Building Brand Gravity Podcast

00:00:00:11 - 00:00:24:22
Speaker 2
Hi and welcome to the latest edition of Building Brand Gravity. I'm Steve Hosie, principal and chief growth officer of Gans and your host of Building Brand Gravity. With me today are two renowned communications experts. I want to first, welcome back to the show, Rob Jaco, LEC managing director of the Harris Poll. Rob is a world renowned expert on reputation, brand and insights, and he's a leader at the iconic Harris boy.

00:00:24:22 - 00:00:26:18
Speaker 2
Rob, welcome back to the show.

00:00:26:20 - 00:00:28:21
Speaker 3
Thanks for having me, Steve. Glad to be here.

00:00:29:02 - 00:00:57:10
Speaker 2
We're also joined by Elliot Mizrahi. He's VP of strategy and content for page. In that role, Elliot works with the world's top Cos agency executives, academics and other leaders supporting the C-suite. He's actively gleaning their insights, and he's using that to create compelling thought leadership content that helps today's chief communication officers navigate an ever more complex world. Elliot, welcome to building Brand Gravity.

00:00:57:12 - 00:00:58:16
Speaker 4
Thank you. Steve.

00:00:58:18 - 00:01:27:17
Speaker 2
So hey, let's get let's get started. It's going to be a great discussion today. And it's not going to be a light discussion. You know, when you think about what we're facing the world right now, the context around and the expectations of business is anything but stable. You got seismic forces of change. You got mass disruption. You got geopolitical unrest, economic headwinds, disinformation, polarization, and the need for personalization are the norm today, right.

00:01:27:19 - 00:01:54:05
Speaker 2
Just a couple small things for us to deal with. You know, and Rob can bring that into greater light in terms of what he's what they're seeing at the Harris poll. And from where Elliot sits in this environment. Today's chief communication officers are being asked to not just lead the communications function, but to help their companies, their markets and even society manage some kind of positive transformation in the face of these disruptive forces.

00:01:54:07 - 00:02:16:20
Speaker 2
So in today's podcast, we're going to explore what's on the mind of key and what the research tells us. We're going to talk about two big issues that Chief Communication officers cannot afford to ignore, and how this moment in time is going to forever change the role of the CTO. And all of this is going to be discussed within the context of how it could impact a brands gravity.

00:02:16:22 - 00:02:26:08
Speaker 2
So Elliot Page recently polled 38 member CEOs in North America, Europe and the Middle East to see what's on their mind. What did you find out?

00:02:26:13 - 00:02:44:09
Speaker 4
Well, a little bit of the history before I get to the findings, Steve. So we're a membership association for chief communication officers. And one of the things that we have been trying to do lately is have more of a voice and more of a presence in, in business conversations. And we, for the last couple of years have had a presence at Davos.

00:02:44:11 - 00:03:02:05
Speaker 4
And to prepare for that, one of the things that we wanted to do was reach out to members and get a sense for what was on their mind. I often like to think about the Co as the organizational antenna. You know, we have sight lines and views into what's happening around the organization, around the world. With stakeholders.

00:03:02:07 - 00:03:20:14
Speaker 4
And this let's close the early detectors of risk. And so, we did two things in our research. We spoke to Coes, which I'll talk about. And we also worked with Rob to speak with the public and understand what their expectations are around, issue management. And Rob will share a little bit of those findings in a moment.

00:03:20:16 - 00:03:40:16
Speaker 4
What we found when we asked, what are the things that you're thinking about? What are the risks that you see coming up in the year to come? 45% said that it was geopolitics and elections. And I don't know if you know this, about half the planet is going to be going to the polls, in democratic elections this year.

00:03:40:21 - 00:04:05:18
Speaker 4
It is an enormously consequential year for Democratic politics. And it's happening at a time that there is enormous polarization, polarization and divisiveness. And in fact, 29% of clubs said that that's their second greatest risk. The polarization, divisiveness, the eroding societal fabric. And so when I think about these two things together, I'm thinking, you see, CEOs, their job is in many ways to protect the social license to operate.

00:04:05:20 - 00:04:32:04
Speaker 4
And when you are dealing with a world that is fragmented and decisive and where constructive dialog is breaking down, it becomes more challenging to do that, to find those forms of common ground. We look at blowback from ESG and Di, things that many would agree are forms of responsible business management. But they become wrapped up in sort of political language and rhetoric and its challenge, Co's and their ability to lead their enterprises on those sorts of issues.

00:04:32:06 - 00:04:39:22
Speaker 2
So, Elliot, quick question off that. Are they are they optimistic or are they pessimistic as they think about the current situation?

00:04:40:00 - 00:05:04:15
Speaker 4
We didn't ask. So your guess would be as good as mine. But but my experience with CSOs honestly, is that considering the challenges they face day to day, they are a strangely optimistic bunch. And so I think there's a lot of opportunity that sits within these challenges and a lot of opportunity that lends itself to this unique skill set of the CCL to foster constructive dialog and find common ground.

00:05:04:17 - 00:05:22:17
Speaker 4
And I think just a lot of these two quick points, 14% felt that misinformation and disinformation were also huge risks this year. And all of that stuff goes to the heart of this earning and building and maintaining trust. On the positive side, we asked, what are the opportunities that you see for the function of coming up in the coming year?

00:05:22:19 - 00:05:56:04
Speaker 4
32% said that it was about evolution to the function itself. More personalization, more speed, more scale, a greater ability to demonstrate real, tangible value. 26% talked about AI, which anyone would agree is probably a mixed bag, but tremendous opportunity to deepen the relationships that we have with stakeholders and have a greater impact. And so I think to your point, Steve, even though these are enormous societal challenges, CSOs have greater opportunities than ever before to be positive, influential forces in their organizations and outside as well.

00:05:56:06 - 00:06:18:16
Speaker 2
And what are you seeing as you talk to them about just how this skill sets expanding? I mean, everything you covered geopolitics, AI, changing role, dealing with elections, all of these things to try and shepherd, the brands. I mean, how are they how are they keeping up with this? How are they thinking about their teams in that environment?

00:06:18:18 - 00:06:44:02
Speaker 4
Well, I would like to think that one of the ways that we do it is by participating in page events and consuming our content. But the bottom line is this I think the expectation of the CRO to have the broadest purview possible is, is really significant today. And I think that that business acumen, that understanding of world events and how they affect the enterprise, I think that's probably the most important thing that CSOs are focusing on.

00:06:44:04 - 00:06:51:23
Speaker 4
They have a really rich understanding of the context and an ability to provide valuable strategic advice.

00:06:52:01 - 00:07:14:07
Speaker 2
That's interesting. And and Rob, I know you you guys worked with him, as he said on kind of the qualitative part, part of this. But the Harris Poll also recently worked with page to field a global public opinion survey, really asking about the confidence in business. You garnered responses from more than 11,000 individuals across ten markets. What did you find out?

00:07:14:09 - 00:07:28:00
Speaker 3
Thanks, Steve. I really enjoyed, Elliot's set up. And I think the your question, Steve, about the CCF psyche. I can't hold back from from kind of jumping in, I think, you know, I, I think Elliot would agree like that a lot.

00:07:28:00 - 00:07:29:16
Speaker 4
Of course, I think the.

00:07:29:21 - 00:07:43:15
Speaker 3
Tolerance or maybe appetite for kind of complexity and maybe borderline pain is, is an impressive trait. I would I would say that because, people know what they're getting in for and they keep coming back more for more of it.

00:07:43:17 - 00:07:45:05
Speaker 4
It's a survival trait.

00:07:45:07 - 00:07:59:10
Speaker 3
But it's not just survival rate. I mean, I think a lot of people, there's a lot of people that have the opportunity to deal with it are in senior communications, roles. I mean, they could be doing a lot of different things across the business, right? And in many cases, they've opted and really selected to be running communication.

00:07:59:10 - 00:08:24:19
Speaker 3
So again, I think it's it's very certain persona that does it. And really kind of such an invaluable skill to the points that both you're making and, and really what a lot of the research that I'll talk about, indicates it's, you know, being that antenna and being that guidepost for, for, for how things are changing is, it's just so mission critical because companies today have larger blind spots and more quickly emerging blind spots than they've ever had before.

00:08:24:21 - 00:08:46:04
Speaker 3
So the the research that we did, with page and again, I will give Elliot kudos. Here he was, he was certainly kind of the instigator and and brainchild behind getting this. We've you know he he prompted this along to to really kind of sprint towards the end of last year. And it was really a brain trust of Elliot, the page team and as well as a number of page members that contributed to to the survey.

00:08:46:06 - 00:09:10:16
Speaker 3
So it covers ten global markets, kind of across the board from, from North America to Latin America to, to across Europe and Asia. A little lighter this round on, on the Middle East and Africa that we'll, we'll address that in a future with, but I think a really interesting set of insights when you're, when you're talking to over 11,000, members of the, of the global public.

00:09:10:22 - 00:09:30:02
Speaker 3
Right. And really starting to get your head around, you know, what are the issues that that matter most? And the two core questions that we focused in are and our first, what are the issues that the public expects business to, to make an impact on, which are most important? And the second one is around how confident are they that business actually can deliver positive value.

00:09:30:04 - 00:09:58:15
Speaker 3
Right. So your, and it plays very, very, well with some of those the thematics that Elliot alluded to. First I'll start with some of just, maybe a couple kind of core insights around key issues. But the, you know, the politicization and polarization is, is such an apparent trend in the, in the research. I'll talk maybe a little bit about the US, where it's maybe the, the point and the gap is particularly wide, but it's very noteworthy that you're seeing these gaps across the board.

00:09:58:17 - 00:10:14:12
Speaker 3
Right. So as you, as you're tracking some of these elections, whether they're, you know, more at the national level or more at the regional level or more at the municipal level, like there's countries like the UK where you've had certainly some, some, what people would say, some startling results in terms of people who are, who are now in Parliament.

00:10:14:14 - 00:10:45:23
Speaker 3
Right. You've I think you've had some similar trends across a number of European markets. The back to the overall data. Right. So the as you're looking at, you know, this whole idea of confidence and and importance of issues, first and foremost, the, the issues that we picked are highly salient to, to the public. And again, I put a lot of this back to, to the brain trust that helped support, over 80% of the, of the global public, on average said the 15 issues that we dug into, were highly important for, for business to, to work on.

00:10:46:03 - 00:11:04:21
Speaker 3
So all the issues within this study, some of them might be hire, some might be lower, are all very salient when it comes to to to the public. The, the, the current reality is that the, the gap between kind of importance, which call that around 80 as the global average, versus, versus confidence is, is pretty substantial.

00:11:04:21 - 00:11:18:20
Speaker 3
It's about 26 points or you're at 54, 55 in terms of looking at the level of confidence. So many issues of high importance, confidence substantially lower. So reinforcing this whole idea of, of, of a confidence gap.

00:11:19:00 - 00:11:31:04
Speaker 2
And, and and Rob just to, to, to reinforce for our listeners importance is what the audience viewed of the ranking of the issue in confidence was their confidence and how business would address that. Yeah.

00:11:31:04 - 00:11:54:05
Speaker 3
I mean, it's it's, you know, pretty pretty literally. It's, you know, when you look at each one of these issues such as, you know, economic stability and growth or income inequality or gender equality or polarization in society, to what degree would you say it's important for business to make a positive impact on it? And then secondarily, how confident are you that that business can make a positive impact on it?

00:11:54:07 - 00:12:06:20
Speaker 3
Okay, so very business centric, not just personally. Are these issues in the world important to you? But we very much brought that direct business lens on it, right. Is this something that you business should be addressing and do you believe that business can address it or not?

00:12:06:21 - 00:12:07:20
Speaker 2
Great. Thank you.

00:12:07:22 - 00:12:28:11
Speaker 3
So globally, what's what's what's noteworthy is that there there are two issues there that really stood out as kind of the, the bedrocks, for engagement. And the reason I say that is that both of these issues stood out as being both the two most important, as well as amongst the highest on confidence. Right? Those two issues are economic stability and growth.

00:12:28:16 - 00:12:56:01
Speaker 3
Right. So the degree to which you can have a positive impact on the economy and enable growth. And the second one is job creation and workforce skills development. Right? So very much around the workforce accelerating job creation, but also really looking at your workforce and the degree to which you can improve its skills. Looking forward. Both of those were, very close to 90% of the public saying very important in terms of the global public across these ten markets.

00:12:56:03 - 00:13:16:21
Speaker 3
And, there you had the confidence numbers in the low to mid 60s, right? So substantially higher than the than the average and really kind of two standout items. So those are and what was particularly noteworthy is those two issues across every market and across every key kind of demographic, but very consistently stay as the bedrock, if you will.

00:13:17:01 - 00:13:36:07
Speaker 2
That's fascinating. Giving, you know, all the changes within geographies. And, you know, Elliot was talking about all of the elections and, you know, the polarization of liberal, conservative, young, old, urban, rural, those those are definitely interesting findings that that I want to want to come back to. And and, Elliot, I want to turn to you for a little bit.

00:13:36:07 - 00:14:05:10
Speaker 2
I mean, you know, Rob is sitting there saying, hey, universally around the globe, there's these two issues, actually, there's 15 issues that that ranked pretty high, but there were two that were up near 90%. The economic stability and growth, job creation and workforce skills. So two part questions for you. And then as we get later in the podcast, what we'll come back here first, given everything Rob just covered in terms of the findings from the CEOs you talked to, how do they reconcile it all?

00:14:05:12 - 00:14:23:17
Speaker 2
And second, with so much of the day to day focus in the news, at least here in the US and a lot of Western Europe on what divides us. How can see CEOs help their companies and their key publics get aligned around their brand's core values and business outcomes in this environment?

00:14:23:19 - 00:14:51:12
Speaker 4
Yeah, Steve, on your first question, how do they do it? It is not easy. You know, one of the things that we've been tracking really closely since the beginning of 2020 is as as Covid came about, we started getting members together, to talk about what they were going through and share knowledge with each other. And it just seems like the expectations and the issues that they're dealing with, and trying to manage have grown, beyond their budgets and themes.

00:14:51:12 - 00:15:24:07
Speaker 4
And so they're spread really thin. Their remits are expanding. We find kids whose responsibilities have, come to include, brand and marketing, ESG, sustainability, in some cases, human resources culture. And so what we see is a real evolution of the nature of the function. And to be honest, Steve, I think, like, you know, any growing pains, it's been challenging for kids to, to keep up with all of these issues.

00:15:24:09 - 00:15:49:01
Speaker 4
But but what I will say, just on the kind of divisiveness, one of the things that page has said for for many, many years is when you think about the the basis of the co role, it is rooted in this idea of corporate character that every organization has character, you know, a set of values and beliefs, a unique and differentiated identity that govern everything that it is and does and says.

00:15:49:03 - 00:16:16:13
Speaker 4
And the Co's role is to define what that character is and to help align the organization around it. And sometimes that's an ongoing process of refinement when there's a really strong sense of what that is. In other cases, that could mean that there's an existential reality around the company that requires what our friend John O'Hara at Yale recently described as re founding moments, moments where you need to step back and say, this company needs to be something entirely different.

00:16:16:14 - 00:16:36:07
Speaker 4
And so building a shared belief around what is happening around the company and what needs to happen in order to move it forward is really essential. We we did a an exact magic application program with Yale based on their approach to stakeholder capitalism and and pages research on the topic. And one of the things that we talked about was assessing materiality.

00:16:36:07 - 00:17:13:08
Speaker 4
You know, companies, even though they might there might be an expectation from some stakeholders to engage on a whole host of issues, as Robbins research shows us, some of those issues are more material than others, things like economic growth and job skills. These are things that people expect of companies more than than some other issues. And so the role for the Co here is to be a unifying figure, to be at the center of, of kind of integrating various perspectives to find common ground with stakeholders and and to be a force for ensuring that that corporate character is constant and pervasive.

00:17:13:10 - 00:17:18:16
Speaker 4
And it's ever, ever in evidence and everything that a company does and says, and that's a big job.

00:17:18:18 - 00:17:47:16
Speaker 2
Yeah, that certainly is a big job. And and, Rob, I want to get get to you in a second about, you know, the impact of AI and some, some unique things you had there, but kind of reacting to what what Elliot said there as he was talking about the challenge of the Co. I thought this was really interesting in your research because Elliot was talking about those acronym ESG and, and what I thought was interesting and you may have like a broader perspective on this outside of this study.

00:17:47:18 - 00:18:09:10
Speaker 2
But what was interesting was you hear that and you see that, and it's like reflected in a lot of the financial news. Yeah, Alan Murray's thing is he's really struggling with that, you know, back and forth. But then when I look at the actual survey you have and the way you ask questions, when you break them out of the acronym, you know, how important is racial minority equity or equality?

00:18:09:10 - 00:18:33:05
Speaker 2
That's at like 78% income inequality, like 81%. You're seeing a lot of these things, gender equality at like 77%. What was interesting to me is when you break them out of the acronym, how high they actually score and importance. But then there's a mix on confidence, and I just wasn't sure if you had any perspective on people's viewpoint.

00:18:33:05 - 00:18:42:14
Speaker 2
Once you break it out of the acronym, it seems like they generally support, you know, these big concepts that businesses share is basically challenge to manage.

00:18:42:16 - 00:19:01:20
Speaker 3
Yeah. I think you're, you're very squarely getting to one of that, one of the biggest risks kind of across the board, I'd say, especially if you're sitting in a US boardroom right now, one of the biggest risks of reputational risks, which again, I think right now are higher on the board agenda than they've ever been, is very much around this kind of polarization and politicization of issues.

00:19:01:22 - 00:19:26:08
Speaker 3
One of the things that's become very apparent is, if you have a term, and one of your terms is like three different things, that are very kind of none of which really indicate any sort of a benefit, but are just kind of functional descriptions. The, the level of jargon is substantial and the ability for, for people to turn that term into whatever they want it to be is, is quite high.

00:19:26:10 - 00:19:46:23
Speaker 3
Right? And in contrast to that, to, to the point you're getting at, Steve, and I think you can get even more detailed is as you look at a lot of the underlying elements, if you ask, you know, the public or other stakeholders, right. Is it important for for companies to have a positive impact on the environment or not, a negative impact on the environment to to improve the communities where, where, where they where they work and operate and their employees live?

