll, I'll give you example with this, this role too, is I come up from a communications background. I had-- at PWC, GR was a partner to me.

Now GR reports to me, so I had to really understand public policy and our lobbying and [00:55:00] our, our, um, advocacy agenda in a deeper way than I had ever been before Equally, this is my first time at a public company, and so understanding investor relations and what it means to report earnings quarterly and how to engage with our investors in a meaningful way each quarter, but more importantly beyond that quarter to keep them engaged in our s- business strategy and where we're going and why we're going to that.

Um, each of those different experiences has made me, I think, a better professional. I, I talked to you a little bit about change management. I thought I'd hate change management. In fact, it was the area that I have loved the most overseeing. It was also the hardest.

Anne Green: Yeah. Often the things that are in leadership of all kinds, the things that are hardest, you learn the most, become most proud of.

It's not easy, but, you know, that's, that's where that growth comes from. It's like building that muscle. [00:56:00] I love that reflection. Um, another fun thing is you were named to the 2026 PRWeek Women of Distinction list. Congratulations. Thank you. That was a very fun honor. I was

Megan Noel: in good company with you, Anne.

Anne Green: We were both on the list at the same time, which was very fun and special to me.

Awards come and go, but this one did feel a bit special. What did, what did it mean to you? What did, what does that mark for you right now at this stage of your career, Megan?

Megan Noel: I think the award, PRWeek started doing this 20 years ago, so at that point I was just a young cub looking up and, and hoping I'd still have a job at some point.

Um, but I remember those lists coming out, and I remember I was at Edelman, and I remember one of my clients was on the list, and I remember celebrating her. We went to the award luncheon, and sitting there and saying to myself, "I wanna be on this list one day." Not for vanity, but because I wanna do something so meaningful, um, in my [00:57:00] career, and more importantly, to advance the profession that people will wanna put me on this list.

Um, I love this profession. I couldn't think of myself doing anything else. And to be On a distinguished list is incredibly humbling, um, and to be amongst amazing and powerful, and most importantly, kind women. I look across our class, and I know many of them personally, and each one of us is incredibly great at our jobs, but we're also incredibly kind.

Uh, you can't ask for anything more. Um, I also have two daughters, and so for their daughters to see their mom get an award and, uh, and, and have them be proud of me is, is just something incredibly special.

Anne Green: Well, I think that's an amazing place to end. Um, this is a very generous field, and this conversation is just a great [00:58:00] example of that.

And Meaghan, thank you. This was so fun, and I especially enjoyed some of the p- topics we dug into. So thank you for appearing on Building Brand Gravity, and I encourage folks, there's been a lot of good episodes lately, so if you loved what you heard here, go check out the others. Thank you.

Megan Noel: Thank you, Anne.

Jon Woods: It's just too much of a game changer for an organization to not step in. And I think what we're gonna find is that there will be organizations that if you ask them today, they would've said, "Oh yeah, we're using AI. We've got a enterprise license with ChatGPT," or, "We, we're using Copilot." But what they'll find is just enabling the licenses and not doing the work with their team and not doing the work with their people, it's going to lead to them looking around one day and saying, "We missed the boat here."

Steve Halsey: Welcome to Building Brand Gravity. I'm Steve Halsey.

Anne Green: And I'm Ann Green. Thanks as always to our listeners for joining us today.

Steve Halsey: You know, today's episodes gets into one of the most talked about, and frankly, one of the most misunderstood topics in our industry right now. You and I know it, [00:01:00] love it, we talk about it, we can't avoid talking about it, and yes, once again, I'm gonna talk about AI.

And this time, AI not as the headline and not as the tool, but how does AI show up as a real shift in how communications and marketing teams actually operate, how they make decisions, and how they build relevance in the marketplace?

Anne Green: Exactly, and one of the things we've been digging to in, uh, into quite a bit this year on the podcast is how AI is not just a technology story.

It's as much about leadership and culture as it is about a massive technological leap forward. I think that's sinking in more, but we have to keep talking about it. So we're seeing firsthand how it's starting to change how teams work, how we ideate and expand our toolkits, so to speak, and also in how decisions are being made as, as you implied earlier, Steve.

And in many cases, we're also seeing how it exposes whether organizations, everybody's really, actually have [00:02:00] clarity in how they operate. That's because, and this is a theme we've been discussing a lot, AI doesn't fix broken systems. It's a bit like that old saying, garbage in, garbage out. I mean, when you apply a technology like AI to a system or a strategy that's essentially broken or, or even simply not aligned, I think we feel pretty strongly, Steve, that AI just amplifies what's not working.

Steve Halsey: Yeah, that's right. And,

Anne Green: and it's also raising, I think, some important questions for leaders. So there's many, many of them. But questions like how do you create space for experimentation while still maintaining standards? And also protection, given the continued issues around cybersecurity and protecting client IP, and those issues are gonna become more intense as you have models like Anthropic Mythos coming onto the scene.

How do you build confidence and acceptance across teams that are at very different levels of AI adoption? We're facing that just like everyone, especially when there's so much negative news flying [00:03:00] around the whole topic today, including potential jobs impacts. That weighs on people. And, and also how do you make sure, this is very important for us, that human judgment, the part that must own and build trust and credibility, doesn't get lost as more of our workflows become either more automated or are driven by agentic systems?

So these are the questions and the tensions that we're seeing play out across organizations right now. We're deep into this, Steve, I know, but d- it, it really still feels like only the beginning.

Steve Halsey: You know, and that, and that's really what sparked today's conversation. A few weeks ago, we hosted the first Americas AI Summit with our partners.

We're part of an independent agency network called PROI Worldwide, and we brought together agency leaders from across North and South America, even had a few from Europe came over and joined us, basically to share what's actually working, like you said, where are teams struggling, and how expectations from clients are evolving over time.

And you were a big part of putting together that, that [00:04:00] summit and that discussion. And what came out of that summit was pretty clear. Like you said, this isn't just a technology conversation, it's really a leadership conversation.

Anne Green: Yeah, I couldn't agree more on that, Steve. It's a leadership conversation.

It's also a very human conversation. So today we're gonna continue that discussion right from the PROI summit to, to now, to a discussion you had with two agency leaders who are right in the middle of the shift, working directly with clients to navigate how AI is changing everything from workflow to visibility to reputation, to really what the agency-client relationship will look like in the future.

So joining Steve on this episode of Building Brand Gravity are our PROI colleagues, um, Hailey Driscoll from Walker Sands and John Woods from gl- Ground Floor Media. They're both bringing a thoughtful, but I think also highly practical on-the-ground perspective on what they're seeing and how they're advising themselves and other organizations like clients to move forward.[00:05:00]

And the conversation, I know, Steve, that you had definitely goes beyond just the products associated with AI. You dig into where leaders are getting stuck, how AI is shifting from a tool to really a full channel in some ways. You know, we can define our terms, but it, it's much bigger, and what it really means to build past what we call the baseline of AI adoption.

Steve Halsey: Yeah. So, so whether you're leading communications, marketing or, or just thinking about how your organization stays relevant in such a fast-changing environment, this really is a conversation about what actually matters in AI right now, and, and, and I'm excited to share it with our viewers and listeners.

Anne Green: All right. Let's get into it.

Steve Halsey: Welcome to Building Brand Gravity. I'm Steve Halsey, one of our hosts. And with me today, uh, two very esteemed guests that I'm excited to hear their points of view on AI. We have Haley Driscoll, who's the SVP of PR and the managing director of [00:06:00] Boston for Walker Sands. Haley, welcome to the podcast.

Hailey Driscoll: Thanks. Good to be here.

Steve Halsey: And we've got John Woods, who's a partner with Ground Floor Media. John, excited to hear your points of view as well.

Jon Woods: Excited to dive in. Thank you, Steve.

Steve Halsey: Yep, ready to go. Well, we're gonna call this episode AI Is Changing the Rules: Are You Leading or Reacting? And I had the great opportunity to talk with John and Haley.

Uh, we're all part of PROI International, which is, uh, a group of independent agencies around the US, around the world actually, uh, that, that come together to share best practices and, uh, to really expand our knowledge and our capabilities. And, and we hosted The first ever AI summit a few weeks ago, so we had about 30 participants from throughout North America, Central, South America, even had a few of our friends from Europe that snuck over because they thought it'd be a little more fun to be here with [00:07:00] us.

And we were talking about a number of things in ter- and I'm just gonna hit a couple of these because I have these in my notes, and then we'll get into, into some questions. But one of the things that, that we really spent a lot of time talking about was this bifurcation of maturity in terms of where AI is sitting or kind of this messy middle.

Everybody is doing something to some point. Some are really far ahead, some are at a little bit more at the nascent stage. So you're seeing this bifurcation, not just within the agency world, but also we're seeing that among a lot of clients. We're seeing that AI is already being embedded in a lot of our core functions, creative, how we do our media, workflow, strategy, crisis simulation, all of these things, which really then begs the question of where does value sit in that, that setup?

And I think one of the biggest constraints that we really talked about was it was less about the technology and more about driving [00:08:00] behavior. And to me, I thought that was the really interesting one. So I guess I'll start on that and, and, and Haley, we'll kick it to you first. When you think about AI and the conversations you're having with clients and with your team, what are the biggest misperceptions or blind spots that, that, that you see out there from a communication standpoint?

Hailey Driscoll: Yeah, it's a great question. I think there are, there are several. Um, one of them I think, which I, I hope we get into a little bit more as we go, is just the idea that a lot of people are really focused on AI as an efficiency tool, which is, is understandable. Um, I have a lot of clients that come to us and come to their internal teams and say, "Build me an agent that can do X."

And, um, it's something that is probably, uh Not the best use of team's brainpower and time, but it's also not moving the needle. So instead of thinking about what AI can deliver that we weren't able to do [00:09:00] previously at all, um, they're stuck on focusing on it as just an efficiency tool. So I think that's one challenge.

Um, the other really big one that I'm seeing right now is not looking at the fundamentals or the building blocks that you need for AI. So I think because of everything we're reading in the media, the pressure to innovate, people are jumping very quickly to wanting to create these efficiency tools, these agents, right?

Um, but they're not thinking about some of the building blocks that might be critical to get there. For example, do you have the right data that's going to ensure that you get really high-quality outputs, um, from AI that you're using? Does your team know how to prompt in a way that is going to most effectively deliver those outcomes?

And so, um, summarizing, I think, uh, some of the challenges or misconceptions are this propen- or this drive to move very quickly without stopping to think about, A, what are we really trying to achieve here, and B, do we have the right building blocks in place [00:10:00] to actually make that possible?

Steve Halsey: John, what about from your perception?

Do you see a lot of, uh, common blind spots?

Jon Woods: I do. I think the, um, gravitation towards efficiency and time savings, even if it's in service of spending more time on strategy and creativity and things that We as humans excel at is, it, it's leading to, uh, disappointment in some circumstances, and it's leading to, while there are things that can be done and automated now that can help find time for more, more productive, more valuable activities, there's, to Haley's point, setting up the systems and building the context and all of those pieces that need to be in place to get, um, appropriate output, and the, the human layers that need to be built on top of those processes, the review, the verification, um, even how it's communicated [00:11:00] within an organization of how did you use AI?

Did you not use it? Are we, are we using AI on top of AI? You s- it was created in one tool, and then somebody from the proofing team or from a reviewer is also running it through AI, so you're getting skewed results. Those processes aren't yet in place, and it's, it, it's almost as if when you think about the internet and the, the change in, in the late '90s and early aughts when the internet and e-commerce and all those tools changed the way we worked, it happened slowly.

It ha- this is like if you to- if you went back all the way to the early '90s and you just dropped today's internet on them and said, "Figure out how to make this work in your business," people wouldn't have known where to start. They got... There was a, there was a slow, steady drip there comparatively to what we're now facing, um, and it's creating, it's creating issues with adoption and inconsistencies and, and making sure that, that team members understand where the organization is, uh, and where they're going.

And [00:12:00] to, to Haley's point, many people aren't taking the time to t- to truly understand what are our processes, what are our goals, what are our values around how we use these tools before they race and try to build.

Steve Halsey: Yeah, and I, and I, I think a big part of it, too, is to give some granularity to the definition.

It's like saying print Or digital. You know, those are, those are some pretty big things. So I, I think people feel like they need to use the word AI, but then it's thinking about how do you use that? Where do you put that in context? And, and one of the ways I like to think about it is, is almost as three different layers, right?

At one level, yes, there is an efficiency layer and the ability to very, very quickly process data or information or things like that. There's a certain automation, uh, efficiency to it at, at a really base level. But then there's a mid-level of, hey, how does this really improve the work that we're doing? How does it, how does it do the quality?

Uh, not just the analyzation of the, of [00:13:00] the data, but just really using it as a thought partner, partner, creative partner, ideation, a research tool, whatever is going to make that human better at the council. And then for me, then that third layer is, but then what kind of new IP can we create if in the markets that we serve you're getting deeper and deeper and building that data set to which you could create some really new IP.

But I'm, I'm interested in your take. But for me, that's where I kind of think of it as at three levels. What is that AI level for efficiency? What makes the work better? And then what new cool, fun stuff can we, uh, can we create that creates a lot of value for the clients and the brands we serve?

Jon Woods: What excites me about it and, and what I've s- seen excite some of our, our clients is a lot of barriers have been removed.

So the, the things that were holding us back from wanting to create more, um, more personalization for our customers to deliver better [00:14:00] messages at, at better times, to deliver better products and services. Um, a lot of the things that have been stopping us from, from going as far as we want to, to truly create experiences and tools for our, our customers and us in turn for our clients, um, i- There, there shouldn't, uh, many of those barriers are gone now.

Um, it re- still requires a level of creativity, it still requires technical know-how and, and most importantly, the data to get it done. But the, the sky really is the limit on what we create now. So there is a little bit of prioritization. Uh, if we can build everything and we can build anything, well, what do we do first?

And how do we make sure that we're not trying to build everything and we're not trying to build, um, anything? So, uh, prioritization on, on what we're doing, and making sure that, that we're, we're bringing everyone along, that we're not leaving team, team members and customers behind, and that we're putting the thoughtfulness into how and what we're [00:15:00] building to ensure that we should be building it.

Uh, and making sure, uh, getting comfortable with that idea of this, you hear with AI, "Oh, I'm getting left behind," or, "It's moving so fast." Getting comfortable with the idea that you're never gonna be in front of AI. You're always gonna be behind at some level, and if you're doing what's right for your organization and right- what's right for your customers, then that's okay.

Hailey Driscoll: Yeah, I think it's a good point, this letting go of the fear of where am I relative to the industry as a whole, um, whether that's the PR industry or just AI in general, right? I, I work with a lot of companies who are, they are AI companies, and they themselves ... I had a, an executive say to me this morning, "The story I would've told you about AI adoption last week is different than what I would tell you this week."

So I think letting go of that and staying really focused on, on your own progress and how that maps to the strategy that you've ideally identified before you, you start building and moving, um, that's the only [00:16:00] benchmark that I think is, is realistic. Um, in terms of what I'm seeing with clients and sort of different levels of, of interest and adoption, I do think there's been a really nice reinvigoration of, of what we do in our craft, right?

