Building Brand Gravity Podcast

00:00:00:10 - 00:00:28:21
Speaker 3
Hello, I'm Anne Green and welcome to Building Brand Gravity. I'm a principal here at Chinese Business Communications, and I'm so pleased to welcome my guests today to the podcast, Doctor Asay Appiah, who is a professor of communication at the Ohio State University. You are a renowned communication and race scholar, who's written and lectured on the impact of strategic communication messages and media on ethnic minorities and the role that stereotypes play on intergroup interaction.

00:00:28:21 - 00:01:00:18
Speaker 3
And boy, that's so timely in our culture today. I think so much so. And you co-edited the book Advertising and Persuasion in a Diverse World and published in tons of academic journals, Journal of Communication, Human Communications Research, many more. And what was really interesting to me about your bio and maybe you can comment on this, is, it talks about helping to demonstrate to mainstream journal editors and reviewers and readers about the importance of race and why race matters in the field of communication.

00:01:00:20 - 00:01:11:12
Speaker 3
And I'm not sure if you just want to comment on that briefly, because I do think that for fronting, that question is so important, especially in the field, that we are both in, in our own ways.

00:01:11:14 - 00:01:43:09
Speaker 1
That's a great question. Thanks for the introduction. And I also want to thank you for having the opportunity to have a conversation with you today on this podcast. It's an honor to be here, and I'm extremely sighted and happy when we when I look at my research, my research centers on interracial interaction, identity, stereotype, and the effects of strategic communication messages on ethnic minorities and, ethnic majorities in my field.

00:01:43:13 - 00:02:24:04
Speaker 1
There have been times where I felt as though race didn't always matter. I would submit research papers to journals and editors or reviewers. For example, I would when I submitted research papers to journals. Oftentimes, the population that I talked about in those research papers were specific to blacks and which I thought is particularly important, but I would oftentimes get reviewers who would comment and say, hey, your research is interesting, but can you provide a comparison group?

00:02:24:06 - 00:03:00:16
Speaker 1
Can you include white populations in your research? Because audiences, are particularly would be particularly interested to know how whites compare with blacks. And to me, it somewhat, dilutes the importance of looking specifically at the black community. In order to publish my research, I was often asked if I felt like I had to incorporate whites into that research in order for it to be seen as significant and important.

00:03:00:18 - 00:03:30:00
Speaker 1
Today, for example, we're talking primarily about, kind of the impact, the empowering thing and cultivating, black talent. And it's not necessarily that we have in this conversation. We have to talk about white talent alongside of black talent. But I feel in my research, in order for me to demonstrate, the importance in my work ahead of the times, using the white comparison group.

00:03:30:04 - 00:04:00:17
Speaker 1
So that makes it particularly challenging to publish in mainstream journals where you have, readers who are overwhelmingly white. So how do you make race important, interesting to audiences who are primarily part of a racial outgroup, which are white? So how do I make talking about blacks important to white mainstream audiences? So that was the challenge.

00:04:00:19 - 00:04:25:13
Speaker 3
That's really helpful. And it had such good context from the very beginning of this conversation about these moments of centering whiteness that are not even, on the radar of many people. You know, that we talk about dominant identities, marginalized identities, and a lot of times those are acting in ways that are subconscious for folks. I think. And what you're saying is really like, well, we have to center whiteness in this, otherwise how will it be relevant?

00:04:25:13 - 00:04:53:11
Speaker 3
So I agree, let's recenter this conversation on black professionals in this industry. And let's let's be really intentional about that. And one of the things we're going to talk about today, and I'll get to in a minute, I have a I have another lead in because there's, there's some stats I want to share with you that aren't going to be very familiar to you, and I'd love to get your take on them to set the stage, but we are going to be talking about a group that you also formed at the Ohio State University called basket of the Black Advertising and Strategic Communications Association.

00:04:53:11 - 00:05:11:16
Speaker 3
And I'm so excited because in a follow up teaser to this podcast, I'm going to get to talk to the basket, some of the basket students. But to back up a little bit, you wrote a paper in 2016 that was published in the Journal of Advertising Education, and the title is fun. Some may recognize the reference here.

00:05:11:16 - 00:05:38:01
Speaker 3
Advertising Industry Diversity. We've kind of come a long way, baby, but larger pipeline and more intentional action from industry and educators needed. And in that, in the very beginning you quoted from the Madison Avenue Project some stats. This is from 2011 that at that time, black individuals represented 13% of the US population, but made up only 5% of the advertising profession.

00:05:38:03 - 00:06:06:06
Speaker 3
So our amazing digital team here at CNS helped me out and did some research and found, the Association of National Advertisers shout out to my former client and the Alliance for Inclusive and Multicultural Marketing just published a study last November and their stats were that black individuals make up 12.1% of the US population. So versus 13, but now are 7.2% of job roles in advertising.

00:06:06:08 - 00:06:30:21
Speaker 3
So, a couple things. We've gone from 5% to 7.2% between 2011 and 2022. Progress but small. And the other thing I would like to say is I recognize that's looking primarily at advertising. My field is a little bit broader lens of marketing communications, but I feel it's very, very comparable. I would feel the numbers are quite we've been a member of the PR Council and I think that would be very similar.

00:06:30:21 - 00:06:46:08
Speaker 3
But what's just to start off, I assume these numbers are not surprising to you. I mean, what is your take on this progress? Evolution? Slow, fast. I mean what what's your reaction to hearing those two bookended together?

00:06:46:10 - 00:07:25:02
Speaker 1
Well, a number of things come to mind. First, there's a, a pressing need. Part of the reason that we're here, you and I are speaking, is that there's a pressing need for companies in partnership with academic institutions to rectify the underrepresentation of blacks in marketing communication firms. And although society has become increasingly more ethnically diverse, the marketing communication industry, in my opinion, has woefully trailed behind in their efforts to diversify the workplace.

00:07:25:04 - 00:07:59:03
Speaker 1
Advertising agencies and other marketing communication firms have, in my opinion, had made little progress in hiring blacks. This is particularly troubling to me, given that, as I kind of alluded to in some of that research from my 2016 paper, that, this problem was really identified, you know, about 40 years ago by the New York, Human Rights Commission, who actually threatened to force executives of a leading ad agency to testify about their dismal record of hiring ethnic minorities.

00:07:59:03 - 00:08:38:08
Speaker 1
Really come up in and explain, hey, why is this the case? What's the problem? How has this how has this occurred? So, given a historical and current dearth of blacks in marketing communication agencies, there was a dire need to create a program that could help to address this problem. Maybe shifted a little bit, in terms of kind of why I started the black advertising as a teacher communication association because of this long history of underrepresentation of blacks in marketing communication.