00:19:47:01 - 00:20:09:06
Speaker 3
To have very strong governance practices. Yeah. Overwhelming yeses. Right. But along those issues, they're there certainly, you know, if you if you laddered up to something called ESG or other terms like DNI, they've they for sure, like most people don't even understand what those things mean. Right. But there's people that have told them that they're they're horrible and they're like the end of capitalism, they're the end of civilization, etc..

00:20:09:08 - 00:20:30:22
Speaker 3
But so you turn it from kind of a concrete conversation on what we're doing to showcase progress, to kind of very much a philosophical jargony, highly heated emotional debate. Right. So, yeah, the specifics matter when you look at it, when you look within the research, even on those issues. Right. I think it's particularly noteworthy.

00:20:30:22 - 00:20:58:15
Speaker 3
We look at the data split a lot of the different ways, like for example, by age, by political leaning, by urban and by urban city, like urban rural. You see, you do see some pretty substantial differences. Right? So but on in terms of importance, you have a lot more consistency. You know, the confidence numbers do do differ substantially if you're looking at, for example, globally liberal versus more conservative in the US, very specifically Democrat versus, versus Republican.

00:20:58:17 - 00:21:14:07
Speaker 3
But also to the point you're getting at, Steve, none of those numbers, they didn't dropped like 20% importance or something. Right? So I think one of the biggest takeaways, you know, and one of the one of the big privileges of working with page and especially on this project, is we've had a chance to talk with a lot of page members in different countries on this.

00:21:14:07 - 00:21:35:23
Speaker 3
Right. And one of the main takeaways is not, oh, like, we should just stay silent on everything except those two issues. That's not the case, right? It's more so saying we need to start with those two issues. If we don't reinforce our credibility and our competence on those things and jump over to other issues, then people might question where our priorities are and like, are we actually good at the foundation of what we do or not?

00:21:36:01 - 00:22:01:16
Speaker 3
Right? Versus if we're able to move off those very quickly and ideally showcase through our business, through our hiring, how we're actually improving a lot of these issues and being very specific that that progress. There's a huge opportunity. Right. So and that's I think that's one of the things that when we look at the, you know, CSOs, especially over the last 2 or 3 years, you know, there's for sure been coming out of many boards, an emphasis on like, we really shouldn't just talk about any of these things, right.

00:22:01:16 - 00:22:16:02
Speaker 3
Versus, you know, what most of most of the research would indicate is we just need to be much more specific about what we're saying, right? If this is something we really believe in, how are we showing that we're actually that we've made progress on it versus just talking about it being something that is broadly important?

00:22:16:06 - 00:22:35:05
Speaker 2
So. So, Elliot, in the conversations you're having with, chief communication officers around the globe, is is that what you're hearing? That that they're really looking at? How do we illustrate and isolate these key issues? Start a little bit at the common ground and then get into more specifics in terms of what the what the brand is doing?

00:22:35:07 - 00:22:58:17
Speaker 4
I think what I would say is, we're starting to see more methodical approaches to deciding whether and how to engage on these issues. You know, there was, I think, you know, around the time of George Floyd in, in the, you know, 18 months after, it felt like there was just an expectation that if there was, there was an issue companies needed to have a position and to be vocal on it.

00:22:58:18 - 00:23:27:15
Speaker 4
That that was just the new norm. And I think since, a couple of, instances where that's gone awry, companies have been understand to be more judicious about it. What we see Co's doing is being more methodical about interpreting the relevance of an issue. Both the relevance of an issue to the organization and its stakeholders, but also the relevance of the organization with stakeholders to the issue and whether or not there really is a place and an impact that they can have.

00:23:27:15 - 00:23:56:09
Speaker 4
And so I think it's not a question of, you know, trying to do less or kind of duck your head. It's, it's a question of having a really reliable, repeatable, consistent process of making decisions about what is our posture on these different issues, what actions can we take to make progress on those issues. And we see CEOs stepping up to use data and input from various stakeholders to make better decisions along those lines.

00:23:56:11 - 00:24:22:08
Speaker 2
Oh that's great. Now, the one thing you missed, Ali, you didn't say, I how can we have a conversation without bringing in, in the word AI? And and Rob, you know, you mentioned to me the other day that you see these two dueling trends, like one of the economic stability and two, that job creation and skills development as a huge opportunity for brands, specifically as it relates to an area like talent development.

00:24:22:10 - 00:24:49:10
Speaker 2
So given the overlay of AI, dramatic impact on seemingly, well, everything, you know, you've got, like AI, there's a myriad of you, but there's, you know, one side is is, you know, purely dystopian scenarios, you know, predicting computers are going to take over all of the Terminator. That's it. We're done. We released, you know, a AI. You have others that are out there really fearing about the loss of jobs and becoming obsolete.

00:24:49:12 - 00:25:18:19
Speaker 2
And what I find interesting. And you're seeing it daily in the business, media, is that there are roles that were highly skill, that were traditionally somewhat insulated, you know, specialties like law, like accounting, even investing that are now facing AI and, you know, are those individuals even needed anymore? And then there's another view of this that basically says, no, no, no, AI is going to be a positive game changer in productivity and innovation.

00:25:18:19 - 00:25:42:04
Speaker 2
All those rote tasks that both blue collar and white collar workers were doing, they're going to be taken care of by AI so they can focus on higher value tasks. So within that myriad of things and those often conflicting viewpoint, you know, you had kind of a viewpoint of what you saw as an uncharted opportunity for brands and corporation as it as it relates to the workforce.

00:25:42:04 - 00:25:45:00
Speaker 2
So do you mind sharing a little bit of that?

00:25:45:02 - 00:25:59:05
Speaker 3
Yeah. So I'll, I'll do two things. One is I'll point to a couple pieces of the data and then I'll pivot off that quick. Right. First the one of the first things I would say is when you're, when you're looking at AI and especially some of, in terms of the research is some of the negative impacts of it, right?

00:25:59:05 - 00:26:20:08
Speaker 3
That, I mean, the negative impacts of AI was, was one of the things that trended higher. I will say it's interesting that and this has come through in conversations we've had in places like China versus the UK versus the US. The the negative impacts conversation is also very different in different markets. Right? It is if you're living in Canada or the US or the UK, it is so prevalent, right.

00:26:20:08 - 00:26:39:09
Speaker 3
Versus in other markets like AI is more of just kind of like a, a layer that's there. And and many people have maybe more confidence being it's dealt with. I think the bigger and more important and the, and the point that you're, you're, you're laddering up to is when you look at the intersection and those two issues, we're very drawn to that.

00:26:39:09 - 00:26:59:11
Speaker 3
The second aspect of that second issue, right, which is around skills development. Right? I think it's like when one of your massive opportunities right now is, is very much around, you know, how is how does I kind of enable a culture shift, right. What are the skills that that that are required. Right. Versus just a sprint to embed as much AI as possible?

00:26:59:12 - 00:27:24:08
Speaker 3
Right. I think very quickly, like if you if you look at most companies and the the amount of dollars that they're putting into kind of developing new kind of AI programs versus overall kind of like improving skills and talent for, for the next generation. The level of investment in one versus the other is is substantial, right. So as we're looking at companies and we're looking at for, for most companies still your intellectual capital is your number one asset.

00:27:24:10 - 00:27:46:21
Speaker 3
You know, if you if you're looking for the companies that can really win on an employees are going to win in the in the marketplace. I think that and that skills piece is a massive opportunity. And across a lot of different research we're doing. But this the research here highlights it is, you know, our ability to just tell a story, about and through our employees about the future and showcase that through how our business operates is like massive.

00:27:46:23 - 00:27:58:06
Speaker 3
And it's a very human story, too. Right? I think that's one of the one of the key things that, you know, as as communicators and as storytellers, human stories work much better than, jargony technical stories.

00:27:58:08 - 00:28:11:23
Speaker 2
So Elliot, you definitely have your thoughts on AI. And as you're talking to CEOs around the globe and what Rob was really talking about, the challenges or the opportunities, what's what's the viewpoint from cos.

00:28:12:01 - 00:28:32:19
Speaker 4
You really kick the hornet's nest with me. I really could go on. I thought long and hard about what I wanted to say, just to keep it contained. There's a few things that I would say, I think certainly cos just like any function today, they are thinking really hard about how to capitalize on the advantages that I can present.

00:28:32:21 - 00:28:52:12
Speaker 4
And I've got some thoughts about how all that's going to unfold. I think maybe that's a conversation for another day, but one of the issues that relates to to to the research that Robin Harris did is there's a real concern about job displacement and this idea that AI is going to disrupt, you know, labor markets and the ability to people to work.

00:28:52:14 - 00:29:13:13
Speaker 4
I think it's more likely that I like a lot of technologies that came before it are going to transform the way that we work, but not but I think expectations will increase. So it won't be that you only need one person to do the work that five people did before is that those five people will be able to do different forms and higher value of work, and it takes time to get there.

00:29:13:15 - 00:29:29:16
Speaker 4
It reminds me of, Brittany Paxman, who's the principal at at point 600. She often uses this example of the vacuum cleaner that when it was introduced in the 50s, you know, housewives everywhere rejoiced that this is going to, you know, create so much more free time for them because it'll be so much easier to clean the house.

00:29:29:18 - 00:29:59:17
Speaker 4
But what actually ended up happening was the expectations of home cleanliness increased. And so they found themselves busier rather than less busy. And I wonder if that'll be the same here in in terms of what I think the the positive developments of AI and managing the negative potential. I think one of the things that organizations really struggle with, they struggle with always is there's so much knowledge that's locked within the community, the organization and little pockets of specializations and expertise.

00:29:59:19 - 00:30:19:17
Speaker 4
And it's really difficult to make that knowledge accessible across the entire organization. I think companies will begin to develop their own proprietary AI models that are a combination of ChatGPT plus all their own data. So no matter where you sit in the organization, you can have a chatbot and you can find the information, the data, the policy, whatever you're looking for.

00:30:19:19 - 00:30:40:23
Speaker 4
All of that stuff will be readily available. And I think that creates a huge opportunity for people to be more productive and impactful. But I think for CFOs, one of the things that's flying under the radar that I think is really important is AI is dumb. People don't realize it is a machine. It is garbage in, garbage out, and it operates on the basis of what we choose to train it on.

00:30:41:01 - 00:30:59:14
Speaker 4
And those are human decisions. That's why we see so much bias in AI. It's not me because the AI is flawed, it's how we're training it. And so, you know, there's there's this this thought experiment around the paperclip that if you told I, you know, maximize the production of paperclips, it would kill us all because it knows nothing else to maximize the production of paperclips.

00:30:59:16 - 00:31:20:22
Speaker 4
What I think schools need to do is think about this reality that you need to have a moral and ethical and a responsible adoption of AI, one that minimizes its potential for harm and maximizes its opportunity to create value. And I think a lot of that is going to come down to kids who have, you know, the reputation and brand safety as part of their remit.

00:31:21:00 - 00:31:38:09
Speaker 4
You know, nobody wants to be the company that's caught in some, you know, major kerfuffle because they didn't think through the empathic implications of AI. And so I think this is the beginning of a really long transition period where a lot of these issues will reveal themselves, and CSOs are going to have to help their organizations navigate through them.

00:31:38:11 - 00:32:02:17
Speaker 2
Well, and I think part of the challenge of that with codes is to remain innately human, right? There's certain aspects of really the communications function or the the expanding remit where it sets that that understanding of context, that understanding of emotion, that understanding of timing, you know, are very difficult to be done by the machine. So it's going to be interesting to see how those are done in tandem.

00:32:02:19 - 00:32:21:07
Speaker 3
These. All right. I just I it's going to add on to I apologize for jumping in but like the I mean it's just also the whole point that Ellie made at the beginning. Right. Scarce resources like although there's these bigger things around organizational change. If, comms teams don't get on technology and AI fast, it's a huge mess, right?

00:32:21:07 - 00:32:42:06
Speaker 3
I mean, there's just so many like, basic enablers that it provides right now. Because to that, the point I think you're making there at the end is human context and insights are still very human things, right? Like we do a lot of insights work you and we do. We use tons of AI now to accelerate processes, but you never have AI giving you the insight at the at the end of the chain.

00:32:42:07 - 00:32:48:02
Speaker 3
Right? It's always a set of humans and interpretation and context and the humans they're delivering too well.

00:32:48:04 - 00:33:25:01
Speaker 2
And what I what I think things interesting about that point, Rob, is, is I feel like the human context is constantly evolving, you know, and individually at a family level, at a community, at a at a national level, I think things are not static. And some of you know, the research, I've seen you present that ten years ago, certain attitudes and viewpoints you would have assumed would be the US context or Republican nature in terms of confidence and view on corporations are now more of a democratic viewpoint and things that ten years ago, whereas a democratic viewpoint could be a Republican viewpoint.

00:33:25:01 - 00:33:37:14
Speaker 2
So you know, that's also important as you think about what you were talking about, of those human insights, the context and emotions. We're not a static species as much as we as we as some folks might, might think we are.

00:33:37:15 - 00:33:45:13
Speaker 3
Yeah, exactly. You know, very clear. It's 180 degrees on on kind of how different political branches in the US think about business 100%.

00:33:45:13 - 00:33:52:01
Speaker 4
So I just a really quick another comment about I have either of you heard of the turkey problem. You know, that is.

00:33:52:06 - 00:33:53:19
Speaker 2
No, I've not heard of that.

00:33:53:21 - 00:34:10:23
Speaker 4
And it's maybe a little too American, but the turkey problem is the idea that if you're a turkey, you wake up every day, you get fed, you stand in the sun. Every day is wonderful. You got nothing to worry about until one day in November. That day is very different for you, and you didn't see it coming because your experience up to that point had been the same every day.

00:34:11:01 - 00:34:36:01
Speaker 4
And I think that this goes to the point about the human element, that the systems, if they're trained on all the data in the world, everything that's been written up till today, you know, they know what's known and they can maybe extrapolate and interpret. And that's really powerful. But I think human's ability to be more creative about the possibilities is always going to be an essential supplement to what, what you know, the technology can do to supplement it.

00:34:36:01 - 00:34:50:06
Speaker 4
So, you know, the turkey problem is something that's always going to be the case. And I think you see SEOs as leaders, as antennas. We've got that broad purview, and an opportunity to help the organization see more broadly than maybe historical data can show us.

00:34:50:11 - 00:35:18:15
Speaker 2
But but as you, as, as you both kind of talked about that, I guess it really struck me a lot of this really takes it to the core of the the cow's job and remit from what it's been since the codes were created, which is how do you blend the art and science. Right. And I think when you're talking about the impact of AI and these type of things, the science part of it and the ability to aggregate create new things, there's more science than ever that they have to deal with.

00:35:18:15 - 00:35:42:03
Speaker 2
But there's also the art of how do you how do you put this together in a meaningful way that is true to your brand, true to your values, true to what you're seeing with a with a landscape, you know, and you and you hope you get it right. So, you know, a couple of questions. I could I could talk to you guys for hours on these topics, but I want to kind of bring us back to a lot of what we've covered here.

00:35:42:03 - 00:36:06:18
Speaker 2
You know, Ali, you really started talking about you've got this expanding remit of chief communicator officers. Half the world, at least half of the democratic world is an election this year. You've but those that aren't Democratic doesn't mean that there's not geopolitical issues or challenges that are being created around the world. You've got technology, you've got innovation. You know, you've got the research that you guys did with the Harris Poll.

00:36:06:18 - 00:36:24:07
Speaker 2
We're really talking about economic stability, growth, job creation, workforce skills. That's an awful lot. So what closing advice this page have for chief communication officers and senior communications professionals on how to make the most out of this moment of time?

00:36:24:08 - 00:36:56:07
Speaker 4
I think if I were narrow it and this is my my advice. The first is, businesses operate in a much more multi-stakeholder environment today. And what I mean by that is the risks associated with not engaging with understanding and orienting the organization around the interests and concerns of all of their stakeholders present greater challenges, say stakeholder capitalism is a thing today because, various publics have expectations of business that they need to fulfill.

00:36:56:09 - 00:37:24:07
Speaker 4
And co those are the multi-stakeholder function. We have the broadest purview across the stakeholder universe. And so I think navigating those realities and making sure that that there's a balance across stakeholders, is really essential. And as I said earlier, there's the second piece of advice is more methodical approaches to doing that. I think communications functions today. They're synthesizing data and input and just the reality of events of the world.

00:37:24:07 - 00:37:43:13
Speaker 4
And they're able to develop a point of view about the valence of the organization for certain issues and activities, but also the valence of those activities and issues to the organization. And I think having a consistent, repeatable process that's reliable becomes really important. Because once you set a precedent, it's hard to kind of back off of that.

00:37:43:15 - 00:38:13:20
Speaker 4
The third thing I would say is, and this sounds a little airy fairy, but I mean, a genuinely, business has this kind of goes to the multi-stakeholder view. Business has a unique opportunity to make the world better. Nobody started a business purely because they wanted to make money. They started a business because they saw a problem, a way to create value, a way to make life better or lives better and the better companies can connect to that core purpose, that animating purpose, and accentuated and amplify it.

00:38:13:22 - 00:38:29:19
Speaker 4
I think the more likely it is that they will be able to build lasting, positive relationships with stakeholders. And again, CSOs are at the center of that. You think about corporate character. The purpose is often at the center of that identity of the organization. Why we get out of bed every morning and go to work to do the work that we do.

00:38:29:19 - 00:38:52:02
Speaker 4
Why employees want to stay with our companies and remain engaged in their work. It's because they feel and they see and they know that the work that we're doing is somehow making the world a better place. And for communicators, it's about telling that story, certainly, but it's about making sure that you also have that story to tell. And that's about organizational change.

00:38:52:04 - 00:39:14:13
Speaker 4
And what we see across today is the communications are, you know, the last mile, right, the 25.2 miles that come earlier in the marathon are about organize change to make sure that you are consistent on ESG, that you are consistent on issues that you are operating in, in accordance with your your values and your beliefs and your brand.

00:39:14:13 - 00:39:34:16
Speaker 4
And so, you know, Steve, I kind of go back to the top of your point, which I think is interesting around brand gravity. You know, that brand gravity is in many ways, the, the relationship, the magnetism between I have a relationship with this organization because I understand what it does. I believe in what it does. And I can see that evidence.

00:39:34:18 - 00:39:41:11
Speaker 4
And I think a lot of what they do today is about finding a way to convey that in a way that's that's clear and compelling.

