Building Brand Gravity Podcast

Anne Green: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Building Brand Gravity. I'm Anne Green.

Steve Halsey: And I'm Steve Halsey.

Anne Green: And today we have a fun one, Steve, 'cause we're gonna dive into our first mailbag episode of 2026.

Steve Halsey: I love the mailbag, I love the mail. And um, we're a small but mighty podcast still growing, still growing in listeners, but we have been collecting questions based on our season four episodes to date.

And there's some really great one here that, uh, will not only take us down memory lane, but will also give us a lot of things to discuss and debate today,

Anne Green: which we enjoy. We'd be doing that anyway, but we're doing it here on the podcast for you. So we're gonna be covering. I think pretty much all the topics we've touched on with our wonderful slate of guests, as well as episodes Steve and I did together.

So a reminder, if you hear something in the discussion that intrigues you and you haven't had time to catch the full episode, it's based on now's your chance.

Steve Halsey: Okay, [00:01:00] so let's get started. Um, our first question that we had was Ann and Steve were a quarter of the way through the year. How are your predictions shaping up?

So, I actually went old school. I printed something here. Here, here are the 12 predictions that we made at the start of the year. I'm just gonna list the 12 and then we can, uh, we can talk about the ones, uh, that we wanna hit. AI becomes standard operating procedure. Discipline, not access becomes the AI differentiator.

The human side of AI transformation is undervalued yet absolutely critical. Rehiring emerges after overcorrection healthcare stress intensifies and signals broader system strain. GLP ones reshape multiple injury. I think we can just say we hit, uh, number seven. Uh, volatility is the baseline, not the exception.

I, I think, I think [00:02:00] that was like a gimme, um, number eight was synthetic reality triggers a trust crisis. Proof and external validation matter more than ever, cyber risk and AI slop escalate together. Corporate narrative becomes an operating system and the importance of the rise of the counselor related to human judgment, augmented by ai.

So, um, those were our 12 predictions. Um, and again, taking volatility as the baseline is a given. And how have the rest of your predictions done so far this year?

Anne Green: Yeah, I mean, we predicted volatility, but it's really gone off the charts here at the start of the year, so we'll just let that one be. Okay. So a couple of mine so far.

How are they doing? Um, GLP ones continue to make huge strides. I mean, the pill form is huge. We're speaking with clients and other experts, uh, from retail to flights, to health to food, to, I mean, it really [00:03:00] is reshaping everything. So I think we've only seen the tip of the iceberg, so I would say that. This is still a big year for GLP ones.

I feel good about that one. The rehiring question is an interesting one. There's been a lot of pushback on whether layoffs that have been done to date are truly related to ai. I think that some of that has been fully debunked. Um. There's absolutely job loss related to ai. There's, I don't wanna minimize that, but I think that we are seeing companies trying to feel out what is the right size and what's the mix of skills, and there's definitely hiring going on.

And I do think that some who cut too much are rehiring. So I, I think I get a. Kind of a progress report there. I don't know if we've fully landed the plane. Cyber and lop. What's really interesting about cyber, I mean, LOP is everywhere and I do think you see a backlash against it, especially in fields like ours, but many fields.

Um, I just saw a note today.

Steve Halsey: I today think it's Dash. Yes, I think it's Dash.

Anne Green: It has,

Steve Halsey: you can't use it without feeling like somehow it's been computer [00:04:00] generated.

Anne Green: I know, I know. The big thing that's really interesting to me on the cyber side though, is, um, the big announcement in the past week that Anthropic has put together what are called Project Glass Wing, and that is related to an unreleased model named Mythos that sort of leaked out onto the scene, which they feel represents such a threat to the internet as we know it, because it confines.

So many bugs and exploits that just have not been found by humans. Some over, I mean, they're talking about stuff in the Linux kernel that hasn't been found for 25, 26 years. So you have big, big players across financial services and technology that are getting early access in order to try to strengthen and shore up all kinds of aspects of the consumer and public internet and the, and um, the protected internet.

So, so we'll see. Those are some of mines so far, Steve, that I've been watching. What are. How are your predictions doing? Which are the ones that you were thinking about as we went into the mailbag?

Steve Halsey: You know, I think, I think they're, I think they're making, uh, making good [00:05:00] progress. But as I've reflected more over the last three months, I, I think it's important to understand the biggest prediction and the biggest theme that we're talking about here isn't AI itself, you know, the prediction that, so that I was really making about that.

Whereas really AI is a pressure point. And that certainly has become probably more true than has, has been expected. And you know, from a professional communicators and marketers, what they're dealing with is this just kind of stacking of forces. It's not just a single disruption, but you've got, you've got ai, the technology, you've got trust challenges, you've got this constant volatility.

You have a lot of sector stresses, like what we talked about in, in healthcare or. Just how supply chain has been. Uh. Corrupted just based on geopolitical changes. It's just creating this really whiplash that somebody that was in a losing situation yesterday, now all of a sudden is in a winning [00:06:00] situation just based on how supply chains change.

So that sector says all these stuff create this compounding effect that leaders aren't just struggling with a single change, they're just struggling with the simultaneous nature of this all and needing. To innovate at the same time. So, so I don't know. I'll play a bit of a contrarian. I think we're less in a disruptive moment and more in a compressive moment where everything is just pulling together really fast and, and it's a point where clarity and leadership and clarity and communication, I think is more critical than ever.

Anne Green: Yeah, it's, it's interesting if it's disruption, um, sort of indicates a deviation from the norm. Like it's, to me, inherently encoded in the word. And if you're constantly being disrupted, the norm feels different. So I like the idea of you redefining to like that either that compression or just constant pressure or just that's just what the world is today.

So, um, our predictions are tracking along. I think, you know, so far so good. But I like the [00:07:00] idea of Steve that we have to keep kind of reframing because it is a. It is an environment that requires constant interrogation. So we're gonna go on now to questions related to another one of our guests, a friend of the pod, Natalie Nixon, author, speaker, consultant, um, amazing person.

Uh, really someone I admire and watch her work closely. Um, I spoke to her about, um, what we called Rethinking Productivity in the age of AI related to her new book, move, think, rest, and actually her. First book, the Creativity Leap is just coming out in a new edition. So, you know, check Natalie out. But there was a quote that Natalie shared in the book and in the podcast discussion saying, this isn't as much a tech revolution as it is a human one.

And one of our listeners wanted to know to unpack that more and what that means to us both. So I don't know, Steve, I'll direct that to you first.

Steve Halsey: Well, I and I and I, I think what was really amazing about the, the discussion you had with Natalie and Natalie's book, I think if [00:08:00] 95% of us wrote that book, the title would would've been Move, think, stress.

Right. Versus versus Rest. And, and I and I, I think it's, it's really easy to get caught up in. The, the technology and the discussion and just really view it as that. But it really is, you know, as we've been talking about it, it really is about a human evolution and how do we evolve the process of creativity.

Creativity is still inherently human. You need all that judgment to pull together, to inquiry, to, um, to improvise. But it, but it really is placing kind of a premium on judgment. It's not really replacing it. So, you know, I think that's where some of the confusion happens is that people see technology, right?

And it scales the output that, but it doesn't really change. What, what becomes in inherently human, I think, and, and this is one of my contentions, I I actually argue AI is requiring us to be more [00:09:00] human in terms of, uh, in terms of what, what we think. Mm-hmm. And I, I also thought it was kind of interesting, and I wrote this down here, um, like one of the points from that discussion was again, AI increases the premium on human judgment.

The question isn't how fast, it's how meaningful. And I, I thought that was really a, really a powerful takeaway from that session.

Anne Green: Yeah.

Steve Halsey: So from where you stand, um, having really led a big part of that discussion. Mm-hmm. You know, in the past a lot of the discussion has been about value-based pricing, hours, times, materials, all of those type of things.

Um, the very traditional model that was created in the seventies and was very, very, very efficient. Right. We all use it. Oh, this is how. PR and comm shops are like, accountants are like lawyers. It just became like, uh, like a professional services model. But Natalie was really recommending that we step back and ask a fundamentally different [00:10:00] question, what is at stake if the work is not done right?

That's one of those meta things you just get running. Mm-hmm. Um, and you don't really think about that. So as many of us in the agency world try to move beyond. The hourly billing rate and that value. Can you unpack that for me? How unpack, let letting go maybe a little bit.

Anne Green: Yeah, and it's interesting too because with Natalie Nixon, Aaron Kin, and Kim sample three of our guests so far this year on our season four of the podcast, we've returned to this question of.

How the business model in this kind of professional services field is structured time and material hourly. And the reason it came up with Natalie, and she was sort of a great one to start that conversation this year, which has continued across podcasts, is that she's talking about looking at productivity differently, unpacking how it was framed in our heads and structurally during the industrial revolution, how it became that sort of time system in the, in the 20th century.

How it still is with [00:11:00] us today, as you said, Steve, even before the seventies, but certainly since the seventies onward in our field, you know, the big firms that sort of established themselves and what we do today. And you know, I was saying to Natalie, if we wanna reframe productivity, that's all well and good.

Um, but let's that help me. Conceptualize how we get to something that's like value when it's so baked into the system. It's not just you and I, Steve deciding, although we have tried and we do try to move to other types of pricing structures and contracts. The system is so oriented, right? Including our colleagues in procurement and legal, et cetera, et cetera.

And that's why Natalie's question of it would get back farther. Earlier and say what is at stake if the work is not done? I think that kind of question reframes your thinking, which is why are we even doing this work if it wasn't done? Does it matter? What's the outcome we're trying to get to? What's the real outcome?

And we say these words and we talk about this, but I felt that her framework [00:12:00] let me go deeper in it and really feel it. And I think I'm gonna be stronger at framing that for others, and that includes our own teams. Who can get caught up in our to-do list on our action items list or running down the to-dos on a call with clients or clients can get caught up with that.

And we have to step back constantly and say, why are we doing X versus Z? What is the output and the real outcome of it? And then if we didn't do it, would it matter? Because it really should matter if we didn't do it right. And, and, and I just love that conversation that Natalie helped me think through.

Steve Halsey: Yeah. And I think that that's really, really important. And it was, you know, I was at a, um, uh, was at a community dinner over the weekend mm-hmm. And I was sitting next to a individual who's in the banking industry. And of course, like all things, we got you talking about ai. How are you using ai? What about this?

Efficiency. Efficiency. Efficiency. And you know, as we were talking about it, and I [00:13:00] talked a little bit about how, you know, some of these pricing models need to change because one of the things it really opened up in my mind is just what you said, really the, the value of that output. That outcome or that council, right.

Back before we were able to be maybe a little bit more efficient in how we packaged it up. You know, it was that 30 years of expertise. You had counseling and crafting that put everything together, but now if you can craft a little bit faster. The value still is in that judgment, that perspective that, you know, um, somebody like you with decades of, of direct experience and interactions and discussions in the healthcare industry, you're gonna bring a perspective that, uh, that, that the robots are not.

And I, and so I think that's where I think sometimes we get caught too much in this idea of speed versus stepping back and thinking. And I think the other thing that's, that was really important from um, [00:14:00] that episode as well is the important to rest, I think. I think sometime a lot of us just think if we just keep pushing harder, keep moving faster, we'll finally break through.

But sometimes the best thing to do is just sit and rest and recharge.

Anne Green: I, I think that's so powerful. It's very hard to do, but that is, and Natalie would say for sure. That is where the brain really generates creative thinking, divergent thinking. I think about it like a rock skipping across a pond, letting your thoughts sort of move and skip from thing to thing.

This is a magnificent segue though to our next episode, which was Aaron Kin, who we've both known for years. Agency owner, leader, entrepreneur, then founded one of the first kind of PR oriented SaaS programs in the AI space, predictive AI now. Now he's got a very, very big AI and innovation role at a large consultancy, and that episode was called the AI Strategy Agency Should Build Now.

And the reason I think that's a great segue as you were talking about [00:15:00] this over reliance on efficiency, which by the way, we'll get to with Kim's samples. SE segment two. That's such a thread woven through here, but Erin was trying to talk again about what value actually means. Versus kind of the low hanging fruit or maybe the least imaginative uses of AI in this kind of setting.

And he had an analogy that I know caught both our attention, which is the Disney FastPass when it comes to underscoring the value of AI enabled work. So, um, one of our listeners wanted to unpack that one more, and I know it came up. A lot of people have, uh, hooked onto this. Can you talk a little bit, Steve, about how you think about that metaphor and how it helps us get beyond.

This sense of efficiency or just a race to the bottom? Well, it'll be just be cheaper, faster, you know? This is just gonna make everything devalued, which I think is the opposite of what is happening and what should be happening.

Steve Halsey: Well, I, well, I can tell you as somebody who has drug, small humans [00:16:00] and elderly humans, uh, through the Disney Park, I cannot speak highly enough of the importance of the FastPass.

Uh, and, and really kind of setting your, setting yourself up for what are those featured part of that experience? Do you really want to, uh, to, to get to the quickest? And, and for me, what really stuck about that is I just. What I liked about that metaphor is it didn't, it wasn't about efficiency. It wasn't about devolving value.

It was, how do I get to the experience I want faster? Uh, that may, in our industry, that may be an outcome, that may be the council, but how do I get there faster? And the idea is that it isn't about making the work cheaper. It is just about collapsing that that time to value, which then creates its own challenge if the expectation is everything is compressed, but, but I really like that, that idea of the fast pass in terms of just.

Framing it. And, and to me that really helped o open up the construct that, that, [00:17:00] again, you know, thinking about, you know, some of our, some of our colleagues that have, you know, 25 years of experience in agricultural communications. Once you step back and you're not thinking about time and material, the access and just the collective wisdom that's been built in that person, you know, that is the value that that you're getting, which is, which is a little bit different.

And I think part of the challenge is though, with the FastPass analogy, is, uh, it's kind of like clear, right? Eventually every, everyone gets TSA pre, everyone gets the fast pass. So the differentiator really. Becomes, you know, what do you do with the time you get back? Do you sit idle? What? What do you do from there?

So for me, it kind of is pulling its way to. The gap isn't really who has AI or access to it, but it's who's really built a discipline about it, their standard operating procedures, their embedded workflow, their narrative alignment, but [00:18:00] also to have the perspective and the curiosity and, and somewhat the joy.

To try and use it to unleash that FastPass, uh, a little bit, uh, a little bit faster. Mm-hmm. Here's a, here's a question for you, Ann, that came in from one of our, uh, from one of our listeners, said, um, AI adoption is obviously a big issue right now for all companies. What are you two seeing in terms of the main challenges?

As well as approaches that are working. So I'll let you have that one. Nice little softball for you.

Anne Green: Oh, it's easy. It's only the biggest problem facing this, this moment in time. Now, and, and you know, Natalie said it earlier, this is a human revolution, not a tech revolution, or not just a tech revolution. We can argue that question.