I have clients that, you know, we always wanna be a partner to clients, a thought partner, um, rather than just a vendor, but I think that's- Coming to life in a very different way now, where I have clients coming to me or me coming to them and saying, "Hey, I have an idea for how we can approach this challenge in a very different way with a mix of our team members and technology.

Would you be up for, for trying this together?" And vice versa, I have clients coming to me and saying, "I wanna experiment in this way. Do you wanna do this with me?" And so I think that is taking that thought partnership that we've always valued in working with clients to a new level of we are really building processes and systems in, in a new way together, and that is a [00:17:00] really special way for our, um, us to work with clients, but also I think our industry to advance.

I will say, though, that with that, I think, and I'd be curious if you all are seeing the same, I think there's a very large gap between those companies, agencies or in-house communicators that are wanting to move forward and willing to take those risks, and then, um, other organizations or individuals who perhaps it's not as big of a priority or, um, there's still a little bit of concern about How deeply or how much to trust technology beyond really basic use cases, um, since as I mentioned, the story and the reality is changing so much every day.

So I'm personally seeing such a discrepancy. I would say that's even true of internal team members, like adoption is very varied in terms of like comfort level with it, and, um, curious if, if you're seeing the same across your organizations [00:18:00] or client organizations.

Steve Halsey: Yeah, I, we, we are, we are seeing a big change and, and at least how I'm talking about it, uh, both to clients and internally, is you've got to think about it in two ways, kind of, I call it competency and relevancy, right?

It is moving whether we wanna be there or not, and you've got to get some level of proficiency as an organization and as an individual to have that base competency, and that's gonna be required to stay relevant. Stay relevant to your clients, to the market, to the conversation, to the speed of pace, and I think that's really interesting.

And I think one of the things for me, um, that's been really interesting about this is, you know, over my almost, uh, three decades, uh, i- in this industry, most of the innovation that we saw was being driven very heavily by agencies, by tech startups. I mean, that was really where-- And then it was, "Hey, how do we convince the corporate clients and brands to move along?"

There are so many [00:19:00] CCOs that I'm talking to right now that are really driving the innovation and leaning in here because it really allows them to optimize even tighter budgets now, even tighter staff, um, and just thinking about how that can make them almost function like a larger department. One of the, um, largest companies in, uh, biopharma research was talking to their, um, CCO, and she said, "You know, it's kind of funny, like 20 months ago, we were just kind of playing with, oh, let's see what ChatGPT and Copilot could do."

She said, "Now my expectation is you don't come into a meeting with me without having used AI in some meaningful way to improve what you're about to present or the decisions we have to make." So you have companies like that are really leaning forward, then we have others who are still, I think, fighting with their legal team and their IT team as to is AI a...

What, what is it? Is it a technology that needs to be governed under IT rules? I, [00:20:00] I don't know about you, John. What are, what are you seeing? Are you seeing that same mix of early adopters, laggards, and those trying to figure out, uh, the middle?

Jon Woods: The, uh, big time. And I think that, I think that it's, there's such a variety of situations.

Everyone's personal journey, um, here at, at, Groundfloor Media with our clients is unique. So it's, it's, I, I hesitate to even put them into, to two buckets, three buckets, 10 buckets of, of what that adoption looks like. And, and we've been-- it's been really interesting to see, um, which folks are, are wanting to experiment, which folks wanna wait and understand what's the tool that, tool, and tool set that we're gonna use, and, and who is hesitating.

And I, w- we are, uh, as an agency, we use Enneagram, and we use Emergenetics, and, and we understand how, um, how different people think differently. And I haven't, within those tools, um, [00:21:00] haven't seen a, a consistent, oh, someone who's more of a blue thinker is l- or someone who's more of a yellow thinker loves AI.

It's, it's across those different, um, thinking types. Um, so I don't know what that, that driver necessarily is or what's holding people back, but it's very, very, um, different for, for everyone. And it's, that's another thing that's holding organizations back from making sure that the team is at at least a base level of consistencies.

Everyone needs, at some level, unique, um, guidance and unique teaching on how to adopt those tools. And then with the, the organizations that we work with, there's a lot of, there are, there are, um, situations like that, Steve, where one department has kind of h- they've, they've been given the freedom to, or, or they have a leader who buys in, and they can explore and use tools, and they're, they're showing other organ- o- other groups in that organization how these tools can help them.

But even in [00:22:00] those teams where we're seeing companies struggle is where there isn't just full across the board buy-in. Um, almost always where it's done well, that's come from the top. It's come from a CEO and a C-suite who, who open the doors to say, "This is something that we're going to use. This is something we encourage you to use.

It is okay. We're going to experiment," whatever it is, that it's not necessarily coming from those individual departments and it's an or- it's an organization-wide f- uh, flag in the ground saying, "We're going to do this," because it, it doesn't create those individual pockets, but it creates an organizational buy-in.

And I think in the future what we'll see is those companies are more successful because if in two years from now the marketing department and the ops team have figured out how to use it, but now you're saying, "Okay, finance, um, okay, legal, it's time for you to get on board," and they're starting back from square one, you're gonna, you're gonna repeat a lot of these issues over again.

So it's, it, it really [00:23:00] requires organizational-wide buy-in that, that starts, that starts at the top and starts from a, a C-suite that understands the value and, and buys in and isn't, isn't afraid.

Steve Halsey: And I, and I think when I hear you say that, I mean, it really is really becoming a bit of a leadership competency.

So Haley, kind of from your, your perspective, you know, as a comms leader, how are you pushing your teams? How are you pushing the brands you work with to, to think about what's right for them?

Hailey Driscoll: Yeah, it's a really good question. I think that there are a couple of questions that I like to work through with a client when they, or even an internal team member, frankly, if they come to me and say, "I think we should use AI to do this project," or, "We should build an agent to do this function."

There are a couple of questions to make sure that we're grounded in something that is going to be really effective. One being, is this new, um, and worth investing significant time and resources [00:24:00] into? And two, is there a way to measure the success or the quality of the result or the output? And I know it's really common to, to look at AI and measure it in terms of like time saved or dollars saved.

That's not even necessarily what I'm talking about, but do we have a framework through which we can evaluate the output of AI to assess whether it's actually helping, um, us to do something in, in a more, not only efficient, but in a more strategic way? Um, or are we just creating more of a drain or like an AI debt through, through creating material that we're not actually able to assess the efficacy of?

Um, to give you an example, I think that one area where I'm seeing a lot of promise, and we talked about this when we were all in New York together, is actually testing messages, uh, against au- specific audience data before that goes live. So, whether that's campaign [00:25:00] messages or pitch angles you wanna test on a certain kind of, uh, media subset There's a lot of potential there, and, uh, a lot of agencies, Walker Sands being one of them, because we're integrated, we have a lot of data that our marketing strategy team collects on different, on different audience types and, and whatnot.

And so being able to use that sort of data to validate, um, campaign messages is, is a huge opportunity. However, I think just trusting an AI output without actually looking at other, um, signals in the market, doing fresh research of your own, speaking to human stakeholders, all of that stuff, um, you know, we can't, we can't take that as a single output.

And so that's an example of where I do think it, it answers the question of being able to deliver something new, but also you are able to assess the quality of it by taking AI's output as just one consideration rather than the end answer or [00:26:00] the end result.

Jon Woods: There's just such an additive, um, an additive element to what these tools can provide us with.

You mentioned, um, earlier the ability for smaller teams to now be so much more enabled because of what some of these tools can deliver. Um, uh, the, uh, for us as an agency, the, um, the additions to research and pressure testing and message testing and, um, uh, personas and all those different things that, that we've always been able to do, but haven't always been able to do, um, for, um, clients without b- budgets that were big enough, um, where we were always balancing resource loads within our own team.

Um, and then we've seen with our clients the ability to, to test, to go into campaigns, um, more prepared, um, the ability to [00:27:00] segment and personalize, as I mentioned before. There is just-- It's, it's just too much of a game changer for an organization to not step in. And I think what we're gonna find is that there will be organizations that, that if you ask them today, they would've said, "Oh yeah, we're, we're using AI.

We've, we've got a enterprise license with ChatGPT," or, "We, we're using Copilot." But what they'll find is just enabling the licenses and not doing the work with their team and not doing the work with their people, it, it's gonna, it's going to lead to them looking around one day and saying, "We missed the boat here.

We, we didn't get what we expected, uh, expected to." And I know that we, we, we started this question with, is this a leadership competency now? And I think that the So much of what, when we approach AI, so much of the skills that are needed and the approaches that are needed are not new. I mean, I think even as we're, we're, we're working with clients on [00:28:00] how they adopt AI, it, it goes back to what we've been doing for two dec- 25 years with internal com- uh, communications and employee engagement and making sure that everyone, uh, on a team is working together.

Those are s- those are things that we've been doing with clients for decades, and AI is a new use case there, but it's not a new skill.

Steve Halsey: Well, that's, that's really good food for thought, John. Haley, you know, you had said something interesting when we were in New York, uh, that was about thinking about AI as a channel, right?

We've been talking a lot about it as a tool, but maybe you can talk a little bit, what do we need to know about it as a channel in terms of visibility, GEO, reputation? All that good stuff. It's really multifaceted, I guess.

Hailey Driscoll: Yeah, this is another area where I think agencies have a lot of exciting opportunity for innovation.

I also think a lot of the clients that I'm working with, their leadership teams are [00:29:00] aware of this shift of AI and how that's increasingly a marketing channel. Um, but not everyone really knows what to do about that, and so it's another area where we're having a lot of conversations with clients. I think when it comes down to it, the, the crux of the situation is that, um, search behavior is really changing.

I saw a stat that for the first time in, I think, 10 years, Google's market share, uh, for search dropped below 90%, which is still fairly high, but in the context of how we've always searched, it, it marks a really significant change. And that's because buyers, whether that's consumers or even B2B buyers, are increasingly turning to LLMs at all stages of the buying journey to answer questions, see how one company stacks up against another, and really do their research.

And so now brands are contending not only with needing to be visible in traditional search, but also within generative [00:30:00] search. So how do they surface, um, in responses, prompt responses in ChatGPT or Claude, Google AI Overviews? And what's really interesting about this is, I mean, there's so many things I could geek out over this, but for one thing, all of the traditional levers that, uh, made a brand more visible in SEO are not necessarily the same things that are going to help the way that you show up, um, in generative engines.

But I also think that, um, the really exciting opportunity for PR people and comms teams that we're working with is that earned media is actually one of the most cited sources that's influencing gen AI prompt responses. And so it brings additional gravitas back to brand storytelling. The other thing is, uh, because AI prompt responses are not only determining whether a brand is visible, but they're also determining, um, how you are positioned because the generative [00:31:00] engines are actually writing responses about your brand or your category, right?

The story really matters. And so for people in our profession, the clients that we're working with, um, again, this resurgence of brand storytelling is really key because One of the very basic 101 ways that you can ensure the perception that you have in a generative engine prompt response is, um, consistent or accurate is by making sure that you have a very consistent story that you are telling across all of your channels.

So we are re-entering a timed where, a time where earned media is really critical, but also the story behind all of your channels, um, is arguably more important than ever before. And so, um, I'm very excited about, uh, how this shift is changing the marketing landscape. Um, and a, a lot of our clients have a lot of curiosity around this too.

Steve Halsey: So John, I, I guess they, they can't kill the press release, right? We've been hearing, uh, [00:32:00] decade after decade that the press release is dead, but it still has importance today, resurgent like the Phoenix, uh, now that we have, uh, have AI out there. What's, what are your thoughts as AI as a channel, and how are you counseling brands on, on thinking of it in that lens?

Jon Woods: The search component is, is so huge right now, and it, it's It, even though it's being built off of k- the, the structure and, and the, uh, architecture of a, of a search and SEO, uh, system, that was still just-- that was solving for Google. That was, yes, Bing and Yahoo, they, they get traffic, but it was solving for Google.

I think we all would focus there and, um, and then worry about the others later or, or not. But it's... This is so different. I, I just, uh, got back from vacation last week, and I hadn't noticed until I was in that situation, but I've-- between the tools I've... For Gemini, I use Gemini when I wanna learn something, [00:33:00] when I want to find s- the type of thing that I would search on Google.

What- tell me more about this landmark, or what's the story behind XYZ? It was a Gemini search. And then when I wanted a cocktail recipe, something that was personal to me, what kind of cocktail should I order here? Here's the menu. I went to Claude. That's where I've, I have my, more of my personal context.

And, and then when I wanted to learn how to do something, how do I fix this? Or why, how do I make this fan work in the hotel room? I went to, uh, to ChatGPT. And I'm not saying that that's a, a, a typical experience, but at where we haven't even mentioned, um, Perplexity and Grok and Meta's, uh, Meta's tools.

It's, it's, th- there's, it's just so much more complex of an ecosystem. And you can't say, "Hey, we're gonna show up in ChatGPT, and we're gonna call it a day." Because if you're not showing up in Claude, you're missing a huge percentage of your audience. So you're trying to solve why there's sim- similarities between them.

You're trying to solve a lot of problems at once. Um, and yes, [00:34:00] some of those typical SEO components still matter. Um, but to, to Haley's point, the getting mentioned by third parties through PR, through social, through influencers, all of those tools are more and more important. And to get those mentions, you have to, A, you have to have a talented agency that knows how to, uh, that has the right relationships and knows how to tell the right, the right stories.

But you also have to make sure that you, your, your brand story and the way that you live it, the, the way your customers experience it is, is perfect. I mean, it really needs, every positive mention is so valuable, but every negative mention is so much more damaging now than it used to be. Um, Will Reynolds, um, sen- at Seer Interactive wrote a story about how for them, they, when he was doing searches, um, there was all this, these positive reviews, and they would always show up, but all of the tools started surfacing one negative re-review that was, like, 10 years old [00:35:00] because they, the tools were inherently looking for something negative to include.

So that one negative r-review where we would even, we would counsel, um, clients, uh, a year ago, "Hey, that negative review, you've got 100 positive and one negative, and it's 10 years old. Don't worry about it." That's changed the game a little bit because if, if every single person is seeing that over again It becomes infinitely more damaging.

And then even as we're, we're all building for this, today's ecosystem and these tools today, maybe we're looking a little bit down the road, it's changing so quickly. W- we're, we're, we're not far away from a world where people don't go to the website anymore. The, the tools are doing all that work for us.

They're doing the e-commerce, they're transacting. I was-- We were looking at summer camps for our, our two boys recently, and I w- I, I looked at probably 10 different options, 12 different options, and only, only for the final one that we chose after we had chosen it did I go to the website and transact. So all those other sites never got my visit.

They couldn't [00:36:00] remarket to me. They couldn't... They didn't see any-- They didn't see the impact of me joining, what pages I looked at and get that data. Only the one that I transacted on did. And we're not far from a world where I could have just said, "Great, uh, Claude, now go enroll my boys in this camp and, and let me know when everything is done."