00:39:41:17 - 00:40:03:21
Speaker 2
Do good, run the marathon, build brand gravity. I like that. That's that's great advice. And and Rob you know you you said you've got a really unique point that you set, my friend. And you know, the access you have to the data and to the research. But but not only that, it's like every time I go to talk to you, I don't know where in the world you're going to be.

00:40:03:21 - 00:40:23:10
Speaker 2
Middle East, Europe. I mean, you're getting that kind text and and that real time counsel with CEOs using all that insights at the Harrisburg Lanes as your counseling coaches around the world as you're listening to them. What's your advice to CEOs on the path ahead?

00:40:23:12 - 00:40:49:16
Speaker 3
Three things. So the first and foremost, the the most successful companies that that either we work with or that that we've been able to to analytically model, they, they balance two things extremely well. Right. And that's, a the ambition of the company. Right. So its growth prospects, its vision, its products, with its character. Right. It's very much around kind of the culture or the ethics, the citizenship behind it.

00:40:49:18 - 00:41:07:10
Speaker 3
And you need to have both of those elements. So if you if you're a company that's only ambition, no character you're going to be there's going to be a lot of potholes. It's going to be a bumpy ride. Right. Even if you make some money, flip side is if you're a company, that's all character, you know, very low ambition or the ambition is not working.

00:41:07:10 - 00:41:32:17
Speaker 3
It's going to be very problematic. You're either not a for profit company or you're you're out of, or you're bankrupt. Right. So that's the first thing. And just even having that simple lens, you know, analytically, you want more depth, you want a lot more stakeholders, lot more markets. But that's like it's a simple framework. The second is when you're thinking about telling that story of ambition and character, you know, what are the 2 or 3 examples from your organization that really tell that story?

00:41:32:19 - 00:41:54:04
Speaker 3
Right? Where where can you see that clear intersection between what you do in your business and how you do your business? Right? And then the third thing is, the number of blind spots that we still see for companies today is remarkable, especially as companies are looking at their as you look at companies, digital footprints and the changing nature of reputational risk.

00:41:54:09 - 00:42:10:19
Speaker 3
And I'm not talking just like what's on Twitter or social media, I'm talking about like, you know, the digital landscape at large. Like if you're searching for a company, there are massive blind spots for, for, for most companies, and they're only getting bigger if people aren't addressing them. So it's this those three things together, I think are the, you know, main takeaways.

00:42:10:21 - 00:42:38:00
Speaker 2
And that's that's really, really sound advice. And what a fascinating discussion. So I want to thank Rob Jaco. Lack of the Harris Poll Elliot Mizrahi page for today's fascinating discussion. And I also want to point out the research that we're talking about is available on page.org. And, hopefully we gave you plenty of insights today that will help you create positive brand gravity for your own brands and the brands you serve.

00:42:38:01 - 00:42:52:03
Speaker 2
So tune in next time to hear more conversation and insights from tremendous leaders. And, thought leaders like Elliot and Rob. I'm Steve Halsey, thank you for joining us on this episode of Building Brand Gravity.

00:42:52:05 - 00:43:21:04
Speaker 1
We are gonna business communications. We are a team of media strategists, storytellers, and engagement experts who meet you at the intersection of business and communications. To learn more, visit GE's communications.com. You're listening to building Brand Gravity, attracting People into Your orbit a business communications podcast. Keep connected with us by subscribing to the show in your favorite podcast player.

00:43:21:09 - 00:43:32:20
Speaker 1
If you like what you've heard, please rate the show. That helps us to keep delivering the latest in industry influence. Thanks for listening. Until next time.

00:00:00:02 - 00:00:15:07
Speaker 2
Hello and welcome to Building Brand Gravity. I'm Anne Green, I'm CEO here at Sheerness Business Communications, and I'm delighted to be joined today by a friend and a colleague and an amazing thinker and a woman that I really admire. Natalie Nixon, welcome, Natalie.

00:00:15:09 - 00:00:18:20
Speaker 3
Hi. And thank you so much for having me. It's good to be here.

00:00:18:22 - 00:00:35:02
Speaker 2
So, Natalie, I'm not going to go through your whole bio because we're going to kind of dried out as we talk. But I think what's really intriguing to start and sort of center our conversation, is just thinking about the list of attributes and of your journey over the years. You are a dancer, you're an academic, you're a PhD.

00:00:35:07 - 00:00:56:00
Speaker 2
You are a professor. You're a speaker, you're an author, you're a design thinker. You run workshops. I mean, you've had such a broad career that we're going to get into. But one of the titles that I really love is The Creativity Whisperer, which is perfect for podcast The Creativity Whisperer. So what is that is so intriguing? What does that mean?

00:00:56:00 - 00:00:59:04
Speaker 2
And how did you come to this very intriguing moniker?

00:00:59:06 - 00:01:22:16
Speaker 3
Well, that was a moniker given to me, and I was I've been highly flattered to be called that. And I love it because it captures my goal of conjuring out from people, especially, who may not self-identify as creative, how absolutely creative their work is, their approach to their work. And it's my goal to really help people build their creative capacity.

00:01:22:16 - 00:01:49:21
Speaker 3
So, you know, often in the hallowed halls of fortune 500, fortune 100 companies is not necessarily deemed appropriate to talk about creativity. Innovation is okay, but creativity not so much. And in the early years of starting and building for great thinking, I was called in many a time to help build a culture of innovation, and I quickly discerned that we were starting in the wrong place.

00:01:49:23 - 00:02:21:01
Speaker 3
We actually needed to start with creativity. Problem, of course, was that so many people only associate creativity with artists with the field of design, and it was my perspective and something I've proven out through my research. The best and most innovative plumbers and engineers and scientists and attorneys and teachers and accountants and artists are super creative when they're, you know, I'm sure we'll get into a little bit later, but this, this, these dimensions of wonder and rigor toggling through wonder and rigor is really important.

00:02:21:04 - 00:02:25:14
Speaker 3
But but convincing people of that takes a bit of whispering.

00:02:25:16 - 00:02:47:13
Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. And there's that breaking through barriers of perception I mean tell me more about that. That distinction that people have. They might think it's innovation, but they're missing the role that creativity plays. Or how have you tried to first of all, recognize that that was a tension or a dichotomy? And then how do you unpack that for people to say, hey, we got to get clear about what we're actually talking about here.

00:02:47:15 - 00:03:10:16
Speaker 3
Well, first of all, there was no very rarely within an organization, within a sector. Is there a lingua franca about innovation. And what often happens is innovation theater or innovation becomes siloed. It becomes the room or the department where people get to air quotes, hear, play with sticky notes all day. Which is a bit insulting. And that's not exactly what's going on.

00:03:10:18 - 00:03:36:09
Speaker 3
But then I had to really wrestle with with thinking to myself, okay, if I'm if I'm going to be offering a critique of the way people are currently approaching innovation, I better come up with a pretty compelling alternative. And so the way I think about innovation is that an innovation is an invention, a one off, a conceptual one off, converted into scalable value.

00:03:36:11 - 00:04:03:14
Speaker 3
So how do you go from that one off to that scalable value? That could be financial value. Social value, cultural value. The the converting factor, the conversion factor to go from that one off invention. Pretty cool. To that scalable value is creativity, is creativity that helps us to convert from that one off to that scalable value. So innovation is actually fueled by creativity.

00:04:03:14 - 00:04:15:00
Speaker 3
If we want to innovate in a sustainable and consistent manner, we have to build the creative capacity of ourselves as individuals, of our teams and of our organizations.

00:04:15:02 - 00:04:35:21
Speaker 2
It's interesting hearing you define that, because one of the questions I had for you is why creativity as a lens or an organizing principle? And it sounds like for you it's that you came to that understanding that that's a generative factor. I mean, creativity is always generative in its own ways, but am I right in thinking of it?

00:04:35:21 - 00:04:45:20
Speaker 2
That way, that that that's because of its role in sort of catalyzing something that might be an idea into something larger that that became a lens for you. Is that right?

00:04:45:22 - 00:05:20:07
Speaker 3
Well, that's exactly right. It is a catalyst. It's something that does not get, you know, creativity actually loves constraints. It loves constraints on time, on budget, on people, talent. So I never stop at the excuse of, well, we just don't have time or we don't have the people talent. That's actually awesome. And we can all reflect back into moments in our lives, our careers where it was in those moments, those chapters where we had such constraints that we were actually Uber creative.

00:05:20:09 - 00:05:28:11
Speaker 3
And so, yeah, that that idea of thinking about creativity as a catalyst is, is a real important inception point for me.

00:05:28:13 - 00:05:48:13
Speaker 2
I love the idea. I want to come back to that. Creativity is constraint a little bit later, because I think that's very important, and I think it's not. I do think there's a lot of misconceptions about what that creative space should be or is or is expected to be, especially in a corporate setting. You know, I've been agency side and the corporate communications for over 30 years now.

00:05:48:13 - 00:06:15:19
Speaker 2
And so I've seen a lot of manifestations that of, you know, we're meeting to be creative right now, which is usually the B-word. The brainstorm, which can be a much abused subject. But how did you you know, as I said, you've had a very diverse journey of your own in very creative. How did you come to the place today where you have figure it out thinking, you know, which is advisory, but also and as a speaker and as a writer and an author.

00:06:15:19 - 00:06:22:09
Speaker 2
I know you've written one book called The Creativity Leap. You're writing another. Now, you know, how did you come to this place?

00:06:22:11 - 00:06:50:12
Speaker 3
Well, it was very loopy. It's a big question. It was it was not a direct route. And to be honest with you, and I committed to following the nudge. I committed to follow my heart and the intuition. So you hinted at my diverse, loopy background of a background and cultural anthropology and the fashion industry and an education as a teacher and and as a qualitative researcher.

00:06:50:12 - 00:07:15:15
Speaker 3
And literally every single work experience I have had has converged to give me the tools, the toolkit, that's made figure thinking. And the way figure eight thinking came about was really it started as a side hustle. I was a professor at the time. I was actually a professor for 16 years. The first ten years I taught the business of fashion.

00:07:15:17 - 00:07:44:03
Speaker 3
The last six years I created and launched a strategic Design MBA program. And our goal in launching the Strategic Design MBA program was to offer the best of business school meets the best of design school. So already you see my my leaning towards hybrid thinking. We actually call it the MBA for hybrid thinkers. But by leaning towards hybrid thinking and multidisciplinary approaches.

00:07:44:05 - 00:08:06:11
Speaker 3
But I gave a TEDx Philadelphia talk in 2014 where I was proclaiming that the future of work is jazz, and here's why and how. After giving that talk, I started getting invited into companies to help them essentially do that work of figuring out how do we become more improvizational in our approaches to building services and experiences and products?

00:08:06:13 - 00:08:43:23
Speaker 3
And I was facilitating I was doing some consulting. I was I would speak here and there. I'm still a full time associate professor, and my husband John said, babe, this is becoming a thing. You should probably formalize it. And I was like, okay. So I created figure eight, thinking totally as a side hustle. Interestingly, I originally wanted to call it only figure eight, but that LLC name was taken and I'm so happy now that I tagged on the word thinking because as it turns out, a I'm a nerd, so thinking is pretty core to what I enjoy doing and how I spend a lot of my days and my time.

00:08:44:01 - 00:09:13:06
Speaker 3
But be I think one of my superpowers is my ability to help people rethink, reframe the ways that they are thinking. And the reason that matters is that if you shift your mental model that begins to shift behaviors, which ultimately shifts culture. So it all starts with how we think. And that figure eight was really to connote the iterative process, the building out and then revisiting of an idea.

00:09:13:08 - 00:09:37:12
Speaker 3
So but that's the background about how I got there. And really my, my background in fashion, is where I bring in trends and foresight work. My background and cultural anthropology gave me the and qualitative research gave me the ability to ask questions in a different way. Get the worms eye view. My role as a speaker, my my background in dance, as a teacher, comes into play hugely.

00:09:37:12 - 00:09:41:21
Speaker 3
So I'm at a really magical place in my career, in my work.

00:09:41:23 - 00:10:07:17
Speaker 2
It's a lot of points of intersection. You know, we talk about intersectionality in many different ways, you know, in the formal way. It was originally intended, but now almost more metaphorically, and the idea of hybrid thinking, we're in a hybrid world where understanding that notion of being hybrid in very practical, physical ways, as we work in different spaces, as we navigate different spaces.

00:10:07:17 - 00:10:18:06
Speaker 2
So I love that idea of bringing that hybrid model of thinking. I think that's very evocative of the space that we're in right now. You know, it's an interesting construct.

00:10:18:08 - 00:10:38:22
Speaker 3
It is right. And it's that I think we're a lot better at it than we sometimes give ourselves credit for. If we just kind of let go of the construction of how, frankly, we've been educated, you know, most of us have been educated to on the side of what is the answer? What is a solution? Not falling in love with the process.

00:10:38:22 - 00:10:44:15
Speaker 3
So hybrid thinking, hybrid work becomes an opportunity to really fall in love with the process.

00:10:44:17 - 00:11:03:16
Speaker 2
Yeah. One of my mantras as an organization leader, the people are going to get sick of hearing, and my role is that two things can be true at one time. That zero sum thinking, or especially us versus them thinking. That's that's another aspect of zero sum thinking is, is really destructive. And there are times where things are very clear.

00:11:03:18 - 00:11:27:02
Speaker 2
This is this, that, is that fantastic. But if there's nuance we live to that need to live in the nuance and there's dynamic tensions to be attended to, you know, there's going to be a push and pull and multiple things can be true at one time. And I feel like that that really speaks to what you're saying, which is we live in a world that's like that on a macro level, and not just our businesses or the nonprofits or the work that we do our lives.

00:11:27:04 - 00:11:40:09
Speaker 2
The geopolitical scene, the whole world around us is fraught with questions like that and tensions and trying to figure out, how we stay flexible in our thinking is important. I think.

00:11:40:11 - 00:12:03:19
Speaker 3
You're right. And I'm really macro and meta level. The need for flexibility and hyper thinking is is necessary. Now more than ever. We could do geopolitical issues to interpersonal concerns to, you know, just just where our various societies are growing. We need to adopt and embrace that flexibility and hybrid ness.

00:12:03:20 - 00:12:22:13
Speaker 2
So you've talked about organizations, and as you said earlier, that could be a nonprofit. It can be a fortune 50 or 500. It could be really any type of organization. I've worked with many across my career over all these years of all sizes. You talked about innovation as a potential pressure point of, oh, we're trying to break through and understand what that means.

00:12:22:13 - 00:12:37:10
Speaker 2
What are some of the other challenges or problems that organizations or individuals come to you to try to solve? Because there's a lot of different ways that I feel like the work you're doing and the thinking you bring to it can apply.

00:12:37:11 - 00:13:09:03
Speaker 3
One that's become I'm starting to see a pattern around in terms of the requests that I get is, to normalize curiosity is to help us. And I, for example, I was hired by, a major global law firm. By C-suite team there to help them shift their thinking so that curiosity doesn't, become punitive. But instead it is the beginning of discovery.

00:13:09:04 - 00:13:26:10
Speaker 3
And that was an awesome engagement, because, you know, I'm married to an attorney. John is an attorney. He does that sexy law that, Orissa tax benefits low an executive, size two font documents, etc.. He's primarily.

00:13:26:12 - 00:13:29:02
Speaker 2
70 pages. Yeah, exactly 70 pages.

00:13:29:02 - 00:13:56:05
Speaker 3
Exactly. He's primarily executive compensation attorney now, but I saw so much creativity in the way he approaches his work. There's the the wonder of like, what's the question we should be asking what do where do we need the plane to land? What is the need and the desire of the other side? And starting with that curiosity. But the rigor is knowing the law, knowing the regs.

00:13:56:05 - 00:14:19:00
Speaker 3
Right. We have we have those we have those constraints which are useful. So building a culture of curiosity is a big deal in a world and in organizations where you hired probably some A-type personalities who got to where they are because they were really good at filling in the dots, answering the question, coming up with a solution, an answer, a way of going forward.

00:14:19:05 - 00:14:54:11
Speaker 3
And then we realized that we work in markets and serve client needs that are highly ambiguous. Those are not predictive. Are constantly shifting. And so, you know, part of my training and design thinking, the value of human centered innovation and design thinking is that it really values. If you think of the Pareto rule, the 8020 rule, we should be spending 80% of our time and asking, do we even ask the right question before we go running down this rabbit hole of assumptions, which is unnerving when you've got a timeline and budget and demands.

00:14:54:11 - 00:15:31:08
Speaker 3
But if you don't flip that script of the 8020 rule, spending more time on the question framing, then you will inevitably incur all sorts of costs, tangible and intangible costs by not spending time on that. So that's one area that's been extremely exciting to me, the idea that storied law firms and pretty you know, no offense to the attorneys out there, but I have some insight by being married to one, you know, law firms try to really operate on certain levels of predictability, but to be open to the ambiguity of question framing.

00:15:31:08 - 00:16:00:10
Speaker 3
And so what I took them through was everything from, you know, what I call the taxonomy of questions, really understanding what questions are the range of questions divergent converging questions, taking them through instead of brainstorming questions, storming and really diving into generating all sorts of questions around certain parameters. And then, I love this this charge from Warren Berger, my colleague and friend Warren Burger, who's the author of a more Beautiful question.

00:16:00:15 - 00:16:32:16
Speaker 3
He calls himself a question ologist. He talks about how companies should have mission questions, not mission statements. Because if you have a mission question, right, it's much more organic. It can actually, evolve with the growth of the company. The other area that I'm helping companies with is it's it's a kind of some variation on on curiosity, but it's really about how do we see differently, how do we and a visual artist world, it's about seeing the negative space, right.

00:16:32:16 - 00:16:52:09
Speaker 3
So if you're asked to draw a vase, a vase, you don't draw the matter of the vase. You really drawing the outline of it. So you have that famous optical illusion. Is it a vase? Is is it a woman's profile? Right. That's the negative space exercise. So engaging in new ways of seeing is about being able to be much more experimental.

00:16:52:11 - 00:17:29:14
Speaker 3
It does start with asking you in different sorts of questions. It's about thinking about who we invite in on a collaboration process, because when you collaborate with people who have don't have your background, don't have your skill set, don't have your training, it opens up new ways of seeing and very exciting ways. And the third area that has been kind of a, a standard thing that I get invite to do is to build cultures of experimentation, which really starts with prototyping and not leaving prototyping to only the design team, but I've seen great prototyping happening in financial services and the health care sector.

00:17:29:16 - 00:17:44:04
Speaker 3
You can prototype services experiences in addition to products and you save so much time and money and you get buy in in the in and building and building and cultures of prototyping.