My feeling is this is a very significant, I mean, this is not a hard feeling to imagine. This is a highly significant moment of pivot. Societally as us as humans [00:19:00] and as professionals. You've said Steve before that we have to work harder than ever individually and as a company with employees and colleagues to ensure in continued competence that you are competent in a field that is going to evolve rapidly, is already evolving rapidly, and that includes tools and resources and how you.

Use them to augment yourself, not just as you said, a race to the bottom, but it's also the relevance. How do we stay relevant in a changing world? Um, it is a large mental load right now for ai. I said, in our town hall to all of our staff, you have the parts of ai, of, you know, the parts of our brain that are looking at all of the promise, medical advances, augmented intelligence, working faster, smarter, et cetera.

And then you have the many hard things about ai, societal disruption, workforce questions, energy use, land use, um, scary things like cyber scarier, things like autonomous weapons. This all sits in people's heads at the same time, I [00:20:00] think the first most critical thing regarding AI adoption. Is for us to give our teams and ourselves permission to understand that we have to hold all those things at one time.

We can't pretend there's not truly challenging, even disturbing aspects of how this change is happening and what AI could mean for society in the world while we're also holding. The tremendous promise and even the joy and excitement of the new things we can already do because this is woven through our lives.

If we can hold both those things and then step back and say again, what is at stake here? That human judgment, the expertise we bring to it, including. Um, the expertise we're building among our younger staff as well. Then I think we have a better way to get around some of those more psychological aspects of adoption and also encouraging people to interrupt their own workflows.

You have to find new ways of working and really it takes many layers. It takes a lot [00:21:00] of different types of programs and support at once. Has to come top down, bottom up, peer to peer counsel, the whole all of it at once. But then together we can advance this because I do think we have to remember it is the human that has to evolve along with this alongside the technology.

So

Steve Halsey: hundred. A hundred percent. A hundred percent.

Anne Green: Yeah. So I guess if you're good, let's go on to one of your and my episodes. This was a solo Ann and Steve show, and it was based around a concept that you've been cooking for a while and that I am very taken with, which is your narrative. Is your operating system, and we had a whole discussion about that.

So if anyone hasn't heard that and they're at this point of this episode, I do encourage you to go back because we get quite into it. But in terms of the questions we received from folks after they did listen to it, you know, Steve, I'm gonna start with you because you are the one that has [00:22:00] sort of pulled this together.

How is narrative in this context? If narrative is your operating system, your os, how is that different? Than brand or organizational messaging, or are you kind of talking about something like values? How is it distinct from those things? So we make sure that our listeners understand those core concepts better.

Steve Halsey: I think the answer is yes. It's all of those things and, and more as, as I really think about narrative, just in the way that work is evolving, communication is evolving. Um, as we talked about the always on world, we are in a zero click environment. It's this idea that that narrative has really shifted from what traditionally were campaigns and messaging into.

Honestly, it's more of a governing system that aligns leadership, that aligns culture, that aligns ai output, crisis response and brand behavior are all things that, that, that come into play. And here's kind of, kind of [00:23:00] what I mean is, is that that narrative becomes your operating system. I've referred to it kind of as almost kinda like the DNA of the company.

Mm-hmm. But it's ultimately how your deci, how your company makes decisions under pressure, because everyone, and even AI is, is, is watching. So you create an internal culture, an internal way of working, an internal narrative that yes, you have messaging that. That creates your expression. Yes. You have branding that creates identity.

Yes, you have narrative which is, hey, here's the soul you wanna construct. But, and I like the way you created that definition of calling it the big N narrative is really about that decision logic. Because where this idea really started to crystallize for me was, you know, you and I have been working with a really large company that's, that's really just trying to figure out.

What is their narrative path forward? Um, and it, it became really interesting. We did a lot of [00:24:00] market research of, uh, professionals in the field, their customers, employee research media scan. And what came through to me was that there was some kind of, um, connective tissue or force that really governed how.

Organizations operate when times are easy and which are not. And it becomes the unspoken narrative that when you talk to hundreds of employees, you can really pull it in. And so, so to me that's really, when I say narrative as the operating system, that that's what I'm talking about. It's the way you behave, it's the way you talk it.

It almost creates a. It was kind of like, like a, like a, it is a shared story about a, about a company or a brand, um, that becomes really, really personal. But it's also, if it's not aligned, everybody can be operating with good intentions and run in different directions. I think the example we use was like, if somebody was [00:25:00] told to, once again, we'll go back to ai, implement an AI strategy.

Sales and marketing may look at this very much from, all right, this is gonna be all about. Um, you know, how are we gonna find efficiencies, get more customers, automate things for them? R and d may take that same directive as to integrate ai, and it's gonna think about, we're gonna fundamentally change and open up the direction we're gonna go for r and d.

The comms team may look at that and say, well, what about ethics? What about, so it can be the same challenge, but if you're running in different directions, that's when the narrative gets, gets really. Kind of pulled and strained is, does that make sense?

Anne Green: Yeah. Well, to build on that, I mean, I wanna build your metaphor out one more, which is something I think we're seeing where it really is, um, a pressure, and I'll give you a follow up question then after that, on the AI side.

A lot of companies right now are directing their AI message to the street, meaning Wall Street and to investors because [00:26:00] everybody feels like, well, they have to have an AI strategy and it has to be articulated. And what's happening is that's where some of those layoffs or downsizings are getting perhaps overly attributed to ai.

And then you have a real alienation of the employees who, if they don't feel, remember AI mental load, there's the light and the dark of it. If they don't feel empowered. Um, if they feel this is gonna disempower them, threaten their job, that there's not an ethical approach to it. That the company is sweeping the difficult things under the rug and or they're just all about AI is gonna just replace your jobs.

Why are they going to adopt the technology? So that, to me was such a crystallizing of narrative as operating system. Now, staying on AI for a minute, a follow up question, Steve, we got. Is the fact that you claimed, and I think it's very true, AI out there, especially large language models, will naturally put more pressure on a company's narrative.

And if it is fragmented or not cohesive throughout the organization, it's not gonna be [00:27:00] perfect all the time in every place. But if there's not a strong sense of what that is as an operating system, you, you get a lot of pressure and fragmentation. Talk more about that 'cause I do think that's a really excellent observation.

Steve Halsey: Well, we, we've moved very fast into a zero click environment, whether we want it or not. And, and for those, if you haven't heard the term, zero click just basically means you get served up a summary without actually clicking on a link. So almost all the browsers. Now, when you put in a topic, first thing you're gonna do is you're gonna get an AI topic or summary.

Going back to last year when I had our friends from Muck Racks on there, and we were, we were just really looking at how the large language models work and what they're scraping from news and from your website and from Reddit and from social posts and from everything else. And it's kind of pulling it together.

Well, if you've got, uh, employee or customers who [00:28:00] on rhetoric. Who aren't happy and are talking about it, but yet, you know, you're, you're, what you're pushing out on your website is talking about everything being the greatest thing since sliced bread. It's gonna kind of aggregate and average those. So it's not, it's not a controlled message that you're able to push out.

So it really accelerates very quickly if you're not. Aligned. And, and I think, you know, one of, one of, uh, one of the clients we talked to used it to use the term of saying vectors, we're all out there running and we're driving, but if we're running in different vectors, it's gonna get noticed 'cause it's gonna start pulling us apart.

Right? Kind of stretching. But if we can get aligned and get our vectors going in the same direction, that's really gonna help. And that's also one of the reasons where. In our crisis and issues management, we're doing a lot of work with companies now to prepare for the crisis before the crisis hits by staging all that [00:29:00] information.

What I find a little bit. I don't wanna say ironic, I guess I'd call it refreshing, is it's putting out all that information about the great things they do. It's creating clarity about process. It's creating clarity about investment. It's creating clarity around environmental reports and all those type of things.

So. Yeah. Anyway, I think that's where the pressure is, is that that AI is pulling from all sources everywhere and it just, you know, really to use your bad sports analogy, it's getting everybody aligned and driving with the same belief, I think becomes really critical.

Anne Green: Yep. Yep. Very true. Um, this actually leads to one more question.

We've gotten on the same topic about organizational structure and where communication sits that I, I wanted to speak to really briefly before we move on to the next one. We talked last year in season three, quite a bit about. Whether communications is in a unified structure or whether it's spread out in business units.

The hub and spoke model, there were a [00:30:00] lot of changes last year that were in the news. Um, one was in a large pharmaceutical entity and kind of shifting the comms. Away from a centralized to out and, you know, there's, there's good and bad ways to do all of this. Any kind of system can work, right? I think we netted out the fact that really, maybe the ideal is that you have a centralized comm structure, but you also have professionals embedded within the business.

You get the best of both worlds. But I think for me, this idea of narrating narrative as an operating system. That more than ever. Um, the speed of the news, the speed of crisis, the uh, two-way nature of dialogue, the intensity of interactions with all stakeholders today, how fast information travels, how AI will be changing discovery.

Um, all of that just says that. The alignment, that force multiplier of the vector, the similar vector as a force multiplier, as a collector, it's more important than ever that companies are very, very intentional. Mm-hmm. About their [00:31:00] communication structure and the locality or the like the embedding of their communications, expertise, marketing expertise throughout the organization.

And not only that, but that the points of connection are really tight, that the matrix understands itself and that those. Points of communication can flow back and forth because there's no time. In fact, I'm gonna be interviewing an upcoming guest for his new book about crisis comms, and he's talking about the speed and the intensity, and I think when I get to him in a couple episodes, we'll, we'll talk about this again.

I think it's time. Yeah. To switch gears. Oh, sorry, Steve. Go ahead. Jump in.

Steve Halsey: I was, I was just, I was just gonna say there, yeah, I, you know, I, I, I agree with that. And it's really about, again, getting that vision, the values, everything aligned and everything altogether. Kind of mo moving in that, that direction. I think where you were going to go was, uh, you were gonna talk about our friend Kim sample [00:32:00] from the, uh, from the public relations council.

Right.

Anne Green: Yes. That brings us to our most recent episode prior to this one, um, from early April, and it was called What Agency Leaders Need To Get Right Now. That's Kim Sample President of the PR Council, as you said, and it touched on a number of things that matter. I mean, one thing that I'll have you comment on that we got a question about was consolidation in our industry.

Kim and I spoke about it briefly. There's a lot of consolidation happening at the largest firms and at the holding companies. There was just. Um, questions about what trends we're seeing in this space. What are the implications? So what, what are you thinking about this moment? I mean, it's not the first we've seen in our industry, Steve, but what is it looking like to you right now as you look out there across the landscape?

Steve Halsey: Well, you, you, you're definitely, uh, it, it goes without doubt that we're seeing some of the big holding companies make really significant moves to try and get scales in, in those, in those kind of cases, trying to get, um, efficiency [00:33:00] and. Unfortunately, there are a lot, a lot of amazing professionals, um, you know, that are being put out in the street as, as part of the process.

But I also think one of the things that becomes interesting in moments like these, again, the head loss is about the big, um, job loss and the consolidation and the numbers are staggering. But I always find it interesting to see kind of the post innovation that happens out there of, you know, the people that move to new or smaller firms and have a big impact or decide to start up their own business.

Mm-hmm. And I think that's where this one's gonna be a little bit different. Because with what you can do with AI and deep expertise, I, I think it's gonna be really interesting to see how all that shakes out. I think you're gonna see a lot of, uh, a lot of different companies kind of shake out. But, but I think in the end, it's all really coming down to trying to answer this question of what, what is value?

How do we deliver value? [00:34:00] Um. And, and I think that's probably why, one of the reasons, if you look at industry consolidation in a little bit different way, you know, our friends outta Davis and Gilbert, the law firm that does a lot of work in our space, you know, when they did their, um, state of m and a last year, what they found was that a significant number of the m and as were happening with independent shops

Anne Green: mm-hmm.

Steve Halsey: Smaller type of shops. So I also think it, it. It's important not just to look at, you know, the biggest conglomerates out there and say how they go. So goes the industry. I think you're gonna see a lot of, a lot of innovation. So, but

Anne Green: yeah.

Steve Halsey: You know, also a lot of shock. I mean, what, what, what's kind of your take on that?

Anne Green: I agree. Uh, I mean, first of all, our industry is so resilient, so entrepreneurial. There's always new firms being. Made and created and sometimes undone or consolidation. We've done two of our own self-funded acquisitions, so we're one of those independent firms acquiring and growing and finding the right fit and really thriving in that.

So [00:35:00] it is hard to see, and I think because it's also in the teeth of this change with ai, and it's also at a time of just tremendous geopolitical volatility, both at home and globally, that it feels even more intense. But I think your point about innovation is well taken. I. Am excited for the future of our industry.

I think that there's a lot of upside to be had, um, for us all. Absolutely, and, and I appreciated Kim's perspective on that too.

Steve Halsey: Yeah. And I, and I guess, I guess I'm in a, I'm in a glass, um, half full mode today. So I'm, I'm, I'm kind of, I'm kind of looking at, looking at, looking at the positive and, and one of the other things that, and this was a question we got that I'm gonna send to you.

'cause I thought it was really, uh, really interesting and I view this as a positive part of the AI conversation. Um, the question was. Kim made a comment critiquing the idea of human in the loop, and he said it was good to hear someone pointing out the issues with that. [00:36:00] What is your take on a better way to think about this, given how limiting that metaphor really is of human in the loop, so.

I'm gonna give you my, my ha, my my happy mojo. Let's see how, see how we've worked there.

Anne Green: I loved that conversation with Kim 'cause she kind of caught me on it too. 'cause I use it sometimes and she just felt like human in the loop. This, I think this is almost exactly how she said human the loop. We can do better than that, can't we?

And I, I think that was such an apt critique. We need to understand ourselves, not just as, um, passive receivers of this technology, but one of the things I've been talking about, oh my gosh, in almost every episode this season and literally to anyone who will listen to me, is as leaders in our field and also with our clients, we need to be a lot more focused on defining the kind of future we seek to have for humans, for work, [00:37:00] for society.

We need to create a stronger vision. Of what would the optimal mix of human and machine look like? What are human upsides? What are machine upsides? How do we maximize those? How do we. Lean into what humans are best at. How, how do we make sure that this is a system where we end up in that positive glass half full way?

Not in these dystopic views. I mean, if you look at the matrix, like humans become batteries, that's about the darkest view one can have. But I think sometimes in our society right now, I'm joking again, in our town hall, I, I had the mock up. An old cartoon of Wizard of Oz and replace the Wizard of Oz picture with Sam Altman.

And underneath I had the caption say, oh, great wizard, what will happen to us? And it, it was a joke to break it up, but in some ways it's very serious. It's like we're sitting around waiting to see Dario at Anthropic, Sam Altman, you know, Google. What are they gonna do? What's gonna happen to us? Every report that comes out from an analyst.[00:38:00]

Like the Rinni report, people freak out, they overindex because they're trying to read the tea leaves. Look at the crystal ball. I would love to see at least as much energy and us defining the future that humans will have and want to have with, with this technology. I mean, what's your take on human in the loop, Steve?