So it, it requires a level of, of foresight and, and building for the future that's really, really hard to do right now.

Steve Halsey: Well, and, and, and one of the things I, I think is interesting, and we've been doing this, uh, a lot in the counseling we're doing around issues in crisis, just to the point that you were talking about, you know, we used to call it data hygiene.

What is it? Hygiene has a good ... That kind of to build off of Hailey's point, there's a lot of story hygiene we have to do. If you've got old information out there around your company, when an issue or crisis hit or somebody searches it, guess what's gonna be front and center, right? So I think a big part of, uh, issues and crisis preparedness that brands need to do is [00:37:00] to think ahead of what are those likely scenarios and think about what information do we need to start staging and telling a credible story now so that the large language models, if somebody searches, will be pulling that information and, you know, less of maybe old information that you've led on there.

So I also think it's important, it's not a set and forget, as you both talked about. There's also a lot of I gotta think ahead, but I also gotta look behind and see what's out there and make sure we've got some good story hygiene. I mean, from, from your, your perspective, Hailey, what, what other things should CCOs and CMOs be thinking about right now?

Hailey Driscoll: I do wanna double-click on what you've both been saying. I love, Steve, what you mentioned about story hygiene, and Jon, the example that you gave about how you're, you aren't even going to the website when you're doing research into a product or service that you want to, uh, look into. To your point, I think that that reality is [00:38:00] closer than we think, and imagine what that means for brands' ability to tell their own story.

That's why I'll, I'll say again, the, the ability to have a very crisp and well-articulated and consistent, consistency is the key, story across all of your channels is really critical because not only is Claude deciding whether or not Jon and his family are going to assess your camp, they're als- Claude is also deciding what are the key messages that Jon is going to learn about that camp, right?

The AI is actually, um, shaping the perception that someone is going to have about your product or service in addition to just determining whether or not it's visible. And your own channels, while still relevant today, are becoming less and less of, um, a source that, that can be counted on to tell the full story.

And so I do think that story hygiene issue is just so important, and I would encourage CCOs and CMOs to look at it from the [00:39:00] perspective of starting with the story and then thinking about how it goes through every channel, including, um, growth, growth channels, sales motions, but then also the traditional communications and marketing channels, of course.

So that's, that's a really big one. And then the other thing that I would encourage them to think about is, again, going back to, uh, the data that they have that they're using to, um- Build or test messages on because there is so much data out there, but I, I still think there's a tendency to rely a little bit more on, uh, base level of, uh, source material if you're creating a custom GPT or just rely on ChatGPT or Claude's knowledge and ability to scrape the internet.

But, um, really if you subscribe to this belief that we are going to be using AI more and more as a channel for search, as a marketing channel, but also as a tool, as [00:40:00] professionals, um, making sure that you have the data foundation in place so you, you've as- assessed what is the really critical data for your brand or for marketing, you have consistency in how it's formatted.

And I, I realize this is the boring stuff, but I think figuring out those fundamentals now is not only critical for how you are using the technology today, but also, like I said, if, if we subscribe to the belief that this is only going to increase in relevance, making sure that you are taking the time now to have those fundamentals figured out is critically important, and I think it's a step a lot of people are missing.

Steve Halsey: Yeah, I, I agree. I agree. And, and John, a, a, a question, a question for you as, as, as I reflect on those examples you talk about and how omnipresent AI as a channel, AI as tools are getting in all of our lives, how do we stay curious? What, what, what a- what advice do we have so we, we don't just become [00:41:00] one with the machines, but we use it to unleash our creativity and curiosity?

What, what advice do you have?

Jon Woods: It's a great question. Um, it's, it's-- these tools are such an en- enabler, um, to, to learn and to experiment, but there are, there are so many, um, and they're changing every day. There's-- it's obviously there's a big, um, a big cost component. I think it's, a- and I think it's a l- it's not entirely aligned with your question, but I think it's really important that for those folks that aren't inherently experimenters, that they're at least experimenting, with quotes for those that are listening, within one tool.

Like get really good at one tool and understand its in and outs and its capabilities. And when I say tool, I'm mostly leaning towards, um, the, the, the Claude and, and ChatGPT and even Copilot and understanding do I-- am I really using [00:42:00] all of its capabilities or a good percentage of what it can do, and do I understand this tool?

That I think is so much more valuable than saying, "I know a little bit about a lot of tools." If you know, if, if you're, you've gotten good at one tool, you're, you're ahead of a big percentage of the, the population. And I think it's, uh, it's gonna be different for everyone, um, but it's, it's keeping a curious mindset and being able to filter out a lot of noise because, uh, the, the buzzword around even within AI, you know, right now it's agents and what can agents do for us?

It'll be something different in six months, and then as soon as that buzzword hits kind of a fever pitch, you've got every company adding in and talking about how they're utilizing it. But going all the way back to the beginning of our conversation, understand-- starting with outcomes, um, and starting with here's what I'm trying to do, what tools can help me do that, versus what new features do these tools have that I may or may not [00:43:00] need is, is incredibly valuable.

And then finding the right sources for you, whether it's a coworker or a blog or an email newsletter, um, finding those sources that, that deliver the information in a way and at a level that you're comfortable with. If you're doing that and you're, even if you're missing out on part of the conversation, that's okay.

Again, you're still staying ahead of, of most people. Uh, find time. I, I think every-- one of the things that We've seen that's been really important is finding an hour a week to just, to just experiment. And it doesn't have to be work-related. If, if that's something that you don't have time to and don't wa- uh, during the week, and don't wanna do it on a weekend, find a, find something to do, um, a- and experiment with AI for whatever it may be that interests you.

For a hobby. If you're a runner, how can this help me improve my, my times? If, if you're a reader, how can this help me find new books and log the books I'm reading? Um, really think about how can this, how can I learn [00:44:00] about this in a way that's enjoyable versus feeling like a chore?

Steve Halsey: So Haley, last question.

It's been a fascinating Building Brand Gravity episode. Last question goes to you. If you were to go back in time a year ago, a month ago, a week ago, a day ago, to give yourself advice on AI, what would it be?

Hailey Driscoll: Um, I think regardless of the time period, if I were to go back in time and give myself advice on AI, it would be just start experimenting and being curious.

I think the real unlock for me and for a lot of other people that are really passionate and seeing the potential here was one day sitting down and thinking, "I have something that I want to be able to do that I haven't been able to do before. How can I start tinkering with technology and, and figure it out?"

Um, I think the more that people, I love that John said curiosity is, is really key to this because I think that's the, the crux. Um, so the more that people [00:45:00] are willing to just dive in and just start learning in a hands-on way, um, the more value you're gonna be able to get out of it, and that's certainly been true for myself.

And, um, I think going back, just being willing to dive in more quickly and more fearlessly, um, is the advice that I would give to myself.

Steve Halsey: Well, wonderful. Well, thank you both for being guests on today's Building Brand Gravity. And again, Haley Driscoll from Walker Sands and John Woods from Ground Floor Media.

I invite you to check both of them out on LinkedIn. Check both of their companies. Amazing firms that we would highly recommend. Thank you so much for being with us today on Building Brand Gravity. And to our viewers, any questions or comments, please send them our way, and we look forward to seeing you on another upcoming episode of Building Brand [00:46:00] Gravity. 

David Grossman: [00:00:00] Good leaders most often as they're listening, they're also thinking about what they're gonna say next. Whereas exceptional leaders are thinking about listening and thinking about empathy as a real-time intelligence system.

Anne Green: This is Building Brand Gravity. I'm Anne Green.

Steve Halsey: And I'm Steve Halsey. Welcome back to our viewers and listeners. And Anne, have we got another great episode for them.

Anne Green: I agree. Later on in the podcast, we're excited to share a conversation I had with David Grossman of the Grossman Group. That's a consultancy he founded 25 years ago focused on organizational change and leadership and communications.

But David is also the author of a new book, here it is, titled The Heart Work of Modern Leadership: Six Differentiators of Exceptional Leaders, and that's what we're gonna dig in [00:01:00] together. And in it, he explores the kind of leadership needed in this moment of, I think we'd all agree, unprecedented complexity.

Unprecedented, Steve, we can't get away from that word.

Steve Halsey: Unprecedented.

Anne Green: Yeah, exactly. So you, you know, Steve, David commissioned research with friends of the pod, the Harris Poll, we've had them on often, and the research found as a top line, a lot more detail in the book, that only 30% of leaders meet the fast evolving needs of today's workforce.

And my discussion with David is all about the kind of mindset needed to go from good to really exceptional leadership that, as David says, integrates both the heart and the head, which he finds to be very important, and helps to build teams that thrive and innovate even when under great pressure, which I feel, you know, the environment is right now.

So before we get into my discussion with David, I thought it would be fun to pose a question to you, Steve. What do you feel [00:02:00] are the leadership qualities that support resilience in uncertainty and the ability to advance organizations and people no matter what the environment? Easy question for you, Steve.

What, what would you say to that?

Steve Halsey: Yeah, that's a really great question, Anne, and honestly, it's one right now that feels less theoretical and more operational. So I think for me it comes down to really kind of three qualities that you need to see consistently in leaders. And it's that ability, as you said, to navigate uncertainty versus just react to it, and I think that's an important nuance.

First is clarity under pressure. Not certainty, but clarity. That's that ability to step back, to make sense of the complexity, and articulate a direction that people can align to. So basically, in a moment like what we seem to be constantly in these days, everything is moving faster. It feels more ambiguous.

Teams don't need perfection, they just need a clear signal of where to go. The [00:03:00] second, and I think this is really important, I'm gonna throw air quotes around it, I call it "adaptive conviction." The best leaders I know, they do hold strong points of view, but they're not rigid. They're willing to evolve as new information comes in.

And really, it's that balance between confidence and curiosity, knowing where you're going but staying open how to get there, maybe some detours along the way, that I think is really critical. And third, and, and, you know, you really talk about this a lot, and I think it's an important part of your leadership style, is intentional connection.

And I think that's where David's work really resonates, is really this idea that it's just as important for the mid and long term to not just focus on those outcomes, but really what is that environment that you're creating where people can actually perform their best, to know what's expected of them, to be empowered to make [00:04:00] those decisions if they have a clear direction to go.

And that requires trust, empathy, and a real understanding of what motivates and challenges, you know, your team. So I think when you put all three of those together, the clarity, the adaptability, and the connection, you get leaders who can not only withstand uncertainty, but I think actually thrive in it and move their organizations and their teams through it.

What about you, Anne? What are the leadership qualities that you think are most needed today?

Anne Green: Yeah, I'm thinking about this a lot, no surprise, both for our group as a whole and our two agencies, but al- also our clients. I mean, I think we have to acknowledge it's not an easy time to lead or be led. You know, humans like certainty, and we don't have an abundance of that right now on many fronts.

But I really like the ones you shared, Steve. Very resonant for me, especially the idea of having both vision and conviction, yet remaining really highly adaptive and flexible. Um, I like that one a lot. Here are the three ones that I thought about [00:05:00] knowing I was gonna ask you the same question. So I think first, emotional intelligence to me is more important than ever.

Um, and that really starts with knowing yourself as a leader, understanding how what you are feeling can unconsciously drive both your perceptions and your behavior if you're not plugged into it, and making clear and informed choices about how you act and interact in the moment. That to me is all really critical to building the relationships and really tr- the trust that are so needed today, and that connects back to me to another podcast conversation you had with Dr.

Rochelle Ford of Paige about confidence in business, like the trust question. The second one I think is related to some of what you said, which is learning to sit in uncertainty. We are in a time when the unknown is a feature, not a bug, to use the old software metaphor, right? And we can't allow ourselves to be paralyzed by it.

We have to get comfortable with faster scenario planning paired with even faster pivoting as new [00:06:00] information becomes available. You can't be precious with your plan or your viewpoint. You have to be willing to change, right? And then the third for me I think a lot about is personal resilience. So it's funny, I was never an athlete in high school or college.

I was more on the theater and performing arts side, as many of our listeners know. But I'm thinking of myself more as an athlete now in the context of being a CEO or both of us being principals of this firm. Like, I need to be intentional about sleep and nutrition and exercise and mental health, and also taking breaks with people I love and things I love to do to ensure that I can bring my best to our teams and our clients.

So that's on my mind, too. And you know, Steve, to sum it up, uh, we always talk here at G&S Integrated Marketing Communications Group about creating an environment where our people can be high performance and highly human. That's a both/and. I do not believe these are mutually exclusive, and I think David Grossman's book is right in the pocket on that topic, frankly.

Steve Halsey: Well, you know, that sounds like a great [00:07:00] segue to get into your conversation with David, so let's go.

Anne Green: I'm so pleased to be talking to a wonderful person, David Grossman. Welcome to the podcast.

David Grossman: Thank you, Anne. Glad to be here.

Anne Green: So I'll do just a little bit of a bio. I've got it right here. Author, consultant, speaker, um, a real authority on leadership and change, uh, communications inside organizations, which is an area of great interest for me.

I always try to tell my leadership I'd like elite communications inside and outside our own organizations, like the shoemaker's children, if we can advise others, if we can't do that for ourselves too. But you are founder and CEO of the Grossman Group. Um, are you 25 years this year, David? Is that right?

David Grossman: We're, we're actually 26, but we're s- we're still celebrating, Anne, because you know what? There's just y- y- you always can celebrate things, right?

Anne Green: Yeah, it's true. And that's right, I remember the campaign last year. But that's a long

Steve Halsey: time

Anne Green: to have a consultancy, and that's a lot of impact you've had on others.

And we're here to [00:08:00] talk about something I've re- really enjoying. It's your book, The Heart Work of Modern Leadership. You see my little tape flags up here.

Steve Halsey: Um, six differentiators for exceptional leadership.

Anne Green: And w- the way I like to start, you know, we're gonna have a really nice substantive conversation, David.

But as people listen to us talk, I love to give them some framing and a lens to look through. So if you could tell our listeners what should they be listening for as we speak today relative to the book and what you're trying to describe today, what would that be?

David Grossman: So the headline is that there are three blind spots that good leaders face today.

I don't know about you, Anne, but I'm in that good leader category, and those blind spots are getting in the way of engagement and trust and business results, and specifically how we're rolling out AI successfully. So hopefully we'll talk about those blind spots, but also what are some solutions, some, some things we can do as leaders and senior leadership [00:09:00] teams to get at that.

Anne Green: That is great. And I think that there's some words that we're gonna unpack that feel positive, but they're more complicated in the context of what you're writing about, including the word good. So what motivated you to write this book? You've written other books before, and this is really jam-packed. It's actually beautifully illustrated.

There's a lot of meaty substance in here. Many, many other leaders' voices are in here as well. But what was the genesis for you, David, in, in saying, "I gotta put this all together," and why the heart work, not the hard work, the heart work of modern leadership?

David Grossman: Yeah. So during the pandemic, I, I talked with leaders about how they were doing, what were they doing, and one of the themes that came out was this idea of there wasn't a playbook, we've never been here before, but I just wanna be, and I am being human.