00:17:44:06 - 00:18:11:17
Speaker 2
That's really powerful. The curiosity piece I think is so critical. You know, it's something that I've always talked about. People would say even from a hiring perspective, you know, if it's a young person, and said, you know, what are you looking for? One of the first things enthusiasm is one, but intellectual curiosity is another for me. And I pair intellectual because and I want to get into your framework of wonder and rigor, because the intellectual curiosity for me sort of resonates.

00:18:11:17 - 00:18:40:06
Speaker 2
And I have a real openness to learn, but it's a directed in some way, you know, I want to dig into it. And really, that's sometimes I think you you don't need the intellectual part. You just go the curiosity piece. Right. But, in a world that is, really dynamic and they talked about it's very well discussed, the Microsoft culture shift from the last CEO to the current one, who I admire very much was from a know it all culture to a learn it all culture and that sort of energy that you're bringing.

00:18:40:06 - 00:18:59:08
Speaker 2
But but you've talked to a couple times about wonder and rigor and and I don't want to also miss and I'll get to it later of that idea of the creativity leap, which was the name of your first book. But what is Wonder and Rigor? I mean, because there is so much dynamic tension inherent in that pairing, but it's it's sort of a beautiful pairing.

00:18:59:08 - 00:19:03:07
Speaker 2
And the first time I heard it from you, I, I it really captured my imagination.

00:19:03:09 - 00:19:34:16
Speaker 3
Oh, I'm glad to hear that. I was the way I got to wonder. And rigor was actually I was doing what I call miniature ethnography. I was really interested in the question of who are the professionals who rely on their intuition? I sometimes call it pattern recognition in order to get stuff done. And my assumption, my hypothesis was, I think that first responders really rely on their intuition.

00:19:34:18 - 00:19:56:06
Speaker 3
I'm going to assume that chefs are really good at pattern recognition. And then the speedy rush rush work that they're charged to do. And I'm going to assume that I think that choreographers, dancers are also really good at pattern recognition and intuition. So that was actually what I was focused on. And I was I'm in Philadelphia, I actually happen to be from Philly.

00:19:56:06 - 00:20:21:20
Speaker 3
One of my favorite dance companies was to one is full Danco, the other is ballet. But I was observing a rehearsal of ballet acts, and there's incredible amounts of wonder that that is part of any artistry to even have this very exploratory stance. If you talk to artists about their work in progress, they are so comfortable. We asked them, you know, what are you working on?

00:20:21:20 - 00:20:48:12
Speaker 3
Where is this headed? And they'll say, I don't really know. You know, they're very open to the process. So there was that part that that intuitive nudge that especially and, and, and post postmodern ballet grooves. There is a very collaborative process between the choreographer and the dancers. But then I was noticing and so and so that kind of this obviously the wonder dimension.

00:20:48:14 - 00:21:32:04
Speaker 3
But there's clearly so much discipline and practice and focus and time on task. That's also a critical dimension of that creative artistic process. And so that that observation of those rehearsals was the beginning point for me to play around with, as you rightly call it, this tension. That is the creative process. So many times when people think about creative and if they say, well, I'm not a creative type, again, air quotes because I can't sing, dance, draw, sculpt, etc. they're also thinking that creativity is they're swimming, that creativity is doing whatever I feel like, as if it's pulling something randomly out of your armpit, which it's not at all right.

00:21:32:06 - 00:22:09:10
Speaker 3
There's so much drudgery of staring at the blank page, the blank slate I've kind of got going back to the same point over and over again. It's the rigor, the focus, the discipline discipline, the skill mastery, the time on task that's also so essential. We see this in athletics as well. Right. So the best athletes spent not just years decades honing their skill, their craft so that they can really go out there and play capital P, play in the most expensive mental Improvizational creative ways.

00:22:09:10 - 00:22:30:19
Speaker 3
They have both the wonder and the rigor and the and I'll just kind of culminate this part of our conversation by, by saying that I've always loved the way the great American dancer and choreographer Twyla Tharp has talked about how before you can think out of the box, you must start with a box, which I love because, so many times in corporate America, we hear.

00:22:30:19 - 00:22:42:06
Speaker 3
But we got to think out of the box, people. You do, but you gotta know the rules. You have mastery so that you can extend them, stretch them, rebound against them. We need both.

00:22:42:08 - 00:22:51:15
Speaker 2
It reminds me of what you're saying about. You have to know the question you're asking, too. Sometimes that question is the box. You know, what box are we even in right now? Yeah.

00:22:51:17 - 00:23:01:23
Speaker 3
Absolutely. Ask the question is the box. The question is the boundary. Coming up with the right question? Is the rigor right? It's so hard to do sometimes. Absolutely.

00:23:02:03 - 00:23:25:19
Speaker 2
And we're back to jazz, by the way. Everything you said obviously applies to jazz, which was your original analogy. You know, you're reminding me very much of that tension with folks who sit in the Creative Capital C department. And I've had the pleasure of working with creative team members across all disciplines for years and at our agency, with digital team and paid media and project management and our communications professionals.

00:23:25:19 - 00:23:51:09
Speaker 2
It's a really diverse, integrated group. But one thing I've always noticed with those who are in the official creative department, especially those who are artists and production designers, all kinds of folks, motion graphics, video it's very hard for those Type-A folks like myself. I've been one of them who are on sort of the comms side when there's a creative assignment given, you know, that tension of when will it fit on this timeline?

00:23:51:11 - 00:24:13:06
Speaker 2
And one of the things that I've had to talk about, being a whisperer between teams, I've tried to my my goal, I feel, is to create understanding between different lenses and perspectives. And depending on where people are seated, you know, I've, I've, I've had to say to folks, the creative teams have to work on a timeline and they know that this we're in a career, you know, in a professional business setting, a client service setting.

00:24:13:06 - 00:24:31:17
Speaker 2
But I've had to say to folks who don't have that job, you know, they don't know how long it'll take. Right now, they're on the blank page. They're on the blank side, they're on the blank canvas, literally, metaphorically and literally the blank canvas. Soon they will have to know. And if they don't, they'll have to bring in reinforcements, because sometimes you need that.

00:24:31:21 - 00:24:49:13
Speaker 2
And I, by the way, can start to be those creative reinforcements to, you know, to spark us. But, you're reminding me a lot about that, that that moment of, like, translating between, like, what is that you need to unleash that creativity. And sometimes it's the rigor of of sitting through that hard part.

00:24:49:15 - 00:25:11:04
Speaker 3
Well, you you grabbed the word that was at the tip of my tongue, which is translation. You are a translator and when you're in that role, that intermediary role, it's it's so much of our work as leaders as is to do these acts of translation, which means that you have to be incredibly hybrid, incredibly nimble, incredibly curious yourself.

00:25:11:06 - 00:25:43:11
Speaker 3
The other thing, the other, constraint that is always there to help any kind of creative process is the deadline. It's a certain point. It's got to be over, it's got to be done. And that's okay, because I think for anyone who's engaged in the effort of building a brand, of figuring out a new financial model, of figuring out how to enter a new market, of figuring out how to design a new fill in the blank, there, it's never going to be done.

00:25:43:14 - 00:25:57:08
Speaker 3
And as soon as you as soon as you make peace with yourself about that ambiguity, it's okay. This is a version of it. And then to be able to move on is super important.

00:25:57:10 - 00:26:15:09
Speaker 2
We see that I was just watching that show, Truman, about Truman Capote and the Swans. That's on now. Right. Which is an old school. It's a long term story, but it's, you know, now a mini series. But you know, it talked about Capote is sort of never finishing that second book, and it was him being caught in that moment.

00:26:15:09 - 00:26:33:18
Speaker 2
And the translation into the corporate setting or any really organizational setting is when the perfect becomes the enemy of the done, meaning that the perfect is the the somehow this twisted platonic ideal of the thing that you have in your head, but you can't get there, you know, and we're all guilty of that. We all get stuck in that.

00:26:33:18 - 00:27:02:06
Speaker 2
And I think these kinds of frameworks of something, even words that are as evocative as wonder and rigor to say we have to move between them. That's, I think, a powerful way just to help people shift the lens and say, how do I approach this differently? I mean, let's go back to the capital B word, brainstorm, because creativity, the locus of creativity often is either in the department where people are labeled creative and those are amazing professionals and they work very, very hard.

00:27:02:06 - 00:27:21:08
Speaker 2
Right. Or then we're going to be creative and course we're going to have a brainstorm. And my one of my mentors, Ralph Katz, was a trained facilitator and had brainstorm rules and was very disciplined. A lot of rigor about what did you actually have to bring to a brainstorm to generate something? And unfortunately, no surprise world like this.

00:27:21:12 - 00:27:33:19
Speaker 2
Here's a revelation. Many of them don't work well. What's your diagnosis of what's happening in those moments where we're supposed to be gathering for creativity and yet somehow they're it's not working?

00:27:33:21 - 00:28:02:06
Speaker 3
Well, I think that brainstorming is okay, as long as we don't constrict and restrict that moment to the only time when it could be happening, there needs to be some sort of metaphorical parking lot that accompany an organization, a team always has available, whether or not it's a devoted space on a whiteboard where people can continue to to share ideas.

00:28:02:08 - 00:28:28:16
Speaker 3
Whether it's slack, whether, you know, whether you got to use some kind of technological tool. But to understand that the brainstorming session is a phase of it. And ideally, brainstorming is juicier when you can brainstorm an idea with people who come from a different department, who don't arrive with the same questions conundrums, who will challenge your assumptions.

00:28:28:16 - 00:28:54:21
Speaker 3
So someone who I referenced frequently in my keynotes is Jerry Hirshberg, who used to be the head of design at Nissan, and Jerry used to always require his design teams to bring in people from finance, HR or manufacturing or sales. Didn't really matter, but but a range of people to help contribute to the process and a first for everyone.

00:28:54:21 - 00:29:20:15
Speaker 3
There's hands on the hips. None of us, when we're really honest, likes to collaborate because we think, oh my gosh, we can do this so much faster by ourselves. They do not understand what we do, etc. etc. but the good part of of of these kind of collaboration processes, processes that Jerry Hirshberg set up was that he was inviting and cognitive diversity, and he began to call this creative abrasion.

00:29:20:20 - 00:29:48:05
Speaker 3
He understood that the people would abrade against this sort of collaboration, that it would cause friction. And what he understood is that what friction yields at the end of the day is energy. So why not convert that energy into something positive? So, you know, I love that you're your friend and colleague. Katz talks about bringing all sorts of restrictions and framing things and, and narrowing in the focus.

00:29:48:05 - 00:30:11:12
Speaker 3
It's there's no one any good to say, okay, this is the topic. Let's just brainstorm. You got to have an interesting question prompt, you know, give it I have all sorts of frameworks and parameters I like to bring in to help people, winnow in on the brainstorming process. And one of those other sparks is bringing people from totally different departments to kind of gaze on the same problem that you're gazing on.

00:30:11:14 - 00:30:32:17
Speaker 2
I just think that's so magnificent, because, frankly, one of the things I'm most concerned about in any organization, mind, my clients, etc., is, breaking down silos, disrupting us versus them thinking, which, by the way, can also disrupt things like implicit bias. It can disrupt a whole bunch of files that you're running without being aware that it's like background files running on a computer.

00:30:32:19 - 00:30:49:20
Speaker 2
And the fact of like, coming together in that kind of way is very, very powerful. And I love the idea of a divergent thinking. I mean, let me go right to the question. It's an age old question, Natalie. It's a question you've heard a million times. So let's address it here. Is everyone creative and how do we even answer that question?

00:30:49:22 - 00:31:14:03
Speaker 3
My perspective is that everyone is creative, that to be human is to be hard wired, to be creative. The distinction comes in in terms of whether or not you are committing to the process of building your creative capacity. So even artists, professional artists, whatever their genre of art will admit, there are ebbs and flows in their creative capacity.

00:31:14:07 - 00:31:39:17
Speaker 3
There has to be a commitment. You know my words, my perspective is to wonder and rigor. So how do you spark the wonder? Wonder can happen by reading more fiction. Wonder can happen through travel. And I don't mean you need to invest a big budget and go on a plane and go to some far off place. I wrote an article for, the platform Chez Media about micro retreats and what you can do a walking retreat.

00:31:39:17 - 00:32:05:07
Speaker 3
You can go to a neighborhood in your town or city that you rarely go to, and be an anthropologist for the day. I recently spoke for Westfield Insurance in Cleveland, Ohio, and got there a day early and was able to visit an incredible art exhibit by believe. The artist name is Louise Maye, who died over 50,000 flowers, and it was an installation in the Grand Hall of the Cleveland Library.

00:32:05:08 - 00:32:28:14
Speaker 3
And it was an afternoon of awe and wonder. First of all, who would do something like that? And then my next question was, why not do something like that? It was just amazing. She gathered all these flowers from that, from the area. But so, so travel reading fiction, becoming a clumsy student of anything is also another way to spark wonder, become a conversation about these.

00:32:28:14 - 00:32:57:14
Speaker 3
Also way to spark rigor. And so rigor comes by, you know, stepping away from the churn of email, giving yourself dedicated, quiet time to focus. And I think designing space and time for that really matters. For rigor. I think it often helps if there's quiet, it helps if you're committed to repetition is there's some part of your world in your work that, you know, maybe it's like you commit to, you know, rigor can be scaled incrementally.

00:32:57:18 - 00:33:16:17
Speaker 3
Maybe it's, you know, I'll make sure I read one scholarly article a week that, for me, is rigorous, right? To really make sure I'm understanding the field of Xyzzy in a certain way. Maybe it's, you know, for me as a writer, it's making sure I get in 15 minutes of just brain dump getting the words out every single day.

00:33:16:17 - 00:33:30:14
Speaker 3
And sometimes I find that I have more to write. Sometimes I don't, I don't have the budget of time, but it's committing to that toggling between wonder and rigor that actually helps us to build that creative capacity.

00:33:30:15 - 00:33:56:17
Speaker 2
One of my partners here at Jans, Brian Hall, who's our president, is in our Chicago office. He's been talking a lot about continuous partial attention as a real challenge. For us as humans and as, productive workers, employees, colleagues, partners, and is also been cultivating an interest in meditation and and also how do you, how do you carve out that space to have a task?

00:33:56:17 - 00:34:18:19
Speaker 2
And I know that feeling, too, you know, as somebody who has to do a lot of, you know, strategic writing and start from a blank page and big picture thinking, it's really uncomfortable to sit yourself down and put the butt in the chair and to or to get out and think about it, but I, I personally really resonate with the idea of like, I think from my past, you know, maybe in college and such.

00:34:18:19 - 00:34:40:04
Speaker 2
I was like, I'll write it tonight before and it will be great. Right? And the the older you get, the more that I need to marinate and I see those processes of sleep or being with it and moving away from it and being back with it and moving away from it. So that iteration and repetition, sometimes going back over the first few slides over and over again or reworking them, then the rest of them come much faster.

00:34:40:04 - 00:34:44:17
Speaker 2
So I really resonate with some of those concepts that you're sharing.

00:34:44:19 - 00:34:48:23
Speaker 3
Well, what is that phrase? I love that continuing partial.

00:34:49:01 - 00:35:13:09
Speaker 2
Continuous partial partial attention. Yeah. It's been it's it's been discussed a lot in different names. But the idea that we're constantly being pulled away, every little thing, every little alert, every little social media post, the constant checking of emails, it's the interruption of flow. And, it's also the myth of multitasking. I think some brains multitask more fluidly than others.

00:35:13:09 - 00:35:35:03
Speaker 2
It's just talking about neurodivergent. So we're all quite different in cognitive diversity. But, there's something about when is it that you let the brain run more free? You know, that wonder piece and explore new things? And when is it that you need to bring it into some guardrails and some guidance? So I find that what is for you, the creativity leap?

00:35:35:03 - 00:35:40:19
Speaker 2
I know that you name the book that and it's probably many of the things you're talking about. What where did that title come from for you?

00:35:41:00 - 00:36:01:03
Speaker 3
It actually came from a brainstorming session with my editor at Barrett Koehler, where we were trying to figure out a way to capture the ideas in the book and the idea the CliffsNotes version of the book is that creativity is not a nice to have. It's a must have. Right. And I originally wanted to call the book The Creativity Gap.

00:36:01:04 - 00:36:33:16
Speaker 3
And Neil Millet, who was my editor, he's the VP of editorial at Barrett Color. He said, you know, he was kind of kindly and politely listening to me going on on about just, you know, spitballing and stuff. And he finally said, you know, I totally get what you mean by creativity gap, because my point was that there's this chasm that we need to bridge between, the uncertainty that we feel and then needing to engage in really experimental creative work and acts, especially now more than ever, he said.

00:36:33:16 - 00:36:53:08
Speaker 3
But my experience shows that a lot of time in publishing, when it when a book title has a negative word, it doesn't do as well. It's like really? He said, yeah, I think about the word gap. It kind of kind of something negative. So we kind of just went to our the. And by the way, my new favorite app ever is if you don't know, it is word Hippo.

00:36:53:10 - 00:37:17:02
Speaker 3
Love it because it's just an incredible app for that. The SA online thesaurus is brilliant. But we came, we landed on the leap, and the reason I ended up loving it is because, I mean, the first page of the book I talk about what is a leap, what's required to leap? It requires vision. It requires the need to identify some sort of barrier that you can't just walk around or step over.

00:37:17:07 - 00:37:48:16
Speaker 3
It requires this kinesthetic and energizing effort. And so the word leap is absolutely visual. And it really ties in to the effort that real commitment to creative work requires. The imagination, the vision, the, the, all of the activity that is so diverse that helps us to get not just from point A to B, from point A to X, right.

00:37:48:18 - 00:37:54:13
Speaker 3
And, you know, my background in dance also made me, have a lot of affinity for the word leap.

00:37:54:15 - 00:38:20:14
Speaker 2
I like it because it's so embodied that kinesthetic feeling, you know, that that you mentioned that the sense that it's like a whole body physical experience to do. So it's not just mental work, you know, how do we throw our you know, I'm I'm very much about I really am enthusiastic about so many things I love to learn and I, I really look for others who are want to embody things fully and bring their full self to it and all their energy to it.

00:38:20:14 - 00:38:38:07
Speaker 2
So I think that's a that's a wonderful title. Well, I've kept you a long time. I mean, as we you shared a little bit about this already, but for our listeners out there, you know, I always think of my audience as first and foremost my colleagues and then all my clients and others out there. Whoever might discover this, right.