Steve Halsey: Yeah. You know, with, with, with human in the look, you know, my, my, my take on that's a little bit, um, controversial. I like, and I understand the concept. I think it's a little bit of a defensive position. Yeah. Um, and, and what I mean by that is it's, it's not human in the loop. It should be human setting, the system.

Right. Human as architect, not reviewer. Right. So to, to me, to me, I think that's a really important distinction to think about, at least in my own mind, how I, how I'm thinking about the ability to iterate. In a way that was [00:39:00] difficult before. Now again, you get really good colleagues. You, you can iterate really well, but just that idea to, to free your mind, to think a little bit different.

So anyway, that, that's mine. Um, I'd like to hear people, uh, rather than saying human in the loop, start saying human as the architect. That I think would be, uh, would, would be important. Well, it looks like we're getting around the, uh, the magic time here of our podcast. Looking at those 12 predictions. Um, I think our track record is, uh, is going pretty good out of the gate.

Still an early call. That volatility as a baseline may just settle out at, uh, at at any second. But, but I think across the different conversations, Anne, we've been having this quarter. I mean, one thing has become clear, kind of going back to where I started. Even though we talk about it all the time, AI is not the actual story.

It's the pressure test that's really exposing our systems, our way of thinking, our way of creating [00:40:00] value. Um, and it's expo exposing how clear you are, how aligned you are, and just really. How well organizations actually operate. So maybe we close, we started with, uh, with 12 predictions. Why don't we, why don't we close with two shifts?

What's one leadership shift that you think will be pretty significant as it plays out over the rest of the year?

Anne Green: I mean, I, I think last year, Deloitte had the CTO. Deloitte had put out a stat that was widely covered, which was companies investing in ai, ai. 93% of those investments, whatever group they surveyed was going to tech and 7% to humans.

So I think. The big leadership shift for me, and I think about this every day as CEO and as a partner with you and in our leadership, invest in people as aggressively as you invest in the technology and understand this as a human, uh, change. And that we as a society and as business are likely [00:41:00] under investing in the only thing that actually thrives adoption, not just of ai, but adoption of a changing landscape.

And how about you, Steve? What's, what's your leadership shift?

Steve Halsey: I, I think for, for leadership, it's to really think about and treat narrative like infrastructure and, and operating system, not messaging. Mm-hmm. Again, that goes back to my contention that end of the day, AI is forcing us to be more human and really.

Kind of ponder that metaphorical question of what, what it means to be human, but, but in a zero click AI mediated world that we've really quickly gone to, you really don't control the outputs anymore, right? Uh, 'cause so much is being created around you. You can only control the system behind and around them.

What are those behaviors? What is that a vision? How are you aligned? And in a lot of ways, your report card has gotten a lot bigger 'cause you're being measured on everything every day. [00:42:00] So that's where it's really important, um, as a business skill, as a leadership skill to really think about narrative as one of the most critical things you can do to get your people, your customers, your organization, your industry.

Uh, to move in, uh, in a direction that you would like to see them go.

Anne Green: Well, that feels like a great place to finish, Steve.

Steve Halsey: Well, hey, thanks for listening to us and Anne, as always, I, I enjoy, uh, the conversation. This was a good mailbag episode. Please make sure you continue to, um, send us your questions and your comments.

We will do another mailbag episode and, um, if there are any episodes you missed that this may have spurred you to say, Ooh, I would really like to, uh, hear about that conversation with Kim or with Aaron. Uh, please round back, um, to building brand gravity and catch what you've missed. [00:43:00]

Anne Green: Yeah. And make sure to keep an eye on the POS podcast feed.

We're prepping some upcoming interviews and conversations I know are gonna resonate. We've got some of the new rules of crisis comms, what it means to do the heart work, the heart work of modern leadership, which I love. And we're gonna be doing a deeper dive into some recent essential research in our field that Steve, you're gonna be taking on.

That is all coming up.

Steve Halsey: Well, thank you everybody for listening to Building Brand Gravity and have a great day.

Anne Green: Take care.

​[00:00:00]

Anne Green: I don't mean, you know, remembering your client's birthdays, but really being a trusted advisor. And that is such a strong skill in our industry and across other professional services, and that's what we have to remember. That is the core of our unique offering. And if we're pushing out AI generated work without interrogating it.

We are devaluing our firms so incredibly, and that's where I think we need a lot of conversation, which you have to make room for that conversation. And you know, it's not just posting your AI vision or manifesto or whatever it is, but it's repetition. It's inviting questions, it's inviting discussion.[00:01:00]

Hello and welcome to Building Brand Gravity. I'm Anne Green.

Steve Halsey: I'm Steve Halsey

Anne Green: and Steve, we have a featured guest today who is well known across us, US integrated marketing, comms and PR agencies, and that's Kim, sample president of the PR council, and I would definitely call her a friend of the pod. No doubt about it.

And in our conversation we dig deep into this moment of transformation for our sector. We're gonna touch on a host of issues that both agency and client leaders alike. I think they shouldn't miss this, um, really relevant to their business. But before we jump into our chat. I thought we should talk about a recent event that she and us hosted, which had a lot of us buzzing.

Steve Halsey: Yeah, that's right Anne. Um, as you know, because you were one of our hosts here, we hosted the very first AI summit for the America regions of PROI Worldwide, which is a global independent agency network that we're a part of. So we did, um, a, a session where we had agency [00:02:00] leaders, AI enablement leaders from firms.

North and South America as well. A few, as a few of our friends from Europe came over as well. And really the goal of the session was to move beyond the basics and just share how we're each driving AI transformation in our firms and with our clients. And, and by all accounts, this was really a high impact.

Two days.

Anne Green: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I, I came into the office this week and I miss seeing everybody. It was so lively and it was such a great group. So a big shout out to our planning committee for any of you, you know, who are listening and Steve, you are a part of that. But we covered a ton of ground. So synthetic personas.

Age agentic workflows and age agentic coworkers. The next phases of GEO, how do we get beyond GEO 1 0 1 and where is that going? Opportunities and barriers around adoption, ethical implications that we're all watching. We had a really lively session on ai, you know, basically F ups and flubs to reflect on some of the ways [00:03:00] it's not going well out there in the world.

But I think one of the other big, exciting moments was a lot of show and tell from our colleagues during demo sessions, so we. Got to tap into the kinds of tools and platforms we've all been building. But I thought for our podcast listener, Steve, I know you had fielded a survey and Rebecca Bender had helped with that before the event across the PROI America's region.

And right at the start of the summit, you summarized some interesting findings that I'd love you to share some of your observations and key takeaways 'cause we know people are tracking this topic very closely.

Steve Halsey: I'd be glad to. And it was interesting for me at the session. It reminded me of a discussion 18 months ago.

Uh, we were in Miami with other POI members and we were talking about AI adoption and integration, and I asked everybody to raise their hand. I said, who here is even experimenting with ai? And it was maybe a third of the route. Group raise their hand. Good thing was for our AI summit, when I asked that same question, everybody in the room [00:04:00] raised their hand.

But as you said, we did do a survey at the beginning and, and I thought the findings were interesting 'cause they reflected not just where our fellow PROI members were, but it really reflects a lot of what I'm hearing in the marketplace. And it was really three, three key things. I mean, first, AI adoption is real.

But it's very uneven. And that was something we heard across, uh, a lot of our, uh, participants. While most agencies are actively using things like copilot chat, even creating custom GP environments, very few say that they're fully operationalizing AI across all their workflows. So there's a pretty big gap between where they're in kind of what I'm calling this, uh, muddy middle, and kind of true, uh, integration.

Secondly. I guess it shouldn't be surprising, but the biggest barrier, Ann, isn't the tech itself. It's that change management, the human element. Things like training, governance, getting teams more comfortable, [00:05:00] embedding AI and what they're doing every day from a workflow standpoint, that really seems to be more of a challenge than the tools themselves.

And third, and this is where we're seeing the real shift happening, the conversation really focused on how agencies are thinking about value. And third. There's a real shift happening in how agencies are really thinking about value. We're really starting from the agency standpoint and the PR council, I just had this conversation with a different meeting with Kim last week, are really talking about how do we move from the old ways of hours and outputs to really thinking about new ways of value creation, insight, acceleration, impact, things that that really allow us to move beyond just pricing to really.

What are the talent models and what deep expertise do you bring and ultimately how are you moving that client's business forward? So I thought there was a lot to unpack, uh uh, over those two days. And you know, we had really rich [00:06:00] conversations out there, and as you said, it was everything from synthetic research.

There's GEO discoverability, new commercial models. We even just saw some examples for demonstration purposes that shows what happened if you take AI too far. It allowed us to really step back and have a conversation about the, the importance of ethics, which I know is a topic that is, uh, that is big to you, but it's also, you know, that conversation was just about reshaping the operating system of agencies as well as clients themselves.

And to your earlier point, Anne, I, I think what made it so energizing was a level of openness. Everybody was willing to share their wins. What was not working, as you said, the occasional f ups that are out there, but, but that's the important part about being in such a big moment of transformation is to have those conversations, to share those lessons so that we're all moving forward, co-creating what comes next in real time.

Anne Green: Yeah, the conversations are so impressive, and [00:07:00] I'm really proud of all of our firms of how fast we're moving, but how intentionally we're moving too. But Steve, you just talked about that big moment of transformation, so that is the perfect segue. Given my conversation with Kim, sample of the PR council was also a lot about transformation and also how to understand where the agency landscape sits today.

And implications not just for agency leadership, but also client partners because that's such a symbiotic relationship. There are so many interesting trends. Forces to talk about, and Kim and I cover a lot of them. As always, as people listen to these conversations, we welcome your feedback and questions.

So reach out and

be part of that conversation. So now with no further ado, let's welcome Kim to the podcast.

I am so glad to welcome you back to the show, Kim, sample, president of the PR Council, and just someone with tremendous experience over the course of your career in our industry. For those that don't know, check it out.

But Kim has been very senior at agencies for [00:08:00] many years and has been now leading the PR council for a number of years as well. So welcome Kim.

Kim Sample: Thank you. It's so good to be back. I think you're calling me old.

Anne Green: Well, if I'm calling you all, I'm calling myself that too. And that's where all the gray hair comes from. So it's all fine. You know, it's all good. And you know, wisdom has its benefits, right? Yes. Well, I wanted to have you back to the podcast to talk a little bit about just where we see the industry right now.

Um. We like to have a mix of different types of conversations with different experts, and as an agency leader in the integrated marketing communications and PR space, you know, I spent a lot of time looking at where we are, where we're going, and it just felt like a great time to check in with you again, um, given all the conversations you're having and, and the way you're watching the industry.

So, you know, I guess I'd start off to say. You and I over our recent decades in this business, have seen significant change in our [00:09:00] industry, and there's been huge seismic moments of change. You know, you and I could name a number of them writing to the web, social media, et cetera, et cetera, and also the integration of different types of disciplines of firms.

We are. Much different as PR firms now than we were, you know, in the early nineties or before. But, um, this moment feels different to me. It feels bigger and faster and more fundamental and profound. So I'd love to know, as someone whose job it is to look across our entire industry, not just the agency side, but also understand what clients are doing and thinking, you know, what are, what are you seeing and how do you describe this moment in time?

Kim Sample: Yeah, I think it's a, um, massive. Period of change and transformation, and I think that's very difficult in our agency business because I don't know, your currency is how busy you are in an agency. That means you're in demand, you're offering value, and it's hard to make the time to [00:10:00] learn. Adapt. I think that's something you do very well as a leader, but it, it's difficult, especially for firms that may not be staffed right.

For growth. Um, and then the whole growth issue is a big one. Um, it's been a few years now of. Kind of constrained growth, which is a long way of saying flat for many firms, um, particularly the large holding company owned firms. And I, that's sort of a bellwether for the industry that I think there's lots of firms that are doing well.

I'll come back to that in a minute. But you know, all the news about the large firms showing. Slight declines or very limited growth. It does cast a pall over the entire industry and I think that worries a lot of agency leaders. Um, but I think there's great opportunity for growth. I mean, if you're a [00:11:00] smaller firm, not one of the large behemoths, it's easier to show growth in a way, you know, higher percentages and, you know, there's no rhyme or reason.

Across sectors. You know, some tech firms are doing great, some tech firms are suffering a bit. To me it feels like it's about culture in this moment and a real learning mindset that's who's winning.

Anne Green: That's really thoughtful, um, feedback and I agree with you. It's quite uneven. We used to be, well, one sector is suffering, as you said.

Another would be up. I've always been at firms that were quite, um, intentionally diversified in sectors, not. Jack of all trades, master of none. But, um, really having some depth of expertise across a number of sectors. And, you know, there's certain areas that you always see doing well that command to premium.

And I think that's gonna continue even into the age of ai, which shocking. We're gonna talk about AI later. What a surprise. Mm-hmm. Anyway, I, I know you had no idea that we would talk about this, but I wanna follow up on one thing. Which I think is very, [00:12:00] very important that you said, and I wanna make sure to spotlight it for our listeners, which is, this is a very intensive field in terms of just people's time constraints and the kind of time we devote to our client work and to, as you get more senior, the work of the agency or the group.

You know, we're in a multi-agency group and. Yet, it is an industry that is always learning, always growing, always changing and learning, and e evolution and personal growth. Professional growth is a must, and those things are intention. Sometimes the fact that you are. Busy and also billable is part of our profitability model.

We, we utilization the language of professional services, yet you have to also devote time outside of that billable hour to many different things, managing people personal learning, your performance evaluations, and now upskilling on ai. How do you see the tension between those two demands? Because I think you're really right in pointing that out, Kim.

Kim Sample: Yeah,

I, I think it's very difficult and um. I do think [00:13:00] it's an exciting opportunity to move away from a hundred percent time and materials billing, um, to create a little space for our people. And I think AI is starting to create some space for people, and I hope that it's gonna be applied to more learning instead of more client work.

But at the same time, I think the. Client environment is very, very tough right now, and they're under incredible pressure, which means we are under incredible pressure. So it, it's a tough one, but, um, you know, you and I are both fans of Rashad Tobacco Wallo and he talks about how your responsible for your career and.

You have to devote some time, some of your personal time to learning. And I, you know, I hate saying that because I know our days are long. Um, but I, I think that's the situation we're in. Companies have gotta make some time. Our firms do, but also [00:14:00] you've gotta direct your personal time.

Anne Green: Yeah, it's true. And you know, my partner who, you know, Steve Halsey, the co-host of the podcast, he has been talking recently about that personal and professional growth piece, which is.