And I thought that was really profound, um, as we think about leadership today. So after the pandemic- Uh, [00:10:00] all this uncertainty started in our world, of course, and I wanted to get some data then to find out what does exceptional leadership really look like today, and does that human element still... Is it still as important as it was during the pandemic?

And as I've sort of grown up in this field, I've always been curious about the question: What makes leaders great? So it was all about sort of what makes leaders great today that led us to partner with the Harris Poll and to look at some research around what do employees think and what are those answers.

Anne Green: Yeah. I love that, that partnership with the Harris Poll, an organization we all know, and, um, we call Rob and team friends of the pod here because we're always interviewing them about very interesting research they do with the Page Society that you're very familiar with. In fact, uh, Steve Halsey just talked to Dr.

Rochelle Ford about that confidence in business data. So, you know, I love, um, that you're grounding this in data. So let, let [00:11:00] me get into some foundational terms here and some of that foundational research, 'cause I think it'll set the stage for everything that's gonna come. So some stats that you-- that stood out for me, and there are many in the book.

This was a very ri- rich piece of research. 54% of employees surveyed rated their leaders as good, okay? We're gonna come back to the word good and trouble the water a little there. But only 30% of employees describe their leaders as exceptional, and another 17%, happily the least, say their leaders feel outdated.

So my first question to you is what is the overall take on these stats, and, and what does that mean, good versus exceptional? Because, uh, that is so critical to understanding what you're trying to express in this book.

David Grossman: So as we were doing the research, I thought the book was gonna be about bad leaders, those outdated leaders.

But the reality was when we looked at the data It's actually more about those good leaders, [00:12:00] because when we asked employees, "What does it feel like working for those good leaders?" That's where we found those three gaps that were very surprising to me, that less than 20% of employees working for a good leader felt seen, felt heard, and felt like they were reaching their full potential.

What I realized is good leaders were built for stable times. They were trained during stable times. The habits that they have were all around stability. And of course, I wouldn't use the word stable to describe the times that we're in today. They are incredibly uncertain. There's so much change and transformation happening, and this good leadership today is really this invisible gap that I want to bring forward to help leaders think about what may not be seen on the surface.

Because when you think 54% good, senior leadership teams [00:13:00] would look at that and they'd say, "That's terrific." But when you dig deeper, you find out there's really an invisible problem and a big vulnerability that organizations are facing today.

Anne Green: That's really helpful, and I love that surprise that you had, because the idea of being really outmoded or really problematic, you know, just not great, and obviously not great.

Uh, it reminds me of something I often say to my people as they grow into managers themselves. I often say that when it comes to interpersonal issues or employee growth, now we're looking... You're talking about leaders, and we'll come back to that, but when we're talking about the growth, I often say that superstars are a little bit more clear-cut, and those that are really struggling or kind of a disaster for whatever reason, maybe it's just not the fit, are more clear-cut.

It's the folks in the middle, because there's such a huge range of what may or may not be at play there, and it takes a lot of discernment. So tell me again, what are those three blind spots? I think you just said them, but I really want to underscore the, that for those who are listening.

David Grossman: Yeah. Let's, let's go through those.

Before we do, [00:14:00] let me share two things that good leaders do well.

Anne Green: Good. '

David Grossman: Cause I'm a big fan of let's also know what we do well, and let's keep doing those things that we do well. So good leaders value the work, value the contribution, and they support the work as well. So they provide direction, and insight, and answer questions, and they say, "Thank you," and, "Great job," and really value the work.

So those are all good things. Good leaders should continue to do that. Then there are the three gaps. So here's the first. Only 16% of employees under good leaders feel that they are valued as a person.

Anne Green: Hmm.

David Grossman: So there's a subtle distinction here. We just talked about good leaders value the work. This is about valuing the person behind the work, and that's a significant difference, and that's [00:15:00] super important.

Second, 19% of employees feel heard. When you hear that stat, leaders often think, "Oh gosh, it's a listening problem." But it's not a listening problem, because you can't hear what people won't say, and people won't say things when they feel like it's risky. So not feeling heard is really a psychological safety challenge and issue.

And then the last is 14% feel they're not reaching their full potential. That's the lowest number that we m- measured, and that's a retention crisis sort of in, in the making, if you will. There's a invisible drip behind the wall in our house, Anne, that we don't know about, but now we do know about it because we've got some data, and we, we need to address it, all three of those gaps.

Anne Green: It's interesting, David, to sit and contemplate the distinction, and I think they are profound, between leadership appreciating the [00:16:00] work and the output, and being grateful for that and expressing that, versus where there feels like a divide between recognizing the person that's doing that work or that person's sense of purpose or value, and that they're being actualized or realized within the role.

Am I, am I thinking about that right in trying to tease those things out?

David Grossman: Yeah. It's perfect, Anne. So, uh, I'm a big Broadway fan, as, as you know. And in- Me too ... ev- in every musical, the hero early on comes out and they sing what's called an I Want song, and it tells you essentially everything you need to know about that, that hero.

So should we do a little quick test here? So Ariel f- f- Ariel, for example, what does Ariel want?

Anne Green: She wants to be human or to have- Yes ...

David Grossman: legs. Yes. To be pa- Yeah, exactly. To be part of our world. Exactly. Okay, Elphaba. Elphaba, what does Elphaba want?

Anne Green: Oh, to... Yeah, absolutely. Uh, those movies are amazing.

David Grossman: She wants to [00:17:00] be absolutely sort of herself and be seen as who she is on the inside.

One more. We'll do Hamilton. What does Hamilton want?

Anne Green: The world's gonna know my name. What's your name, man?

David Grossman: Well, exactly. And he wants to make sure he's not gonna miss his shot.

Anne Green: Don't miss... Yes, exactly.

David Grossman: Yes. So every employee has their own I Want song, and the question for us as leaders is, do we know what that song is?

Because that song or that story tells us everything we need to know about that person, their hopes, their dreams, their aspirations, the path that they're on, sort of where they are in their life journey. Super important, so that we can recognize that and them instead of just the work that they're doing.

Anne Green: I wanna get at this in a slightly different way, although you may have already said it, but, uh, we'll see if, if there's any distinctions here.

What do you think many leaders believe employees need versus those pieces you've just talked [00:18:00] about, especially that I want kind of piece? What, what do you think is that gap? What, what do you think most employers believe and think employees want?

David Grossman: Yeah, I, I'm not sure that leaders are always thinking about what their employees want and need and how to help them be successful.

I think sometimes we as leaders, we're sort of stuck in our heads and our minds. Like, we're very clear about what we think and what we need and how we want to proceed and what we want to accomplish But then the question is, how do we accomplish what we want to accomplish through the very people that we need to help us get there, that have their own ideas and thoughts and perspectives, and do wanna be trusted and motivated, and are a really important information source for us as leaders to make successful decisions?

Anne Green: Do you think the gulf has gotten wider in recent times? We have a few different macro trends, or [00:19:00] just foundational pieces and threads that I feel could be at play here. There is generational shift. Each generation has... A lot of the generational cliches are not helpful, but, but some of them are very true, and a lot of it has to do with what different cohorts of a generation are living through at any given time.

There is the post-COVID environment, the different way work is being done. There is tremendous upheaval. Sometimes I say to my more senior folks, "If you look at our more junior staff, you know, in some ways for Generation Z and younger, the social contract has been broken in some ways." But do, do you... And then there's the AI of it all, too, obviously, which makes things even more unstable.

So it's a lot of that unst- instability you've been talking about. But do you have hypotheses on what some of those macro threads are that may make this a slightly different environment now when you talk about that stability versus instability? Is there more there?

David Grossman: Yeah, I, I think you captured, you know, the myriad of factors that are making our world much more uncertain than ever before today.

And I think then [00:20:00] you weigh on, you add onto that the weight that people are bringing into the workplace today. Psychologists call it allostatic load, that sort of emotional weight, that heaviness, that I think it's fair to say has n- never been as high as it is today. And that means that we as leaders are the real variable here.

So... And I've been thinking a lot about, like, what's the relationship between uncertainty and leadership and the employee experience? And the reality is, all of this uncertainty isn't going to change. And, you know, the employee experience is going to be different based on what kind of leadership. So f- so for example, if you take uncertainty times outdated leadership, you're gonna get paralysis and disengagement, and all those things that we would expect.

On the other end of the spectrum, if you take uncertainty times exceptional leadership, you're gonna get that safety and trust and [00:21:00] advancement and confidence that we all want. But what's so interesting is you, you have good leadership, you take uncertainty times good leadership, and what we're seeing today and what you're getting is anxiety- And complacency and drift.

And that's very different than we've seen in the past in stable times. And that means we as leaders need to help our folks, help ourselves first, and then our-- help our folks work through all of this uncertainty and this emotional weight that we carry. And most leaders today, those good leaders were never trained to deal with all this emotional weight and all of the challenges that we face in the workplace today.

Anne Green: When I read, um, your discussions about the load folks are carrying mentally and, you know, and we can use the more, um, scientific word or we can say mental load and, and, you know, as a shortcut. It's funny, in our town hall for my own [00:22:00] team in Q1 talking about AI I had our creative team do a picture of a brain, and I had it labeled AI mental load.

And on the-- There was one side of the brain that was lighter, and I spoke to, these are the things we hope to focus on: medical advances, augmented intelligence, you know, greater productivity, human flourishing. But on the dark side of the brain, I said, we are being forced to hold and contemplate a whole host of things.

So when you list them all, feel a bit insane. You know, water use, land use, environmental, job loss, societal disruption, potentially autonomous weapons. I mean, this, it, it, it was a long list, longer than the other side. And I was trying to say to folks, I wanted to name it and say, we have to understand the load we're carrying just on AI alone, not to mention the rest of it.

So that very much resonates with me, and I feel like if you can't name it. And also as counselors, so we are in integrated marketing communications, so we also have to serve as counselors to [00:23:00] clients. And my attitude about something like AI, for example, as a huge disruptor, is you have to hold both sides, or you cannot speak to it and counsel others nor follow your own path.

But wow, the load of carrying that is a lot, David.

David Grossman: Yeah, absolutely. And part of what you're talking about here, too, Anne, is just biology in that we, you know, we have two operating systems in our brain today. And in, you know, in the prefrontal cortex, we have the higher level kinds of activities that happen when it comes to creativity and problem-solving and all of that.

And then there's the primitive part of our brain that's in the am-amygdala, and that's more like the smoke detector for danger, if you will, today. And, you know, as you go through the list that you just went through, so much of that causes... I think oftentimes about our, our thinking brain is like it's Wi-Fi for us.

The Wi-Fi goes down, the amygdala gets hijacked, and it's very difficult for us to do our best [00:24:00] work and thinking. And so there's some biology, too, today that we need to recognize and acknowledge. 'Cause if we're not dealing with some of that emotional content or emotional weight in the workplace today, it doesn't take much for someone to go from their thinking brain to that survival brain, which means that they are not as productive and helpful and getting as much work done as possible.

So I share all of this because there's some literal biology here that we need to account for. And one of the things that we know, gratitude, as we did the research, was the number one differentiator of exceptional leaders. And part of the value of gratitude and recognizing not just the work, but the person, as we've been talking about, is it short-circuits the survival brain It says to employees, "I see you.

I value you. You are safe." And that's just a reality that we leaders need [00:25:00] to start to figure out and deal with in the workplace today.

Anne Green: I think that's so powerful, um, because it also, and I- we've done some training for our leaders on emotional intelligence, which feels more urgent than ever these days to know even what's going on in your own body, whether you practice meditation, mindfulness, emotional intelligence.

But I think that practice of gratitude also takes you away from your own alert system. We are, especially those of us in fields like marketing or comms, internal comms, leadership, are, are really very highly sensitive to risk, looking at possibilities, looking at what could go wrong. And when you are focused on that, that's a natural way that also aligns with that, you know, that, that ancient system in our brains and bodies, and you have to be alert to that.

But I do think gratitude is a way of reprogramming, and that's actually brings us, I'll show it for the camera, the, the six differentiators that you identified. If, if you could share what those are, um, I'd [00:26:00] love to reflect on those. What are those differentiators of exceptional leadership today? What are the six that you've identified and why?

David Grossman: Yeah, absolutely. Ha- happy to do that, and I, I wonder if I can share sort of each of the differentiators and then what good looks like-

Anne Green: Yes, absolutely ...

David Grossman: and what ex- what exceptional looks like. So- Please do ... so grat- gratitude Um, oftentimes good leaders feel appreciation, but they, they move too fast. They may just say tha- thank you, and we've already talked about they might recognize the work, but not the, the person.

Exceptional leaders slow down. They share gratitude, and they recognize the person. They say, "I see you. I see what you did." And it's hugely valuable. They treat gratitude not like fine china. I don't know, does anyone still have fine china, Anne, anymore that you bring out at special occasions? But instead, it's like, um, a, a cast iron kind of pan that gets better the more that it's [00:27:00] used.

And to your point, too, Anne, gratitude doesn't just feel good for the person receiving it, it also feels good for the person giving gratitude. And so the challenge, the opportunity with this number one differentiator is can we recognize people? Can we share gratitude three, four, five times a day? And if we did, how powerful that would be for not just us, but for our people as well.

Anne Green: And how we do it in an authentic way, too, where it doesn't... Because I do think that people are very wary and very highly tuned to things that feel not real from the heart. So I think that's a very interesting part of it, too.

David Grossman: Absolutely. Perfo- performative. You know, people, they s- they sniff it out really quickly, and, and they know when it's real and, and genuine.

That's when it really, it makes a difference and, and it, you can just, you can feel it, that it's, it's genuine as you're sharing gratitude with folks. Uh, so that's the first. [00:28:00] The second differentiator is around listening and empathizing. So good leaders most often, as they're listening, they're also thinking about what they're gonna say next, for example.

Whereas exceptional leaders are thinking about listening and thinking about empathy as a real time intelligence system That this listening, this curiosity, this empathy is giving you as a leader information about potentially what weight this employee is carrying, some potential solutions that you might not have thought of.

There's so much power or empowerment in listening and empathizing. So that's the second differentiator.

Anne Green: I love you bringing curiosity into that, 'cause I think that's extraordinarily important, because it's not just, "I'm gonna listen and feel for you or with you." I wanna be curious about you. And then I think the other thing you reminded me of that one is that one of those hard manager and then leadership lessons is listening without solutions.

Mm-hmm. That I just, I'm not gonna [00:29:00] just fix this situation, right?

David Grossman: Yeah. Being hugely curious. I, I challenged a leader last week in a conversation to only ask questions. In his next conversa- if you only ask questions, it means you're continuing to gather information. It means you're continuing to be curious instead of what we often see.

I mean, look, there is way too much telling that happens from leaders and not enough, and not enough listening. I think we, we all know that listening is such an important skill for folks to continue to work on. And the advanced skill too which I would challenge folks to be thinking about is often thinking about, like, what is not being said.