00:38:38:09 - 00:39:01:08
Speaker 2
What are some of the things, and we talk about building brand gravity, which is about attracting, you know, stakeholders into an orbit of an idea or a brand or a person or a company. You know how how do you feel? We as individuals and organizations can cultivate creative practices that are more compelling for ourselves. You know, what are 1 or 2 final thoughts you'd leave with us as things for people to stew over?

00:39:01:09 - 00:39:24:18
Speaker 3
I think just to build on one of the last things you just said. And that is not a purely mental exercise. This idea of being of having interests, perception and perception, of being aware of where we are in space, of being where we are in our bodies. I'll just share a quick, fun fact from what I've learned about, for example, the vagus nerve, the vagus nerve is the longest cranial nerve in our body.

00:39:24:18 - 00:39:52:20
Speaker 3
It extends from the brain down to the heart and to the gut. And it's, there's something called intra ception that we all do. Interception is that inner awareness. I'm tired, I feel safe, I feel scared, I need to use the restroom, etc. and interception. That inner awareness is actually powered by the vagus nerve, this internal antenna. And since making and the vagus nerve is actually also attached to intuition.

00:39:52:20 - 00:40:28:15
Speaker 3
So when we think say things like my gut is telling me, it literally is because of the way, the vagus nerve is designed in our body. So, the fun fact I learned is that scientists have recently learned that something called inter receptive awareness, which they the experiment they did was to test people who were able to tap out their heartbeat, not by feeling the pulse in their wrist, but just by sitting still, hands on their lap and literally being able to discern their beating heart.

00:40:28:19 - 00:40:51:15
Speaker 3
They did it. For example, for a married couple, the woman could not do it. The husband was like, this is so easy, you can't do this. He was so aware of the beating of his heart. And the scientific research shows a direct connection between inter receptive awareness, all those little subtle quiet things that are happening internally, and rational cognition and rational decision making.

00:40:51:16 - 00:41:14:20
Speaker 3
And I love that this research study, because it shows that the connection between the intuitive and the rational and the cognitive is not it's not a fuzzy dotted line, and it's not woowoo. There's actually a direct connection between that self-awareness and tapping into that self-awareness and being able to have greater cognition and be better at strategic decision making.

00:41:14:23 - 00:41:46:10
Speaker 3
So how do we have might we get better at that? I'll go to something I referenced a few minutes ago was we should all engage in being clumsy students of anything. And and you know that for me, it's dance, it's hip hop dance, it's ballroom. When I am a clumsy student, I am full of so much wonder. And I have to commit to the rigor of knowing the dance steps, learning the choreography practice, making mistakes over and over and over, learning from my fellow students, learning from a range of teachers.

00:41:46:12 - 00:42:07:16
Speaker 3
I bring that new way of thinking, that confidence with asking questions and following my gut with being more experimental into the work at hand. So. So firing up those neural synapses as clumsy students in our past times absolutely will help us in the work at hand. That's a lot of what I'm I'm going to be talking about and writing about in my next book.

00:42:07:16 - 00:42:20:02
Speaker 3
It's it's absolutely that the, the, the work that we do when we step away from the desk, the activity, I should say that we do we step away from the desk is really essential for the actual output of productivity.

00:42:20:04 - 00:42:39:05
Speaker 2
I think that's amazing. That's a wonderful place to end, because I do think this resonates so much with the world we're living in today and some of the challenges that we're facing. So Natalie Nixon, figure eight thinking, I'm so glad you could join me today. It's always fun when we can connect. And I encourage folks, you know, follow us where you get your podcast, check us out.

00:42:39:05 - 00:42:42:17
Speaker 2
And I always welcome comments. So Natalie, thank you for being with us.

00:42:42:17 - 00:42:44:21
Speaker 3
Thank you. And this was awesome.

00:42:44:23 - 00:43:13:22
Speaker 1
We are gas business communications. We are a team of media strategists, storytellers and engagement experts who meet you at the intersection of business and communications. To learn more, visit GE's communications.com. You're listening to Building Brand Gravity Attracting People into Your Orbit, a business communications podcast. Keep connected with us by subscribing to the show in your favorite podcast player.

00:43:14:03 - 00:43:25:16
Speaker 1
If you like what you've heard, please rate the show that helps us to keep delivering the latest in industry influence. Thanks for listening. Until next time.

00:00:00:11 - 00:00:24:01
Speaker 2
Hi. Welcome to Building Brand Gravity. This is an Xn. I'm CEO of G and S Business Communications, and I'm very excited to be joined today by my partner Kate. Three wits, who is our Chief People officer. And also Margie Williams who is our VP of DNI and Client Service. Hi ladies. Welcome to Building Brand Cavity. Hi. Hello. Glad to be here.

00:00:24:03 - 00:00:47:18
Speaker 2
Excellent. So we've got a big topic today. You know, there is much debate and some of which I view as a very calculated and somewhat cynical, happening in our culture today regarding what's commonly known as D and I. But as with so many things in our society, and in marketing communications, more specifically, I think we make a big mistake if we get caught at the surface level.

00:00:47:20 - 00:01:08:05
Speaker 2
So there's a lot of concepts that are encompassed under the moniker of DNI, and they amount to more than an acronym, and they carry a lot of implications for organizations, ours and our clients, in every industry, every sector, in my opinion, they also carry a lot of impact for society as a whole. So there's a lot at stake here.

00:01:08:07 - 00:01:33:18
Speaker 2
And as communications counselors, I really feel that we need to push ourselves to be more thoughtful and precise about some of these concepts. So the focus of this podcast, as the folks who listen know, is the idea of brand gravity, which is what attracts individuals to or in some cases repels them from an idea, a brand, a product, an organization, or even another person.

00:01:33:20 - 00:01:55:03
Speaker 2
So today, I'm very excited for us to zoom in on the eye of DNI, which is inclusion. We want to peel back some of the layers here to explore what the word means, both internally at an organization, but also how that organization engages with and is perceived externally, which is a big part of the work we do for our clients.

00:01:55:05 - 00:02:21:15
Speaker 2
And I would say that the working hypothesis for this conversation, which we will explore, is, for ourselves as an organization, but also our clients. Is the concept of how inclusion has upsides for deepening connections with all stakeholders as well as deepening business impact. So I think, Kate Marjan, you are the perfect folks to join me for this conversation because we've been deeply engaged in this work for some time.

00:02:21:17 - 00:02:38:17
Speaker 2
And to get started, you know, let's talk about inclusion as one of these component parts of the acronym. What does inclusion actually really mean? Because it's such a buzzword right now. I don't know, Kate, if you want to be the first to kind of jump in and maybe Marjan, you can build on that.

00:02:38:19 - 00:03:27:12
Speaker 3
Sure. And, you know, there are a lot of definitions out there about what inclusion means. And if we look at how other agencies like McKinsey are defining inclusion, they refer to it as how the workforce experiences the workplace. And then the degree to which, employees are able to make meaningful contributions. And that definition certainly resonates with me, I would say, from a person early as head of GDS, people here at Janus, at, see it as inclusion being, creating that true sense of belonging while instilling that sense of safety.

00:03:27:14 - 00:03:59:08
Speaker 3
You know, we are human beings and we all have that basic need to feel safe. And safety can mean a lot of different things, right? It can mean big things, such as imminent, clear danger, but it can also mean, do I feel safe with my manager? Do I feel safe putting my voice in the room? Do I feel safe, taking confident risk and bringing great ideas, pushing back on our clients, to create better ideas and better outcomes?

00:03:59:10 - 00:04:32:14
Speaker 3
So, you know, I think the super power for an organization lies in bringing those two, components together. The sense of safety and that true, feeling of belonging, where dancers are able to come each and every day, perform the best work of their lives, and really create those moments of inclusion where growth can occur and we can unleash, potential.

00:04:32:16 - 00:04:52:12
Speaker 2
I think there's a lot of important stuff you've said in there, Kate, especially, you know, maybe we'll come back to this later. The implications when people don't feel safe to put their voice in the room, the kinds of issues that can come up, loss of ideas, lack of fresh thinking and also, lack of calling out ethical breaches or issues or identifying problems before they start.

00:04:52:12 - 00:05:15:22
Speaker 2
But Marni, what are you thinking about as you hear Kate reflect on the meaning of the word? I mean, I have to say, I love that we are starting here. There is of course, so much conversation and news happening about inclusive policies, but more broadly, the E and I and I think before we can even begin to unpack it, we have to actually figure out what the thing is, right?

00:05:16:00 - 00:05:46:07
Speaker 2
I mean, I stepped into this role as, VP of the night about a year ago, and I knew we had to be very crystal clear about exactly what we meant when we said diversity, inclusion, equity. Because there's still a lot of confusion, I think, among folks who are unclear about the difference between equity and equality or like, what real inclusion looks like, and not just, you know, some of the performative things that we're we're seeing move around, especially after 2020.

00:05:46:09 - 00:06:08:10
Speaker 2
But it's important for us to really be clear about the definition so we can actually change the dialog. Right. So the work that we're doing here at GDS is really about everybody here within our workforce. It's not necessarily, you know, trying to pick out one person or the other or one particular group or the other.

00:06:08:11 - 00:06:27:19
Speaker 2
We're trying to build policies and a culture that is going to benefit everybody. That's the ultimate goal. And I think that's what real inclusion looks like. Very plain and simple. It's allowing space for that safety that Kate mentioned, but allowing people to really bring I know it sounds a little trite, but bring their whole health to work as much as they feel comfortable.

00:06:28:00 - 00:06:53:03
Speaker 2
But we are creating that space, and giving folks the option to, to, to pull up as they are. Yeah. It's an interesting thing to reflect on that phrase, bring your whole self to work, because there's such an amazing aspirational element to it. But we also recognize people may not want to. They don't have to bring everything, but to allow the choice that they feel they can is a very, very interesting way of digging into it.

00:06:53:03 - 00:07:17:09
Speaker 2
But to to dig in a bit more, because I love everything you're both starting to lay out in the table here for this conversation. How does or how should inclusion actually show up in an organization? Where are the places where you could feel it's absent versus where are the places? Because I, I think the three of us have talked about this a lot, and we've talked about it with our executive team, our our task force on DNI.

00:07:17:11 - 00:07:34:11
Speaker 2
It's the specificity, like you said, marginality that really helps people grab on to this. Some of these concepts are really big and lofty, but you kind of have to bring it to the ground level of what does this feel like, see look like? So where is inclusion showing up or not showing up in an organization? Give me some examples.

00:07:34:12 - 00:08:03:19
Speaker 3
Yeah. I mean, you know, when I started in this role over 25 years ago, and my HR role inclusion was just beginning to be part of the conversation, in organizations. And it wasn't, a clear, business critical priority for most organizations at that time. And to be honest, it felt like a real check the box moment.

00:08:03:21 - 00:08:36:13
Speaker 3
You know, and that may have shown up in, in, annual trainings for unconscious bias, but no real plan to apply that within the organization. Today we we see inclusion showing up much different. And it's woven into the very tapestry of who we are, as an organization. And, you know, that shows up in the way that we value individual contributions and we value individual strengths.

00:08:36:15 - 00:09:17:22
Speaker 3
It shows up in the way that we're amplifying voices at every level, and, and creating those moments of great storytelling where feel empowered to share not only those things that we have in common, but to share experiences that make them unique. And, you know, Amani mentioned, equity over equality. And I think it's important, you know, on this journey that we're on, that we do, you know, understand equality, but that we have a focus on equity where we're meeting individuals, where they are.

00:09:18:00 - 00:09:50:12
Speaker 3
I think that's a huge shift for organizations, and critical to creating an inclusive environment. And then finally, I would say, the, way that we build trust with each other and the, increase, in, in transparent and clear communications. I mean, that's really been foundational, to our success and, and being able to create a more inclusive environment.

00:09:50:14 - 00:10:15:10
Speaker 2
Yeah. It feels like trust is the foundation of everything. I mean, that's something that has been a mantra for me. From a business perspective, whether you're client side, corporate side, whatever organization, nonprofit, for profit, large, small, you know, a lack of trust creates friction, it creates mistrust, it creates closed doors and spinning and confusion and gaslighting and just seeing what's happening here, it kind of squashes ideas.

00:10:15:10 - 00:10:34:05
Speaker 2
It stops people from just feeling excited and collaborative with each other. It makes them feel they have to be territorial or protective or I just feel like it waste a lot of time and energy and human humanness in the organization. So I think this idea of trust and what it and it's a big discussion in this world. It's a low trust environment right now.

00:10:34:09 - 00:10:56:05
Speaker 2
And it's going to be, especially with advances in AI and media and disinformation and misinformation, it's going to it's going to be interesting. But that that kind of question of how these things are interconnected, it's not just this thing happens over here. It's like trust. It's woven through everything. One of the, you know, you talked about starting your career about 25 years ago.

00:10:56:05 - 00:11:14:03
Speaker 2
I'm just a little ahead of you, Kate. 30 years and I in the corporate world on the agency side and, you know, marginally. I'd like to tee this one up for you. I I've heard these concepts talked about like the term diversity for many, many, many years for so long to me. And I don't think I'm the only one.

00:11:14:03 - 00:11:33:09
Speaker 2
It boiled down to numbers. What are the numbers of diverse humans? Whatever you wanted to define in an organization. Right. And so that seems to me to still be at the crux of some of the battles, like who is where and who's allowed where and what are the numbers. And I think you're right in the performative stuff, especially if you're 2020 is a bit like that now.

00:11:33:11 - 00:11:55:00
Speaker 2
I think representation matters tremendously, and I would never discount that the piece of diversity, this representation, but marginally, what do you think about that in terms of how DNI, especially inclusion or these larger terms are either understood or misunderstood today because I think we're still, we're more advanced, but not entirely. Yeah, I that's such a great point.

00:11:55:00 - 00:12:18:02
Speaker 2
And I mean, the truth is that, as you mentioned, diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, they're all very interconnected. We you know, we have to take a holistic approach when we're talking about these concepts because we're looking at a whole human being and not just one part of them. So it's not just what you look like or what you believe or your gender identity.

00:12:18:04 - 00:12:42:10
Speaker 2
It is all of you. And so, I mean, we see a lot of organizations, maybe consciously or unconsciously, falling into box checking so that they can try to either, you know, capture as much of that as they can. But in all honesty, I think DNI is being reduced and misunderstood in a way that's making it easier for people to lean into just the numbers.

00:12:42:12 - 00:13:09:05
Speaker 2
Things are moving fast. Markets have been very unstable, and folks are really looking for, quite frankly, a low cost way to do it. And, and that time investment, the financial investment, you know, the, the, the just the entire investment of an organization in DNI or ADP, however they want to call it. It's going to require an all hands on deck approach.

00:13:09:05 - 00:13:32:09
Speaker 2
And so I really appreciate what we do here at GDS. And, you know, this journey had already started before I got here with, I think differently together teams and just our value of went together. But really looking at, you know, a way that we can make it real for employees and make it feel like, something that is a part of the entire G and S experience.

00:13:32:09 - 00:13:56:05
Speaker 2
And so when you look at the interconnectedness of just all of these principles and the way that we are, defining our approach, I think a great point that we're making this year is a focus on intersectionality. When we look at the many different identities that make up one person, all of us, you know, that makes us unique.

00:13:56:07 - 00:14:18:01
Speaker 2
It's really getting at how we take a holistic approach to, I won't say treating, but to, to experiencing a whole person and having the, the room and the space in the room for that whole person to show up. So, I think I could go on and on about that, but I love the idea of us going together.

00:14:18:01 - 00:14:46:02
Speaker 2
They say, if you want to go far, you know, go together. So I appreciate that about our approach. But just for, you know, one thing that you both have been saying that I think I've been considering relative to us both as an organization as well as a counselor to our clients across many, many industry is health care, manufacturing, agriculture, financial services, real estate, etc. is that these concepts are additive.

00:14:46:04 - 00:15:17:18
Speaker 2
They're not blocking, I think a lot of it is kind of tips right now, especially given the cultural context and the kind of battles going on into sort of a negative, as in, what are you taking away from you? What are you stealing from me or what is being prevented? Versus I think flipping the script and this is counsel I would strongly provide to our clients to how do we flip the script and look at this as an additive way, as in that that more holistic view and, you know, and that actually leads me to the question of what is the bottom line business benefit, right.

00:15:17:18 - 00:15:38:06
Speaker 2
Because we're in, in the world of business and counseling other businesses. And, and for me, that's a very holistic thing that goes beyond just dollars and cents. But to the whole human community that needs to be created within organizations. But what is the benefit? And one thing that was interesting is that, you know, there's been some skirmishes online lately between various billionaires talking about these topics.

00:15:38:06 - 00:15:57:10
Speaker 2
And bless those billionaires out there talking about them. But Mark Cuban, one of them, noted entrepreneur, in responding to, you know, one of the strong voices in this area, Elon Musk, who's a complex figure. I've a lot of respect for in some ways and, you know, find him, you know, troubling in others. But, you know, again, I can hold multiple things in my head.

00:15:57:10 - 00:16:19:00
Speaker 2
I think Mark was talking about from his perspective, his thoughts on GE and I. And I'll just read some of his, his, tweet his ex on this, good businesses look where others don't find employees that'll put your business in the best possible position to succeed. People of various races, ethnicities, orientation that are regularly excluded or have been from hiring.

00:16:19:00 - 00:16:35:19
Speaker 2
You know, he feels by hiring them, we can find more qualified people. And he said, you know, we live in a country with diverse demographics and an area where trust in businesses is hard to come by. People tend to connect more easily with people who are like them, and having a workforce, it's diverse and representative of your stakeholders is good for business.

00:16:35:19 - 00:16:53:06
Speaker 2
So I was I would say that we're likely in his camp, but clearly he sees a competitive advantage to attracting, retaining diverse and talent and ensuring they feel empowered. So either of you jump in, what's your take on Mark's stance? Which which pieces of that POV resonate with you relative to what we're trying to do here?

00:16:53:07 - 00:17:21:14
Speaker 3
Yeah, I mean, I agree that it is, wholeheartedly that it's a, business, advantage for us. And, I do think that those that are backing off the NRA and their efforts in this moment are going to be left behind. So I agree with him there. I don't think, in my opinion, that this is the time for us to take our foot off the gas.