Understanding it in terms of competence and relevance that you have to be, um, co-collaborators with your employer or your agency in ensuring that you remain competent in your job over the long term because. Things will shift and evolve and what competence is today will, and it's such an interesting word.

I, I was really struck when you said these two words, 'cause that made a lot of sense. But what competence looks like today, no matter what your role is, are you in creative account side communications, you know, digital paid, et cetera. Are you a leader of an agency and people, are you in hr, finance? But then also relevance, how relevant will you stay to your peers and your clients and to this moment in time?

So the, the Garner report to me is interesting. I'm glad you brought that up. It was heartening to see that there's been [00:15:00] so many different reports out there, and it, it kind of, I, I wanna lay a thought process out for you, Kim, and get your reaction to it, because. One thing that's bothering me a lot is what I see as a very reactive stance in the marketplace.

And that includes our field, but as well as the markets in general and society. So, you know, a report comes out, oh my gosh, it's got a prognostication about this part of the workforce. The markets move, people freak out, people write rebuttals, you know, and then rinse and repeat again and again. And it, it just feels like this desperate desire to say, do you know what's happening?

Do you know what's happening? Do you have the future? I think what I'd like to hear more of, and I'm gravitating toward people who have a perspective on this, is who has a vision that they wanna put forward for what the optimal mix of human and machine should be? Humans have upside and downside. Machines have upside and downside.

This will evolve. It's not like I'm saying I know exactly what things should look like today, but based on how the technology's evolving, how we're using it. The skill [00:16:00] sets we know we have within this field. Why it is that Gartner might have said that we will persist and flourish. I have a vision, and I know others do too, about what that optimal mix may look like.

What is your thought on that? I just feel that our industry could do so much more to be proactive and intentional with ourselves and with clients about let's tack toward the future, we believe is the optimal one.

Kim Sample: Right. I totally agree with you. And I think it goes back to that time, you know, the urgent tick priority.

I wonder how many firms have a very clear future looking AI manifesto, our strategy, that they are regularly revisiting. Uh, I think that's critical. Um. It was funny. Um, I was at amax, north American AI day last week. John Burke did a great job assembling real thought leaders. Um, and I can't [00:17:00] remember who, but someone was in, as part of their talk, talked about how ridiculous human in the loop is.

You know, and I hadn't really thought of it, but human in the loop like. That's sort of giving up a lot if we're just in the loop. Um, and I think that really raises some critical questions. You know, I think the humans in our industry bring creativity. They bring innovation, they bring relevance, they bring perspective, context, experience.

Um, we are sense makers. In a way that AI isn't there yet. Um, hope it never will be because I think there is the potential for us to stay ahead of ai, but use AI in powerful ways. Um, and so I like the way you are thinking about, you know, being proactive and. [00:18:00] Putting a stake in the ground. I think we need more of that.

Where do we want humans to be? Because if we're humans in the loop, I'm not sure we're gonna turn out our best work for clients. You know, I think it is human first, and it's funny because all those get defined a million different ways. But, um, let's not forget how important the humans are in our business.

Anne Green: That goes back to, you're reminding me, I love this conversation about interrogating this phrase, humans in the loop. Because we do use a lot of shorthand, and I think in general, like every industry has a lot of acronyms, but even ai, if you're not precise about it, we've talked about this before, what do we mean when we say ai?

What do we mean when we say DEI? What do we mean when we say, you know, um, ESG, these, these kinds of acronyms that stand in for large, large, large, multilayered, multi implication. You know, platforms, movements, practices, [00:19:00] uh, we really do ourselves a disservice. So I like the idea of interrogating that, and I think it's gonna take a lot of language and a lot of unpacking language to try to get more precise about what we want.

Uh, my hypothesis right now for our industry is, this is our year, maybe this year and next year, to really articulate to ourselves and to clients what it is, the future that we're driving toward. Um, who should be trusted partners, why? As we move into an age of age agentic AI and more age agentic workflows where the humans are orchestrators synthesizers, context and meaning makers.

I was talking with Aaron Quicken about this on a recent episode of the podcast and that that's gonna be really, really critical, but it starts with being proactive. Whether you're talking to procurement or the legal team or the IT team or clients that are collaborators on the comms or marketing space, it's, or to your own people.

Um, we're having a town hall shortly today, and part of it, I'll be trying to [00:20:00] re-clarify our ar ai vision around this conversation about the vision thing and driving forward in a more productive way. But I do hope that. You know, I feel, and I'd love to hear your point of view, I do think professional services has quite a bright future, but we're going to have to sit with again, where it is that humans really bring that layer of value and that layer of uniqueness or specialness.

I mean, how, how do you feel about professional services as a whole, even beyond the PR sector?

Kim Sample: Yeah, I think there's gonna be a lot of disruption. Um, but I think. Smart humans committed to learning will always add more value. I mean, we haven't even talked about the relationship piece and relationship piece.

I don't re mean, you know, remembering your client's birthdays, but really I. Being a trusted advisor. Um, and that is such a strong skill in our industry and across other professional [00:21:00] services, and that's what we have to remember. That is the. Core of our unique offering. Um, and if we're pushing out AI generated work without interrogating it, we're devaluing our firms so incredibly.

It's, and that's where I think we need a lot of conversation, which you have to make room for that conversation. And you know, it's not just. Posting your AI vision or manifesto or whatever it is, but it's doing how you're doing. It's it's repetition. It's inviting questions, it's inviting discussion. And again, where is the time?

You have to prioritize your time.

Anne Green: Yeah, and I think the relationship piece, you know, as we know there's such a long tail from COVID and so many implications like. To even say that phrase feels so much bigger than we can even wrap our hands around, our heads around in a [00:22:00] podcast. But the shattering and fragmentation of culture, society, relationships kind of atomizing almost of people.

And I think it just persists and persists. And I love hybrid work and I think it's really been so empowering, but that idea of. Being in person, but we can also see on the upside, tremendous desire to be in person and tremendous energy from that, although it's, it ebbs and flows. So I think the relationship piece is big.

When you talked about trust, it reminds me of something we have talked about a lot personally, which is the ethical landscape of our work. And the ethics piece touches on so much in our society right now. It's, um. It's something that's in my mind a lot. It's certainly a part of ai. It's very interesting when a lot of, at the big levels of ai, the big labs, et cetera, the governmental level, there's been no real desire for regulatory infrastructure a.

That's really been stripped back. And then at the big AI labs, the [00:23:00] idea of safety or alignment, you know, aside from anthropic, and it's been fascinating to watch this whole thing, even though they're the one racing forward fastest in some ways in terms of development. They do seem to keep that conversation going.

But I guess one of my questions, this is a big one, but it we have to talk about it, is what is the role in place of ethics today in the work we're doing? How do you like to talk about it? What are you hoping that. People like me or people within firms are thinking about this topic.

Kim Sample: I think it couldn't be more important, especially as ai. Adoption opera operationalization continues. Um, you know, we've discussed, we, we wanna do a review of our ethics guidelines, which I think we're the first to hit the market, and I was so proud of that work that you and Mark led. Um, but we need to keep bringing that out because I think there was a wave of interest in ethics and then [00:24:00] everybody got busy doing the work and.

I'm not sure we're reinforcing the ethics enough and the care, we have to use the bias in ai. And I think that warrants a lot more discussion and thinking and questioning than it's really getting at this moment. Do you agree? I'm, I'm concerned about

this.

Anne Green: I do. You know, and I, I wanna see it operating on multiple levels.

Like for example, um. Ethical decision making, having it as a lens. It's not this one time thing where like, oh, that's an ETH ethics breach because ethics breaches tend to happen like death by a thousand paper cuts over periods of time. Mm-hmm. You know, that leads you down a road or a mindset or a lens. Um,

but I also think that ethical decision making is an incredible.

You know that I wanna see the role of the counselor in our relationships with clients. We need to bring real value and insight and outside perspective. And one of those lenses is that ethical decision making lens in a communications or marketing framework, and [00:25:00] especially in a context where the larger society may not be.

Is interested in it and where there's a lot of boundary pushing. I don't have to get into politics to point to a thousand things where you're like, that does not feel good, seem good. And we're rolling back. A lot of protections and companies are being put in the spot in ways that it really was inconceivable in other contexts.

And you and I have been around long enough to see a lot of shenanigans at the business level, government level, but this, this right now is quite something. So. I think for me, just the discussion about the fact that it's not just AI safety, it's not just what's encoded into the tools, it's also how are we looking at the larger decision making framework, especially as these tools become more and more powerful in replicating humans, deep fakes, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

I just, we've always tried, you and I have both been proponents. And certainly the PR council has of more consistent ethical training. And you said Mark, mark McClennan. He's such an expert in the space. Just saw him in my office [00:26:00] last week, which was awesome. But you know, for he and you and I, this is a constant practice.

It's a constant, consistent discussion. It's not something you run once a year. So, yeah, I have a lot of concerns about this space. 'cause I, I don't even know that a lot of folks are set up to even embrace what it means to think about ethics on a bigger level. So Kim. We're coming to the end of our time here, but I wanted, I wanted to get just some final s sage advice from you.

You know, if you're talking to agency leaders and actually folks within all throughout our agencies, what is some advice you have for them to advance? Their career and their professional competence and relevance in this moment in time.

Kim Sample: Yeah, I, one of the things that's just been stuck in my head lately, and I think it's all of the conversation about value, we have to constantly.

Ensure we're delivering value. We need to move to value-based revenue models. But to really understand the value we're [00:27:00] delivering, I think we have to understand the numbers. So not everybody works for publicly traded companies, but if you do, those teams need to be reading analyst reports. They need to look at earnings call transcripts, um, annual reports, understand the different filings.

What they're signaling and AI makes it super easy to do that and pull insights. So there's really no excuse at this point other than time. But I think there are a lot of different ways that we can understand the real business challenges of our clients and add value. And I just encourage everybody to get super smart on that.

We have a session coming up at the um, end of April focused on the story behind the numbers, and I think that might spark some people to. Action. Hoping so.

Anne Green: I saw that and I thought that was great. The business of the business is so critical. We are looking right now at, um, all the different metrics we [00:28:00] provide to our teams to manage and understand client health and agency health and.

Steve, you know, again, my cohost on the podcast had a great idea and, and he, he flies small planes, so he's a pilot and the idea of an instrument dashboard on an airplane, he jokes like you could be focusing on altitude and then run into a mountain. You're just, you have to look at multiple metrics. And I think that's true of looking at our client's metrics and what is outcomes and what does value look like to their business, but also internally.

What are all those dials we have to turn? And they're not the same for every single client. And that's a hard thing. It's harder to work in a matrix than a simple hierarchy. It's hard to look at a dashboard of data instead of one metric, but I think you're right. That may be one of the single most important things that folks can do.

And as a final thought on the client side, what would, what's a piece of advice you would advise clients on as they seek an agency partner going forward?

Kim Sample: Uh, we just did a little study of our [00:29:00] CEOs and their advice for clients on value, and I think being really clear about the business objective, having agreement on that.

Uh. Sharing information freely and revisiting where are our outcomes and our outputs leading to the outcomes or do we need to tweak? And that is the wonderful thing about PR, is we now can change course tweak. At any point because we're seeing those results constantly. We're not waiting for the monthly delivery of clips as, um, I spent my early career doing, and I do, I think it's such an exciting time to be in our business and I, um, I hope people who are feeling a little overwhelmed can take a step back and give themselves a pep talk and really think about.

All the exciting ways that we can lead our clients and create business results. [00:30:00]

Anne Green: Yeah, I feel that as despite it is a lot of mental load. It just, there's a lot right now to parse through, but it, it is an exciting time and there's a lot of opportunity to be had and there's a lot of positive, um, signs. I'm, I'm picking up a lot of good signals, so.

Kim, I so appreciate you being on Building Brand Gravity and I encourage anybody who watches to the end, good job. Good job to you. Comment, share with Kim and me. We're both very accessible. You can find us, send us your thoughts and um, pass this along to somebody else if you think they wanna hear it. And Kim, thank you.

Have a great day.

Kim Sample: Thank you so much. I appreciate the opportunity and always love talking with you.

Anne Green: [00:00:00] You know, every company we work with is upgrading its tech stack, Steve, AI tools, data platforms, automation, personalization engines, and understandably, there's a lot of focus on the technology. But we're here today to assert that many of those same organizations are still running. What we would call an outdated operating system.

When it comes to narrative. This is how they make decisions, how they align leaders and leadership and how they show up in moments that matter.

Steve Halsey: Yeah, Anne, you know, I really like that and, and here's a core idea that we've been pressure testing that we should talk about. You know, narrative isn't just what you say about the business, it's actually how the business runs.

And here's why I think that matters more than ever right now, when your narrative system is outdated, no amount of AI channels or current velocity actually creates momentum. So think of it this way. Narrative isn't just what you say about the [00:01:00] business, it's actually the operating system or the os, uh, so to speak, that determines your success and vulnerability and adding pressure to this.

AI scales, whichever system or direction you already have. So if your narrative OS is broken, guess what? AI is gonna help you break it faster.

Anne Green: That is so true, and that's what we wanna unpack today, why narrative itself has become the new operating system for brands and organizations, and what happens when companies fail to upgrade it.

Steve Halsey: Welcome everyone to the latest episode of Building Brand Gravity. I'm Steve Halsey.

Anne Green: And I'm Ann Green.

Steve Halsey: And in this era of AI acceleration, channel fragmentation and seemingly constant crisis. Brands don't fail because they lack tools. They fails because their narrative systems are outdated and to further ground our discussion.

When we say narrative as an operating system, [00:02:00] we don't mean a tagline or a campaign. We mean the shared logic that governs how leaders interpret complexity, make decisions, deploy technology, and show up under pressure. It's that invisible system running in the background of an organization.

Anne Green: I love that idea of an invisible system.

We're gonna use a lot of different metaphors today to try to unpack that. And on today's episode of Building Brand Gravity, we're sticking to just Steve and me. No outside guest today, Steve, because we wanted to devote time to exploring why narrative. Our assertion has become the new operating system for brands and organizations.

And Steve, I think the first thing we need to do is define our terms, make this concept tangible and not just theoretical. And I know you've been thinking about this a lot. In fact, this was one of your 2026 predictions, which are all on record, by the way, for our listeners on the first podcast of season four back in January.

So do you wanna kick us off here? What do you mean? When you say [00:03:00] narrative is an operating system.

Steve Halsey: Yeah. So when we talk about narrative as an operating system, the real question is what does that actually govern day to day inside an organization? So when I think of narrative as an operating system, we're not talking about messaging frameworks or brand campaigns as more traditional ways to think about narrative.

We're talking about the shared logic and meaning. That basically governs how leaders interpret complexity, make trade-offs, deploy technology, and really decide how to show up under pressure. And it's bigger than just messaging and it becomes an organization's de facto DNA. And this is really where, where we see it either succeed or fail, and often where, where we see that disconnect.