00:08:38:10 - 00:09:05:08
Speaker 1
Field, if you will. So I know that agencies seek talent with strong educational backgrounds. They want young people to have relevant professional experience and a broad understanding of the industry. And in many ways, that's what we're trying to do with Bask. I created the black advertise, the Strategic Communication Association. About. Well, it wasn't about it was ten years ago.

00:09:05:08 - 00:09:07:18
Speaker 1
In fact, we just recently celebrated our 10th year.

00:09:07:21 - 00:09:11:01
Speaker 3
Happy anniversary. That's amazing. It's a big milestone.

00:09:11:03 - 00:09:48:19
Speaker 1
Thank you very much. I appreciate it. And but basket aims to do is to lead more black students to aspire to and attain, careers in advertising, PR, marketing and other strategic communication related occupations. Bhaskar also provide students with access to professional mentors. Create create opportunities for students to gain professional experience through internships. Despite our limited funding, we've been able to over the last ten years.

00:09:48:21 - 00:10:39:04
Speaker 1
Take Bhaskar, take our basket members. Roughly over 100 of them, for an annual professional development and career networking trips to major cities like New York, Chicago, Atlanta, Washington, DC to meet industry professionals and at these organizations. And we've gone not only to, all the cities we visited, a number of companies such as, on our on the Way, Coca-Cola, the NFL, CNN, Headline News, Ketchum, Edelman, BBDO, Ogilvy and may there, Chicago Tribune, Leo Burnett for rail communications and places like Spotify, Showtime.

00:10:39:04 - 00:11:10:22
Speaker 1
And of course, one of our favorite places was, Genius Communications. So while we were in New York, we were at the, Good Fortune to come to your company and visit. We had a, remarkable time. I should also mention, if I may, that we've also made an imprint here. Locally, busk has been able to build relationships with industry leaders here in the greater Columbus area.

00:11:10:23 - 00:11:59:09
Speaker 1
And many of the industry leaders at companies in the greater Columbus area has helped busker to engage and, engage our members in internship opportunities, resume workshops, life skills. And in addition to that, we have, meetings every, twice a month. And we bring in executives from all over the area here. Bask, in my opinion, has helped black students acquire knowledge, necessary skills and experience, thereby generating a pool of top graduates from which local and national agencies, can choose.

00:11:59:11 - 00:12:26:23
Speaker 1
And in that paper, the 2016 paper, I discuss some of the, for lack of a better word excuse, is that companies have used to explained underrepresentation of ethnic minorities, in particular blacks at the company, at these companies. And what we hear is that all the agencies expressed that they want to hire more ethnic minorities. Many claim they cannot find diverse can.

00:12:26:23 - 00:12:31:01
Speaker 3
Oh, yes. That's been a long time trope that I've heard over the years.

00:12:31:01 - 00:12:37:06
Speaker 1
And my argument is, well, now they can get back is helping to add to that pipeline.

00:12:37:06 - 00:12:56:17
Speaker 3
So, you know, the pipeline piece. And I want to talk about the pipeline because you've helped me deepen my thoughts about it. In reading your work and talking with you, because it's something I've reflected on for a very long time. You know, my background as an undergrad, as a liberal arts person. So I didn't come out of a communications background.

00:12:56:17 - 00:13:37:19
Speaker 3
So I'm sort of an accidental business person, accidental communications executive. But I did encounter in the late 80s, early 90s when I was an English major and a women's studies minor. And I think I mentioned to this to you when we spoke that that was the first time that I realized, as a women's studies, person who really was committed to the concept of feminism, I really ran right up against an immediate and necessary and just life changing critique by authors like Audre Lorde and bell hooks, who made it very clear to me that feminism centered on whiteness could be a social justice movement that was also oppressive and, replicating racism and systemic oppression.

00:13:37:21 - 00:13:56:03
Speaker 3
To get back to the pipeline, you know, I've, I've had a lot of angst as an executive in this field, and I should about this this whole claim of we can't find the talent, where's the talent? And that sort of sense of throwing your hands up in helplessness. And I think I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

00:13:56:03 - 00:14:12:16
Speaker 3
And obviously Basque is one answer, but the other side of it that you brought up to me in your paper is the Academy and the education side, and what it is educational institutions need to do. Do you want to talk about either of those two mentioned, those two sides of the coin?

00:14:12:18 - 00:14:51:22
Speaker 1
I think it's a partnership. And what I mean by partnership, I think it's a partnership between academic institutions and industry that we need to work together to develop and nurture, as you mentioned, cultivate and empower the black talent. The Academy has a responsibility on their side, to increase the interest in the number of majors and strategic communication, related areas.

00:14:52:00 - 00:15:34:17
Speaker 1
What that means is active recruiting and retaining students in those strategic communication related majors. It also means providing a atmosphere and environment that is conducive for those students to succeed, to have a sense of belonging. And certainly specific things that we can do is you there should be student organizations within, the academy, let's say a school of communication should have student organizations that are geared towards ethnic minorities and other community groups, if you will.

00:15:34:17 - 00:16:30:07
Speaker 1
But in this case, we're talking specifically about, blacks who have a black student organization that deals primarily with issues related to the industry, or I should say that is focused on, professional development, like basket. Other things that can be done is having a diversity or Dei committee within the School of Communication, because a Dei committee or some kind of, chief diversity officer within the school, within the department, who can have as their job to embrace diversity, to focus on issues of retention, recruitment and, and also whose responsibility it is to, engage in, connecting with, with students.

00:16:30:09 - 00:17:01:09
Speaker 1
So student organizations, dei committee. It is also important for heavily for academic institutions to reach out to high schools. And a lot of students. When I was growing up, I didn't know anything about advertising, and I didn't know anything about public relations as a kid growing up in Long Beach, California, in a very, you know, indigent, poverty stricken, gang infested environment.

00:17:01:11 - 00:17:30:16
Speaker 1
My what I focused on primarily was, sports in, in playing basketball, academics was very important in my household. My mom and dad valued, academics. But because we had no money, the way in which I felt I needed to get out of that environment and go to college was through sports. So I played basketball, got a scholarship to play basketball at Santa Clara University.

00:17:30:18 - 00:18:02:15
Speaker 1
I apologize, I didn't really go over my my educational background, but it wasn't until I got to college, in effect, to graduate school when I was working on my PhD, that I really learned anything about advertising. And I was, getting my PhD at Stanford University. And I saw that there were some fliers across campus that talked about, a chairman and CEO from an advertising agency was coming to speak at Stanford.