00:17:21:16 - 00:17:51:23
Speaker 3
We started this journey and committed to this journey because we felt at our core that it was the right thing to do for our people, for our clients, and for the agency as a whole. And, you know, the fact is, is the marketplace, and the labor market, will not become less complex if anything is going to become more complex and more competitive.

00:17:52:01 - 00:18:44:23
Speaker 3
And if we are going to serve a diverse marketplace, then we have got to continue our journey and and continue our commitment. You know, it's critical to our long term success and growth as an agency. And so, you know, I, I really feel that it is a mistake, you know, to, to back off, of this commitment and so, proud that we are continuing down, you know, down the road, down the journey and, you know, holding tight to what we believe, you know, and, and embracing diversity is, our core value.

00:18:45:01 - 00:18:47:10
Speaker 3
And I think we're staying true to that.

00:18:47:12 - 00:19:15:02
Speaker 2
Yeah, we have much, you had a really great point, Kate, about just our journey and and, like, what it's going to look like maybe. I mean, this year, even we don't know with the way that the the labor market is moving. But even beyond that, I think it's really important to know the human impact. We have generation Z and like even millennials, I fall within that category.

00:19:15:02 - 00:19:45:18
Speaker 2
But, there is a lot of, there's a lot of fight in, in Gen Z, and they're not afraid to challenge, you know, organizations and companies based on their beliefs. And they will make very, very concrete decisions and, based on their belief system. So they may not come and work for you if they don't agree with, you know, the morality of your company or if they deem you to be an at the core, they don't feel safe there.

00:19:45:18 - 00:20:10:12
Speaker 2
I mean, folks have options. And, you know, I have a lot of respect for, just that kind of, of mindset. But I do think bringing it back to the business case, we're seeing very clear evidence. You mentioned McKinsey earlier, Kate, that they released their Diversity Matters even More report. And there were some findings there that really spoke to what we're we're talking about with the business case.

00:20:10:12 - 00:20:40:15
Speaker 2
I mean, about 30%, companies or companies that were within the 30th percentile who are really focused on D and, they're performing way better than the folks who are not. And so we're seeing that it has an impact on the bottom line, but it's also going to have a very, clear impact on, you know, the workforce and how folks are able to recruit the top talent, because we're not just talking about you know, this vast talent pool like we're watching as the talent pool changes.

00:20:40:15 - 00:21:17:09
Speaker 2
And so if they want top talent, they're going to have to show up on behalf of their workforce. Yeah. It's interesting you you talked about the generations. I reflect a lot on the fact that we have four generations in the workforce right now actively, and we have a fist coming up real soon. I forget what the cutoff is going to be between Gen Z and the next generation, but, boomers, I'm an Xer, millennials, Gen Z, and to me, the the bottom line business piece in terms of creating a healthy, thoughtful organizational community that can really perform at an elite level and whatever work you're doing, whether you're, again, the client side, one of our

00:21:17:09 - 00:21:41:17
Speaker 2
clients, or whether you're an agency serving those entities. One of the things that to me that's interesting about inclusion is where it dovetails with the idea of just being better managers and better in a corporate and human community, more elite. We are communicators, right? We're marketing integrated marketing communications, which means we are required and expected to be elite communicators.

00:21:41:19 - 00:22:14:12
Speaker 2
But oftentimes there's so much of working on cross between people across all kinds of difference could be generational. It could be racial, it could be background, could be anything, just life experience that gets in the way, that creates friction, that creates misunderstanding, that prevents people from doing their best work, prevents voices, as we said, from being put in the room, prevents people from bringing fresh thinking, which is, again, if my mandate is CEO of the agency, is to assure that we are a super high functioning team for our clients, elite communicators and also super high functioning internally.

00:22:14:13 - 00:22:37:02
Speaker 2
You know, we often joke about doctor, heal thyself or shoemaker's children. You know, I don't want to be a situation where we're providing counsel to our clients. And yet internally, our internal communications are just having breakdowns. But the other thing I reflect on, too, in terms of this inclusion, where does inclusion lie in? This is, you know, Harvard Business Review makes a lot of money every year I'm a subscriber.

00:22:37:02 - 00:23:14:06
Speaker 2
And 90% of that, that whole situation, including, the university itself and the business school is good management. Right. So one of my big things, and I know that you're both on it is, is how do we connect the dots to say it's all a tapestry and DNI or inclusion? It's not something that's happening over here that it's really about knitting it together with all the manager training we're doing and employee engagement surveys and client satisfaction surveys and the quality of work we do and our ability to win and retain business, this stuff is all connected because it's about that level of communications.

00:23:14:06 - 00:23:39:13
Speaker 2
And that really brings me to get more specific about a concept we're trying to advance this year, which is this inclusive leadership campaign or tools or program initiative to land that concept in, embedded in how we manage people and how. So I'd love for one of you to talk about what we're doing in 2024, specifically to try to make this really real for folks and give them actual tools to use.

00:23:39:15 - 00:24:05:16
Speaker 2
Okay, I can jump in here just at the end of last year and our task force, and shout out to Kate and, and the Policies and Practices team. But, that team worked really hard to bring, this new inclusive leadership campaign and some very specific inclusive feedback guidance for managers to the agency. And so we're going to take a phased approach so that we're working our way through.

00:24:05:17 - 00:24:31:19
Speaker 2
We're not just going to drop this from people, but really helping people to absorb the information, and understand what these basic principles are, really help make sure that folks understand how bias creeps in and how it shows up in different conversations, whether it is something that is just flat out, you know, bias related act that is, you know, something we have to address that they air or it could be microaggressions.

00:24:31:19 - 00:24:51:22
Speaker 2
I mean, we hear folks talk about microaggressions, and I've even seen some websites where people are just having to question, like, how is this a microaggression? And sometimes it can make you think that you're not seeing what you're seeing or you're not hearing what you're hearing. And so we want to just put it all out for our workforce so everybody understands.

00:24:52:00 - 00:25:17:05
Speaker 2
You know what these things look like, how they show up, and also how to interrupt them. Taking it a step further from just the education, but to the actual action. And so we're excited about the campaign. The guidance is out. And it's something that we're going to be excited to explore the further, you know, the duration of this year and beyond, as we talk about more implications for our clients and how we deal with those relationships, too.

00:25:17:07 - 00:25:24:09
Speaker 2
What are the parts you're most excited about with this Kate like and some specifics about tools? You're going to try to give the managers, especially.

00:25:24:11 - 00:26:06:08
Speaker 3
You know, one of the things and, you know, you mentioned application mardaani and that is huge. I mean, it's it's not just about giving our managers these lofty, you know, you know, goals and, and, describing inclusive feedback, in a way that, that they can understand. But how can they take these concepts and apply them. And I think that this campaign, we've really been able to drill down, into giving those real life application concepts that they can apply to the day to day with their team.

00:26:06:10 - 00:26:51:09
Speaker 3
You know, the big thing about inclusive feedback is it's not separate or standalone from any good management practice. You know, it has to go hand in hand. Inclusive feedback is embedded in effective feedback concepts. But what influence what inclusive feedback does do is take that one step further to alert the manager to the power dynamics at play, to the potential biases that can be in play, and give them that opportunity as they're creating their feedback to check and mitigate those biases.

00:26:51:11 - 00:27:37:06
Speaker 3
And to check the power dynamics so that as they're framing the frame, the the feedback for employees, employees are really able to have a clear understanding of how to take the feedback and turn it into actionable development steps. So I think that the thing that I'm most excited about with this campaign is the application piece and the level of accountability that we're going to hold our managers to, to create these inclusive environments for their employees and safe spaces as well as, you know, continuing to foster the inclusive culture that we're creating here at TNS.

00:27:37:08 - 00:27:59:08
Speaker 2
Yeah, and to two things. One, people tend to get hung up sometimes on the idea of biases, like checking the biases. But there's another concept I'd use called files. Like we put we have files on things like I have files on, you know, coming, you know, commuting or I have files on, you know, my history of my family or I have files on, you know, an experience I had.

00:27:59:08 - 00:28:19:05
Speaker 2
And those files become something that's like a script running in the background of your computer. You're not even aware of it. And so it can be a bias issue or can be just like assumptions you have about someone or a relationship you had before. And one of the really important things that I think is to connect the dots here and to, to to see it on a bigger scale.

00:28:19:07 - 00:28:33:03
Speaker 2
So that checking your biases can also mean like just being aware of the files you've created, like, oh, there's a whole file on this in my brain. I didn't even know I had a file on this. Like, maybe I should look in that file. Maybe the file is out of date. And that's about that connects with being mindful too.

00:28:33:03 - 00:29:01:17
Speaker 2
And the other thing that I think is really critical to what you're both saying in terms of practical application, is that over my, you know, years and years of being in management, too. And I've done this myself, I often see people kind of struggling, managing another person. You know, it doesn't have to be some big situation. It could be something that just they're worried about their performance and that person as a manager, they're just kind of caught in the fact that this person has a performance issue and they're like, it's a performance issue.

00:29:01:17 - 00:29:18:12
Speaker 2
It's a performance issue that they can't fully articulate what the deal is. Oftentimes there's something else mixed up in there, and we can get on our high horse about like it's their performance. It's like maybe it's how you guys are communicating. Maybe they're looking at you, blinking at you because they don't know how to speak to you or you're not.

00:29:18:15 - 00:29:38:04
Speaker 2
You're not asking them a question or you're making an assumption and maybe you're walking in the room. You know, I had a client years ago that that it was a management consulting client that advised before a difficult meeting, ask yourself who is showing up. And when you say to yourself about that person showing up at the script, you're running in your head is really negative, like they're a problem performer there, a problem there.

00:29:38:04 - 00:29:58:20
Speaker 2
This versus maybe you flip the script and say, hey, they're really lovely person. They're young in their career. They may not know, like how you go into a meeting really influences the vibe you give off and the effectiveness. So I'm I love peeling back the layers here to try to think about just being better managers, being better in community.

00:29:58:20 - 00:30:19:10
Speaker 2
But to switch gears a minute, Marjan, you like when you hear this, your role as both DNI, VP, which is both internal but also external in terms of how we work with community and marketplace clients. But also you're a client, counselor and and client service professional. How do you see what we're doing around inclusion relative to the kind of counsel we give to clients?

00:30:19:10 - 00:30:51:17
Speaker 2
Because I see this is very permeable inside. Outside to me is very aligned. Yeah. I mean, I've had the benefit of working, a few different, places in industries in my career. I mean, majority of my background is in government. Here in Chicago. But then I've also worked in nonprofit and I've worked in operations, but public health and I think health care is really a great example of how that sort of community comes into play.

00:30:51:17 - 00:31:13:03
Speaker 2
And so when we look at the way that, you know, health care, you know, professionals are working and if they're getting what they need from their employer, if they have the mental health resources, if they have, you know, policies that feel equitable and they're able to show up, that is a very direct impact to the patients in those settings.

00:31:13:03 - 00:31:45:15
Speaker 2
And so to turn it back to GAF, I mean, we look at the way that we interact with our internal workforce, but those folks are then going off and working with our clients. They're representatives of our organization as well as us. I mean, we're in rooms where it can be pretty sticky sometimes, but we're honing these skills on a daily basis and we're able to really, kind of undo those files, as you mentioned, but dig deeper into empathy, where we need to dig deeper into, you know, very nuanced counsel.

00:31:45:21 - 00:32:19:21
Speaker 2
I mean, we've had to jump in and counsel some of our clients on internal, you know, communication and pretty frequently, just based on how, you know, they'd like to see their community, their, their culture shift, but also the way that they are being received and experiencing the community that they're serving as well. So I think there's a ton of overlap in, you know, the way that we are operating to kind of get our own workforce up to speed and keep our business progressing, but also the benefit directly to our clients and then the consumers that they are potentially working with.

00:32:19:23 - 00:32:37:02
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's always amazing. It's certainly been for my career to kind of have that double consciousness of, how are we trying to build a culture and community and a business in the best way forward? You know, I'm very, as you guys know, like nail the basics, run the business with excellence, all that, but also the human side and then how we carry that into our counsel for clients.

00:32:37:02 - 00:33:07:07
Speaker 2
So that inclusion piece, how people are seen, how they show up, the trust, how they're heard. I agree, Marshawn, you know, in health care, specifically in the work I've done over the years, I've seen a lot of studies that show that the satisfaction of the health care workforce is highly correlated to the satisfaction of patients, which has become more and more important now in terms of CMS policies and how provider organizations, an area we work in, you know, are being judged for that, for satisfaction and for all the ways in which they interact with their communities they serve.

00:33:07:07 - 00:33:27:15
Speaker 2
So this has been an amazing conversation. I hate to bring it to a close, but there's, we have to we have to come to an end. So before before we close, I'd love to hear one piece of advice from each of you about again, going back to the the core of this podcast, building brand gravity that sense of attraction.

00:33:27:16 - 00:33:37:18
Speaker 2
You know, what's one last piece of advice around inclusion to help organizations attract people to their brands? Both internally and also externally with their stakeholders?

00:33:37:20 - 00:34:18:23
Speaker 3
Yeah. Internally. You know, our goal is to continue to attract and retain top talent and Marjan mentioned earlier about the multi generations that are coming into the workforce, and they are demanding to work for companies and organizations that align with their values. And we have to be ready to meet their expectations, and create those spaces, that, that where they feel, again, safe and that sense of belonging.

00:34:19:01 - 00:34:55:14
Speaker 3
And so for, for me creating that inclusion and, you know, that inclusive culture, is, is mission critical if we're going to remain competitive and able to bring top talent into our organization and more importantly, keep them in our organization, you know, we have to continue to focus on on inclusion. It's just critical to our long term growth and success as an agency.

00:34:55:16 - 00:35:20:21
Speaker 2
That's great. Marshawn, you what? You're a piece of advice. I would say the biggest takeaway from this conversation that I would love for folks to walk away with is that inclusion is really about our humanity. We can't afford to get distracted by the jargon or you know, how folks are politicizing issues. At the end of the day, you know, we're doing this for the real impact and for the humanity in us all.

00:35:20:23 - 00:35:50:08
Speaker 2
So we've all got space to grow. It is not going to happen overnight. The end AI is not a new concept. There are folks who've been pushing and really driving this train for years. And so, I'm excited to be a part of the effort to keep it moving. And I agree, Kate, we can't afford to take our foot off the gas because we owe it to ourselves for, you know, better workforce, for a better environment just moving forward and for those future generations.

00:35:50:10 - 00:36:24:16
Speaker 2
That's awesome. And as host, I'm also going to give a piece of advice. So mine is just to encourage folks who are listening to push themselves to think more expansively about these categories and topics and to see the interconnection. So again, it's not just inclusion for inclusion sake. It's inclusion to be stronger business, stronger managers, you know, see those interconnections and and try to avoid getting caught up in sort of what I think is a lot of reductive arguments today that are actually very counter productive in the business world as well as in a broader societal lens.

00:36:24:16 - 00:36:43:12
Speaker 2
So we'll leave our listeners to chew on that. As always, we welcome feedback, comments. You can find all of our emails, find us on LinkedIn, find us wherever we are. Send us your thoughts. And I want to thank Kate. Three Wits and Annie Williams for joining me. This has been building brand gravity and we will be back with another episode soon.

00:36:43:12 - 00:36:44:17
Speaker 2
Thank you very much.

00:36:44:18 - 00:36:46:09
Speaker 3
Thank you and thank you.

00:36:46:09 - 00:36:47:20
Speaker 2
And thank you Ken.

00:36:47:22 - 00:36:49:07
Speaker 3
Yes, you too much.

00:36:49:09 - 00:37:18:08
Speaker 1
We are gas business communications. We are a team of media strategists, storytellers and engagement experts who meet you at the intersection of business and communications. To learn more, visit Gas communications.com. You're listening to Building brand Gravity, attracting people into your orbit. A gas business communications podcast. Keep connected with us by subscribing to the show in your favorite podcast player.

00:37:18:13 - 00:37:30:07
Speaker 1
If you like what you've heard, please rate the show that helps us to keep delivering the latest in industry influence. Thanks for listening. Until next time.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:27:06
Speaker 1
Hello building brand gravity listeners. In today's special episode, we're actually going to revisit our December discussion on the year in AI for 2023, the year that truly showcased the rapid evolution and impact of artificial intelligence in various spheres. If you recall, last December, we marveled at the accelerating pace of AI advancements, a trend that continues to shape our digital and real world interactions profoundly.

00:00:27:07 - 00:00:53:10
Speaker 1
In fact, cloud key takeaway was that creativity need not be stifled by AI. Rather, it can be augmented as we move further into 2024. This blend of human ingenuity and artificial intelligence has only grown more seamless, opening new avenues for creative problem solving across industries. We also discussed the role of generative AI as a tool for enhancing human interactions, particularly in challenging scenarios such as compensation negotiation.

00:00:53:12 - 00:01:16:12
Speaker 1
This application remains incredibly relevant as more professionals adapt to AI to simulate and prepare for important conversations, and in the realm of communications and public relations, our wheelhouse, of course, AI's capacity for data analysis and insight generation was a hot topic in this area, seeing substantial growth, demonstrating AI's potential to link communication efforts directly to strategic business outcomes.

00:01:16:14 - 00:01:43:18
Speaker 1
A trend that continues to gain momentum. A few other exciting developments from the AI frontier that came online since our last conversation. One that I'm really excited about. Multimodal AI, has taken a significant leap forward, becoming now more viable and integrated with consumer products. Look no further than the meta and Ray-Ban sunglasses that have just, seen their first upgrade integrating multimodal AI into their software.

00:01:43:20 - 00:02:09:10
Speaker 1
Our creative professionals have access now to saw AI, which is a video AI platform. So now it's emerged as a groundbreaking tool for videographers and motion designers, which enhance how they, at least they claim in part stories light. And lastly, this is a newer one. But the eraser platform is now revolutionizing the way software developers and UX of our peers are mapping our customer journeys, making it simpler, more intuitive.

00:02:09:12 - 00:02:29:17
Speaker 1
We'll see if that actually comes to bear time. And so as we look ahead, the landscape that they AI remains dynamic, ever evolving. And although this conversation that you're about to listen to happened in December, I really think that everything said here still feels relevant and prescient now. I hope you enjoy with.

00:02:29:19 - 00:02:58:15
Speaker 2
You are listening to building brand Gravity, attracting people into your orbit. A business communications podcast. This is a show for communications pros across industries looking to gain an inside view into industry influence. You're about to hear a conversation with leading industry professionals talking about the importance of building business impact through sound brand strategy. Let's get into the show.