So let me give you an example. So if you have a healthcare company that sets a strategy around. Patient first. Innovation powered by ai. Everybody's gonna sign off on that direction and [00:04:00] gonna be really excited about it. Then in real world decision making, things start to happen. The product team wants to launch AI as fast.

To stay competitive as possible. So they are off and running. Mm-hmm. Legal wants to slow everything down and manage the regulatory risk. And comms is out there trying to emphasize transparency and caution to make sure that they're protecting trust around the brand. So what you have in this case is the same foundational strategy of using AI to basically accelerate that patient experience.

But three very different and distinct instincts in the moment. And so when narrative that kind of, uh, underlying glue that holds everything together isn't clearly defined, the strategy starts to fracture under pressure. Each leader is acting very rationally, but through a different meaning system, a different kind of context.

And so. A defined narrative [00:05:00] operating system would tell everyone, how do you weigh speed versus safety versus trust and concepts like that. Not just what the strategy is, but how do you make the trade-offs when that strategy collides with reality, and how do you make those trade-offs in a way that is genuine to the brand, to the business?

And you know, to the strategy that we were talking about. That's why we keep coming back to this idea that strategy sets the direction, where are you going? But narrative actually embeds the operating logic day to day for how decisions actually get made, particularly when things get messy.

Anne Green: I think it's a really powerful way to think about cohesion of thought and action in an organization.

And I've, I've been thinking a lot about this since you first. I brought this up to me, I think even at the end of last year. So the questions that come to mind for me, what are the guiding principles behind a given strategy? Can [00:06:00] we articulate the narrative around and behind them tied to organizational mission?

Vision values as well as current business objectives, right? Does this all hang together executive to executive, no matter what their functional area may be? Can this narrative scale up and down and across to reach into every part of the company? Those, to me, are some of the key questions that you're raising with this premise.

And another way, Steve, I'm thinking about this, um, and I'll see what you think about my, um, framework here. Is cons, um, contrasting the small n little n narrative, like messaging. And we do a lot of messaging in our field with capital N narrative as a true operating system, right? So basic ideas of narrative tend to be rooted in output.

Like I created a message document, um, like here's a page of messages about a murder merger or product launch. You know that stuff we do every day, right? That's narrative too, in a [00:07:00] sense, but it's more functional or transactional. That's to me, the small or little n of narrative as output. I think the bigger way you're suggesting that we explore is narrative as foundational, narrative as infrastructure.

And Steve knows, and many other listeners know, I love the word legible recently. So in this case. I feel like this foundational narrative helps make the organization legible to itself and to everybody in it. Does that resonate with you, Steve?

Steve Halsey: A hundred, a hundred percent. Ann, uh, think of it this way. If narrative lives downstream from decisions, then it's really kind of cosmetic.

But if narrative lives upstream of decision, it becomes much more strategic.

Anne Green: I love that soundbite. 'cause frankly, that that's the tension we know a lot of folks feel within their organization. Certainly a lot of our clients deal with when there's a tension there. So to me the concept's really powerful and, and I find it kind of inspiring frankly, because it gets to something underlying that I think you and I both feel is there, but it's not [00:08:00] articulated.

I do think communication. Deeper level underlies and everything, including the narratives we establish about the foundation of our businesses and our lives, our personal lives, and our communities. It has to be intentional. It has to be systemic. That's why the idea of an operating system resonated so fully with me the first time you shared it.

But you know, the fact that a concept may be resonant to me or you Steve, doesn't mean it's easy, easy to grasp or easy to implement. So I think where we start to see that complexity is that organizations are structurally fragmented by design. There's brand. Versus performance and I, and it's not always versus, but it's sometimes corporate versus product.

You know, strategy versus activation. Sometimes leadership vision versus employee interpretation. Sometimes stakeholder Y versus stakeholder Z because they're not always aligned. You get the idea. So sometimes I think we do view this as a problem to be solved by messaging. Messaging is important. I don't wanna diminish [00:09:00] that.

This kind of complexity is not just about communications as an output. Again, it's really more of a systems problem. And I would say it's a connecting the dots kind of problem. I mean, Steve, how do you see this?

Steve Halsey: Yeah, I think, I think you're, I think you're, you're really, um, tracking well with what I'm, what I'm thinking here, and basically it's in the complexity that this really shows up in, in practice.

Because as we all know, complexity doesn't get solved by just choosing one path. Rarely does it, does that, is that ever the case? It gets solved by really connecting what others separate, right? How do you pull those, those divergent parts together and when leaders cannot. Connect dots across, as you said, brand performance, product activation, stakeholders.

The organization tends to default into silos even when everyone has good intentions, and we see this all the time, you know, brand teams start optimizing for [00:10:00] long-term trust. Performance teams are optimizing for short term. Uh, conversion. So little tension starts there. Product teams optimize for speed and greater output.

People, teams are optimizing towards work life balance, and leadership is really trying to optimize for the street. So individually, while everyone is acting rationally, they're not necessarily acting in concert or in a very consistent vector together. So collectively, the organization can begin to feel a little bit.

Incoherent if everybody isn't, uh, to use a bad analogy, rowing in the same direction. And that's not a talent problem. I mean, that's what it looks like when an organization doesn't have a shared operating system to really help govern those trade-offs. The operating system should really determine whether leaders experience complexity as constant trade offs.

Or whether they see the connections that others miss and can [00:11:00] move the organization towards coherence and towards new level of success, particularly when you have things being thrown at you left and right every day.

Anne Green: Yeah, and I, I think narrative is what allows the clarity to actually turn into activation and activation into momentum.

So, but let's get more specific and try to make this real for our listeners. And I think as, as people hear, what I'm gonna share, like two examples, just reflecting on how is this more than strategy? How does this take things like values and actually build them into something that's operation that you can operationalize and, and many other connections like that.

But if we revisit the healthcare example, so let's take the example of a large health system. We do work in healthcare among many other sectors. So that's a very complex operating environment, and it's a very high pressure and complex industry, especially right now when it's clear across every person. Um, you know that the team, which prioritizes decisions, they have to prioritize decisions that are best for the [00:12:00] patient.

When everyone knows that that's the foundational narrative and operating system and all whi the North Star, then that narrative becomes a lot more. It becomes actual action and decision making. It can cascade across many different roles in the system. So like a frontline worker, they have a litmus test for decision making and urgent or challenging moments, right?

And, and they themselves, by the way, can then challenge back up the chain when they feel moments that the narrative operating system is going offline, where they're not aligning with what is that foundational narrative operating system they're trying to adhere to another case. That came to mind as I thought about this is a, is a hard one in the airline industry for United Airlines, which has really done a lot of good work around this.

But years ago you may remember, um, there was a really disturbing incident of a passenger that was dragged off of a plane mm-hmm. While they were sitting at the gate. And there was a lot to that story. And if people don't remember, you can google it and read about it. But there was a lot [00:13:00] involved there with individuals following the book at the time, sort of the letter of what supposedly was procedure.

But when you zoom out, and I give United a lot of credit for recognizing this, that action. Was so unfortunate, but was really deeply out of alignment with the narrative operating system and the core values. And by the way, I do not see those as one-to-one, but they're deeply aligned of the organization and it underscored work that they needed to do to reinforce that operating system.

The narrative, what we stand for, how the values are brought to life, minute by minute, day by day. And also to explore the systemic issues that broke it in that, you know, broke that narrative cohesion in the moment. And ultimately, you know, this led to a lot more empowerment for their frontline staff, both on and off the planes to make decisions that supported passenger safety and the experience.

I fly them all the time, as I know you often do too, and I think it's been really material. [00:14:00] The change is there. So that's some storytelling about how hard it is on its own. But now Steve, we've gotta add another layer here, which is we gotta bring AI into the mix,

Steve Halsey: of

Anne Green: course. So, right. Course you gotta bring AI in.

So I have

Steve Halsey: a podcast without ai.

Anne Green: No, really it wouldn't be building brand gravity these days without us talking about AI for at least a short time. Everyone knows. But you know, if we look at the challenges and opportunities of AI, and I think they're both, AI increases speed, it increases volume of everything, literally everything coming at you in the organization, and it increases something you said earlier, which is the surface area of risk.

There's just a lot more risk. So, you know, I'm gonna turn this over to you, Steve. How does AI further complicate this picture?

Steve Halsey: Well, I think you're ab absolutely right, Anne AI does increase speed, volume, and, and risk, you know, which is, which is why we keep coming back to this, uh, concept we've been talking about.

AI doesn't replace [00:15:00] narrative. But it exposes whether you have one and whether it's a right one. Honestly, when narrative isn't clearly defined, AI can very quickly become a liability because it ends up becoming the defacto substitute for leadership clarity, and you really don't want that, but you see it in a few predictable ways.

When the narrative operating system is weak, AI kind of accelerates the inconsistency. You see the scaling of confusing misalignment because every team basically is prompting from a different point of view for what the brand is trying to be, and the results taken in very different direction. But when the narrative operating system is really strong, AI does the opposite.

If you can really focus it. It can reinforce strategic coherence. It can become leverage instead of noise because everybody is operating from the same meaning system, the same approach. And we're seeing [00:16:00] leadership teams roll out AI co-pilots for content for sales. For comms, and then suddenly the brand sounds like it's coming from five different companies, depending upon who's prompted what in the tool.

Now, when I see issues like that, the issue isn't ai. The issue is that the organization has never really aligned around that narrative operating system or put the guardrails in to ensure that the AI is reflecting the DNA of that corporation. So that's why when we talk about AI as an accelerant, not a strategy.

We need to make sure that narrative is there to be a bit of a governor on the, uh, automation. You know, if it's the narrative, if the narrative operating system isn't set. You're just gonna go really fast, but in the wrong direction.

Anne Green: I think that's really wise, you know, and, and frankly now we know with AI discovery, and that's something we work on a great deal with our clients.

Um, that's [00:17:00] the first step of how people are understanding you. And you're right, there's a lot of content being generated out there. So both inside and outside the organization that legibility and clarity is critical. So there is another area we really have to touch on here and that's when an organization experiences a crisis.

Now Steve, luckily for us, the world is really sedate and stable and nothing is going on right now.

Steve Halsey: Mellow, chill,

Anne Green: really mellow. Okay. Haha, haha. That's not a best joke in these volatile times. You know, if, if we're not on the news cycle for five minutes, God knows what will happen while we're gone recording this podcast.

But you know, joking aside, how organizations. Prepare for and manage and come out of crises today is so important. I, I personally, feel like the stakes have never been higher on by many definitions. So when confronting a crisis, those of us in marketing communications often watch the following happen.

Unfortunately. Formal structures fail or begin to fall apart. And frankly, [00:18:00] that's if they were even cohesive to begin with. And that's not always a given. When it comes to crisis preparedness, crisis playbooks that are carefully created can get skipped or really scrambled in the moment, and then chains of command can get compressed or confused.

And ultimately what you see reveals in a crisis what is actually underneath, and it's pretty instructive. What remains. You know, when things are falling apart in a crisis is the o organization's operating logic. And, uh, that's not always a pretty site. I think you would agree, Steve.

Steve Halsey: Oh, I a hundred, a hundred percent.

And I, I think unfortunately in a crisis you don't get the luxury of process. A lot of times we think we'll have time for the process, but crisis doesn't just reveal your messaging for. Framework, as you said, it reveals your operating system. All those things you, you know, are you living your value? What's your core character?

What are all those things? But if that's not fundamentally in place in your DNA [00:19:00] before the crisis hits, you see the cracks immediately. Right. Values get talked about, but behaviors don't line up to that. You know, speed and coherence start to feel like they're almost going a little bit in opposite direction, and leaders can interpret the same situation through completely different lenses.

And increasingly AI generated response can then outpace that actual decision clarity. It sounds good enough, maybe we should go with it, right? But in real crisis situations, we often see two forces collide. Leaders are trying to move fast to protect, uh, the business, to rectify what is going on, to safeguard communities.

All of those things make them wanna move really fast. Yet the organization also wants to try and stay on brand. So when narrative isn't embedded all the way upstream in your DNA, speed and coherence, sometimes feel mutually exclusive. And that's when we start to see statements get walked [00:20:00] back. Leaders contradict each other, stress goes up, trust erodes, not because people don't care.

I found they, they always care deeply. But because the operating system isn't guiding decisions in real time in a way that is instinctive and natural.

Anne Green: Yeah, and I think you're right that leaders in really organ. People throughout the organization always care deeply. And you know, a lot of work goes into guiding a given organization across many dimensions of complexity, including crises.

But that underlying framework that goes beyond a statement of values or strategy that gives real language to what we stand for and what we intend to do. It needs to be strong and clear every day, but particularly in crisis situations, everything just gets more exposed in those moments. So I'm glad we had a chance to talk about the crisis.

Issue.

Steve Halsey: Yeah. Yeah. I think that, I think that's important, but I don't wanna spend the whole time talking about crisis or, or ai. But when we think about narrative as an operating system, you know, and we, we've [00:21:00] had the ability to pressure test this our ourselves, you know, across, uh, our two go to market agencies, uh, GNS, business Communications, and Morgan Myers.

We operate across a lot of different markets. We have a lot of different disciplines. Uh, you know, our clients have a lot of different go to market models, so you really can't rely on org charts to create coherence, especially as you grow. I mean, you really need to have a shared operating logic. So as we've grown and developed and matured, um, over time, we felt some of the same.

Tensions that our clients feel different teams operating for different outcomes, different markets pulling in different directions, different disciplines, interpreting what matters most in their own way. None of it was wrong. It's just a part of that process of of evolution. And so that forced us to really step back and reestablish our own narrative as an operating system and not just from refreshed [00:22:00] positioning or, or things like that, but to really rethink about how.

Our structure actually supports clarity, activation, and momentum because we realize that structure follows that core operating system narrative, not the other way around. Um, and our narrative operating system also determines how teams collaborate, how dec shit cision light rights work. How workflows go across discipline, where AI should be used as an accelerant versus where human judgment still has to lead.

And so we centered all this around, um, some concepts that we called Lead the change, which was directionally the strategy where we're going. A core part of that narrative development was around what we called freedom to Operate, which was basically saying, we accept that all things are not equal, and we accept that different parts of our organization, those leaders need to be empowered to be close to the client, to be deeply involved in those [00:23:00] industries, but have the freedom to say, you know what?

I know what's gonna work best for me. Give me the freedom to operate in that way. And what I think was fascinating and, and I appreciate you kind of your thought on this. We just got back from visiting all five of our office and you know what we learned? What I learned was that that narrative, um, os isn't just a positioning exercise, it shapes how everything works.

And to see the excitement. Of our, of our teams and the empowerment of it. I just think that just really was a great opportunity for us, uh, to kind of evolve our own narrative system in a way that really gets everybody aligned and understand that the narrative operating system is really leadership behavior.