00:18:02:17 - 00:18:32:20
Speaker 1
In fact, he his name is Joe Mewes. He was the chairman and CEO of muse at the time. Was music Darrell and Jen that ultimately turned into music communications. And again, I'm a PC student. I'm probably, I don't know, 25, 26 years old. And I went to go watch him. I went to go listen to his, presentation and he talked about his business.

00:18:32:20 - 00:19:09:00
Speaker 1
He talked about why he started, music direction or Miss Communications, which was a, racially which was a multicultural advertising agency. And there weren't a whole lot of them. We, we had real communications, which has, been the standard historically, but there weren't many of those. And as I listened to him in Hersham talk about how much joy, how much passion he had for advertising in the industry, and as he talked about what advertising was and what it did, it fascinated me.

00:19:09:02 - 00:19:32:03
Speaker 1
So this was really the first time I was able to hear about advertising. And this was coming from a black man, chairman, CEO of an ad agency, and he was black. So at 25, this is kind of my first introduction to advertising outside of watching television. I'm looking at a guy who worked in the industry. I immediately said, you know what?

00:19:32:05 - 00:20:12:15
Speaker 1
This is an area that is open, available and accessible to me because I see someone who looks like me, who's doing it. So I say that in the context of, when you go to high schools, the academy or industry professionals, and you talk to kids about what you do, it informs them not only about the industry, but they not only do they get to know about it, they can start aspiring to careers or occupations that or, that they hear about that they see people who look like them.

00:20:12:16 - 00:20:49:04
Speaker 1
So I think it's important for industry professionals and the academy to go into high schools and talk about advertising, to get young people informed about it and to start aspiring to those careers, I think is particularly important to have, scholarships, within these schools that are specific to, diverse groups and not only specific to diverse groups rewarding in acknowledging ethnic minorities, in particular blacks who are excelling academically in those areas.

00:20:49:06 - 00:21:47:00
Speaker 1
And that's particularly important to acknowledge and to provide, a sense of accomplishment, a sense of reward for those students who are doing well because it lets them know that they can continue on in that field, and it's a rewarding one. So, and the last thing, and I'm sorry to be so long winded, it's important to provide mentors, for young people, to work with academic institutions, as industry professionals, to work with young people who are aspiring to get into com areas and mentor them, help to advise them on the right path, the right journey, let them know what pitfalls they may face in various challenges, but also help them understand

00:21:47:01 - 00:21:55:15
Speaker 1
the benefits of getting into those fields and that, the field is welcoming. It embraces diversity.

00:21:55:17 - 00:22:12:12
Speaker 3
I mean, I would say people talk about a journey, and I think it'll be a big theme of mine. And other leadership this year is trying to kind of erase zero sum thinking. And what I mean by that is that multiple things can be true at one time. We can, as she us be making and have made real progress.

00:22:12:14 - 00:22:37:08
Speaker 3
And we can also be not there yet and also not be great in other areas. You know, there can still be microaggressions or cultural issues or things that we need to work out together. So I really believe that. And one of the areas and I want to talk about this question of representation. You know, one of the things that we know we need to work on over time is representation at the highest levels of our agency, the owner group, the senior leadership.

00:22:37:08 - 00:22:57:16
Speaker 3
And we're really trying to take steps to do that. But there's always that phrase representation matters. And I think in the dialog out in the world today, there's other counterpoints to that or they're not even counterpoints, but there are other threads like diversity isn't enough. We need to get to equity. We need to get to belonging. We need to get to a real sense of inclusion.

00:22:57:17 - 00:23:16:05
Speaker 3
We need to get to justice. Or, you know, we don't want to be in the early days. And this is where all of these debates around affirmative action come in, which get very ugly and are very timely right now. But, you know, what is it about numbers? But what you're saying, and I'd love you to reflect on it more, is that I do feel representation does matter.

00:23:16:05 - 00:23:33:18
Speaker 3
To see yourself in leadership, to see that it's possible, you know, when you talk to your students, how do you think they reflect on seeing pathways through other human beings that share their experience or look like them, or part of a shared identity? How does that affect them, do you think?

00:23:33:20 - 00:24:01:12
Speaker 1
Let me elaborate on some things that companies can do. When we think about kind of representation, how do we get representation? First and foremost, we or industries, partners need to hire more people of color, in particular blacks. That starts off first and foremost with, hiring folks who have experience. Oftentimes, no one's going to get it get hired unless they have some experience.

00:24:01:12 - 00:24:47:02
Speaker 1
How do you get experience? You can't get experience unless you get hired. That happens with, internships. And I know that, internships for students are particularly valuable so that they can gain that experience and hopefully gain, the job within, a company. But so let's think about some things in terms of what companies can do when they can offer mentorship programs, which is something that I talked about before, because mentorship and guidance can help students, go down the right path and, develop experience knowledge that particularly important to be marketable.

00:24:47:02 - 00:25:39:14
Speaker 1
These two companies can advocate for diverse candidates. And I think you and I have had conversations before such that if there are people of color who work at the company, especially blacks, it's important to not only have mentorship, but to have folks in the company who advocate for, folks of color. Oftentimes, I think. This is unfortunate, but in many cases, it's important to have as a black person to have allies who don't look like you, who can advocate for you because in many cases, their comments, their, advocacy in many ways matters more.

00:25:39:14 - 00:26:07:10
Speaker 1
It holds more credibility among white mainstream employees and managers. And so that that's very important tip advocates, who look like you and who don't look like you. Also, it's important to create a workplace that embraces diversity. I mentioned some of the things that, G and S is doing in terms of things like having affinity groups.

00:26:07:12 - 00:26:44:13
Speaker 1
Having a, Dei committee. And I think you have, Janus has, both of those, this is an important one and maybe somewhat controversial in some circles, but promotions should impart be tied to the development of diverse talent we speak a lot about. Okay. Oh, we have a committee that's doing this, or we had a workshop on this or we've we've spoken to our, black professionals in our company.

00:26:44:14 - 00:27:09:01
Speaker 1
But how are we holding each other accountable if we really embrace diversity, if it's really important, then maybe part of our is as managers, as supervisors, maybe part of our promotions or our raises should be tied again in part to how we're developing talent. How are we leading? So I think that's particularly important.

00:27:09:07 - 00:27:26:06
Speaker 3
I love just to jump on that really quickly, not to take you off track, but I think it's so important because it is that question of accountability. And that's what's been missing. Now, again, the New York City Human Rights Commission tried to create some years ago, but this question of how do you embed it in your values? But then how do you make that real?

00:27:26:06 - 00:27:44:16
Speaker 3
And what are the KPIs or the key performance indicators for each person as they go? And we do have our task force and we're actually even examining like, should we still call it a task force? Is it how do we look at an ongoing body? We we haven't formed formal affinity groups yet, but many other methods of conversation.