00:02:58:17 - 00:03:19:05
Speaker 3
Hey, everybody. Welcome to Building Brand Gravity. My name is Anne Green. I'm a principal and managing director here at CNS Business Communications and soon to be CEO here at the agency. And I am very excited to be curating a conversation with the wonderful Kyle Turner, who is our digital growth director. Kyle, welcome.

00:03:19:11 - 00:03:21:10
Speaker 1
Hello. Hello. Glad to be here.

00:03:21:12 - 00:03:28:11
Speaker 3
Hello. Hello. So, Kyle, we're here to talk about the year in generative AI. It has been a year.

00:03:28:14 - 00:03:29:05
Speaker 1
It has.

00:03:29:06 - 00:04:02:07
Speaker 3
And I would say it feels like a hundred years since the moniker chat GPT first exploded into our consciousness. Just last November 2020. Now, kudos to those who already knew all about it long before. I know you're out there. But for most of society, it was last November, and it's kind of amazing to live through a moment, when a new tech utterly captures all aspects of our imagination and really simultaneously shifts conversations everywhere in business, world, tech, world, academia.

00:04:02:07 - 00:04:23:12
Speaker 3
And also, like your mom is asking you about it. So, you know, Kyle, I'm sure you're having lots of conversations with family members too. And as we close out 2023 and the reason we wanted to talk today is the big question for me is, as longtime integrated marketing communications practitioner and a counselor and an organizational leader, where are we now and then?

00:04:23:12 - 00:04:47:15
Speaker 3
Where is this going and how fast? So I would venture to guess that there's about 16 million podcasts of this kind looking at Chennai at the end of the year, and Kyle and I do not have the energy nor the time to recap every advance that's happened in generative AI in 2023. But I think our goal today is to like take one another's temperature on where AI is now.

00:04:47:17 - 00:05:07:11
Speaker 3
The big advances run down how our industry, integrated marketing, communications and all of its forms has started to learn and adapt and incorporate it and and talk a little bit about what we see, what's coming for the year ahead, including, I think, Kyle, you said what is best and what is not best. So does that sound good to you, Kyle?

00:05:07:13 - 00:05:09:18
Speaker 1
I'm excited to get into that for sure.

00:05:09:19 - 00:05:24:06
Speaker 3
Yeah, exactly. So just to start it off, Kyle, first question for you. What's one of the big technological advances in Chennai from 2023 that really made you stop in your tracks or get interested?

00:05:24:08 - 00:05:45:17
Speaker 1
Yeah, I, I've been seen a lot, in this space as as I'm sure you have. To me, what stopped me in my tracks, I saw earlier this year cycle of one of my one of our colleagues here, a an AI model was used to spot pancreatic cancer and high risk individuals up to three years before diagnosis.

00:05:45:19 - 00:06:08:03
Speaker 1
Now, this follows, a similar story I saw maybe about four years ago of an AI model using, being used to, to spot, brain cancer using blood samples. So what does that say to me? It's we're we're at the precipice of, I think, some really interesting and life changing and in some ways, probably life affirming ways.

00:06:08:05 - 00:06:34:07
Speaker 1
That I think I can start to change the way that we do medicine. This kind of predictive stuff, which we'll probably get into later a few times, is where I find the most excitement. I think as a cancer survivor, especially, you could make the argument that despite the research and the dollars that have been poured into the cancer spaces, we're only now maybe less like 4 or 5 years, starting to see some real sea change in the way that cancer is treated, diagnosed.

00:06:34:09 - 00:06:46:04
Speaker 1
And I think I represent, just yet another way that we can get to diagnoses faster and hopefully give more people a chance to to live a life that they want.

00:06:46:06 - 00:07:12:16
Speaker 3
Yeah, it's interesting you said that because having had former clients working in the cancer space like Memorial Sloan Kettering, there was so much talk about IBM Watson in the early days and maybe overhype of what its capabilities would be in the cancer space and when it didn't immediately deliver on the dream that, you know, where we saw out there, there was almost like this huge skepticism and to say, oh, look, it's overhyped.

00:07:12:16 - 00:07:34:13
Speaker 3
It doesn't work. Meanwhile, I think the truer thing was those are some of the early tests and learnings. Very early of AI in that space. Obviously IBM has Watson X now. They're very advanced in this area. But it's it is interesting to see now. And we've you and I have been around long enough. I certainly have to see a lot of tech cycles.

00:07:34:15 - 00:07:53:08
Speaker 3
There's stuff that in the early blushes is not going to fully make it. And people kind of say, but then it's, it's cooking along the whole way. So I think that's an exciting one. I mean, I think for me, the thing that blew me away this year is not maybe any one advance. It's just the speed of it all.

00:07:53:10 - 00:08:26:01
Speaker 3
And how listening to even deep experts, who have been in the development realm of AI for many years, talk about how much exponentially faster this is coming now than they had seen before. And also just, it is, as I said earlier, really wild to be both a human being and a professional around and awake and alert and mindful when the lightning bolt hits and everybody says, I don't know what to make of this, but it feels so different and powerful.

00:08:26:01 - 00:08:45:22
Speaker 3
So I think I think that's a really, really, really big one. You know, in terms of so we talked about sort of the big picture like, what's that thing that really stopped us in our tracks. But there's a lot of milestones and breakthroughs happening that have started to certainly affect our industry. You know, I'll start on that one.

00:08:45:22 - 00:09:08:21
Speaker 3
For me, it's watching. I baked in everywhere, you know, very, very quickly. We went from the large language models, you know, and OpenAI made a very deliberate decision to release that to the public. And it's actually really interesting to see the coverage behind the scenes after that whole insanity. That's kind of getting more into how the soup was made there and why OpenAI decided to release ChatGPT when it did.

00:09:08:23 - 00:09:25:20
Speaker 3
But we knew very early on that it needed to be baked into enterprise products that were already using. And the speed with which that's happening has been really, really striking me. What has struck you on some of that front in terms of actual milestones and things being released this year? You know.

00:09:25:22 - 00:09:48:07
Speaker 1
When you said that the speed is is striking you? I wanted to ask, why you were surprised about that, and I only ask because of this. I remember reading long ago when I used to work in media planning and buying. I saw a chart. I'm sure you've seen it too. That shows the speed at which different technological advancements hit 1 million users.

00:09:48:09 - 00:10:13:06
Speaker 1
I think by the time you get to Facebook, that happened in like a week, you know, starting with like radio, which took, you know, five, ten years. You know, Moore's Law, isn't it? Is it Moore's law that dictates like change accelerates with change? I think I've been I've been on this, this boat in for so long. I've been waiting for, to see the practical uses of generative AI.

00:10:13:08 - 00:10:48:07
Speaker 1
And I guess that's what's, exciting me the most. You know, you say, striking to. I am starting to be a lot more interested or a lot less interested. I start there with the projections of what I could be way more interested with the like, practical day to day uses of it. Now, I've told you this, the more that I use platforms like Dall-E or GPT four or cloud or whatever it is, the more creative ways I think of using it, and I think that also speaks to the ways that journey is changing right now.

00:10:48:07 - 00:11:19:01
Speaker 1
To your point about speed, I think since Sam, especially since like somebody like Sam Altman has been kind of empowered, by, the staff at OpenAI, I, I only think that I mean, it's going to continue to accelerate at this point. And we're going to have to get smarter, much faster about the ways in which we protect our ethics when using this stuff, because it's it's, I think the practical uses are going to expand just as financially as the technology itself is.

00:11:19:03 - 00:11:38:21
Speaker 3
Yeah. You're so right. And I think you're right to, to ask me that question and like, why I should be surprised at how fast things develop. The curve, like if I think about one of the last seismic shifts, which is really the, the right to web, the meaning WordPress, Typepad, I don't need to code the web is open to me.

00:11:38:23 - 00:12:19:13
Speaker 3
Web one. Yeah. And then social media, that arc of adoption of of process change, of societal change happened at a certain speed. This one's coming even faster. I think something you just said. Kyle and I had a session internally yesterday here at Sheehan's with many, many of our colleagues just to talk about the state of Chennai, what we're seeing, what it's baked into now, what our roadmap is, etc. but we had a lot of fun with prompts in the chat, prompts for the human beings, not for the AI, and we are asking folks to share some of the use as they do at work or at home.

00:12:19:15 - 00:12:38:00
Speaker 3
And you're right, Kyle, like the diversity and creativity and in some cases, the total randomness. But you're like, seriously, you thought to do that? That's so random, but it's so smart that I was kind of stunned. And it was funny in the chat to see other of our colleagues being like, whoa, I never thought of all these things.

00:12:38:00 - 00:12:58:17
Speaker 3
So that to me, I think, something came to my mind. It's like you light a sparkler, you know, at 4th of July and all these sparks start to fly off of it. That's what it felt like watching the chat, like all this creativity and energy, that just seems to feed on itself. And maybe that sounds a little bit like the experience you're having.

00:12:58:19 - 00:13:20:05
Speaker 1
Oh. Oh, for sure. I think it like, kind of crystallized for me. I started using it a while ago, maybe a couple weeks ago to, help me draft and and this is it's wild to even admit this, but I asked it to help me draft a, conversation with my five year old because our zones are changing here.

00:13:20:06 - 00:13:43:13
Speaker 1
So his school that he's in now is not going to be a school he will be able to attend without, you know, some alternate, some, extenuating circumstances next year. So I asked, ChatGPT GPT four specifically, like, give me the draft of a conversation. That explains to a five year old why he has to change schools in a year from school he doesn't like, or he that he likes a lot.

00:13:43:15 - 00:14:14:12
Speaker 1
And I thought that the way that this thing framed up a conversation like this was fascinating to me. Like, not something I would have thought of doing six months ago, however, and this is why I'm being specific about signing GPT for GPT four, the more advanced version of, the OpenAI Gpt3. So it is a little smarter, a lot smarter, honestly, about, picking up on cues and understanding prompts than 3.5 words.

00:14:14:14 - 00:14:39:12
Speaker 1
It was fascinating. I thought that the way that it framed this up, obviously in the perspective of the parent, it trained it up as, a situation on a playground. This these are, these are ways in which I had not thought of using it, but helping you navigate, real human interactions, not replacing them, but kind of giving you a way to frame your mind around potentially difficult conversations.

00:14:39:12 - 00:15:03:12
Speaker 1
I think. Sounds it sounds maybe dystopic in some ways, but to me it is almost therapeutic. It gives you a way to kind of get your thoughts out, help you organize them, and then perhaps come up with a more productive way, a camera conversation that perhaps may have been harder to have previously kind of primes you for that.

00:15:03:14 - 00:15:36:04
Speaker 3
That's such a fascinating example. And so that's just another thing of like, wow, you know, just see, experiment, see what it does. It reminds me, you know, in the discussion with our colleagues yesterday, a big theme came out which is helping you think about things in a fresh way, or maybe coming at it from a different corner. And if you look at DeepMind and their experiments with AlphaGo, you know, which built on what IBM did with chess earlier, you had this question of could a machine ever beat, you know, the elite go players around the world and everybody knows the story now?

00:15:36:04 - 00:15:59:10
Speaker 3
It did because it tried to move that just was so atypical that that a player that was decades and generations of human knowledge, that wasn't the way a master would play the game. And it's it's that reminds me, that's like it's taking a conversation that you as a parent, we usually approach in like a variety of ways and bringing it into a totally different context.

00:15:59:12 - 00:16:19:15
Speaker 3
To bring it into our industry, the marcom industry. I feel like in talking to many agencies and many colleagues and many client side folks over the course of the year, because it's such a top. I mean, all of us are talking about it all the time. How are you using it? What are you doing? The real theme right now of this year is experimentation to implementation.

00:16:19:15 - 00:16:42:13
Speaker 3
And I use implementation loosely because it's not as fully realized in many ways as it will be. I mean, that's that's obvious right now, but people are trying to put the rubber on the road in terms of how are we going to use this. So if you look back at 2023, Kyle, what are some of the early implementations you've been seeing in our industry or contexts that have been interesting to you?

00:16:42:15 - 00:17:15:00
Speaker 1
Well, you know, I think we're still at the nascent stages of what's possible in PR, PR and comms. For Gen I, I see the most readily, applicable ways to use gen AI is, would be in data and analytics. I think the more that you are leveraging data to make decisions, the more help you will likely need to interpret that data, especially now as we are getting access to more and more information.

00:17:15:02 - 00:17:42:16
Speaker 1
The one of the ways that we are or that certainly that I am trying to leverage any AI is to help with, social media analysis is to help with, sentiment analysis. I think most of these tools are a lot smarter than, tools like net based were. And that when they were using early versions of AI to kind of help, or machine learning to kind of help understand how sentiment, is, coming through and people's commentary on social media.

00:17:42:18 - 00:18:23:16
Speaker 1
We're in a much smarter place now. And though we may be still at the early stages of what's possible in data, generally in PR comms, I do think that genie AI gives us an opportunity to, to catch up, to other, industries like, you know, marketing and media buying and playing around data for decades, basically. And so now we're I think, you know, I can see a situation where maybe we throw in, a few examples, a few articles that highlight a client's crises from, you know, let's say a five year period and then use, an AI model to help kind of predict what crises may come up based on a PR,

00:18:23:16 - 00:18:53:20
Speaker 1
an article, an advancement, news, a newsworthy item that our clients talk to us about so that we can start to understand a little bit better how the past maybe influences our future actions. And I think you can use that same exact philosophy for content creation as well. I kind of just understanding what what you should be able to reasonably predict about a person's reaction to a piece of content just based on how they reacted to other pieces of content before.

00:18:53:20 - 00:19:11:12
Speaker 1
I mean, I think obviously we're still very early on in that, but to mark to the point that we were making earlier, the more that we start to use this stuff, the more creative we we think of using it. And I think this is just one of those ways, the data, the data side of this, I think, is what really, really excites me.

00:19:11:12 - 00:19:15:01
Speaker 1
And I think that's where a lot of smart organizations are starting to leverage it now.

00:19:15:03 - 00:19:43:11
Speaker 3
Yeah. And it's interesting, I think back over the course of my career, and it's always been exciting to watch the convergence of major trends and themes. So I early in my career, I got to watch the early advent of mobile phone working in wireless, and then the early advent of the transformation of the financial services industry into online, and then some of the really interesting technologies that were in the physical world, like contactless, you know, like tapping to get into the subway.

00:19:43:13 - 00:20:06:18
Speaker 3
One of the earliest examples of that was in Singapore, in the Singapore Metro system. And then suddenly you had this. All can come together into the mobile phone. You need it. IPhone, you need it, the financial services industry to come to a certain point, you needed certain other technologies like RFID and others. But when you converge together, suddenly you have mobile wallet and tap to pay and an Apple Pay and etc. etc..

00:20:06:20 - 00:20:16:21
Speaker 3
Right now what you just said, we are at a convergence point of all the discussion that's been had about big data. Remember when that was the term big data and then.

00:20:16:21 - 00:20:18:18
Speaker 1
Data takes me back.

00:20:18:20 - 00:20:40:21
Speaker 3
Exactly. Big lakes and and you know, pools of data that everybody was talking about as if that was the answer. No, that is actually the problem. I have this data. What do I do to derive value? Then we heard about machine learning. How will that help us. And then we hear about predictive analysis. Well predictive. That sounds exciting.

00:20:40:21 - 00:21:02:21
Speaker 3
How does that work. Now we're seeing the convergence of all of this. And clearly there are many professionals and industries that have been deeper into this, as you said, that have already been unlocking this. But I think now it's the proliferation of of it across enterprises and even into the consumer realm that's so exciting. And yeah, I agree with you.

00:21:02:21 - 00:21:10:03
Speaker 3
That's that's going to unlock value in ways for our clients and for ourselves that we've only thought about in the past and hoped for.

00:21:10:08 - 00:21:37:20
Speaker 1
As, as a leader, of a company with, you know, 100, 150, 200 plus people. How do you realistically think about implementation of some of these using some of these use cases as examples? I mean, could you sit and in a place where you're kind of getting a 30,000ft view of the the goings on in the operations of DNS, but you've also got to think of like practical on the ground implementation too.

00:21:37:20 - 00:21:45:04
Speaker 1
So where do you find the, the threads that allow you to anchor some of this more conceptual thought into like real, tangible action.

00:21:45:06 - 00:22:10:05
Speaker 3
As an organization leader, but also a practitioner? You know, I'm still an active counselor and media and presentation trainer and practitioner. I feel it's incumbent upon us to think at multiple levels at one time. We need to think 100,000ft as in, what does this mean to society? How will this change how we live? What does this mean to be human?

00:22:10:10 - 00:22:36:05
Speaker 3
What does it mean about authorship? How do we understand the ethical dimensions of how humans will interact with this unbelievably powerful technology? And can an agency like ours survive into the future? That sounds dystopic, but I mean that very seriously. What will our business look like? What will our services look like? How do we bring the best of ourselves, augmented by technology, to be the best partners and counselors?

00:22:36:05 - 00:22:57:17
Speaker 3
So that's 100,000ft level. But then you're right. I have to zoom down onto the ground to say, how do we actually operationalize this? And some of the things you and I are involved involved in. Kyle, with our Chennai team here, it's going to be very much about the big picture. But then also what are the use cases? How do we separate them into pillars?

00:22:57:17 - 00:23:18:18
Speaker 3
What are the pilot tests? How are people are reducing it? What are the ethical guidelines we need to put around this? Based on my work with the PR Council and how do we both experiment and support business model? So, you know, I don't know if you have any reactions to that, but I think it requires all of us to be very elastic and flexible in our thinking.

00:23:19:00 - 00:23:21:06
Speaker 3
Go big and then zoom in.

00:23:21:08 - 00:23:56:12
Speaker 1
I do I mean, you know, we're we're about to get into a conversation about the industry adapting to some of these, these changes. And, you know, I don't want to spend too much time, navel gazing. However, I do think that, you know, kind of pursuant to the title of, this podcast, I think the, the brand gravity around our agency and probably about or around a lot of legacy agencies will probably need to shift and probably, you know, it's worth it to think of the ways in which we may be need to adjust how we brand ourselves.

00:23:56:12 - 00:24:21:03
Speaker 1
I think everything you're talking about makes total sense. And, you know, having dedicated people here that you've picked to be at the forefront of this experimentation and having and give them like actual tangible tasks is paramount here. But I even think the way that we talk about this agency, as we start to blend some of this technology into our day to day, I think that's really going to be what's necessary.