It's not just aligning words on a website.

Anne Green: Yeah, I love visiting our offices. It was so great doing our roadshow. You know, we have people in many, many states, so more than just our five physical offices, but we got to see a lot of our staff in person. It was [00:24:00] amazing to see how much, 'cause we asked folks what resonated around these.

Changes we've made in this evolution we're undergoing, which is really about how we work and, and supporting our clients even better than we do today. And a lot of that that came across was the idea of the freedom to operate. You could really feel that underlying narrative structure resonating through and as you said, resonating in terms of how we actually operationalize and move forward.

So that, that was exciting. And, um. You made a point about leadership behavior and how that's so critical here, not just aligning words on the website. It's actually aligning leadership. I, I couldn't agree more on this, and really, to me, it's leadership behavior, but also leadership mindset are essential.

Steve and everyone else. And my orbit knows, I've been on the idea of mindset. I mean, this is a well established idea, but in terms of what I've been talking about a lot and what I think is really critical, I've been talking about that mindset question for the last two years pretty [00:25:00] intensely. Um, there's good reasons why, because in moments of tremendous change and transformation and all sectors are going through that right now, we need to think about that leadership lens and the mindset.

And to me it means a couple of different things. So, first. Recognizing that the narrative OS or operating system is an actual leadership discipline. It's not just a comms initiative, as in, here's your page of message point leader. You know, I don't wanna diminish. That's very important too. It's part of the work that we do every day, but it's a fundamental understanding that the underlying narrative, who we are.

Why we do what we do, how that understanding shapes and guides every conversation and interaction, no matter how large or small that we understand how this is all connected. And, you know, I was really reminded of this Friday. Um, we're recording this at a time where there's been a lot of exciting weather going on around, uh, the Midwest and the East Coast.

And I had the chance to spend about 13 hours commuting through, uh. [00:26:00] Three different airports last Friday and had a bunch of delays. And coming from Chicago to Newark on United, again, I was lucky enough to sit next to a pilot who was fairly young and a great guy, and you know, as we got sent back to the gate with a ground hold and he was explaining to me what he was seeing, you know, on, on the pilot, the good pilot stuff.

So I knew it was happening. People were asking him questions. We just started chatting about life and stuff that was going on, and him wanting to get home and having a 1-year-old. His wife having carpal tunnel surgery and just, just a lot of nice chatting and not putting pressure on him. 'cause he's a pilot, tell me everything, but just being really human.

And at the end, as we were getting up to leave, we finally got to New York and I said, Hey, it was so nice talking to you. I really enjoyed it. He's like, I really liked talking to you too. And hey, thanks for choosing United.

Steve Halsey: Wow.

Anne Green: And I was so taken. Wow. It so caught me up in that moment because that's their tagline, right?

That's what they would hope. In their prayers and leadership that [00:27:00] every employee would say, and he did it so spontaneously and so naturally that my reaction was pure delight and surprise and just like, yes, of course, like you. This is great. You're great. It's all great. Even though I had literally Steve been through mm-hmm.

Hours and hours of delays and so. I think I wanted to tell that story 'cause we're talking about a lot of things that might seem lofty, but I wanted to bring it to a really emotional level. You can see from that story how your narrative operating system becomes like the air you breathe as a leader, as how you show up every day, and as well as how you govern decisions and frame the direction you give to others.

So I hope that, I hope that helps bring this to life for folks even more.

Steve Halsey: It does and, and what, what I think is so powerful about that example, it also shows that if you have that core narrative and that leadership clarity, it carries on to everybody, like frontline employees, everybody. And you know, even though it's such a difficult [00:28:00] experience, your reflection on that is, yeah.

Wow. I really, I really trust that brand. I trust the professionals there. It's just really, really powerful. Well, you know, on, uh, building brand Gravity, we like, uh, must be getting near the end 'cause it's time for some practical, uh, takeaways for people to be thinking about. So wanna give you some things to think about, uh, your commute to the morning, whether it's, uh.

Taking a train, a plane, or just walking down the hall, depending upon, uh, where you may be. Uh, wanna give you kind of a three part gut check for you to think about with your leadership team as it comes to narrative as an operating system. Number one is what narrative actually governs how decisions get made.

Not what's on the strategy slide, we already covered that, but what shows up in the moment when trade-offs get real? Exactly like what you just experienced. Secondly, or number two, does our use of AI reinforce [00:29:00] coherence across the organization or does it fragment how we show up in the marketplace? That is really critical.

We don't just wanna amplify at scale. Things if there, if we really don't have that kind of core DNA pretty locked in. And third, ask yourself this, if we had a real crisis tomorrow, what story would our response tell about how we actually operate as leaders? You know what if the answers to those three questions are a bit uncomfortable, it's not a failure.

It's just a signal that your operating system needs some attention.

Anne Green: Yeah, if those answers are unclear, your operating system needs an upgrade, and I think those three questions are really powerful to step back and put what we've been talking about today in, in some really stark relief. We spend a lot of time and we across many organizations, not just we as an agency, upgrading tools and platforms and AI and channels, but you know, I think our [00:30:00] big message today is the companies that actually build momentum, especially now in a very fragmented.

Information environment that's made even more complicated by ai. As you well said, the ones that are gonna build momentum are the ones that are gonna upgrade how they think and decide and really make sure that that narrative is embedded throughout the whole organization.

Steve Halsey: Yeah, and to, and to take that a little bit further, I mean, I really feel like the brands that are gonna win the next decade.

They're not just gonna have better messaging, they're gonna fundamentally have better operating systems. You know, ones that turn complexity into coherence, AI into advantage and narrative into momentum. So think about it this way, you know, narrative isn't what you say about the business, it's how the business runs.

Anne Green: And that's how brands don't just manage change. They can lead it, which is very important to us and all the clients we work with. So thank you for joining us on another episode of Building Brand Gravity. I hope it was enjoyable to hear us reflect on something. We'd love to hear reactions from you to this one and [00:31:00] get your sense of agreed disagree, add on to it, and we have a lot more to come across season four, so make sure you stay tuned for further conversations.

Thanks for joining us today.

Natalie Nixon: [00:00:00] In the early stages of researching and writing, Move. Think. Rest.. I thought the title of this book would be Invisible Work because my premise is that it's often when we step away from the desk, when our work isn't trackable and traceable, that our most generative work is happening. And it turns out the neuroscience of the brain shows that we actually need.

To toggle between that neo frontal cortex and the default moat network. Zooming in, zooming out to do our best work.

Steve Halsey: Welcome to another episode of Building Brand Gravity. I'm Steve Halsey.

Anne Green: And I'm Anne Green. Nice to see you, Steve, in this cold weather we're having right now.

Steve Halsey: Great to see you as well.

Anne Green: Yeah. You know, Steve, um, when we are thinking about our intro today, I just can't get away from the inescapable amount of talk about and focus on AI these days, especially regarding workforce too.

And [00:01:00] you know, I think rightly so. As we've touched on in so many of our prior podcast discussions, I think one of the most critical factors in this transformation is not technology. It's us, the humans.

Steve Halsey: Yeah. I think, I think you're exactly right, Anne. I mean, what's, what's really striking to me is we've spent so much time over the last couple of years talking about what AI can do, right?

Faster content, smarter analysis, more automation. We really haven't spent nearly enough time talking about how humans show up differently in this environment. Because I think that's the real advantage is, is not just technical fluency, it's the judgment, the creativity is the context, right? So, and it's also the ability to ask better questions and connect those ideas in ways that the machine can't, and decide what actually matters.

And, and as you said, I think that's where the human layer becomes not just relevant. Essential.

Anne Green: Yeah. And I am happily seeing more discussion about how this AI transformation [00:02:00] moment and really societal transformation too, has to be as much about people as technology. I think you and I have agreed that was really missing from the dialogue almost entirely in 2024 and was still pretty thin in 2025.

So I think there's a lot of opportunity, yet there's also so much dissonance that people are feeling about the space, right? It's like. I'm constantly talking about that dynamic tension of encouraging folks to embrace and experiment with the thing that they also just secretly and not so secretly worry does this take my job?

And you know, on the AI and job subject, I was reading a newsletter you and I read all the time. Diane Brady's Fortune, CEO Daily, and it was actually today when we're recording. And she reports on a discussion she had at Davos with the CEO of Recruit Holdings. Now, for those who aren't familiar with that name, Recruit Holdings is the entity that owns both Indeed and Glassdoor.

So they got a lot of human-centric insight that CEO is saying to Diane. He feels from the research that only a small fraction of recent layoffs [00:03:00] in 2025, et cetera, can be directly attributed to ai. AI, yet he also said that workers are feeling real anxiety that this is exactly what's happening. So they went on to discuss also the fact that there absolutely will be changes in how leaders assess and source talent.

And I know you and I agree that that is true. There's no doubt about it. So I guess ultimately for me, as I reflect on this, it continues to point to that need to think differently about work and then also our specific contributions as humans in the loop.

Steve Halsey: Yeah. And I think, I think that's the tension right now, Anne, that, that so many of us are feeling, I mean, on the one hand, the data doesn't support, as you point, the idea that, uh, I, AI is gonna just wholesale replace all our jobs overnight.

But on the other hand, for so many of us, the very nature of the work we're doing is clearly changing. And that creates uncertainty and that creates very real anxiety. And so I think what we're seeing in his shift. Isn't whether humans are needed. It's [00:04:00] what humans are needed for, right? It's really moving from.

Kind of thinking about the use of AI and the AI-human connection is purely transactional or repetitive work replacement to one where it's really now how can they be married, so to speak, in synthesis creativity. And that's kind of what I don't know. You know me, I like to make up terms. My new one is meaning making.

So meaning making is how can we. Focus more on contribution over execution. So that's what I love about what you're talking about, about this idea of humans in the loop, not so much from a dystopian safety net. Let's, you know, make sure somebody can press the off button on this thing, but really what is that value multiplier?

Because the future of work. I really don't believe it's about competing with machines. It's about collaborating with them and learning how to integrate the things that only people can do in a very meaningful way.

Anne Green: So [00:05:00] all of this, we've been talking about the nature of work shifting, what we're discovering about what humans can do, the meaning making.

This all really resonates with the conversation I had earlier today with Natalie Nixon. Now that name may sound familiar to the frequent listeners. She appeared on Building Brand Gravity in early 2025, where we interrogated an excellent question, which is, are we all creative? And spoiler, her answer is yes.

She has a ton of insight and data to share on that topic. So, and I'm kind of obsessed with her framework of tapping into both wonder as well as rigor, and that's core to what she talks about. So I really encourage listeners to check that one out. But Natalie is back. She has a new book titled Move Think, rest, which digs deeply into understanding how it work and productivity.

Our whole idea of productivity has to shift with the changing times. She's worked across multiple fields, including as an academic. And she's now, you know, an author [00:06:00] and a very sought after public speaker, and also a creativity catalyst for all kinds of organizations. We had such a rich discussion, Steve.

I can't wait to get it out in the world. So with that, here is my conversation with friend of the pod, Natalie Nixon. I am so thrilled to welcome the wonderful Natalie Nixon back to building Brand Gravity for her second episode. And for those who remember her from last year friend of the pod, she is a very multi hyphenate career person, has been an academic, has been an author, now, a new book which we're gonna discuss, a prior book, um, and consultant and just all around creative person and a friend of mine, Natalie.

So good to see you. Good

Natalie Nixon: to see you, and thank you so much for having me back. Excited for our conversation.

Anne Green: That's right. So last year, for those who missed it, you can go to our YouTube page or on wherever you get your podcast and find our episode where we talked a lot about creativity. It was tied to Natalie's last book, the Creativity Leap, unleash Curiosity and [00:07:00] Improvisation and Intuition at Work.

And that was a lot about the question of are we all creative? And I highly recommend that episode, but I was super excited. To bring Natalie back now because she has a new book. It's called Move. Think. Rest. Got it. Right here. And you can tell I'm reading it Natalie 'cause the dust jacket is at home, right?

That's my tell, right? That I'm actually reading this book and carrying it around with me. But the subtitle is Redefining Productivity and Our Relationship with Time. So I have to start Natalie with the forward quote to your book, and I have it here to all of us who want to do less better. What does this statement mean to you, and why did you start the book that way?

Natalie Nixon: Well, I started the book this way actually because I was given an award by a speaker community, um, for, and my, the category in which I won was my, my award was entitled, Do Less Better. And I was in the middle of writing, Move. Think. Rest. When I received this award, and I think [00:08:00] the reason I won in that category was because they were observing that I worked in a very scrappy way, that I work in a very lean way.

And, and part part of that is out of need. And part of that is as, as one grows, as an entrepreneur of business, it's about hiring the right people to scaffold you. And I've increasingly done that. But as I was writing this book, that's a fresh take on productivity that's examining the ways we have thought about productivity and might wanna reexamine because of burnout.

New rules for, for work and ubiquitous technology. I thought this premise of. Of doing less better is really relevant. It's not about being less productive, but it is about being much more discerning, intentional about the ways that we are using our time, shifting away from only an outputs metric, and orientation about.

What is valuable in our work to how we can be [00:09:00] approaching work in a much more integrative way so that we are fulfilled so that it's not about busyness and an addiction to busyness. It's not about productivity theater, but it's about being very intentional about what we do with our time, which means we may be doing less, but because we are integrating, and I know we'll talk about this more.

Movement and thought and rest into the workday. Whether we are working solo or in a team in a large organization, we actually will, uh, contribute much higher quality output. So that's what that do less, better proclamation is really about.

Anne Green: I love it and I feel we're all, you know, I used to call it the cult of busyness where people wield it like a weapon.

Like I'm so busy. And it, it really is a very, just puts you right down the drain because everybody can wield their own busyness and it's, it's not that productive. But I do wanna, I do wanna peel back [00:10:00] the core tenet of your book. And I think there was a bit of a history lesson in the beginning, you know, which was really fascinating, which is the history of productivity and how we understand it today.

You know, it's this central organizing principle in our lives, right? Yet in many ways it feels like it's either in invisible or that we all just assume we know what it means. Like what are we talking about when we're talking about productivity? And I think this is becoming even more acute now given what's happening with ai.

So can you give us some grounding here in how we're understanding productivity today? And where you have some critiques of that. I know it's a big question, but whatever you feel is helpful to ground us in this conversation.

Natalie Nixon: Well, it's very interesting that you did use the word invisible because in the early stages of researching and writing, Move. Think. Rest..

I thought the title of this book would be Invisible Work because my premise is that. It's often when we step away from the desk when our work isn't trackable and traceable, that our most generative [00:11:00] work is happening. And it turns out the neuroscience of the brain shows that we actually need, uh, to toggle between that neo frontal cortex and the default mote network.