That's really the advanced skill here. So many conversations, there's an undercurrent or undertone, or there are facts or data that just aren't being shared, and your Spidey sense starts to go off, and that's the perfect time to be seeing if you can listen for what, what's not being explicitly said.

Anne Green: That's great.

David Grossman: All right. [00:30:00] Differentiator three, fostering an inclusive culture, which is all about this idea of we're all in this together. So good leaders let culture sort of run from momentum, if you will, and are purposely sort of thinking about culture. Exceptional leaders are thinking about creating that psychological safety that we talked about, about understanding what their people are carrying, about checking in with them, about asking questions like, "What am I missing?"

Or, "What truths have you thought of but you haven't mentioned here?" So creating that safety that gives us data and information that we really need and can use, and that can be super helpful to us.

Anne Green: I love that because we know, especially in recent years, the whole concept of inclusivity or inclusive culture as part of the acronym DEI, diversity, equity, inclusion.

It's been much abused, to [00:31:00] be polite about it. But I also think the principles and practices of DEI were not well-defined always, and the idea that somehow it was exclusionary. So the idea of to reflect more on what inclusion might really mean and the kind of supercharging it can do to individuals and culture, and to really sit with that, I, I love that discussion, David, and I think it's really important that we return to that and we understand that inclusion is still so deep and profound, and it has so much to do with trust and being seen and being heard, and feeling like you can have your voice in the room.

I mean, there's such, such a world there for me when you talk about that one.

David Grossman: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, the data is, is super clear that folks aren't feeling seen. And, and that's why, from a framing perspective, I think about it as creating safety so folks can speak their truths, and this idea of we're all in this together Whatever we're working on , we're working on this collectively to get to an end, and we need everyone's best.

And in a [00:32:00] lot of cases, we need some different, diverse perspectives if we wanna innovate, for example, to get to wherever it is that we wanna go. All right. So differentiator four then is communicating with context. So good leaders were trained in a time when they had answers. So employees would ask questions and leaders would have answers.

In uncertain times today, exceptional leaders share what they know when they know it, and they also share what they don't know, versus good leaders often wait to share information till they have all the facts, for example, and we know what happens then. The information vacuum fills. So better to share what you know, you know, when you know it, and what else you're working on trying to find out.

Anne Green: That one is really critical. I see in client service often, I've, I've advised people over the years, communicate with full context and more fully the first time so you don't have the situation of telephone game or a bunch of short emails where understanding becomes less and [00:33:00] less and frustration gets higher and higher.

And I think that idea of how do we... And I love I was laughing to myself when you were like, "In the old days, leaders, you know, people had questions, leaders had answers." And today we can't have all the answers. So I think even recognizing that, how leaders sit in uncertainty and their lack of knowing. I often some- I talk sometimes about if I'm confronting something I don't know, it's like I'm opening a fan, and every rib of the fan is a possible outcome, and some are amazing and some are horrible.

But, like, kind of taking in all those outcomes, but then how do you share what you know or believe or hypothesize at that time? I, I think that's a really productive thing to be thinking about.

David Grossman: Yeah, a- absolutely. Well, and, and think too about, like, what happens when, when you say, "I, I, I don't know," you know, to a team, and say, "H- help me.

W- what do you think? What are the possibilities?" You're demonstrating being vulnerable. You're opening up the discussion to a lot of people who, chances [00:34:00] are, have some strong, important perspectives that are worth considering that you may or, or may not have. That's why one of my favorite questions to ask is, "What am I, what am I missing here as a leader?

Like, what, what else is here that I'm not thinking about, that we're not thinking about?" Which invites others in a safe environment to, to make a contribution and to help, because we're all in this together, of course. All right, the next differentiator, five, is about connecting strategy to employee growth.

So this too gets at the third gap around employees not feeling like they're reaching their potential. So good leaders talk about the why and the what of strategy, why we're going here and, and what the strategy is, or what our goals of our team are. Exceptional leaders talk about the why, the what, and the you.

So here's our strategy, here's where we're going here, and here's how you benefit. Here's how you're going to contribute and develop and be part of [00:35:00] this, which helps individuals know then that they have some potential. They're gonna contribute to what's most important for us.

Anne Green: David, I do have a question on that one, because even our organization, which is smaller than some of the, many of the largest companies out there, this really matters for us, too.

And some of the change initiatives we've been driving, we're talking at, um, the organizational level, the group level, and also to individuals, but one of the things we've been talking about in leadership is how critical it is to spend more time at that one-to-one individual level. Do you, do you feel that's important to, to make this real?

David Grossman: Oh, ab- absolutely. I, I think, you know, what do our one-on-ones often look like today? You know, we get with someone, hopefully regularly, and what do we talk about? We talk about the work. What we don't often talk about is sort of the path that they're on, their development plans. What we don't do often is an emotional check-in with them as to how are they doing when it [00:36:00] comes to work, sort of what kind of weight are they carrying.

So my wish is that we do more one-on-ones with each of our folks, including a one-on-one that is solely about that employee's path and development and career. Because that is gonna be a kickoff to hopefully ongoing conversations about them, and that tells them that they have, they have a future here.

'Cause that now they have some sort of sense of path and how we're gonna help them continue to grow, and how we hope that they're gonna, of course, stay with our organization.

Anne Green: You know, and I, I think it's so good. I, I was kind of leading the witness and asking you to answer that, 'cause I certainly agree.

But I, I do think we all fall into a trap, and there's a lot of things, by the way, as reading this, I look in the mirror and say, "I could do better," you know? Absolutely. But I, I think we do... Well, of course our one-on-ones we're gonna talk about that person's career, but I think there's so much less of that, and so much less about let me translate this bigger picture strategy to you, and [00:37:00] what, not that I have gospel truth on what exactly it'll mean, but this is what we hope it'll mean, this is what we anticipate it'll mean, and I think we can get very caught up.

Um, I am in a professional services environment, as you are, and that work and that client responsiveness can, is, is paramount. It's why we exist, and yet it goes back to something you said earlier. How do we slow down and open it up more and make that context stick, and, and really bring it to life for people, make it legible?

So, you know, there's so many dots you're connecting for me. I love going through these one by one. Uh, also this is really helpful.

David Grossman: Yeah. No, me too. Me too. So the last one then is empowering teams to meet the moment. So good leaders build trust when things are going well. They often default to micromanagement when things ar- aren't going as well.

Not always, but, but sometimes. So exceptional leaders proactively look at and think about the wellbeing of their folks, [00:38:00] about their workloads, about their boundaries. We just talked about career development. I would put that in that, you know, category as well. Exceptional leaders are m- uh, modeling good work-life balance and ensuring that their ac- actions are following their words as well.

Anne Green: That's great. That's great. You know, it's, reading the book And looking at the different, even the six differentiators, what very much struck me is that this kind of heart-centered or heart-forward heart and head, which is what you do talk about in here, the, the two of them, this is not a binary, it's a both/and, does not feel like it's currently in vogue, so to speak.

There is a hardness to the dialogue, and I think it has to do with the current US administration and just sort of the trickle-down of some of the culture around that. There's, um, there's kind of a bit of a, um... It's, it's, it's cliché, but sort of a hyper-masculinity in terms of how people might see that in, in leadership.

I feel like it trickles down a bit and, you know, there's a lot of implications to [00:39:00] this. It's sort of the approach of a doge, um, or it reminds me very much of the Jack Welsh era of GE. Again, an amazing leader in some ways and a very hard leader in others. And, um, I'm not a rocks in glass houses kind of person, but I had clients in the GE ecosystem in the early '90s, so I saw the impact of that kind of leadership firsthand So I feel in some ways your book is taking this in a very different direction, and I j- I just love your thoughts on this because as you said, the research points to much of what you're saying in terms of what it means to have exceptional leadership that actually leads to business results and outcome, and is very much quantitative as well as qualitative.

But what, what's your reaction to almost having a counter-narrative today?

David Grossman: Yeah. Well, I think, y- you know, the evince- evidence isn't new necessarily, and it's for sure not i- ideological. I mean, you know, m- my point of view is very much based on, on the research, and we're seeing in the media today, [00:40:00] Anne, a lot of conversation about sort of hardcore, hardcore CEOs.

And I think hardcore from a situational, uh, perspective is often needed. It's like, look, we've all seen organizations that, um, the market changes, or customers change, or there gets to be complacency, and some hard decisions need to be made inside the organization. I, I get it, I appreciate it. You know, I see that we help organizations through those times.

But when it becomes a default, I think that's when there's fallout when it comes to hardcore. Now, on the other end of the spectrum, you know, the idea of just focusing on psychological safety is... and not business results at the same time is not where we wanna be either. And so what's really not being talked about here is this invisible gap with good leaders that you and I are talking about today, [00:41:00] how employees are feeling, where there are gaps, and where we as leaders can step forward in different kinds of ways to meet their needs and get the results then that I think all of us want.

Anne Green: Yeah, and it, another thing that's in the culture right now is this idea of founder mode, where you're gonna come in and just drive and run everything, which gets into the micromanaging piece. And,

Steve Halsey: and absolutely, I agree that

Anne Green: this does not have to be a binary. We need real business acumen. We need to be ready to make hard decisions.

We need to be clear in our own minds about it, but we also need to understand the power of how we relate to others. And it's interesting because some of what you're talking about here reminded me of something that we're working on in my organization. I, I want to embrace the idea, and I've asked our teams to embrace the idea and explore the idea that we can be both high performance and highly human.

And actually, in your introduction you talk about, um, balance technological advancements such as AI [00:42:00] with human connection, balance productivity with wellbeing and reasonable boundaries, balance business results while also promoting personal growth for employees, and I under that- underline that, like, starred it 17 times because that to me is what I'm hoping to embrace with the both/and of high performance and highly human.

But what is your reaction to that kind of idea?

David Grossman: Yeah. No, I, I, I think it's perfect, and it, it's exactly what's needed today. I think about it as leading with your heart and your head. So it's not an either/or. It is that both/and, and it's knowing when to flex which approach, and not also relying on one approach as your, like, dominant default style.

So one of the pieces of research that we haven't talked about yet that I think would be helpful here is when we looked at the attributes of exceptional leaders, nine out of the top 10 are heart-focused. Number 10, by the way, the head-focused is leads with [00:43:00] transparency. And what's so interesting about this data is you may recall Google did a study, 2009 or so.

They called it Project Oxygen. They admitted they were trying to demonstrate that te- at this point that technical skills were more important than managerial skills, so that they looked at managers and markers and technical, uh, folks and sort of the markers. And what they found is high-performing managers had better engagement, better retention, and better results.

And when they looked at what are those markers, nine out of the top 10 were what they called soft skills. So this is several decades ago. Different time, different methodology, but the same results we're seeing here, Anne. And for me it says we're still not investing in these skills. And w- one other thing.

I need to get on my soapbox for just one minute if you'll allow me.

Anne Green: Oh, please.

David Grossman: I want to retire the word soft [00:44:00] Soft skills. Because today, these are really hard skills. Given the rise of AI and everything we talked about today, these skills are some of the hardest to acquire and some of the hardest to do and execute predictably.

So my wish is, let's retire soft skills. Let's call them what they are, which is human skills that are so essential today and more needed in the workplace than ever before.

Anne Green: It's so funny, David. You literally took the words out of my mouth. When I was gonna chime in, I was going to say, um, soft skills are anything but.

And I joke sometimes with my colleagues that, um, there's a reason Harvard Business Review makes so much money. It's because managing is extraordinarily difficult. And we talk sometimes at our firm at, uh, that the business is a tapestry. All the threads are interwoven and interconnected, and you need to tease them apart and see them individually, but understand how they knit together.

And the idea of managing people, [00:45:00] being a manager, being a leader, has so many component parts to it, so many threads to it, that I agree. And, um, I think it's very interesting to hear the dialogue around AI from so many quarters that- In some ways, I just heard Ezra Klein interview the philosopher and tech pioneer Stewart Brand.

Um, and Stewart was saying, you know, he's in his 80s now, but he's seen so much develop. But he was saying that he feels like AI will teach us much more about what it means to be human than, than anything technological, and we're going to learn those skills that are really unique and powerful, and a lot of it does come to a lot of things you've been talking about.

So I, I find that very timely right now in that AI discussion.

David Grossman: Yeah, th- and n- no question about it. I, I mean, you know, people who don't use AI well are going to replace people who do use AI well. And I think there's a corollary that people that are human are going to replace people who aren't [00:46:00] human in the future, because it's those human skills that help us implement AI effectively and/or it's the human skills that AI can't do that only we can do.

So I, I think about it like there's this human moat, if you will. With the rise of AI, as AI becomes and commoditizes so many of these head skills, there's this human moat, and these are the skills that today, and you said this so well a few minutes ago, and I love the tapestry and threads that we need to pull on, that we need to think about how do we gain these skills, and then how do we start to use them more consistently and predictably inside the workplace?

And just one note on predictability, because that's super important. I just wanted to just touch on it. So as we're implementing these human skills to the extent we as leaders can become predictable, so our people aren't guessing what we're thinking, what we're going [00:47:00] to do next. You know, can we become predictable that I'm going to hear you, I'm going to see you, I'm going to create a safe environment, I'm going to help you continue to develop.

That's what's needed, too, with these three gaps.

Anne Green: Well, and that's powerful because you become the source and that foundation of predictability within the unpredictable world, where at least from a behavior standpoint, it's not that That sense of, "Oh, I'm, I'm not certain," or on the extreme end, "I feel like I'm gonna be gaslit," or some negative thing.

Yeah.

David Grossman: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I f- I, I feel like, like our, our job is to create some stability with our folks who are bringing this emotional weight into the workplace and dealing with all of this uncertainty, and that means we have to figure out and take care of ourselves first. That's the old oxygen mask, um, idea.

So then we can, you know, take care of our people who are going to deliver or not on our plans and strategies and goals.

Anne Green: So I wanna wrap up today. You started, I asked you to [00:48:00] tell people what to listen for, and now as we end, what are a few actionable things, you know, aside from getting the book. Get the book, folks.

Read the book. I, I found it to be very rich. You can open it almost anywhere and learn something, especially because we didn't even get into all the anecdotes and stories from the other senior leaders you read, a lot of whom I know, so that was fun. But what are one or two or maybe three things, David, that you would love people to think about, um, doing, adopting, taking on?

David Grossman: So maybe let me give you two from a senior leadership and then one just from a leader perspective. One is I feel like, um, we need to get data. We need to get data around how are we doing today when it comes to filling these gaps, and engagement data is lagging. We need some leading indicators around change initiatives and, and how are they, uh, faring around, um, sort of voluntary attrition and, and other sets of data that we, we have, just w- you know, we need to look at that.

That would be one. The second [00:49:00] is to classify leadership development as risk management, much like regulatory compliance or cybersecurity. You know, can we think about it not as this need to build that's budgeted, but rather what we're talking about is risk management today as we're filling those gaps and helping leaders with all these skills that are needed that they don't quite have today that are gonna help us into the future, including, by the way, help us implement AI successfully.