00:27:44:16 - 00:28:04:16
Speaker 3
But I think that question of how do we and we're in our performance review cycle right now, as I talked to you today, it's like, how do we lean into helping managers at all levels understand what it actually means to incorporate the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion as a champion, as advocate, because one of the observations that I have.

00:28:04:16 - 00:28:36:06
Speaker 3
But it's like not surprising. I mean, it's something we've talked about is that bringing talented individuals in from marginalized communities, especially from the black community, because of the unique history of the United States and the unique challenges that we face in this area. To say the least, so deep in the DNA of this country, it's one thing to bring folks in, but it's another to help them feel that they want to stay, you know, and that's that's to me, even I can't you know what?

00:28:36:06 - 00:29:05:03
Speaker 3
I can't prioritize one over the other. They're both so important because we haven't we're making progress in recruiting. I'm just talking about us as the example. I know the best that I want to speak for others, but I certainly know a lot about what's going on other companies. But how how my colleagues who are here, who identify as black in America today, whether they, you know, African American, come, you know, from that history or Caribbean or Africa, you know, wherever blackness is centered in their lives, like how do they feel good about being here?

00:29:05:05 - 00:29:23:11
Speaker 3
That, that that I think is something that I didn't know if we would get to this level of conversation in the corporate world, to tell you the truth, 30 years ago. But I feel like we're starting to have it now. I mean, are you seeing that more too, in terms of retention? And, it may not be the thing that you're engaged in all the time.

00:29:23:11 - 00:29:25:02
Speaker 3
I'm just curious of your thoughts.

00:29:25:04 - 00:30:00:00
Speaker 1
You know, in society in general. And I'll probably talk a little bit about my research, what we're seeing in society, whether you're watching the news, especially when we look at the news media, much of the popular press and even some academic literature point to a bleak picture for the future of race relations. We see so much divisiveness, out in the world, at least that's communicated to us through media.

00:30:00:02 - 00:30:42:00
Speaker 1
But in my opinion, I think the negativity, the divisiveness, the racial tension that we hear is in many ways overstate. It the reason I say it's overstated. We have a tendency to focus on negativity, at least from a media standpoint. I, encourage because I see young people who have inter racial friendships. I see, middle school kids in high school kids who are interacting with other diverse groups on a regular basis.

00:30:42:02 - 00:31:17:06
Speaker 1
When I walk across campus, I see black students and white students sitting down having lunch together, talking about, exams and homework. I see much more inter racial interaction. And I, although we it's the, Bhaskar is the black advertiser strategic communication association. There are number of, diverse students who are part of my organization, whether they're black, white, Hispanic.

00:31:17:12 - 00:31:56:12
Speaker 1
So I guess what I'm saying here is that I'm encouraged because there's a lot more focus, one from academics in many industry folks and being intentional about creating environments that are conducive for, people of color to succeed in. I'm encouraged because young people are much more progressive in their thinking, and it's much more commonplace for them to interact with one another.

00:31:56:14 - 00:32:25:01
Speaker 1
And they're much more open minded, in less close minded. They don't see in many cases. And my research kind of points to this. They know a white person doesn't necessarily among young people don't necessarily see blacks as outgroups. They often see blacks as in-group members because we we look at race and we want to see that, oh, because someone is white and someone's black, they're outgroups.

00:32:25:03 - 00:32:57:23
Speaker 1
But whites, for example, don't always use race as a way of determining similarity or commonality. They oftentimes use things like social class, cuz or occupational cues to determine if one is similar to another. So the reason that outgroup and in-group aspects are important because when you start looking at someone as being different to someone who is being who is an outgroup, you engage in biases.

00:32:58:01 - 00:33:34:18
Speaker 1
It prejudices. So there's something that I call the the ABCs of, understanding key communication processes. And this is particularly important, I think, for corporate America, the ABCs are there needs to be awareness. And what I mean by awareness is be aware of the psychological mechanisms that impact our thoughts about interactions with one another. What that means is when we come across someone, we tend to immediately make similarity judgments.

00:33:34:20 - 00:34:06:00
Speaker 1
We make similarity judgments based on how people look. You know, they're superficial. But if I'm a white person, I see another white person. That person is similar to me. I begin to think that that person is part of my in-group. When I, see someone who doesn't look like me, I kind of see them as an outgroup. And that can be manifested in biases, even though it may not be, it even though may be implicit, there can be biases that causes you to not interact with someone who is different.

00:34:06:01 - 00:34:36:12
Speaker 1
So we need to be intentional about looking and interacting, having conversations with people who look different from us outside of our first impressions, of making these kind of surface and long lasting, impressions, they're often times based on superficiality. Be so there's a awareness. There's be we need to banish bias. And what I mean by that is minimize or banish cross group bias.

00:34:36:12 - 00:35:08:13
Speaker 1
That means how do we do that? We engage in perspective, taking up someone who is different from us. We engage in intergroup contact. That means literally going in, as I said before, having communication, having conversations with someone who is different. You know, what's interesting is people generally overestimate the existence of differences between their own group and those of other groups, even rival groups.

00:35:08:16 - 00:35:35:18
Speaker 1
So we tend to overestimate, you know, differences, for example, that blacks have it whites or whites have with blacks. So we have to be intentional about banishing bias, be aware of our implicit biases, and try our hardest to, be aware of that and to respond to it in the last thing, which is, see, create connections, recognize the power to make positive and meaningful connections between groups.

00:35:35:20 - 00:35:54:02
Speaker 1
Take more time to make meaningful, connections. We need more intentional look beyond, as I kind of alluded to before, look beyond the surface characteristics of others. So a awareness be banish the bias and three create connections.

00:35:54:04 - 00:36:18:05
Speaker 3
This is an amazing way. I mean, first of all, I am so heartened by your very research and data based view of as well as qualitative are being encouraged because I do feel that way as well. And I and I think my big message for everyone is that embrace, you know, and really with an open heart, the fact that you can be making progress and also not be there yet.

00:36:18:05 - 00:36:40:11
Speaker 3
And that's okay. And that's really our industry has been as a whole, very defensive. And sometimes I hear this thing of a wall or doing everything we can. It's like, no, let's just let's hold it more loosely and let's be open hearted about we're making progress. Look at it. But it's not good enough yet. Okay, great. But I love ending with the ABCs.

00:36:40:13 - 00:36:54:01
Speaker 3
And just before we sign off today and thank you for all your time. I mean, I just I love every time we talk, but is there any particular book or reference or website that you might want our listeners to check out, just that you think would be helpful to them?

00:36:54:03 - 00:36:58:14
Speaker 1
Oh man.