Zooming in, zooming out to do our best work. I didn't call it invisible work because I did not wanna detract from the work of feminists who, who have really. Done a lot of important work to talk about women's unaccounted for work, which is invisible work. I didn't wanna conflate the two, but when I was setting out to offer an alternative way for us to think about the workday, the ways we design policy around work in our organizations, the way we, we, we take care of ourselves so that we do our best work, I realized I had to first understand what I was reacting to.

And so the first industrial revolution is still. Something that lingers in the ways that we think about our best work. So the first industrial revolution took place starting around the 1860s and it really began a process of valuing work that was [00:12:00] what I call an either or model of work. And it was a model that really, uh, valued output speed.

Efficiencies. You measure only what you can see. And the challenge is that a lot of the ways that we do work today is not traceable. So for example, the gross domestic product, uh, does not measure email. It doesn't account for search engine work to the biggest things that help knowledge workers at least do the work.

And so then I started thinking about, well. What did the world of work look like? For the most part, before the first industrial revolution, and most economies were agricultural economies, and then I started playing around with this metaphor of cultivation. I know what we'll get. We probably get into that a little bit more later, but that's, that's a bit more of a both and model.

And when we c. It's not [00:13:00] either or. It's we're measuring the solo practitioner and the collective we, or we value both. We value speed, but we also understand the role of slow over time. And we also know that yes, we have to measure what we see and there's a lot that's happening when we need to sleep on it.

We need things to percolate and marinate. So the. The, the, the gentleman who is really tied to the first industrial revolution, revolution is, is Frederick Winslow Taylor, who, uh, was a big industrial engineer. He actually valued creativity, but he was known for during factory work, really trying to down to the minute, uh, use a stopwatch to understand speed and efficiency of humans because we were really trying to get humans to mimic.

Machine. And I think fast forward to the 21st century, the opportunity is not for humans to mimic ai, uh, our, [00:14:00] our newfound machine. But, but for to figure out how the ai, how the machine can amplify, what makes us uniquely human, can be much more of our co-pilot, our co-creator, uh, and not be the endpoint. The catalyst in a lot of times to help us do greater critical thinking to help us now make time for spaciousness, for more meaningful collaboration and those sorts of, of things that are so important for our best work to get done.

Anne Green: There's so much that you said I resonate with. I'm such a both and person. I mean, anybody who works with me here or clients would know. The binary thinking is so destructive in so many ways, and we're seeing that in our society as a whole, right? The zero sum game and truly multiple things are true at once.

And I like the idea of the both and of valuing, let's say, those outputs, but also the rumination that comes from it. And I also think that some of those. That history and that background, the framework, it kind of helps us understand like [00:15:00] what system are we in right now and why does it produce itself like this?

And, and it touches on so many things I'm thinking about deeply as a leader, which is what is the human and the machine interaction? How do we, we create a future, not sitting around being like, gee whiz Sam Altman, what will happen to us in the future? It's like all respect to open ai, but what is the future we want to see and envision.

What is that interplay of man and machine, because machines have upsides and downsides. I'm talking about the AI of it all, and also humans have upsides and downsides, and so to get back to, I think the other big connection for my next question to you is that there's been such a wrestling. Over the past, I don't know, few decades, but more acutely the last few years.

I think COVID put this in sharp relief about that integr of us as humans and workers and the mental health piece and the mindfulness and. When are we overwhelmed by tasks and pings and notifications? I mean, you and I just shut up [00:16:00] all our notifications before we got on this podcast, right? And that keeping the brain, I think of it on the track.

On the track, on the track versus what you're talking about. Move and think and rest. And what is that, as you call it, MTR framework.

Natalie Nixon: Well, so the move, think, rest framework is a very integrative framework. What it is not saying is first you move, then you think and then you rest. Maybe that would be lovely if it was in that nice, neat pat order, but that's not actually what we need.

That's not how we move through the world and through our day. And it's, as I was writing and researching and doing up to 60 interviews for this book. I realized that I couldn't even write it in that very siloed way. I mean, there's a chapter on move, there's a chapter on thought, there's a chapter on rests, but I really signaled for the readers.

Early on that this is very integrative, that there are times when you're moving where you're actually, your best thoughts emerge. [00:17:00] There are times when, uh, you that that your form of rest, um, sparks greater thought and it, it might even be the rest is actually a break. So when I talk about movement, I'm talking about movement hygiene.

I'm not talking about get a gym membership. I'm really advocating for our. Reckoning that. An acknowledgement that we are designed to move because the spinal cord is an extension of the brain. And if we sit for too long at the laptop and get cramped up, we will. We will restrict and right, we'll restrict and constrict blood flow to the brain, which means we will limit oxygen to the brain, which means we will not be doing our best thinking and that even.

Goes for people who have to drive an Amazon delivery truck all day or standing at a cash register. Um. In a retail environment, how are we practicing movement hygiene so that there's [00:18:00] diversity in movement and that we are allowing people to have some, some agency in, in, in how they're moving. Because when we move, our ideas move.

That's the link there when I talk about thought. I'm not only talking about rational, cognitive, clear decision making, which we want our our leaders to, to have, but how do you get that? You actually get that through what I call back casting and forecasting, and back casting is about reflection. Memory, pausing, metacognition.

Why do we think the way we think about this problem on our team forecasting is about imagination, curiosity. Um, it's about inspiration. Both that casting and forecaster require us to pause and, and that's essential because that actually will sharpen our cognitive, [00:19:00] rational thought. Thought processes and strategic decision making.

And then rest is, I'm not advocating for necessarily about every company should have a nap room in the building. That's not what I'm saying, although that's your work culture. Cool. I'm, I'm really talking about. Thinking about rest, which is different from sleep. Sleep is incorporated in rest. Thinking about micro breaks, scaling it out to what might a sabbatical look like?

So among the people I interviewed, I interviewed people in the tech industry where companies, uh, grant sabbatical, every five years I interview people at nonprofit organizations, not just higher education, where we're accustomed hearing, oh, faculty, they, they get to have. Sabbaticals. No. But nonprofit organizations where they incentivize and, and, and really encourage people to take a sabbatical and encourage is a really an operative word.

They wanna talk about sabbatical because it could be part of the policy. But if it's not [00:20:00] modeled by leaders, people don't take the sabbatical. They fear that they'll go to a slap on the wrist if they do take the sabbatical. So movement, thought and rest is about movement. Hygiene, back casting and forecasting.

Intermittent rest that can be done within one day as well as throughout a year. And I was really interested in what those, what that human-centered operating system looks like for the individual, the team, and the organization. So. And as you know, I really try to practice what I preach in terms of my Wonder Rigor methodology, and so there's a lot of provocation that I seed in the book, but I also offer very practical, tactical ways the rigor for people to begin to exercise these ideas.

So every chapter has reflection questions and exercises for the team, for the organization. For the individual to start to experiment with. But that's the [00:21:00] model. And it's interesting, we've had books that only talk about the role of movement in exercise in an organization in our workday, or only talk about the value of rest, or only talk about the ways we're, we're think we're thinking and our different thought processes.

But to really integrate the three was my goal here.

Anne Green: I noticed that I was thinking of it as the power of three in a way, and the interplay. Um, you know, I know movement's always been important to you, being a dancer back in the day and still today. Dancing, swimming, I know is something you're very committed to.

Open water swimming, which is intense. And I have gotten back into movement. Um, you know, I love yoga. I'm doing strength training, you know. Gyms like Orange Theory and finding that strength again, you know, being in my mid fifties and kind of meeting myself again at this time of life. Right. Which is a very common thing for women of this age.

And one thing I noticed I was reflecting on in the book, I mean, there's so many places I can go from this, but I'll, I'll keep it to one of the questions I'd sent to you [00:22:00] in reflecting on myself over recent years. And just being on my own journey of how can I be the best person and the best leader, because those to me are very connected, right?

Living my values. How do I wanna show up? I've really noticed in my brain activity, if you examine your thoughts and are mindful, my mind has coded various activities, either productive or non-productive. There's a whole host of emotions about myself and my worth or my value, and whether I have a good day or I have earned rest or fun that are deeply tied to whether I have been productive.

Now I'm lucky because certain things like exercise are coded as productive. Cooking. My brain is like, check, check. You're in the green checkbox, not the red side, but I'm trying to decouple this and really interrogate it. Because I don't think that kind of thinking, if you're running on autopilot and you're not interrogating those thought, I don't think they're helpful personally or professionally.

So does this resonate with you in the research you did [00:23:00] and what you reflected on these internal scripts that run tied to these ideas about productivity?

Natalie Nixon: Yeah. It's so interesting. Whenever I have conversations about mood think breast, we inevitably seem to hone in on the rest component. And I think, and I and I, when I think about.

The, the dimension of this operating system that I have to be more intentional about it. For me, it's definitely the rest piece. And what I would say is the shift that and the reframe that I want people to get is that rest is not optional. Rest is not reward, rest. Is integral to doing our best work. Rest is actually risk.

Mitigation rest is actually going to build operational resilience. And we know, uh, we have all sorts of, of case [00:24:00] studies and case stories when we go, go, go, go, go as individuals, as teens, as are just, we miss things, right? We, um, don't do our best thinking. We don't ask the best questions. Um, you know, the Navy Seals famously have ascribed to slow is smooth and smooth is fast, right?

It builds in consistency. So what I want people to understand is, first of all, I love that you called out that self-judgment. We all, I am definitely have to catch myself on and, and to build in a lot more compassion and that com, that that compassion mindset in my view is going to distinguish the best organizations in the future of work, the future of work.

We'll be distinguished by companies that have leadership to practice what I call inside out work [00:25:00] versus just like this outward pushing focus work. The leaders that understand that stories are data too, that yes, the quant. Spreadsheets. The metadata, the, the, all of all the big data is significant. It shows us patterns.

The qualitative dimension of work is going to be increasingly important in a world where basic tasks are increasingly going to be taken over by AI and such. So, so that qualitative dimension of self-compassion, um, will, will be, um. Will be best reflected in, in premier organizations by leaders who show compassion, who show curiosity, who show dimensions of, of frankly transparency and vulnerability, who show that self reflexivity about asking a question such as, you know, that competitor that, that we kind of said we would, we, you know, never wanna.

[00:26:00] We're, we're seeing them as the enemy or, or we, we don't want to do work with them. I started thinking differently about this because something that happened with my, with my kids' soccer team this weekend or something, I read in an article, I wonder. If we might revisit that. Does anyone else think that we might find a way to explore co-opetition instead of competition, but that self reflexivity is an example of that inside out work and it begin.

That's an example of thought, right? That's an example of the type of thinking that I'm talking about. Or we pause, we slow down. Just zoom out. In order to see the bigger picture. Um, so what I really, I really want, you know, people to take away is that the, these are, these are not principles that are additive that are one more thing to do, but they are really, if we play our cards right, and if you read the book and it's.

Tips and techniques, uh, are [00:27:00] totally feasible, um, to really attract and retain the best talent and to have an a plus organization.

Anne Green: Now, you know, there's so many connections I'm making. I always say to my people, our business is a tapestry. 'cause there's so many interwoven threads. And to see it more as a tapestry than all these siloed things that are happening.

Like this is happening here, new business is happening here. But a couple of things we've talked about as well is what is a growth mindset versus a fixed mindset? I'll obviously. Carol Dweck and many others have worked on that. But understanding that there's ways of thinking and seeing and being mindful of interrogating, like, how am I thinking?

Which also relates to things like implicit bias, which we try to understand in the context of say, diversity and equity and belonging. You know, there's so many of these things about stepping back and saying. What is the thought processes that are like, what's, what are the files that are running here and what are they saying to me?

But I, I like the idea too. It requires a bit of emotional intelligence. 'cause this goes right back to, you said it [00:28:00] best in the future, there will be many tasks that we measured as output that will not be necessary for humans to do, but there will be so much more in terms of context and meaning, creation and interpretation and connection and humanity that.

Are critical. And that actually relates to another quote in the book that I vigorously underlined, which is, you said We aren't, and I could not co-sign on this more, we aren't experiencing a tech revolution. We're experiencing a human revolution. So I'd love you to unpack that for me because I am way on that train too, and I'm wondering if some of our thoughts about it are similar.

Natalie Nixon: The reason why I say that we're not in the midst of a tech revolution. We're in the midst of a human revolution is just number one. I I, it's the. The root of that is just my total frustration with our tech crush. I call it our tech and saturated tech crush, where we forgive the, at the end of the day, the technology is a tool.

So, and what is the so what behind that tool? The, the, the, so [00:29:00] what behind the technology and the best of circumstances is that it, it gives us time for spaciousness because we can get the answers so much more quickly. It actually is now. Affording us an opportunity to have that self-awareness, that self-compassion, that self-care.

It affords us the time as leaders to think more critically and more intentionally about the ways that we are leading. It actually opens up opportunities for us to build our creative capacity as organizations, and that really is the so what behind this move? Think rest humans in an operating system. The reason why?

Working in this way is so important is because it begins to seed a capacity for creativity. That means we will be able to consistently innovate and deliver more purpose-driven business results. That's, that's the real reason. The the end, [00:30:00] the the move thing. Rest is a means to, to an end. And that end is building creative capacity, which, you know, I'm really passionate about.

And if we think about some of the most striking. FinTech and EdTech frauds that we have lived through a society recently. You know, whether it's Sam Bateman free or if it's Elizabeth Holmes or if it's, I'm, I'm, I'm lapsing on the name of, there was an EdTech scandal. Um, yeah, where the person, um, fraudulently said that their, that their mailing list, their data list was, was much larger than it was.

In all of those circumstances, if we zoom out, the challenge was number one, there was some FOMO going on. We've gotta, we've gotta reach the finish line first. And number two, no one was pausing to ask a different question to start to critically, uh, reflect on what was being presented to them. And this is just one, these are just [00:31:00] three examples of some really expensive.

Mistakes and moral and ethical dilemmas that begin to reveal themselves when we don't practice a different model of leadership. But, um, that, that, that, that, that human revolution is the opportunity, is an opportunity to behave differently. It's an opportunity to interact differently because of the technology.

So. So shifting, again, reframing and, and thinking about what does all this technology mean for me as a person, as a human. Now, I, I am not a hundred percent rosy colored glasses about the tech. I'm well aware about the ethical challenge of the technology, the sustainability challenges of the technology, the water usage of the technology.

Um. And in the meantime, what are the ways that we can make sure we recenter [00:32:00] humans in this conversation? That's what what I think is very important to do.

Anne Green: I, I couldn't agree more. And it's funny to add to your list of things. I, I find it funny that we're all walking around now having to ask ourselves, will the advent of artificial general intelligence be like an extinction event for our species?

That's why it's so much pressure on us. I think as workers and as people, such a seismic change where it's all on the table. There's like the day to day, well, I have a job, but there's also this like existential thing that you can't just discount. I, I really invite my team and everyone I encounter, you know, I was just at our shared alma mater, um, mentoring sophomores as happens every year, which is an amazing program, but I was really encouraging them to build their AI narrative and their thoughts about it and their hands on and hold both possibilities of ones.