Because if our folks don't feel heard, our folks don't feel seen or aren't reaching their potential, we are not going to effectively implement AI in our organizations, 'cause we're not gonna be hearing or seeing or getting the data that we need to make it successful. And then I think for leaders, I come back to this idea of gratitude and sort of personal recognition, not just for the work that someone is doing, but for, you know, who they are and how [00:50:00] they're helping us get to wherever we need to go.

I think that's one of the most powerful things we can do. It's free. We can do it tomorrow. Hopefully, we do it several times today, tomorrow, and then beyond.

Anne Green: Well, and it really makes your own life, both as a leader and as a human in the world, much richer and more glass half full. I mean, and, and I am in turn grateful for your time.

This is amazing.

David Grossman: I was gonna say the exact same to you.

Anne Green: Yeah, I love having the podcast to have conversations that I really feel matter, and this is a very important one. So David, thanks for your time, and congratulations on the success of the book so far.

David Grossman: Thank you. I'm, I'm been just thrilled by the reception and e- excited, and, and, you know, I'm, I'm hoping we can help leaders continue to build the skills that are needed, and that we can make the, you know, workplace better, and that we'll, we're all gonna feel g- you know, even better about what we do between 9:00 to 5:00 or 9:00 to 7:00 or what- whatever our sort of work days look like.

When... And we can do it together.

Anne Green: I agree. [00:51:00] Well, as always, we invite our listeners to share feedback. You know, hit us up on LinkedIn or by email. And there's been a lot of great episodes this season, so if you've missed some, be sure to check them out, and thanks again for listening to Building Brand Gravity.

[00:00:00]

Bradley Akubuiro: This cultural political divide that we've seen has just been in our faces every single day, and it shapes everything that we do. You almost can't have a conversation in this country without realizing that folks are on very, very different sides of almost every conversation. And so that really creates an application to how we communicate, not only with our customers, but frankly, even with our employees.

Steve Halsey: Welcome to Building Brand Gravity. I'm Steve Halsey.

Anne Green: And I'm Anne Green.

Steve Halsey: And today, Anne, we're talking crisis communications, which only makes sense given the insanity of today's operating environment for most organizations. And, you know, just thinking about all the factors that are in play right now, the interconnected nature of business in the world at large, the [00:01:00] speed that information travels, the ever-growing numbers of channels, changing expectations of stakeholders, polarizations in many countries and cultures.

Those are a few, but of course we can't forget our favorite, we can't do Building Brand Gravity without talking about the impact of AI. It's a lot to take on for even our most experienced leaders today.

Anne Green: Yeah, I agree, Steve. You know, I feel like it's never been a more important moment for leaders and organizations to reexamine what they know about managing through a crisis, and also to seek best practices that really meet this moment.

Um, happily, in a little while we're gonna have an expert joining the pod to help us think through this. I got to have, earlier this week, a truly excellent and wide-ranging discussion with Bradley Akabiro, who's a nationally recognized expert on corporate reputation and crisis communications. He's a partner at the agency Bully Pulpit International, which many may have heard of.

He's a friend of us, ours through the Page [00:02:00] Society, and Bradley is the author of a brand new book titled Faster, Messier, Tougher: Crisis Communication Strategies in an Era of Populism, AI, and Distrust. Super timely.

Steve Halsey: Very, very much so. Well, well, before we dive into your fascinating conversation with Bradley that, that our, our, our viewers are gonna absolutely love, I thought maybe we could start off by both sharing some observations on, on just the changing crisis and risk landscape, and the kind of advice that we're each giving our clients today, because I know it's a topic that you're actively engaged in and, and I seem to be more and more these days.

Anne Green: I think, um, the big thing I've been thinking about now is what it means to live your values as a corporation as well as a leader individually. And Bradley and I got right into this conversation The, the issue is a company cannot navigate a challenging situation effectively without knowing what [00:03:00] values are most central to their business, as well as which of them are most closely tied to their operational goals and really freedom to operate, you know?

And not all values are important, but not all of them are built the same depending on what the crisis is. And I, I think that this sounds easy, but it's, it's harder than, than just the surface of it, right? Everyone knows that companies should be rooted in their values and be crystal clear on what they stand for.

We hear that advice all the time, especially in this moment of polarization. But Steve, you and I have both seen too often, unfortunately, that the time and effort it takes to clarify that across senior leadership, then build understanding and buy-in across all operating units or geographies, and then to make it legible to staff no matter what their role, well, that level of work is often not pursued.

It takes consistency. It might be taken on partially, but it really needs consistency and depth. And especially in this environment when polarization makes [00:04:00] many organizations wanna kind of what keep their heads below the proverbial parapet, you know, sort of hide behind the hedge. So when a true crisis flies out of left field, unfortunately there's no time to backtrack and build this kind of foundation.

And the key is taking time to, as Bradley says, and I love this quote, "Know where you stand so you can then stand there." Simple words, but to me, very, very wise.

Steve Halsey: Yeah. I, I like that a lot, Anne, and, and, you know, really couldn't agree more. You know, so much of the hard work of crisis preparedness goes much deeper and wider than whatever plan is created.

You know, it's kind of like that concept we've been talking about of corporate narrative as your operating system. That really is truly fundamental because the best laid plan that sits on the shelf or somewhere in your hard drive is, is no good if it just doesn't become an innate part of how you, how you, uh, just work.

So here's kind of what I've been thinking about on the crisis [00:05:00] front. You know, one of the biggest shifts right now Is that in many cases, the large language models are really becoming the first responders in, in a crisis. And, you know, I've written about that in a, in a number of industry bylines because before the company issues a statement, before any journalist writes a story, basically before humans are actively involved in assessing what the heck is going on here, the large language models are already starting to synthesize what's happening, summarizing it, shaping, pulling from what's out there- Mm-hmm

to try and understand the situations the best they can. So that means that your reputation isn't just what you say at the moment. It's really that system that you have in place and what that says about you, because that's what's being pulled into the large language model, and it really raises the bar for preparation.

Um, and we're seeing this right now in, uh, one of the crisis situations we're, we're [00:06:00] consulting on right now, because the reality is, if your narrative isn't clear, consistent, well-distributed across your digital footprint already, AI's gonna fill in the gaps. And this is really important. If you don't audit and you leave that old information out there, guess what's gonna be found?

Guess what's gonna be up there in the AI summary? It's gonna be that older information that's gonna be referenced. And unfortunately, once that initial interpretation takes hold, as you know, it's very, very hard to unwind, to move that needle. So, so increasingly, we're advising clients to really think about crisis readiness, not just in terms of that response when something happens, but what is that pre-response that you wanna think about and get out there ahead of time?

And so it really comes down to, um, really what I'd call a four-step checklist that I'm giving clients right now, which is number one, [00:07:00] are you clear on your core narrative and as you said, the values, and are they consistently expressed and findable? 'Cause if you have values but you don't make them findable, it becomes really difficult to believe that you're truly living those every day.

Number two, do you have credible, high-quality content that really reinforces that narrative across trusted channels? Number three, and this is important, are your executives and subject matters experts visible in everyday communication, and is that visibility aligned with what you wanna be communicated about your values?

And then finally, do all these signals connect in a way that becomes easy, not just for people, but for the machines to interpret? Because in this environment, if you haven't shaped the narrative, it's gonna be shaped for you.

Anne Green: I couldn't agree. I co-sign on all of that, Steve. I think those fundamentals are excellent, those checklist.

I know we're actually, you know, working on it [00:08:00] for ourselves. We, we have to turn this skill set to ourselves as a group and as our two agencies, and we're working with many of our clients on these questions. And I think we also, you, I, and many others need to keep evangelizing regarding what is required here.

I think Bradley is absolutely doing the same. So, and you know, this whole conversation also reminds me of the discussion around confidence and trust in business that you had on an earlier episode of the podcast, and that was focused on the Page and Harris Poll, um, Confidence in Business Index. So if folks haven't listened to that one yet, I also highly recommend it.

Steve Halsey: Yep, lots of points of connection here, but I think we ought to get to your conversation with Bradley, Anne.

Anne Green: I'm so happy to welcome Bradley Acabura to this podcast. Hey, Bradley. How are you? Hey,

Bradley Akubuiro: Anne. How you doing?

Anne Green: I'm good. I'm good. I'm here on the occasion talking to you about your book- Wow ... which I have here.

I love the artifact. And as we discussed, the title is not just printed here, it's printed here. Yes. So [00:09:00] kudos to you for insisting on that, because those jacket, dust jacket removers like me, the branding has to be right, Bradley, right?

Bradley Akubuiro: I, well, I, I love that you and I have the same mentality on this.

Anne Green: Yeah, when I took it off, I was like, "That's so smart.

Everyone should do that." Anyway, I'm thrilled to have you. Congratulations on the book. How does it feel to have it out there in the world? It feels

Bradley Akubuiro: great. It feels great. I mean, I think, you know, the way that the world feels right now can be a little chaotic. It was a little chaotic trying to work through this book.

In some ways it was cathartic, though, uh, because I was able to make sense of what I was seeing and feeling. Uh, but now having it out has just sparked so many great discussions, and I'm having a great time with it.

Anne Green: That's awesome. So I'm gonna get a little bit into your introduction, but I'm, I'm trying to make sure that I follow good communications principles.

So I'm trying to start each interview now by asking my guest to tell our listeners what to listen for, as we have a pretty wide-ranging discussion. And by the way, [00:10:00] you know, we had a prep call. We could talk about a million things for hours. There's so much in the book, and just in general. But what are the couple of things you want listeners to be really listening for as we get into this conversation?

Bradley Akubuiro: Yeah, I had someone actually stop me and ask me, you know, to explain this book in, in 20 words or less. Um, and I think I probably got right on the line and, and the way that I describe this is you can no longer please everyone, and in fact, you are going to upset many people with almost any decision that you make.

So you have to identify the people that matter the most to what you're trying to accomplish, and then get tough about tuning out the noise. So- That's great ... yeah, I, I, I will say that when you go through this book, you will find many different stories. You will have lots of different elements, particularly kinda conversations around polarization and, and populism, uh, around the advent of AI and what that's meant as a disruptor and an enabler.

You will find so [00:11:00] many conversations around how to really narrow your audience. Um, at the end of the day, what I hope people take away is that we actually need to be comfortable in the discomfort of the moment that we're in, and we've gotta push through, because the things we need to accomplish don't change because the environment has.

Anne Green: I think that's so well said. And, and just for those who don't have the book in hand, Faster, Messier, Tougher: Crisis Communication Strategies in an Era of Populism, AI, and Distrust. So, you know, I wanna backtrack now to you've had a really diverse career. You're right now a partner at Bully Pulpit International and an expert in corporate comms, and I'm looking at your dust jacket here.

But you've been on the corporate side at Boeing and what used to be called United Technologies, UTC. You've worked, um, with Reverend Jesse Jackson Sr., which I am sure was quite an extraordinary experience. You've counseled all kinds of folks as a consultant, including world governments. And to me, um, that career is quite rich, and it means that [00:12:00] you have a lens that's really more like a prism, right?

So you got a lot of facets there. You can turn it and turn it and see a different surface. And I assume that brings you a lot of different perspectives. As you think about the evolution of corporate comms and crisis, how has that prism of a career, if that resonates for you, informed, um, what you're thinking about in terms of crisis today?

Bradley Akubuiro: It, it does resonate, Anna. Actually, I think it's one of the best ways that you could capture that concept. You know, I've had a lot of different perspectives that have influenced the way that I see the world, um, and it's been extraordinarily helpful. You know, I, I talk in this book a little bit about a episode actually at United Technologies where we were, uh, our CEO was on the American Manufacturing Council, uh, that was led by the White House during the first Trump administration.

Um, and I talk about kind of the race to figure out what we would do, um, when, uh, Charlottesville, when the episode in Charlottesville happened, uh, [00:13:00] and every company was trying to figure out, do you continue to engage with this council or do you not? And one of the stories that's in this book is about this small group of, uh, communications leaders that kinda came together, myself included, um, and others at a few different companies that were also trying to figure this out in real time.

And I will say the perspective of having a political background, having a communications, particularly corporate reputation background, um, the real kind of employee insights, um, and the real advocacy, uh, lens that I was bringing to the conversation, uh, was extraordinarily helpful in a moment where the world was being turned upside down.

Uh, the things that we were dealing with in that moment to make the decision, uh, were so much more than how is this gonna look on the front page of the news tomorrow. And I think being able to bring those perspectives to bear when you're thinking through how do we navigate these true trust-related, uh, issues is so important, and I think it's only gonna become more important as we start [00:14:00] walking further and further into this, um, disputed trust kinda society.

Anne Green: I love that story because it's also a story about finding community in your peers. Um, you and I met through a community like that, Page, and, and through other venues and, um, in this kind of volatile environment, and that certainly was an example of that. I remember that time well, and it was very interesting to see the kind of stories you share in the book, and that one especially with Charlottesville.

And I remember that whole story about these councils and who's gonna say what, and I can-- You talk in there about the pressure for media to respond, to respond, to respond, and I love the fact that, you know, you were able to tap into others who were in a similar situation. Not everyone made the same decision.

As, as you say in the book, not every company went the same route. But you were able to kinda tap into that, um, that brain trust. But why this book and why now? You know, there's, there's, there's all, uh, the, the world has been plenty interesting [00:15:00] for a while now, but what made you feel compelled to write this to, you know, at this time?

Bradley Akubuiro: Yeah. Well, a few things. I think the world has been interesting for quite some time now. I think the pace of change that we're seeing in the world has accelerated so dramatically over the last few years that it almost felt like it was time you had to put a marker in the ground and say, "Here's what we've seen over the last few years that has brought us to this point, and here is how we have to operate differently, uh, to be able to engage, uh, and frankly, survive in the crisis of today."

And so one of the big factors around this was the acceleration we saw around COVID. Um, there were a few things that changed pretty dramatically, but that include some of the gaps that are created around common fault lines, uh, that are really, really important for us to pay attention to. The economic divide has only widened, and the s- disparity between haves and have-nots has grown as a result.

Uh, we have seen just an absolute, um, expansion of the technological divide with the advent of, of AI in the form that [00:16:00] it's at today and the accessibility that it's at, and the ability to create, uh, credible disinformation with the speed and scale with which we can today, um, has absolutely exploded. Uh, this cultural political divide that we've seen has just been in our faces every single day, and it shapes everything that we do.

You almost can't have a conversation in this country, uh, without realizing that folks are on very, very different sides of almost every conversation. And so that really creates an application to how we communicate, not only with our customers, which I think consumer companies, uh, have been feeling for some time, but frankly, even with our employees, um, our regulus- uh, regulators and policymakers, um, and with our stakeholders across the board.

Uh, and so for us to really pay attention to these things is so important, and how people get information in this information divide is, is really critical. You know, um, nearly half of people under the age of 30 in this country are receiving [00:17:00] their information, uh, from social media. Um, you know, when you start to think about just the sources of information, they're so different, and that's before you even get into the lenses that are put on this information, uh, when people do receive it.