00:24:21:05 - 00:24:30:18
Speaker 1
For most organizations, really, ourselves included, you know, as we start to change and adapt to some of these, some of these new techs and new ways of doing things.

00:24:30:20 - 00:24:57:10
Speaker 3
Yeah. And part of it will be I'm not doing the same thing that I did 30 years ago when I came into integrated marketing communications at a very large agency, Burson-Marsteller. And of course, yes, my role is different. I'm not entry level now, but nobody and this is the funny example, but there's a billion of these. Nobody is putting out press clips and measuring column inches and pasting them onto a piece of paper.

00:24:57:12 - 00:25:38:02
Speaker 3
That sounds absurd now, but the reason I say that is jobs changed agency capabilities change, client needs change, client organizations change. Sometimes that change is fast and really painful and disruptive. Other times it's such a slow arc that suddenly you wake up and say, My God, how much our lives have changed? I think if we can pivot into what we expect to come in the next year or so, and what you know, very practically, but I'll say the bigger picture, I think that what I'm going to be watching both as a practitioner, as a colleague, and as a client counselor and as a leader is where is the change going to be fast

00:25:38:02 - 00:25:55:13
Speaker 3
and where is it? Will be a more steady, organic arc where, hey, it's just getting baked in. Oh, we're unfolding capabilities. Oh, we can work faster versus wow, we really need to shift what people are doing. Like we need to make that decision tomorrow or today. We need this tool, this platform. And I think you're right, Kyle.

00:25:55:13 - 00:26:18:04
Speaker 3
It's it takes a lot of intention of thought about. And also, what is it that client organizations will need? One of the most fascinating things I've watched over the years is which capability is live, where and who feels they need them. Who is that that brought web development, in-house agency or client side? And then when was it farmed out against partners who are specialized?

00:26:18:06 - 00:26:36:08
Speaker 3
How many people are on internally on a social media team? How many are doing content internally at a client? Where are they using an agency for that? Where do we begin and end? There's a million answers to that question, but I think part of it for us is also understanding where the human begins and ends, where the machine begins and ends.

00:26:36:10 - 00:27:08:15
Speaker 1
Conversation that came up in in the townhall we were doing yesterday. Listen, I think most people when taught when when you talk to them about this, I think will probably have a somewhat fearful reaction at worst, cautious one at best. I think there's probably merit to a blend of those two, sentiments, honestly. However, I'll say this the fact that we and other agencies like this are starting to explore and sign on pilots and partnerships, I think that shows some of that thinking is being shared.

00:27:08:15 - 00:27:25:23
Speaker 1
You know, caution is justified to an extent. I think no one really knows what the next five, ten years are going to look like when it comes to, jobs, especially in the comms industry. You know, you I've seen a couple of studies. I will not try to cite them here. Just Google them. But I've seen a couple studies.

00:27:26:01 - 00:27:55:14
Speaker 1
Yeah, I can see kind of a couple of studies that talk about the industry's most that are probably going to be most affected by generative AI preponderance, PR, comms, marketing, writing, like all that stuff. I mean, it's near the top of the list and all of them. Not surprising. I think all that just means, though, is that the ways in which we think about how to use this stuff, and these advancements, I think you you have to you have to, to your point, move both with caution and with intention.

00:27:55:16 - 00:28:17:15
Speaker 1
But you also have to be curious enough. I love the for the phrase curiosity. I think curiosity is one of the more redeeming characteristics anyone can have. You got to be curious enough to actually try some of this stuff yourself. To my point earlier, identify the ways in which you're using it that could spark more esoteric ways of using generative AI.

00:28:17:17 - 00:28:26:04
Speaker 1
And then use that as a guide to maybe on a larger scale, what you can implement and what actually, maybe you need to take more time to do.

00:28:26:06 - 00:28:49:00
Speaker 3
Yeah. Part of what I'd love to spark in myself and others is the joy of this exploration and experimentation, while being really clear eyed about cautions and and and concerns and also possible very difficult futures. If we as a society and as human beings don't stay attentive to that. I think we are at our best in this field.

00:28:49:00 - 00:29:14:12
Speaker 3
Counselors, thought partners, innovators, we are called on because we're not in the day to day, every day with each of our client organizations, their talent and they're situated in the business that they're in. We stand at a crossroads of many industries, and that's supposed to be our goal and our role. And we can never lose sight of that.

00:29:14:12 - 00:29:39:07
Speaker 3
And it's not a defensive posture at all. It's actually a really celebratory one, because it does celebrate curiosity and intellectual rigor and being open and cross pollination in multiple industries. And what are we learning? But we have to remember that our value is to bring that spark back to those who are contracting with us, you know, spending their, you know, valuable capital to bring us in as partners.

00:29:39:07 - 00:30:08:06
Speaker 3
So if I look ahead to the future, you know, let's both think for a minute about what are we most excited about over the next like one, two, three years? I'm pretty excited about AI everywhere. I'm very excited about it being baked in in all kinds. I mean, there's such an explosion of development and creativity on the technology front, especially as these platforms open source or allow folks to, you know, create off of them.

00:30:08:08 - 00:30:34:15
Speaker 3
And also as the larger entities allow enterprises to sort of create their own large language models and, and, you know, predictive models, etc.. So that's exciting. So that mass integration, and I'm also really excited in the next year about really leaning into the places that we can make ourselves more efficient and creative, where things were a little bit rote before.

00:30:34:15 - 00:30:55:13
Speaker 3
It's always hard. You get the most amazing, talented young people who come in and you're like, hey, there's this stuff that you have to do that is a little bit rote, but if we can make that more strategic and fun and interesting and faster and smarter, that they can then add value to places where that human instinct is there.

00:30:55:13 - 00:30:59:04
Speaker 3
I think that's amazing. Mean, what are some of the things that you're excited about?

00:30:59:06 - 00:31:12:21
Speaker 1
I mean, you heard me talk about this at the beginning of the podcast, and it's been this way for a while, but I really think that the biggest and most interesting advancements are probably going to be in medicine.

00:31:12:22 - 00:31:19:14
Speaker 3
I want I hope that's the case, Kyle, I really do. I mean, that's that's an amazing opportunity.

00:31:19:16 - 00:31:48:15
Speaker 1
I mean, I think the diagnostic abilities of AI are probably its strongest suit, its ability to, digest, find connections, build on, identify trends that are probably often missed by humans. I think that creates so much potential for being able to find diseases, being able to diagnose people early and to my point earlier, give them, a better chance of living.

00:31:48:17 - 00:32:19:00
Speaker 1
I think the, the, the less kind of, I guess, life changing examples that I can say, I, I love the ability, to create images. I think the Creative Spaces is obviously handwritten a little bit, because of this and for good reason. You know, a lot of what the writers and directors, and, the actors have been fighting over is about ownership of IP and how things like generative AI models are being fed.

00:32:19:02 - 00:32:44:02
Speaker 1
However, I see it as a potential for expanded imagination. I recently used Dall-E to give me an idea for, a tattoo, and I'm not expecting to walk into a tattoo parlor with this exact thing. In fact, Dall-E has a weird thing where if you if you. I gave it my son's name, but it kept misspelling it weirdly.

00:32:44:07 - 00:32:47:19
Speaker 1
Add letters, remove letters, combine letters.

00:32:47:21 - 00:32:53:16
Speaker 3
Just keep. It's keeping us on our toes. It's making sure that we don't understand what the hell is going on.

00:32:53:19 - 00:33:19:08
Speaker 1
Yes, exactly. But I had I had that idea of, you know, my son's name emerging from the water for years and really couldn't properly articulate how it should look. But this gives me at least a starting point that I can talk to an artist about to actually make it something real, something tangible, something moat, a motive for me.

00:33:19:10 - 00:33:37:01
Speaker 1
And I think that's where a lot of I think smart creators are using it just as an inspiration engine, like, oh, let me just spit this idea out and see what it comes back with. And then maybe I can take that and tweak it and change it just because I now have a physical representation of something. I was just thinking.

00:33:37:03 - 00:34:09:19
Speaker 3
I think that's really powerful. Our creative team and even folks beyond our formal creative team who are exercising their own creativity, we have people asking us to do so many different things, but our creative team is really leaning into this and understanding its edges and boundaries and pushing those edges and blank page brainstorming. And also, you know, the enterprise piece, the baked in piece when platforms like Adobe bakes, some of this capability right into the tools are already using that just as a game changer, right?

00:34:09:19 - 00:34:41:11
Speaker 3
So, you know, simple things like, hey, there's a photograph with two people and I need only one of them, and I'm going to have I erase them and fix the background and seconds. What used to take some careful work over maybe an hour or so to really get it right. That is the kind of removal of friction and speed that then allows each individual for each professional to bring even more of themselves to what we do, you know, and that that to me is really, really exciting.

00:34:41:11 - 00:35:07:21
Speaker 3
I think that brings me to the places as a counselor where we need to exercise, thoughtfulness, caution, advice. I'm still I used to work with ask cap years ago, the American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers, and I was very involved with digital copyright issues in the early days of Creative Commons and post Napster. And, you know, this world now is supercharged.

00:35:07:21 - 00:35:45:20
Speaker 3
Some of the issues, like the rights of creators, the the proliferation and digital of IP ownership payments. I think we as agency people need to keep intellectual property law, protection of creators, protection of people's images, and also authentic representations of things. Deepfakes, misinformation is definitely a concern to me. I think you'd be completely Pollyanna and blind not to be concerned about, as you said, what are the choices that individual people or groups are going to make on how to use technology that is this powerful?

00:35:45:21 - 00:36:04:20
Speaker 3
So as we come into an election year, as we try to advise our clients and ourselves on what the proper uses, I want to make sure that we're looking at this through an ethical lens, and that we never lose in our excitement, that we also never lose the other side of the coin, which is what's a responsible and intentional use of this technology.

00:36:04:20 - 00:36:07:05
Speaker 3
I mean, what's what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, I.

00:36:07:06 - 00:36:34:00
Speaker 1
You know, I, I when I think about policy, it is always really, really nuanced thoughts for me only because everyone whenever you write a new policy, especially for a policy, is something that nobody understands 100%. And that is constantly changing. I think we're probably still dealing with some of this with social media, actually. I mean, it requires a certain level of understanding.

00:36:34:00 - 00:36:56:05
Speaker 1
And I think when I think about, you know, I know we'll get into the future, a little bit. But when I think about the future, I think about the ways in which people are going to try to regulate AI and whether or not the regulations are going to do more harm than good. As far as our ability to understand how best to use it with intention.

00:36:56:07 - 00:37:23:02
Speaker 1
Like, and I, I, I don't know that like I'm making some wild assumptions here obviously, but I do think that there's enough, evidence in the ways that policy has been written for social media that we, you know, you run the risk of not including, like, nuanced thought into how we leverage AI. If you kind of are not just quick to advance it, but also quick to overregulate it.

00:37:23:04 - 00:37:50:07
Speaker 1
You know, I don't want to sound like a deregulation like, maybe here, but I, I, I'm just I'm just bullish on, on advancement. And I think that the more you have people or a more diverse array of people who are willing to experiment with it, much like I said about more creative ways to use it, I think you come up with more creative, and more nuanced ways to manage how to ethically use it.

00:37:50:07 - 00:38:21:07
Speaker 1
And I don't think any policy can stay stagnant. I think even hours at genius, which is a good one, I think, we'll probably need to change next year as, this technology becomes more ubiquitous and it changes itself, and we're going to have to find different ways to think about what experimentation looks like and get more comfortable with how things that we maybe have felt comfortable doing as humans can either be come either obsolete or heavily augmented.

00:38:21:09 - 00:38:28:05
Speaker 1
Our our humanity can be augmented using some of the the creativity that this might unlock people.

00:38:28:07 - 00:38:59:15
Speaker 3
I think you're very right. The way I would phrase it is that regulation in this space is likely to lag. That's why it's incumbent upon us as counselors, to our clients and experts in our field, to create both the environment for experimentation, pushing, opening up, transforming how we work, but also understanding what we think are the proper guardrails and what we feel is an ethical lens on the application of generative AI.

00:38:59:17 - 00:39:16:22
Speaker 3
I think that's going to be very, very important. What's what's your advice for Markham's and PR professionals to stay ahead and just we we cover as a whole integrated marketing communications landscape. So what are you most hoping that even our own colleagues do in the future?

00:39:17:00 - 00:39:54:16
Speaker 1
I mean, honestly, I think experimentation is key. I think getting and getting access to and using the most advanced versions, the advanced models, you know, I think a lot of people still use, GPT three and 3.5, and that is kind of their baseline, baseline of knowledge for what I kind of is. And when you actually look at GPT four, even even prior to an extent and some of the other platforms that are exist that are coming into, coming online now, it's way more advanced.

00:39:54:18 - 00:40:30:11
Speaker 1
You know, it's way smarter, it's way easier to kind of get at some useful, responses. You know, I've, I've even started using GPT four as like a de facto replacement for Google. Right now, you know, if you if you write your prompts the right way, you can get a detailed answer on anything, and way more detailed than what you would get from Google, because Google's just a collection, like a list of websites as opposed to an articulation and explanation of why something is with citations, which is what you would get from, ChatGPT.

00:40:30:13 - 00:41:01:16
Speaker 1
So I would just encourage people in the industry to experiment with it, not just in prompt writing, not just in research, but in the ways that you can more, readily, show off tone and voice. You can ask AI to help you. And, I that's probably what the thesis of a, maybe a press release of a blog post of a white paper is to make sure that your, your ideas are actually coalescing into something useful.

00:41:01:18 - 00:41:24:15
Speaker 1
And I think that just the some of the things that I was talking about earlier with crisis prediction, I think I just thought of this like one way that you could, I could conceivably think of, using AI right now is to take an article about a crisis and maybe start playing with your post to see if there was a way this crisis could have been predicted.

00:41:24:15 - 00:41:38:11
Speaker 1
Like, what ways could a crisis like this be prevented? And then maybe start building content off of those ideas? I mean, but that only comes with experimentation, right? And like, I think you have to just start playing with it.

00:41:38:12 - 00:42:06:15
Speaker 3
Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. And I would my advice to colleagues in our industry and really beyond experimentation, but then also really lean into what we are talented at in this industry, which is critical and discern and thinking. What is the source? Can we go back and verify something in a world where AI is still, suffering from hallucinations and it will get better over time?

00:42:06:17 - 00:42:24:03
Speaker 3
How do we ask ourselves, how do I know this is right? You know, what do I think about this? And also really lean into the collaboration. And you talked about augmented humanity. I love hearing people talk about what that could be in the future. And I think it goes in a lot of different directions, including in the physical world.

00:42:24:05 - 00:42:44:03
Speaker 3
But how do you take your skill as a writer who can iterate on different drafts? Who don't you don't make as human as a human being? The first thing you write isn't the final draft. Usually you're going to iterate and you're going to learn something, and what you intend to to write may not be what the final product ends up being.

00:42:44:05 - 00:43:06:06
Speaker 3
So how do you use AI in the machine, for lack of a better word, to help you iterate and use and lead into an open up more space for what makes us truly human? So to finish off today, because this conversation, as we said, could go on forever at this point, on these topics, there's a lot of prognosticating out there, Kyle.

00:43:06:06 - 00:43:39:20
Speaker 3
There's a lot of people have a lot of things to say, and I guess we're two of them as well. So I think we should call what is the pronounced situation that's B.S. and what is not B.S.. I think that's a good way to end. So I'll start with one thing that I think is a little bit of B.S., which is what I'm calling the the utopic dystopic binary, meaning it's either all awesome or, it's all the matrix and it's all AI robot, and they're going to destroy humanity, right?

00:43:39:22 - 00:44:05:21
Speaker 3
So my feeling about people who have prognosticate about our industry over the years, as in the press releases that all agencies are going down, there's never going to be any, you know, stockbrokers again. You know, I've heard too many of these over the years. What I usually find is that the binary is the zero sum. Thinking is B.S. the truth is usually in the middle, and usually what will happen is we will bring the best and worst of ourselves to it.

00:44:05:21 - 00:44:30:09
Speaker 1
That's right. I mean, you're spot on. I don't think you can go to extreme in either direction. Because that leaves you way open to missing a lot of really interesting, nuanced things. So I agree with your total bias. What's best for me, is, is I think you've heard a lot of people say this, the fear of human obsolescence, by, by AI.

00:44:30:09 - 00:44:58:23
Speaker 1
Now, do I think that there is some very obvious, negative outcomes that are possible with generative AI gone unchecked? Of course, I'd be foolish not to. However, my thinking is, and this has been repeated ad nauseum by a lot, a lot of people who are a lot smarter than I am. The most likely scenario is that people who don't use AI are going to be replaced, just like, with any new technology.

00:44:59:01 - 00:45:28:19
Speaker 1
The the people who learn it, who adapt to it, who integrate it into their day to day experience often accelerate either professionally, socially, whatever. Have you, at a much faster rate than those who don't? Not to say that that it's possible, but I certainly don't believe that human obsolescence is on the horizon. What I do think is that the world that we know, the world that we're comfortable with now, that's probably gone forever, but it will just give rise to a new comfort.

00:45:28:19 - 00:45:33:15
Speaker 1
A new what, you know, a new normal, which we should all be familiar with after Covid. Honestly.

00:45:33:17 - 00:45:57:07
Speaker 3
I think that's a really. Yeah, it's true. We're having to go through a lot of change and embracing it and being open to it. So final advice, learn self educate, experiment. And we're going to keep going on that I know here. And and hopefully I just love learning. So for me it's an exciting time to be leading or an organization, but also still doing the tasks that we love to do.

00:45:57:09 - 00:46:06:19
Speaker 3
So Kyle, thank you. And we really appreciate those who tuned in. This is building brand gravity and we will see you back for our next set of episodes in 2024.

00:46:06:21 - 00:46:08:16
Speaker 1
Right on for a great year guys.

00:46:08:18 - 00:46:37:17
Speaker 2
We are gas business communications. We are a team of media strategists, storytellers, and engagement experts who meet you at the intersection of business and communications. To learn more, visit GTS communications.com. You're listening to building Brand Gravity, Attracting People into Your Orbit, a business communications podcast. Keep connected with us by subscribing to the show in your favorite podcast player.

00:46:37:22 - 00:46:49:07
Speaker 2
If you like what you've heard, please rate the show that helps us to keep delivering the latest industry influence. Thanks for listening. Until next time.