But I said to 'em, look, you know, you have to think of the a hundred thousand foot as well as ground level too, about this. One of the transitions that I wanna make and, [00:33:00] and ask you about this 'cause it's very practical for me. So it's, you know, this is my, my way of getting your advice, Natalie, is that in my field, in the agency world, and there's many kinds of agencies and marketing communications, um, this question of inputs, outputs, impact in my field, as you well know as being a professional services person too.

We measure productivity have tended to, based on a very 20th century model, the billable hour, an hour of a human's time. Therefore, the calculation of our scope of work, our budgets, and ultimately somehow our successes by that cost of human per hour rubric and many forces like AI is one of them, is intensifying a discussion we've been having for a long time, myself and leaders across many firms and consulting as well about.

What is the impact? Can we shift to that? What is the impact? What is the purpose of this project and the value of it, value-based pricing, et cetera, versus just billable time. There's a lot of prognostication that, oh, it's all gonna go to that. It has [00:34:00] to change to that, et cetera. But it's been very hard to make that change because the way the corporate sector's set up and many of our clients are, and procurement and other structures.

Are very, very much set up or and delineated around that kind of conversation around the billable hour and those kind of input output. So what, what do you think about that tension between input, output, impact, and what are you trying to start to advance in the book on this conversation?

Natalie Nixon: Well, the tension that you've just outlined is really pointing out.

The opportunity for systems change, which is, is really painful too, right? Like my, my husband John is an attorney that the entire revenue model for law firms is based on billable hours. And we have this conversation all the time. The shift to value-based pricing means a shift in the sorts of questions that you ask.

So one really good question to start to ask of yourselves and of your clients [00:35:00] is what is at stake? If the work, the impact of our work does not happen. And when you begin to deline delineate what is at stake, um, unintended consequences, the additional costs, if this doesn't happen, you begin to really clearly see the value of the work, which.

Is exceptional, right? It's exceptional because of, of sunk costs, of missed opportunities of, of new sorts of, of awareness and, and new future scenarios that you can point to to start driving your business, which open up new revenue streams. So, so a lot of it is requiring us to ask very different sorts of questions, which is just a very different muscle to use.

So. The value conversation and it's linked to the move, think, rest operating system. The, the connection that I see there is around the value that we're putting on our time, the value that we're putting on the sorts of people that we have around the [00:36:00] table, that there are diverse experiences and perspectives that make sure that we are actually asking different sorts of questions that lead to a different.

Output that lead to a different impact, that lead to different value. Um, the other piece about value is that value allows us to be much more expansive in the way we think about the outcome. Value is allowing us to challenge our assumptions when we, when we say that this work. Equals X, we are assuming that we know exactly what the apple would be and, and that's very comforting, right?

We want to be able to say that in a quantifiable way. I can guarantee X, which in a lot of cases we still can do value though also is is an and a yes and we're also adds to the conversation the additional. [00:37:00] Impact the additional consequences, the additional attributes that can come from the work. And I think that the move, think rest, human-centered operating system is inherently much more values based because it's, it begins to expand the way we think of the human input into, into the work.

Anne Green: I like that suggestion of we have to stop and reframe the question of what is this work for? What are the implications? If it doesn't get done, what is the benefit of saying having an outside party? You know, it's the work we have to now interrogate going forward. What can AI do or platforms, what could do humans uniquely have to do?

So I, I think that's helpful to me in thinking about. How we keep reframing this because we're in the thick of this and we're gonna keep having this conversation, and I do think it's gonna be a both end. I don't think every entity that we work with will suddenly switch to this model. I think the billable hour is quite hard to say goodbye to on many [00:38:00] levels, but if we can start to evolve and sort of shine a light on the path to get there, I think that's gonna be very helpful for our industry.

Natalie Nixon: Billable hours is hard to say goodbye to. 'cause there's an entire system

Anne Green: Yes.

Natalie Nixon: Dependent on it, right? Yes. So we can't get rid of the entire system overnight and maybe we shouldn't. So what are prototypes that you can begin to launch? What is one particular. Client engagement or initiative where you could test out this very different pricing model.

So prototypes are a beautiful thing. They, they, they simultaneously excite. Teams and terrify them. Because prototypes mean that it, you're experimenting. It means that the answer could be, wow, that was a total fail. But what did you learn? You know, I'm from Philly, the home of the Philadelphia Eagles, and our, our quarterback, Jalen Hurt Hurts.

Like, loves to say, there's only winning and learning. There's, he doesn't like that. Paradigm win, fail, win, lose. It's winning and [00:39:00] learning, right? So that's what the prototype, what a prototyping culture begins to acclimate you towards. So think about what is one. Small, low stakes way that we can start to experiment with this.

A very different pricing model. What do we learn from it? What's the feedback? Uh, what's what then can we build on that? And that to me is the way to begin to, um. Address systems change, and we all know that in a system you change one element and there's a cascading effect. So it's not about being totally disruptive.

That's not practical. It doesn't really, that's not feasible. It does, it doesn't really make sense, but, but if you think about what's a prototype, what's the, and, and when I say prototype, sometimes when I work with clients, they go to what I call the Audi version. Before you get to the Audi version, there's a tricycle version, there's a motorcycle version, [00:40:00] let's say Scooter, then there's the Audi, right?

The sedan. Uh, but what's the duct tape? Scra scribble doodle tricycle version of this that you can begin to try. And what do you learn? And then what's the feedback loop that you build on your team with your organization to share out so that there is a lot of input? Because when people feel part of the problem solving process, there are more likely to be vested in the change.

Anne Green: Absolutely, because I have so much family in Philly. And for you, I will say, go birds, that since you evoke the Eagles. I love the prototype piece though. There's actually a client that's very creative that we're working with in a, you know, a, a new model that we talked to 'em about very much what you're saying, kind of saying mixture of human and, um, supported by ai, sped by it, and quality control and saying this may be a more productive way to go forward for both you and us.

Win-win. And there's. You know, actually discount involved in it, but [00:41:00] there's still a sense of the profitability that'll come on our side. So we're in that moment of experimentation. And I think I was talking another episode of this podcast that's gonna come out before yours, and mine does. I interviewed somebody who's a real expert in AI and he, we were talking about how terrible, everyone says upskilling, but no one in our society is committed to doing it.

And he said a lot of it is not to him upskilling, it's updo. Like, just like do the do, get committed, get hands on. And I think some of this requires that bravery to prototype experiment get out of your head space. You know, for me, I, I mentioned earlier, I haven't met a. For of times when I feel I have to keep, it's like my brain is a train and it has to stay on the rails, keep moving forward, and you have to produce, produce, produce.

But there's another metaphor. That's my one metaphor. And, and sometimes you need to be highly controlled. Uh, there's another metaphor. I've always thought about, which is when I allow myself some space, I imagine the brain is like the stone skipping [00:42:00] across the pond. And if you allow your thoughts to, it's like the stone.

Skip, skip, skip. And what I find is that my thoughts will follow a path and I don't even know where they're going. And I'll have to trace the stone, skip. Like how did I get to that thought? Because I'm letting the brain be a little bit free. And I find metaphorically thinking like that helps me to feel where is that expansiveness?

'cause as a CEO, like I have to. Do a lot of do, but I also need time to set back and say, where are we going? Why? What can I offer to our team to make it legible? What, what is the stories or the metaphor? What's our theme for this year? What's the strategy? And I do feel that that sense of sort of taking the shackles off your mind and your body to move and then also to rest.

I think that's why this has resonated so much with me. Does that, does any of those metaphors resonate with you, Natalie?

Natalie Nixon: I think, I love your metaphor of the, the, the skipping a stone through water. I'll give you another [00:43:00] water metaphor. I think it's actually probably much more germane than the train metaphor for the reality of how we work.

I, the reason why metaphors are so powerful is 'cause we are highly visual creatures and we have that. Visual in mind. It helps us to stay on track. It helps us to, uh, anchor ourselves into the why and what you just described. You are allowing yourself as a leader to pause and to self-reflect, to question, you know.

The question, everything from, you know, why do we choose to meet this way? I always go back to the, the OG of organizational artifacts, which is the meeting, the meet. The way we meet is a wonderful place to start. To think through this. Move, think, rest operat system. Think through, uh, how, why don't we, do we have to do a zoom?

Can we walk and talk in person? Can we, can we use the old school, uh, phone and, and do a more oral, oral way of, of, [00:44:00] of working and meeting. But I, the, the, the, the other metaphor that I'd like to seed and I would like to recommend a book that maybe your organization, I hope your organization is interested in.

Reading moves thing rest, but I'm gonna give another book that's been incredibly impactful to me. The other metaphor I think is much more germane to how we lead and how we work is to think about sailing. Now, I don't know how to sail. I'm infatuated with sailing. I love Christopher Cross's. Good old yacht rock song sail.

I, I I. But, but the, the, from what I understand about sailing, you must, there are times where you can just coast, but there are other times where you gotta lean into the wind. There are other times when you have to attack the sail in different ways so that it can catch the wind. It's so rich of metaphor, and I highly recommend.

That you and your leadership team, your entire organization read a great book called, first You Have to Row a Little Boat, [00:45:00] man, I've, I came across this book in like, remember Borders, bookstores. It was either a Borders or a Barnes and Noble in the late 1990s. I was in my late twenties. It was a little, it's a little book.

It's probably only like five by seven in dimension, maybe a little larger than that. Paperback probably was in hardback when I first got it and I devoured the book number one 'cause I always hoped to sail. Still not too late for that, but I, I'm more open water swimming right now. But I loved the rich metaphor for life and how you first have to row a boat before you graduate to as this, I'm sorry, I'm forgetting the author's name, but, um, to, to eventually sail.

But I high, I, I think it's a wonderful. Leadership book. I think it's, um, a wonderful book for right now, um, to understand how to. Here's the, the author is Richard Bode, BODE. Um, but I, I think [00:46:00] sailing and, and using this metaphor of knowing when you have to lean in, when you have to go against waiting, pausing, being cognizant of the environment, man, it's, it's so, such a helpful way to think about teaming, to think about leadership, to think about.

Goal setting to think about movement, thought and rest. Um, so I really, I really recommend that book and that metaphor,

Anne Green: you know, it means so much to me. You said that my father was a sailor. I grew up sailing and years ago, my husband's a musician, which, you know, and we did a cover of Christopher Cross Song Sailing as a present for my father before he died years ago.

And, um, it's just such a precious thing to me, but. The other thing with sailing or being on the water in general is that it reminds you there's things larger of yourself, which is the forces of nature. And we are all being buffeted by the wind right now. Geopolitical [00:47:00] social change. Um. As a leader, I'm spending a lot of time interrogating my own values because I don't like to create hysteria or upset, but I also don't love silence and stuff that I don't feel comfortable with.

And so that idea of monitoring the winds, knowing there's certain times where there's a storm and you gotta pull that sail down and you gotta get to a safe port and you just gotta care for your own people. I mean, there's a million things we could talk about that. So you really speak to my heart when, when you share that, Natalie, I love that.

Um. We talked about the fact that, you know, as we wind down, I, I could just talk to you forever about this stuff and I just love talking to you in general. Um, you end each chapter with a section you call seeds to cultivate. And you noted earlier, you asked tangible questions and exercises that speak to an individual.

It speaks to a team and it speak to the whole organization. And I think that's really material because. People can be good at one thing and not another. Like, you're great at an individual performer, but you're kind of poor leading a team, or you're [00:48:00] wonderful in the team environment, but you're not paying enough attention to the individuals or there's the organization.

And how does it scale? What do you feel about the interplay between those three dimensions and, and what, what do you hope that people do with those seeds to cultivate at the end of each chapter?

Natalie Nixon: I think the interplay is essential and to tole between me as an individual awareness of how I work as a team, how I'm part of the larger ecosystem is a dance.

And it takes practice to get better at that because we all, each of us have a natural inclination of where we feel more comfortable or where we, it's effortless, right At the same time. When we are part of an ecosystem, we're part of a larger organization, we have to build the muscle for each of those concentric circles of.

As an individual, a team, and the organization. And what I hope people will do with the reflection questions, with, with the exercises is, is to use them, is to start a book club, to use them, even if you use it [00:49:00] as a prompt for five minutes at the start of a meeting for a short conversation. I want people to experi.

With this very different way of working that where the pushback can be, man. Are you saying that my people should procrastinate? Are you saying that we should all be pausing? I'm not saying that. I'm actually saying that if you, that, you know, getting back to the, to the reframe question, what's at risk if you don't?

This is risk mitigation. This is a way to set boundaries actually. It's actually a way to make sure that instead of saying work or work, work, work, work, work, which is boundaryless, you are actually integrating boundaries to ensure that your people feel seen and heard, and that they actually do their best work so that they actually have the ability to be creative.

Because I'm a creativity strategist, I, I cannot leave our conversation about dropping a few statistical nuggets that are just a bit [00:50:00] alarming and, and also inspiring. But, you know, the World Economic Forum and their 2023 future job skills report designated creativity, they predicted the creativity would be the number two job skill by 2027 and a year from now.

The first job skill they said was critical thinking. Another report, I think by Market Splash. Said that 72%, maybe I think, or eight 70 to 80% of business leaders believe that creativity is essential for market competitiveness. So we had these two, this great research and these, and this really storied organization saying creativity was really essential for market competitiveness, for leadership.

At the same time. Other research shows that 70% of employees feel that they have no time at all during the year, maybe two times during the year, to exercise their creativity, to demonstrate their creativity, whether they work in a law [00:51:00] firm, a meat packing factory, or in education, right? So there's this gap analysis between saying, yes, creativity is essential at the same time as people not.

Experiencing that they're given the space and time to practice that creativity. The move, think, rest operating system is one on-ramp to help people to do that. It's one way to begin to shift to a leadership model and an organizational culture that. Hopefully, we'll, we'll, we'll position you to become the employer of choice, the workplace of choice, because not only are you generating great product in whatever sector you're in, but you also are a great place to work, and you also allow the con, you are, see, you're designing the conditions for people's best work.

Anne Green: I love that. And I think the idea of the on-ramp, how do we have an on-ramp to create more [00:52:00] space for ourselves for all of these things? And, um, we've kind of gotten in the last 20, 30 years just very much in a box of email, email notification, notification work work and creating that space I think is gonna be really helpful for us, especially, and very apropos and timely given the technology shifts that are happening.

But Natalie is always, it's a delight to see you, a delight to talk to you. For everyone listening, mo think Rest Her new book and Checkout Creativity Leap, I think you're gonna be doing a new edition of that soon. So, um, you know, I can't encourage folks to enough to reach out to you. Thank you for your time.

Natalie Nixon: Thank you for having me, Ann. Always a pleasure.