Uh, and so I know you mentioned the institutional trust piece. That divide has only int- increased as well. I think we have seen a decline in institutional trust for quite some time. Um, what we have seen is a precipitous drop-off over the last couple of years. And so why now? I think because the world is a different world than we operated in before COVID, and I think the moment that we have right now is gonna determine who are the brands and who are the leaders that are able to champion a future, um, that is, uh, unfortunately, in this faster, uh, messier, and tougher world, uh, really able to kind of put together, um, a, a regime that allows them to be successful.

Um, and it requires different actions from each of us.

Anne Green: Yeah, and there's, there's so much to [00:18:00] unpack here. I'm, I'm excited. I know other leaders in our space listening to this have 17 ways they would want me to go right now. But the first thing I'd love to do, because this really caught my attention, is, um, Bradley, what is a crisis?

We all think we know what the word is, but I feel like in crisis communications, the very first thing we have to do is figure that out, and I'll tell you a very quick story, and then I, I want you to answer the question. I remember years ago, remember the Domino's food tampering video from years ago where there were employees putting cheese up their nose and very unsavory things, right?

And Domino's really came down like wrath of God. You know, they found the employees, they fired them. The CEO did a video, and there was like... They did a lot. And I remember hearing the Domino's marketing chief, I've told this story like 1,000 times to colleagues. I remember hearing them speak at an event, might've been Association of National Advertisers or, or something else, and, and his quote was, "We didn't know if we were putting out a candle with a fire hose."[00:19:00]

And that to me is, I just can't get over how apt that is. So in the context of that story and in the context of your book, what is a crisis and why does it matter that we can interpret whether it is or not?

Bradley Akubuiro: Yeah. Well, look, I think that's such a really, really great, uh, way of thinking about this because it's so hard to know, uh, particularly in the initial moments.

Um, I, I wanna come back to how you can figure out in a second, but to define your, your, your question around what crisis is, it is something that impacts your license to operate or your ability to operate, and usually within a strict near-term time period, right? If this thing goes wrong, this thing blows up, is it going to keep me from being able to operate within the next 90 days?

Um, and I typically put it into a few camps. You know, does it invite, uh, policy or regulatory scrutiny in a meaningful, disruptive way? Does it impact your market or commercial, uh, commercial, uh, [00:20:00] context? Uh, or does it impact your employees' ability to get their job done? Uh, and so if you think about it from one of those perspectives and it doesn't do one of those things, I think there is a large onus on you to figure out whether there is an engagement that is required at the level that you're describing with Domino's.

Um, but if it has the ability to do one of those things, it really is incumbent upon us to move swiftly and decisively to shut it down.

Anne Green: Yeah, that's a great answer, and I know you distinguish between that and things that are an issue, and there are many, many issues. I mean, the, the arrange and diverse array of issues, the issues landscape, as people might say, is huge.

But it was helpful to me in reading the book of really asking myself and interrogating again, what is, um, both the quantitative and qualitative, uh, ways I assess what is truly moving into a crisis? And h- and, and it's, it's obviously moves back and forth. You know, it can evolve from an issue to a crisis.

Bradley Akubuiro: That's exactly right. And it is worth noting, I mean, as you're [00:21:00] trying to figure out what are the things that have the likelihood of being able to do that, it's so important to take stock of what your vulnerabilities are. You know, we all have them, both as organizations and as individuals, and the key is not to, to become perfect.

It's not possible to become perfect, right? But we have to understand where those vulnerabilities exist and then figure out what are the things that I need to do, A, to inoculate against them, but B, when a, uh, what is a critical action is taken against your organization, whether it is true or it is false or it is self-inflicted, um, to determine whether this is gonna become a crisis or not.

Typically speaking, the things that fall into an area of vulnerability for you, um, those direct hits, those have the tendency to become not only crises, but often very fast-moving, um, and have some virality to them. Uh, those that strike you in places where you're strong are less likely to become that. And so we really have to take really true stock [00:22:00] of, of who we are, uh, and, and where we have those vulnerabilities to understand, you know, where is the damage likely to be done.

Anne Green: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. You know, I-- when you and I were preparing for this, I was thinking about the landscape today and, and I've been watching obviously these lawsuits regarding social media, the infinite scroll, and, and that phrase came back to me, the infinite scroll of crisis or the infinite scroll of issues, and it feels like that, and it's not just social media feeds anymore.

And you know, I, I think that one of the learnings that jumped out to me, 'cause I absolutely... I mean, we do in media training, we say, "Know what is not your story." You phrased it not, I have the notes here, "Not every crisis that impacts you is your cross to bear or your thing to carry." You talk about the trap here for, um- For comms folks and their leaders, I mean, I think it's very easy to get caught up, right?

Bradley Akubuiro: It's so easy. It's extremely easy to get caught up. Um, and I will say there, there are, you know, maybe two stories that I would tell about this, and, and one [00:23:00] I think, um, is, uh, apropos to kind of some of the United Technology stuff we were talking about a minute ago. Um, we had a, uh, very powerful senator. The book is, uh, uh, quick to art- articulate kind of a little bit more detail on this, but I hope you'll read it.

Uh, the, uh, uh, senator had called out the company from the Senate floor in a floor speech. Uh, and instantly, as you can imagine, every leader in, in the company was like, "Hey, we gotta do something about this." Uh, and the reality is when we actually looked at the data, um, in that particular instance, uh, in that particular format, uh, there was a huge spike in terms of conversation around it that lasted probably about 15 minutes, and then it dropped off.

And we did not actually have any more engagement almost at all, um, from those who were within kind of the target orbit of stakeholders we had to care about in the Beltway in that moment. Uh, and so had we [00:24:00] leaned in and had a statement or tried to correct the record or do something meaningful in that moment in response, not only would we not have helped the situation, but we would've actually added fuel to the fire and created a news cycle where there was none.

Uh, and so it's so important to understand, it doesn't mean you don't have any engagement. Of course, we wanted to work with the senator's office and, and do these things behind the scenes. But when you're thinking about what engagement is required, you wanna match it to the level of risk that is posed by the action in front of you.

Um, and so, you know, I, I, I, I will say in context of today, almost every company that's moving products is impacted by the shutdown of the Strait of Hormuz. Um, I, I wrote this article for the, uh, Economic Times of India, uh, about 10 days ago or so, um, or I shouldn't say 10 days ago 'cause we're gonna do this later, so let me take a step back on this.

I wrote this article for the Economic Times of India recently that talked about the challenge that a lot of companies are [00:25:00] facing, which is your ability to move products around the world is impacted significantly by a war that's going on in a region that you may not operate in, you may not have employees in, you may not actually have any engagement that's direct in, and yet your supply chain, your ability to logistically move your products around the world has been impacted significantly.

And so you have a question that you have to answer internally, is this something that I need to communicate around? And the answer may be yes to some stakeholders. They may wanna understand why your prices have increased. They may wanna understand why delivery windows have increased. They may wanna understand what are you doing to create additional sources, um, so that you are not, uh, having so much exposure, uh, in this instance.

Uh, and you have to decide what you're gonna communicate and when you're gonna communicate, or if you are gonna communicate at all. You know, reporters will often reach out to a bunch of companies and say, "How is this [00:26:00] impacting you?" And the fact that they've reached out to you, and the fact that there are impacts, does not mean that it's your story to own and that you need to have something to say about it.

But the important thing is really understanding what is your level of exposure, and which of your stakeholders are gonna care significantly about hearing from you. And if the best way to reach them is individually, do that, but if the best way to reach them in a meaningful, uh, and, and kind of trust-building, uh, uh, way is to do something that's a little bit more public, then consider your options for that.

But you have to weigh them, frankly, on a case-by-case basis with these types of issues.

Anne Green: I, I love the way you're looking at this discussion, because I think you and I have both seen, and, you know, I'm not a rocks in glass houses person. I know how difficult it is to operate. I've, you know, hundreds and hundreds of clients like you have in, in every different kind of situation.

But I think it-- there's so many crisis plans out there where they're a RACI, you know, who's responsible, who's accountable. There are risk grading, you know, [00:27:00] frameworks. Um, all of the tools are there, all the players, and yet what really happens in the moment in a very qualitative and human way when you get into the idea of risk grading, and where does it, the bias of that sort of, you know, body feeling of com- getting attacked, you know, each individual and the, the leadership, like what it feels in your mind and body, and the anxiety it creates to be attacked, and how responsive you are to that.

And I feel like a lot of that discipline either hasn't been practiced to the depth it needs to and really unpacked, like really unpacked. What does it mean to grade risk? What does it mean to understand that there are issues coming at us, but not all of them are commensurate? And when does our best quantitative and qualitative data and best practices tell us that reacting will help, you know, mitigate or reacting will actually amplify?

I mean, these things are just not really practiced and discussed at the depth. And I see you smiling 'cause I know you're on the same [00:28:00] page. But I, I, I hope that this is a clarion call, you know, to folks who engage with your book to think about how nuanced these things are, right?

Bradley Akubuiro: Yeah. Well, I, I hope so too.

You know, the reality is it is extremely difficult to do these things. Um, and so, you know, to your point on, on rocks and glass houses, we all have to have a little bit of grace, um, not only within our own organizations, but for others. Uh, that said, there are ways that we can get really sharp at doing these things and, and frankly, the number one way is to practice it.

Um, you have to put the scenarios together where you feel, hey, if this happens, it's gonna be a real issue for us. A lot of these scenarios are knowable, not all of them. A lot of them are knowable, though. And so to really put people in these simulations, recreate the stress, I specifically encourage people to, to take the tone that you would take in a real crisis, because we know we can be very, very polite in simulations, and in the moment it doesn't feel that way in the [00:29:00] room.

And so let's actually kind of put on the, the, the mask and do it the way that we would do it, because you'll need to if you wanna be able to break the s- the, the thing before, uh, the moment comes where you have to.

Anne Green: Yeah, I wrote a piece a number of years ago about that famous quote from the, the CEO of BP at the time with the Gulf, you know, um, the, the well, you know, that was polluting the Gulf.

And, and he said, "No one wants my life back more than me." And that, that's maybe not exactly the comment. He was just ripped apart and all the comms leaders were like, "How could you do that?" And I wrote a piece about the fact of we need to pay attention, and I'm not saying it was great, it's not great, but that was a real human reaction.

And what you need to do as a senior comms leader is to understand that emotional and psychological aspects of your leader and yourself and what happens under pressure. So that, that's just me really co-signing. There, there is that deeply human aspect to this, and before we again throw those rocks, we have to say, "Wow, that was a really honest reaction.

Not [00:30:00] optimal, but, but very real, so what do we do about that?"

Bradley Akubuiro: You know, I teach these classes, uh, for executive education classes amongst others, uh, over at Northwestern University. And, and one of the things that I do on a regular basis is ask communications leaders who come in to take these classes to actually sit in the hot seat.

Um, we ask them to actually get in a studio that's a fully operational studio and sit behind the desk, uh, with a broadcast anchor, whether that's myself or, or an actual, you know, person in the broadcast media orbit now, and we grill them. We ask them the tough questions after we've had that, you know, opportunity to put the scenarios together.

And they usually don't see it coming 'cause they're expecting somebody else to come in and do it. But asking them to sit there and do this, I will tell you, to a person, the feedback is always, "I am so glad I had the opportunity to see what it feels like with the lights in my eyes and the grilling questions coming, because the thing that I said is not at all what I thought I [00:31:00] would've said.

And of course, if I was sitting on, you know, the other side of the desk, I'd say, 'How could that person say that?' Well, now I know." Um, and I think it's just so important for us to understand what it feels like, to your point, to sit in those seats as we're counseling people. Um, and that knowledge, I think, makes us better communicators and better leaders.

Anne Green: Yeah, and Troy, you know, in my role as a, as CEO of our firm and a spokesperson, but also a, a trainer, um, and a coach, I love taking my own medicine, and I try to tell people that I do. So I wanna go to an area that, to me, I've been thinking about for a number of years, and, and you brought up some very-- I'm looking at my notes here.

The idea of unprovable truth, that we're in this place. I remember saying to colleagues years ago, if we're in a pro- post-truth situation here where we're gonna interpret it, confirmation bias, whatever is convenient, and also it w- that was even well before the channel, you know, algorithmic issue where people are only seeing...

It's like we're in alternate realities. [00:32:00] You know, how do we do our job as communicators that we usually use fact and to shape perception? But the unprovable truth to me got even more interesting when you talked about building trust. It's obviously foundational for organizations. But you had a couple quotes here, "Trust is the real moat," and that, "Truth and trust are different currencies.

In crisis, facts are important, but trust is king." I think this really gets at the heart of what we're struggling with as leaders, as communications professionals, and also broader in society. Tell me what that means, that truth and trust are different currencies.

Bradley Akubuiro: Yeah. When I think about truth, I think about kind of the concepts of, of facts and what's, you know, reality from your perspective and, and, you know, facts win arguments, but trust actually wins you the benefit of the doubt, and the benefit of the doubt is actually what saves you in situations where the story moves faster than the facts, right?

And I think [00:33:00] we're in a moment right now where so many times the truth is something that we are searching for, we are seeking it out, we are going to our, if we're a manufacturing company, going to our engineering teams and trying to understand what went wrong where, how do we identify what the root cause is.

And all of those things are extremely important, and our stakeholders expect us to get to them. But what they need to know even before they know that is that you have the situation under control, and they can trust you to manage through it. If you can't convince them of that, then you fail way before you get to the root cause, right?

And what I think is really important, and you alluded to this even in the question, is, you know, studies show that about 70% of Americans are only consuming news sources that reaffirm their own worldview. And so if you're now trying to figure out what are the ways that I can talk to somebody to meet them where they're at, it isn't gonna be by winning the argument through facts.

It is gonna be about actually talking to them in terms that they can [00:34:00] understand, um, and that they will be able to say, "All right, this person gets how I see the world enough so that I'm willing to hear them out." And that ability to have a conversation with people is something that I think is becoming more and more of a lost art form.

But it's not only true for us as individuals as we're engaging in our lives, it is true for businesses and organizations writ large that need to figure out how to communicate with a populace that is so divided, and frankly, more divided than it's been at any other time in our contemporary history.

Anne Green: It's so helpful to tease these apart because I do think those of us who've been in this field a long time, or even younger folks too, client side, agency side, whatever, there's this deep feeling of, "This is a fact.

This book is solid. Look, it's real. You know, this is, this is a real thing. Why aren't you listening to me?" And, and we've all now very, very much understood the polarization of channels, the impact of algorithms. I th- I, I believe social media, AI too, it's the best and worst of us. Humans [00:35:00] create it. It's-- I always joke it's utopia, garbage fire, and everything in between.

So just because It's social media and the algorithm doesn't mean it's all bad, but I think we are seeing the impact of it. Um, AI is gonna make that worse, as you've said. It's, AI is going to be incredible in so many ways, and I'm dealing with this with my own staff and with our clients, and we as a society, that mental load of AI, dealing with both the amazing opportunity and the really dark stuff.