00:36:58:16 - 00:37:10:13
Speaker 3
I mean, some of them I know that we've read as a group is for some of us, which was really helpful to understand, sort of the underlying currents of American society. Also. Bias by Jennifer Eberhardt I know that was.

00:37:10:13 - 00:37:36:18
Speaker 1
One you know, a thing to me. I was thinking of that same book that the first one that comes to mind, because I think we need to be aware of the implicit biases that we have and how that can manifest itself in our attitudes and behaviors. So that actually was going to be the book I, would recommend, both because it gives us real understanding of those implicit biases.

00:37:36:20 - 00:37:57:02
Speaker 1
It gives us real research, provides research evidence of how these things really happen. There it isn't just, you know, in the imagination that people have bias. He definitely has them. I have them, you have them. But it's important to be aware of those. So that would be a book. That would be the book that comes to mind.

00:37:57:04 - 00:38:15:07
Speaker 3
Yeah. So that's biased. Everybody can Google it. But doctor essay up here, Ohio State University, The Ohio State University, thank you again so much for being with us today. And, everyone can look for the follow up episode where I get to talk to three of the students from the executive board of Bhaskar. Thank you so much.

00:38:15:07 - 00:38:19:16
Speaker 3
Have a great day.

00:38:19:17 - 00:38:48:16
Speaker 2
We are gas business communications. We are a team of media strategists, storytellers and engagement experts who meet you at the intersection of business and communications. To learn more, visit Gas communications.com. You're listening to Building Brand Gravity, attracting people into your orbit. A business communications podcast. Keep connected with us by subscribing to the show in your favorite podcast player.

00:38:48:21 - 00:39:00:12
Speaker 2
If you like what you've heard, please rate the show that helps us to keep delivering the latest in industry influence. Thanks for listening. Until next time.

00:00:00:10 - 00:00:28:21
Speaker 3
Hello, I'm Anne Green and welcome to Building Brand Gravity. I'm a principal here at Chinese Business Communications, and I'm so pleased to welcome my guests today to the podcast, Doctor Asay Appiah, who is a professor of communication at the Ohio State University. You are a renowned communication and race scholar, who's written and lectured on the impact of strategic communication messages and media on ethnic minorities and the role that stereotypes play on intergroup interaction.

00:00:28:21 - 00:01:00:18
Speaker 3
And boy, that's so timely in our culture today. I think so much so. And you co-edited the book Advertising and Persuasion in a Diverse World and published in tons of academic journals, Journal of Communication, Human Communications Research, many more. And what was really interesting to me about your bio and maybe you can comment on this, is, it talks about helping to demonstrate to mainstream journal editors and reviewers and readers about the importance of race and why race matters in the field of communication.

00:01:00:20 - 00:01:11:12
Speaker 3
And I'm not sure if you just want to comment on that briefly, because I do think that for fronting, that question is so important, especially in the field, that we are both in, in our own ways.

00:01:11:14 - 00:01:43:09
Speaker 1
That's a great question. Thanks for the introduction. And I also want to thank you for having the opportunity to have a conversation with you today on this podcast. It's an honor to be here, and I'm extremely sighted and happy when we when I look at my research, my research centers on interracial interaction, identity, stereotype, and the effects of strategic communication messages on ethnic minorities and, ethnic majorities in my field.

00:01:43:13 - 00:02:24:04
Speaker 1
There have been times where I felt as though race didn't always matter. I would submit research papers to journals and editors or reviewers. For example, I would when I submitted research papers to journals. Oftentimes, the population that I talked about in those research papers were specific to blacks and which I thought is particularly important, but I would oftentimes get reviewers who would comment and say, hey, your research is interesting, but can you provide a comparison group?

00:02:24:06 - 00:03:00:16
Speaker 1
Can you include white populations in your research? Because audiences, are particularly would be particularly interested to know how whites compare with blacks. And to me, it somewhat, dilutes the importance of looking specifically at the black community. In order to publish my research, I was often asked if I felt like I had to incorporate whites into that research in order for it to be seen as significant and important.

00:03:00:18 - 00:03:30:00
Speaker 1
Today, for example, we're talking primarily about, kind of the impact, the empowering thing and cultivating, black talent. And it's not necessarily that we have in this conversation. We have to talk about white talent alongside of black talent. But I feel in my research, in order for me to demonstrate, the importance in my work ahead of the times, using the white comparison group.

00:03:30:04 - 00:04:00:17
Speaker 1
So that makes it particularly challenging to publish in mainstream journals where you have, readers who are overwhelmingly white. So how do you make race important, interesting to audiences who are primarily part of a racial outgroup, which are white? So how do I make talking about blacks important to white mainstream audiences? So that was the challenge.

00:04:00:19 - 00:04:25:13
Speaker 3
That's really helpful. And it had such good context from the very beginning of this conversation about these moments of centering whiteness that are not even, on the radar of many people. You know, that we talk about dominant identities, marginalized identities, and a lot of times those are acting in ways that are subconscious for folks. I think. And what you're saying is really like, well, we have to center whiteness in this, otherwise how will it be relevant?

00:04:25:13 - 00:04:53:11
Speaker 3
So I agree, let's recenter this conversation on black professionals in this industry. And let's let's be really intentional about that. And one of the things we're going to talk about today, and I'll get to in a minute, I have a I have another lead in because there's, there's some stats I want to share with you that aren't going to be very familiar to you, and I'd love to get your take on them to set the stage, but we are going to be talking about a group that you also formed at the Ohio State University called basket of the Black Advertising and Strategic Communications Association.

00:04:53:11 - 00:05:11:16
Speaker 3
And I'm so excited because in a follow up teaser to this podcast, I'm going to get to talk to the basket, some of the basket students. But to back up a little bit, you wrote a paper in 2016 that was published in the Journal of Advertising Education, and the title is fun. Some may recognize the reference here.

00:05:11:16 - 00:05:38:01
Speaker 3
Advertising Industry Diversity. We've kind of come a long way, baby, but larger pipeline and more intentional action from industry and educators needed. And in that, in the very beginning you quoted from the Madison Avenue Project some stats. This is from 2011 that at that time, black individuals represented 13% of the US population, but made up only 5% of the advertising profession.

00:05:38:03 - 00:06:06:06
Speaker 3
So our amazing digital team here at CNS helped me out and did some research and found, the Association of National Advertisers shout out to my former client and the Alliance for Inclusive and Multicultural Marketing just published a study last November and their stats were that black individuals make up 12.1% of the US population. So versus 13, but now are 7.2% of job roles in advertising.