As we're recording this podcast, we're seeing growing evidence of just a lot of negativity in the populace as a whole, and we have a lot of understandings of probably where that came from. The narratives out there are rough. But I do wanna build on this polarization question, because we're gonna put these pieces together, which is interpreting a crisis, interpreting our vulnerabilities, knowing what is critical for you to operate in a s- in a situation that's highly polarized and where people may or may not be accepting a truth, and you have to build trust.

So, [00:36:00] you know, no big deal, Bradley, you're gonna solve this for me right now. But you said at one point, "Conviction pays. Waffling costs everything." And another quote, "People can accept disagreeing with you, but they never accept hypocrisy." So talk a little bit about that, 'cause I think it goes to this question of knowing your values and, and standing in them, but I, I think that's very hard today for organizations.

Bradley Akubuiro: It's extremely hard for organizations. It's extremely hard for people. Um, you know, you and I both appreciate kind of the human psychological elements of the craft, right? And I think it's so important for people to continue to use that as a foundation as they think through so much of this, because, you know, that, that whole point on hypocrisy, I think, is really about human nature.

You know, people actually do find that those who they disagree with, they may trust more, um, because they know that you are solid in your conviction. I, I say this to people all the time, but you actually have to figure out where you stand and then actually stand there. [00:37:00] And the reason for that is because when people see you do that on a regular basis, then they know what to expect from you.

They may not always like it, but they know what to expect from you, and there's a level of respect that comes from that that doesn't exist with people who think you're gonna say whatever you need to say in order to win their vote or to win their, um, uh, appeal. And so I think that's really, really critical in this moment when people end up on so many different sides of these issues.

Um, whatever the issue may be and whatever side they choose, they want to know that you are a person or an organization that's gonna stand by what you say, and that your actions and your words are gonna be aligned, and they're gonna be aligned over time. And so, you know, I, I, you know, you can point to so many different examples, uh, of where this has been true.

I think a great example is Target. You know, we have seen an organization that was known for bringing Black-owned brands into their stores and giving them spaces on shelves, you know, having real strong support for LGBTQ audiences, [00:38:00] um, and found, you know- a rough spot, a hard moment, uh, in the new administration, uh, towards the beginning of 2025, where they scaled back some of their diversity, equity, inclusion policies.

Now, I don't think that the act of scaling it back as a retailer itself was the issue. There were several other organizations that did this at the same time. But it was the fact that people had known them for being an organization that supported those communities where it felt more like a betrayal. And so what I think organizations can take away from that, and, and if you look just, you know, to say it out loud, you know, about $12 billion of lost value later, what you can take away from that is that people will watch what you do more than they watch what you say.

And so when you are a communicator in these rooms and you're telling the business case, uh, for what is a, a, a really difficult decision to stand in your conviction, uh, you do have, [00:39:00] uh, precedent on your side. Organizations that have waffled in these moments are taking massive losses, are experiencing boycotts, are having talent flood out the doors because they can't tell whether leadership is actually aligned with the values that they hold dear.

Uh, and the organizations that are more consistent in those values, whether they are, you know, the Hobby Lobbies or the Chick-fil-As of the world, or the, you know, Patagonias or the Ben & Jerry's of the world or everything in between, those who are consistent and people can read are able to say, "You know what?

This is a place that I can trust." And we come back to that trust question all the time. Um, I would take it one step further and talk about it in terms of resiliency. These are the organizations and the brands that are the most resilient to these changing times because they're the ones that have created, um, a level of, of, of, uh, conviction, um, that builds, uh, that resilience, uh, even when the odds are stacked against you.

Anne Green: Yeah, my colleague Steve Halsey, and we've talked about this a few times on the podcast, the idea [00:40:00] of corporate narrative as an operating system. And we talk about that consistency and not like the little N of narrative, like here's a messaging document, but the big N, that narrative that it's why we operate, it's what we're serving, it's what our values are, it's the whole piece.

I wanna hold on the DEI question, diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, all the different aspects of it, because I think it's a particularly interesting and painful case right now. You know, I want to acknowledge that oftentimes in the past years, as heartening as it was to see these concepts, and I, I think of them as a set of principles and practices, a lens through which we look, but also a way we open the aperture and bring more people in, right?

You know, I think it's often seen as a negative somehow or, or subtractive to people. But it, it's an interesting thing right now because, um, I acknowledge that many companies were not very precise or clear about what they meant by these and, um- When these types of bigger things, whether it's [00:41:00] ESG, DEI, AI, acronyms are, um, just sort of folded into these, like, very flat acronyms, and they're not defined well, and they're sort of applied to things.

It's very easy for it to fall apart. But right now, I think what we're observing, and you've, you've said it really eloquently, is that this is a good case history in where the polarization is really making companies, the way I think about it, is kind of hiding behind the hedge or behind the parapet and sort of keeping their heads down.

And yet there are real consequences to that, and I think it's a good way of examining. We always say to companies and we say to each other, "Hey, you have to know your values and stand in your values." But how do companies do that when it is difficult to do? Um, you know, how do companies overcome their fr- current fear of attacks, say around, you know, something that's been demonized like DEI when their values will tell them that there's aspects of their stakeholders or operations that are, are really material there and real?

I mean, what's, what's your thought about that, [00:42:00] Bradley?

Bradley Akubuiro: Um, there are two ways I can answer this question. Um, I, I think I'm gonna start with the more mechanical answer, uh, and I'll, and I'll go into kind of maybe a, a slightly broader, uh, response that's a bit more philosophical. But, you know, on the mechanical side, I usually use a chart that I think is very instructive.

It's got, you know, uh, the two axes and, and on one axis is alignment, you know, to your strategy, right? Your alignment. And, and two is impact and what you might consider to be interest. And so, you know, traditionally something that's in the top right quadrant on this scale is something that is high alignment to your brand and also, uh, of, of great interest to others.

And the reason why that's a really interesting camp to be in is if you are a company that is, for example, a, a, an aerospace company, uh, and your airliners are looking for lower fuel burn reduction, one, because, you know, the cost implications are pretty significant, particularly in the moment we're [00:43:00] in. Uh, but, uh, also because many of their customers are requesting cleaner air travel in this moment, um, you're gonna continue to talk about sustainability, and it might be a contested subject in some political circles, but it's not gonna be for you because your customer really needs it, and there's a lot of interest in that moment in that space.

And so it has high alignment to your organizational strategy, and so you should be very loud about that. That's a really easy way for you to be able to conceptualize it. Um, whereas for another organization in another industry, that may not be true, and so you may not wanna talk as loudly about it. When we go specifically to the question of diversity, equity, and inclusion, you know, I have traditionally advised people, you know, if this is a value that you have always kind of espoused, you should put it in that top right category, and you should talk about it loudly.

In this particular moment, there are organizations that I've suggested, "Hey, think [00:44:00] about whether you pull that down one quadrant and say, 'We are still going to do these actions,' and you are still going to engage around them because they still have high alignment with your values." But because the interest actually poses more of a risk than an opportunity in this environment, there are times where you should do those things, but do them quietly.

And it goes back into what you were saying and, and we were discussing just a minute ago, which is you need the consistency, uh, of action in order to reinforce the conviction. However, you don't have to shout all of these things from the mountaintops at all times, because putting yourself in that level of risk may actually harm your license to do the thing that you wanna do most.

And so if it's gonna impact your license to operate, what we talked about right from the beginning, you may create a crisis for yourself in a moment where you actually really just wanna be doing the work. And that consistency is what's gonna give people the ability to go back and check your track record on it.

That's the thing you need most. So make sure that it's accessible, but [00:45:00] decide on the volume.

Anne Green: Yeah. I think that's great advice. I like both those, and I love that framework that you shared. Um, we need these simple rubrics just to help us think through things that can feel very subjective and opaque at times.

And, you know, it's like even recently, the idea of standing where you're standing, like know where you stand and then stand there, which I love. I love that phrase. It's a good kind of let, let's bring us back to the center here. You think about something like the Super Bowl halftime show and Bad Bunny that was just recent that-- in our memory.

A lot of noise around that, a lot of polarization, a lot of folks, and also may I say bots and foreign actors trying to capitalize. We are really being gamed in our society right now. There is, I think, not enough awareness of how much of the social media traffic we see that is not human, that is either advertising driven or other actors seeking to divide us.

So I always remind myself of that. You know, it's very hard to get people [00:46:00] focused on this. But there is a lot of pressure on the NFL to, um, to do something, say something and, and it was interesting, you and I both had the chance to hear from the NFL at a recent conference we attended. The head of marketing, very impressive individual, but also very clear on they knew who their audiences were, the Spanish-speaking world, that diaspora is very critical.

The-- he didn't talk about it, but relationships with Roc Nation, with Apple, um, the nature of, of who Bad Bunny is and, and just the stardom and all of those things. It was really interesting to watch that in live time, and the NFL basically kind of saying, "I'm not engaging with this. I'm not engaging with this," even though the pressure, I'm sure there was a lot of anxiety around it.

I mean, I don't know. Uh, is that, is that a good example of some of what we're talking today, about today?

Bradley Akubuiro: Is 1,000% a good example. Um, I, I've worked with the NFL now for about four years or so, um, and almost all around questions of, of diversity, um, equity and inclusion, [00:47:00] and social impact. And so as I've continued to work with them and seen how they operate, one of the things that I really, really respect about them is that they follow the data.

Um, they know that, one, it is a massive growth market for them, uh, in Latin America, and so they really want to be able to say, "All right, we are engaging in ways that are inclusive for that community that we're trying to grow with." Uh, but number two, they also understand this concept we're talking about, uh, when it comes to conviction, right?

The, uh, worst thing that you can do when you're trying to bring new people into the table is say, "We are only next to you when it's convenient," right? Um, you have to either be all in or all out when it comes to these things. And so they said, um, "This is a community we want to work with and be with, uh, and, and we're gonna support them if we're gonna ask them to support us."

And I think that the activities reflected that. And so I think there's a lot that we can all learn, and it really is the concept of tougher in this, you know, faster, messier, tougher piece. You know, not everything is [00:48:00] always gonna be clean or easy, and yes, you're gonna see some backlash, some of it human, some of it not, and we should talk about that piece of it in a second.

Uh, but one way or another, you have to actually have the resolve, uh, to stand by those things even when they're difficult, um, if they reinforce your strategy and your value set.

Anne Green: Yeah, absolutely. I know we're gonna start wrapping up soon. We haven't really talked at all about employees as one of those critical stakeholders.

To me, really they're the number one stakeholder. Um, the idea of how you create that sense of authenticity and trust in leadership. They're gonna look at things you do too and wonder, is this consistent or not? Is there anything you wanted to just say at a high level about employees as a stakeholder in this context before we sort of start to wrap up today?

Bradley Akubuiro: Yeah, I, I would. I would say employees have the ability to either be your greatest ambassadors or your most credible detractors. Uh, and so how you engage with employees has to be not only thoughtful, but you [00:49:00] really have to prioritize them right at the top of your stakeholder set, because nothing happens in your business without them, right?

And so I think about when we were at Boeing, for example, we had about 70,000 employees that were in Washington State, and e- uh, even though, uh, you know, many of the conversations we needed to have were with regulators, with, with customers, uh, were with others, and so we had to think about external communications, uh, very, very seriously.

Figuring out how do we actually engage- With our employees that are on the ground where we were making these planes, uh, was really important, and we didn't leave that just to internal channels. We actually communicated through The Seattle Times, uh, and through others to reach our own employee base because we needed them to hear it.

They need- th- they needed to hear it from us, uh, and maybe most importantly, they needed to hear it through a channel that they knew had credibility, right? A, a reporter, particularly Dominic Yates, Dominic Gates in this case, who was a Pulitzer Prize-winning, uh, [00:50:00] reporter for The Seattle Times, uh, is not going to filter, um, you know, our story in a way that's gonna be favorable to us if it doesn't reflect reality.

Uh, and he's well-sourced, and so when he wrote an article, um, and we were engaged in it, our employees knew that we meant what we were saying. And so you have to find ways that are not only gonna reach your employees, but are gonna help them understand what you really mean in the things that you say.

Anne Green: Yeah, I always think about that drop that falls in the pond and the rings start to radiate outwards. That first one is the employees. And you know, when I started in the field almost, oh God, 33, 34 years ago, it was like internal comms, external comms. Never the twain shall meet, and it was a different media environment.

But also there was, um, an implicit devaluing of internal comms as if it wasn't as sexy or important as external, and I could not be happier that the vast majority of practitioners out there are so far past that point of view now. And I love it. The book is filled with great nuggets like that, like the idea of how are you [00:51:00] using a reporter who might be a voice of critique, but also is trusted.

And you said earlier, you know, sometimes it's those who might be critical that where you can build that trusting relationship. So I think that is so powerful. And I know another thing we talked about when we were preparing for this discussion is it goes so much beyond employee engagement. It really is, again, that license to operate and the enrollment that you have of people in that longer term vision, and how you're by their side and they're by your side when things are harder.

It's never gonna be 100%. You can't please all the people all the time, right?

Bradley Akubuiro: Can't do it. Can't do it. Yeah. That's exactly right.

Anne Green: Yeah. So just to summarize, I mean, again, we could talk forever. I love it, really enjoyed the book. Um, so much good stuff in here. I asked you to start by telling people what to listen for.

So what at the end here are a couple of takeaways or actions that you really wanna encourage? We have a wide range of listeners to take on.

Bradley Akubuiro: Yeah. Well, I'd say in moments of [00:52:00] crisis, which we operate in so much more, uh, than we have in the past, uh, in this particular moment as the world continues to change, a, a few things remain true.

Um, one Speed beats polish, right? Spend the time preparing your organization to move quickly in these moments, and don't always worry about having the perfect answer. Sometimes just moving quickly and saying something that is credible is gonna build the trust you need to give you license to continue in that conversation.

Two, it's really difficult to be neutral in a pressure test. Uh, even saying nothing is equivalent to saying something. And so we've got to figure out where we stand, and we've got to actually stand there. Um, and then I would say number three is just get absolutely ruthless about understanding who your true stakeholders are and being able to understand what they expect from you, both because you've said it in the past as a value of yours, something that is in line with your strategy, and because it's what they [00:53:00] expect of you, um, as a leader, as an actor, um, and, and really try to shape, uh, how you talk about your brand, about your products, about your communities, about your people in terms that are in line with that stakeholder set.

And as we encounter noise, don't let it slow you down. There are times where we've got to get tough and be able to shut that out in order to achieve the goals that we have with a very, very targeted group. And so I think all of us have to think about what are the organizational steps we need to build that level of resistance, but we all can, and we have the tools available to us to do it.

So, uh, thank you, Anne. I, I appreciate so much you giving me the time and the platform to have this conversation with you, and I've just enjoyed it so much.

Anne Green: Oh, it's so much fun, and I look forward to seeing you again soon in real life. So Bradley Akabiro, thank you again. Go and grab the book, everybody.

We'll put the link in the show notes. Thank you for listening to Building Brand Gravity. Check out episodes you've missed. See us on YouTube, see us where you get your podcasts, and we will be back with you soon with [00:54:00] another episode. Thank you.