00:06:06:08 - 00:06:30:21
Speaker 3
So, a couple things. We've gone from 5% to 7.2% between 2011 and 2022. Progress but small. And the other thing I would like to say is I recognize that's looking primarily at advertising. My field is a little bit broader lens of marketing communications, but I feel it's very, very comparable. I would feel the numbers are quite we've been a member of the PR Council and I think that would be very similar.

00:06:30:21 - 00:06:46:08
Speaker 3
But what's just to start off, I assume these numbers are not surprising to you. I mean, what is your take on this progress? Evolution? Slow, fast. I mean what what's your reaction to hearing those two bookended together?

00:06:46:10 - 00:07:25:02
Speaker 1
Well, a number of things come to mind. First, there's a, a pressing need. Part of the reason that we're here, you and I are speaking, is that there's a pressing need for companies in partnership with academic institutions to rectify the underrepresentation of blacks in marketing communication firms. And although society has become increasingly more ethnically diverse, the marketing communication industry, in my opinion, has woefully trailed behind in their efforts to diversify the workplace.

00:07:25:04 - 00:07:59:03
Speaker 1
Advertising agencies and other marketing communication firms have, in my opinion, had made little progress in hiring blacks. This is particularly troubling to me, given that, as I kind of alluded to in some of that research from my 2016 paper, that, this problem was really identified, you know, about 40 years ago by the New York, Human Rights Commission, who actually threatened to force executives of a leading ad agency to testify about their dismal record of hiring ethnic minorities.

00:07:59:03 - 00:08:38:08
Speaker 1
Really come up in and explain, hey, why is this the case? What's the problem? How has this how has this occurred? So, given a historical and current dearth of blacks in marketing communication agencies, there was a dire need to create a program that could help to address this problem. Maybe shifted a little bit, in terms of kind of why I started the black advertising as a teacher communication association because of this long history of underrepresentation of blacks in marketing communication.

00:08:38:10 - 00:09:05:08
Speaker 1
Field, if you will. So I know that agencies seek talent with strong educational backgrounds. They want young people to have relevant professional experience and a broad understanding of the industry. And in many ways, that's what we're trying to do with Bask. I created the black advertise, the Strategic Communication Association. About. Well, it wasn't about it was ten years ago.

00:09:05:08 - 00:09:07:18
Speaker 1
In fact, we just recently celebrated our 10th year.

00:09:07:21 - 00:09:11:01
Speaker 3
Happy anniversary. That's amazing. It's a big milestone.

00:09:11:03 - 00:09:48:19
Speaker 1
Thank you very much. I appreciate it. And but basket aims to do is to lead more black students to aspire to and attain, careers in advertising, PR, marketing and other strategic communication related occupations. Bhaskar also provide students with access to professional mentors. Create create opportunities for students to gain professional experience through internships. Despite our limited funding, we've been able to over the last ten years.

00:09:48:21 - 00:10:39:04
Speaker 1
Take Bhaskar, take our basket members. Roughly over 100 of them, for an annual professional development and career networking trips to major cities like New York, Chicago, Atlanta, Washington, DC to meet industry professionals and at these organizations. And we've gone not only to, all the cities we visited, a number of companies such as, on our on the Way, Coca-Cola, the NFL, CNN, Headline News, Ketchum, Edelman, BBDO, Ogilvy and may there, Chicago Tribune, Leo Burnett for rail communications and places like Spotify, Showtime.

00:10:39:04 - 00:11:10:22
Speaker 1
And of course, one of our favorite places was, Genius Communications. So while we were in New York, we were at the, Good Fortune to come to your company and visit. We had a, remarkable time. I should also mention, if I may, that we've also made an imprint here. Locally, busk has been able to build relationships with industry leaders here in the greater Columbus area.

00:11:10:23 - 00:11:59:09
Speaker 1
And many of the industry leaders at companies in the greater Columbus area has helped busker to engage and, engage our members in internship opportunities, resume workshops, life skills. And in addition to that, we have, meetings every, twice a month. And we bring in executives from all over the area here. Bask, in my opinion, has helped black students acquire knowledge, necessary skills and experience, thereby generating a pool of top graduates from which local and national agencies, can choose.

00:11:59:11 - 00:12:26:23
Speaker 1
And in that paper, the 2016 paper, I discuss some of the, for lack of a better word excuse, is that companies have used to explained underrepresentation of ethnic minorities, in particular blacks at the company, at these companies. And what we hear is that all the agencies expressed that they want to hire more ethnic minorities. Many claim they cannot find diverse can.

00:12:26:23 - 00:12:31:01
Speaker 3
Oh, yes. That's been a long time trope that I've heard over the years.

00:12:31:01 - 00:12:37:06
Speaker 1
And my argument is, well, now they can get back is helping to add to that pipeline.

00:12:37:06 - 00:12:56:17
Speaker 3
So, you know, the pipeline piece. And I want to talk about the pipeline because you've helped me deepen my thoughts about it. In reading your work and talking with you, because it's something I've reflected on for a very long time. You know, my background as an undergrad, as a liberal arts person. So I didn't come out of a communications background.

00:12:56:17 - 00:13:37:19
Speaker 3
So I'm sort of an accidental business person, accidental communications executive. But I did encounter in the late 80s, early 90s when I was an English major and a women's studies minor. And I think I mentioned to this to you when we spoke that that was the first time that I realized, as a women's studies, person who really was committed to the concept of feminism, I really ran right up against an immediate and necessary and just life changing critique by authors like Audre Lorde and bell hooks, who made it very clear to me that feminism centered on whiteness could be a social justice movement that was also oppressive and, replicating racism and systemic oppression.

00:13:37:21 - 00:13:56:03
Speaker 3
To get back to the pipeline, you know, I've, I've had a lot of angst as an executive in this field, and I should about this this whole claim of we can't find the talent, where's the talent? And that sort of sense of throwing your hands up in helplessness. And I think I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

00:13:56:03 - 00:14:12:16
Speaker 3
And obviously Basque is one answer, but the other side of it that you brought up to me in your paper is the Academy and the education side, and what it is educational institutions need to do. Do you want to talk about either of those two mentioned, those two sides of the coin?

00:14:12:18 - 00:14:51:22
Speaker 1
I think it's a partnership. And what I mean by partnership, I think it's a partnership between academic institutions and industry that we need to work together to develop and nurture, as you mentioned, cultivate and empower the black talent. The Academy has a responsibility on their side, to increase the interest in the number of majors and strategic communication, related areas.

00:14:52:00 - 00:15:34:17
Speaker 1
What that means is active recruiting and retaining students in those strategic communication related majors. It also means providing a atmosphere and environment that is conducive for those students to succeed, to have a sense of belonging. And certainly specific things that we can do is you there should be student organizations within, the academy, let's say a school of communication should have student organizations that are geared towards ethnic minorities and other community groups, if you will.

00:15:34:17 - 00:16:30:07
Speaker 1
But in this case, we're talking specifically about, blacks who have a black student organization that deals primarily with issues related to the industry, or I should say that is focused on, professional development, like basket. Other things that can be done is having a diversity or Dei committee within the School of Communication, because a Dei committee or some kind of, chief diversity officer within the school, within the department, who can have as their job to embrace diversity, to focus on issues of retention, recruitment and, and also whose responsibility it is to, engage in, connecting with, with students.

00:16:30:09 - 00:17:01:09
Speaker 1
So student organizations, dei committee. It is also important for heavily for academic institutions to reach out to high schools. And a lot of students. When I was growing up, I didn't know anything about advertising, and I didn't know anything about public relations as a kid growing up in Long Beach, California, in a very, you know, indigent, poverty stricken, gang infested environment.

00:17:01:11 - 00:17:30:16
Speaker 1
My what I focused on primarily was, sports in, in playing basketball, academics was very important in my household. My mom and dad valued, academics. But because we had no money, the way in which I felt I needed to get out of that environment and go to college was through sports. So I played basketball, got a scholarship to play basketball at Santa Clara University.

00:17:30:18 - 00:18:02:15
Speaker 1
I apologize, I didn't really go over my my educational background, but it wasn't until I got to college, in effect, to graduate school when I was working on my PhD, that I really learned anything about advertising. And I was, getting my PhD at Stanford University. And I saw that there were some fliers across campus that talked about, a chairman and CEO from an advertising agency was coming to speak at Stanford.

00:18:02:17 - 00:18:32:20
Speaker 1
In fact, he his name is Joe Mewes. He was the chairman and CEO of muse at the time. Was music Darrell and Jen that ultimately turned into music communications. And again, I'm a PC student. I'm probably, I don't know, 25, 26 years old. And I went to go watch him. I went to go listen to his, presentation and he talked about his business.

00:18:32:20 - 00:19:09:00
Speaker 1
He talked about why he started, music direction or Miss Communications, which was a, racially which was a multicultural advertising agency. And there weren't a whole lot of them. We, we had real communications, which has, been the standard historically, but there weren't many of those. And as I listened to him in Hersham talk about how much joy, how much passion he had for advertising in the industry, and as he talked about what advertising was and what it did, it fascinated me.

00:19:09:02 - 00:19:32:03
Speaker 1
So this was really the first time I was able to hear about advertising. And this was coming from a black man, chairman, CEO of an ad agency, and he was black. So at 25, this is kind of my first introduction to advertising outside of watching television. I'm looking at a guy who worked in the industry. I immediately said, you know what?

00:19:32:05 - 00:20:12:15
Speaker 1
This is an area that is open, available and accessible to me because I see someone who looks like me, who's doing it. So I say that in the context of, when you go to high schools, the academy or industry professionals, and you talk to kids about what you do, it informs them not only about the industry, but they not only do they get to know about it, they can start aspiring to careers or occupations that or, that they hear about that they see people who look like them.

00:20:12:16 - 00:20:49:04
Speaker 1
So I think it's important for industry professionals and the academy to go into high schools and talk about advertising, to get young people informed about it and to start aspiring to those careers, I think is particularly important to have, scholarships, within these schools that are specific to, diverse groups and not only specific to diverse groups rewarding in acknowledging ethnic minorities, in particular blacks who are excelling academically in those areas.

00:20:49:06 - 00:21:47:00
Speaker 1
And that's particularly important to acknowledge and to provide, a sense of accomplishment, a sense of reward for those students who are doing well because it lets them know that they can continue on in that field, and it's a rewarding one. So, and the last thing, and I'm sorry to be so long winded, it's important to provide mentors, for young people, to work with academic institutions, as industry professionals, to work with young people who are aspiring to get into com areas and mentor them, help to advise them on the right path, the right journey, let them know what pitfalls they may face in various challenges, but also help them understand

00:21:47:01 - 00:21:55:15
Speaker 1
the benefits of getting into those fields and that, the field is welcoming. It embraces diversity.

00:21:55:17 - 00:22:12:12
Speaker 3
I mean, I would say people talk about a journey, and I think it'll be a big theme of mine. And other leadership this year is trying to kind of erase zero sum thinking. And what I mean by that is that multiple things can be true at one time. We can, as she us be making and have made real progress.

00:22:12:14 - 00:22:37:08
Speaker 3
And we can also be not there yet and also not be great in other areas. You know, there can still be microaggressions or cultural issues or things that we need to work out together. So I really believe that. And one of the areas and I want to talk about this question of representation. You know, one of the things that we know we need to work on over time is representation at the highest levels of our agency, the owner group, the senior leadership.

00:22:37:08 - 00:22:57:16
Speaker 3
And we're really trying to take steps to do that. But there's always that phrase representation matters. And I think in the dialog out in the world today, there's other counterpoints to that or they're not even counterpoints, but there are other threads like diversity isn't enough. We need to get to equity. We need to get to belonging. We need to get to a real sense of inclusion.

00:22:57:17 - 00:23:16:05
Speaker 3
We need to get to justice. Or, you know, we don't want to be in the early days. And this is where all of these debates around affirmative action come in, which get very ugly and are very timely right now. But, you know, what is it about numbers? But what you're saying, and I'd love you to reflect on it more, is that I do feel representation does matter.

00:23:16:05 - 00:23:33:18
Speaker 3
To see yourself in leadership, to see that it's possible, you know, when you talk to your students, how do you think they reflect on seeing pathways through other human beings that share their experience or look like them, or part of a shared identity? How does that affect them, do you think?

00:23:33:20 - 00:24:01:12
Speaker 1
Let me elaborate on some things that companies can do. When we think about kind of representation, how do we get representation? First and foremost, we or industries, partners need to hire more people of color, in particular blacks. That starts off first and foremost with, hiring folks who have experience. Oftentimes, no one's going to get it get hired unless they have some experience.

00:24:01:12 - 00:24:47:02
Speaker 1
How do you get experience? You can't get experience unless you get hired. That happens with, internships. And I know that, internships for students are particularly valuable so that they can gain that experience and hopefully gain, the job within, a company. But so let's think about some things in terms of what companies can do when they can offer mentorship programs, which is something that I talked about before, because mentorship and guidance can help students, go down the right path and, develop experience knowledge that particularly important to be marketable.

00:24:47:02 - 00:25:39:14
Speaker 1
These two companies can advocate for diverse candidates. And I think you and I have had conversations before such that if there are people of color who work at the company, especially blacks, it's important to not only have mentorship, but to have folks in the company who advocate for, folks of color. Oftentimes, I think. This is unfortunate, but in many cases, it's important to have as a black person to have allies who don't look like you, who can advocate for you because in many cases, their comments, their, advocacy in many ways matters more.

00:25:39:14 - 00:26:07:10
Speaker 1
It holds more credibility among white mainstream employees and managers. And so that that's very important tip advocates, who look like you and who don't look like you. Also, it's important to create a workplace that embraces diversity. I mentioned some of the things that, G and S is doing in terms of things like having affinity groups.

00:26:07:12 - 00:26:44:13
Speaker 1
Having a, Dei committee. And I think you have, Janus has, both of those, this is an important one and maybe somewhat controversial in some circles, but promotions should impart be tied to the development of diverse talent we speak a lot about. Okay. Oh, we have a committee that's doing this, or we had a workshop on this or we've we've spoken to our, black professionals in our company.

00:26:44:14 - 00:27:09:01
Speaker 1
But how are we holding each other accountable if we really embrace diversity, if it's really important, then maybe part of our is as managers, as supervisors, maybe part of our promotions or our raises should be tied again in part to how we're developing talent. How are we leading? So I think that's particularly important.

00:27:09:07 - 00:27:26:06
Speaker 3
I love just to jump on that really quickly, not to take you off track, but I think it's so important because it is that question of accountability. And that's what's been missing. Now, again, the New York City Human Rights Commission tried to create some years ago, but this question of how do you embed it in your values? But then how do you make that real?

00:27:26:06 - 00:27:44:16
Speaker 3
And what are the KPIs or the key performance indicators for each person as they go? And we do have our task force and we're actually even examining like, should we still call it a task force? Is it how do we look at an ongoing body? We we haven't formed formal affinity groups yet, but many other methods of conversation.

00:27:44:16 - 00:28:04:16
Speaker 3
But I think that question of how do we and we're in our performance review cycle right now, as I talked to you today, it's like, how do we lean into helping managers at all levels understand what it actually means to incorporate the lens of diversity, equity and inclusion as a champion, as advocate, because one of the observations that I have.

00:28:04:16 - 00:28:36:06
Speaker 3
But it's like not surprising. I mean, it's something we've talked about is that bringing talented individuals in from marginalized communities, especially from the black community, because of the unique history of the United States and the unique challenges that we face in this area. To say the least, so deep in the DNA of this country, it's one thing to bring folks in, but it's another to help them feel that they want to stay, you know, and that's that's to me, even I can't you know what?

00:28:36:06 - 00:29:05:03
Speaker 3
I can't prioritize one over the other. They're both so important because we haven't we're making progress in recruiting. I'm just talking about us as the example. I know the best that I want to speak for others, but I certainly know a lot about what's going on other companies. But how how my colleagues who are here, who identify as black in America today, whether they, you know, African American, come, you know, from that history or Caribbean or Africa, you know, wherever blackness is centered in their lives, like how do they feel good about being here?

00:29:05:05 - 00:29:23:11
Speaker 3
That, that that I think is something that I didn't know if we would get to this level of conversation in the corporate world, to tell you the truth, 30 years ago. But I feel like we're starting to have it now. I mean, are you seeing that more too, in terms of retention? And, it may not be the thing that you're engaged in all the time.

00:29:23:11 - 00:29:25:02
Speaker 3
I'm just curious of your thoughts.

00:29:25:04 - 00:30:00:00
Speaker 1
You know, in society in general. And I'll probably talk a little bit about my research, what we're seeing in society, whether you're watching the news, especially when we look at the news media, much of the popular press and even some academic literature point to a bleak picture for the future of race relations. We see so much divisiveness, out in the world, at least that's communicated to us through media.

00:30:00:02 - 00:30:42:00
Speaker 1
But in my opinion, I think the negativity, the divisiveness, the racial tension that we hear is in many ways overstate. It the reason I say it's overstated. We have a tendency to focus on negativity, at least from a media standpoint. I, encourage because I see young people who have inter racial friendships. I see, middle school kids in high school kids who are interacting with other diverse groups on a regular basis.

00:30:42:02 - 00:31:17:06
Speaker 1
When I walk across campus, I see black students and white students sitting down having lunch together, talking about, exams and homework. I see much more inter racial interaction. And I, although we it's the, Bhaskar is the black advertiser strategic communication association. There are number of, diverse students who are part of my organization, whether they're black, white, Hispanic.

00:31:17:12 - 00:31:56:12
Speaker 1
So I guess what I'm saying here is that I'm encouraged because there's a lot more focus, one from academics in many industry folks and being intentional about creating environments that are conducive for, people of color to succeed in. I'm encouraged because young people are much more progressive in their thinking, and it's much more commonplace for them to interact with one another.

00:31:56:14 - 00:32:25:01
Speaker 1
And they're much more open minded, in less close minded. They don't see in many cases. And my research kind of points to this. They know a white person doesn't necessarily among young people don't necessarily see blacks as outgroups. They often see blacks as in-group members because we we look at race and we want to see that, oh, because someone is white and someone's black, they're outgroups.

00:32:25:03 - 00:32:57:23
Speaker 1
But whites, for example, don't always use race as a way of determining similarity or commonality. They oftentimes use things like social class, cuz or occupational cues to determine if one is similar to another. So the reason that outgroup and in-group aspects are important because when you start looking at someone as being different to someone who is being who is an outgroup, you engage in biases.

00:32:58:01 - 00:33:34:18
Speaker 1
It prejudices. So there's something that I call the the ABCs of, understanding key communication processes. And this is particularly important, I think, for corporate America, the ABCs are there needs to be awareness. And what I mean by awareness is be aware of the psychological mechanisms that impact our thoughts about interactions with one another. What that means is when we come across someone, we tend to immediately make similarity judgments.

00:33:34:20 - 00:34:06:00
Speaker 1
We make similarity judgments based on how people look. You know, they're superficial. But if I'm a white person, I see another white person. That person is similar to me. I begin to think that that person is part of my in-group. When I, see someone who doesn't look like me, I kind of see them as an outgroup. And that can be manifested in biases, even though it may not be, it even though may be implicit, there can be biases that causes you to not interact with someone who is different.

00:34:06:01 - 00:34:36:12
Speaker 1
So we need to be intentional about looking and interacting, having conversations with people who look different from us outside of our first impressions, of making these kind of surface and long lasting, impressions, they're often times based on superficiality. Be so there's a awareness. There's be we need to banish bias. And what I mean by that is minimize or banish cross group bias.

00:34:36:12 - 00:35:08:13
Speaker 1
That means how do we do that? We engage in perspective, taking up someone who is different from us. We engage in intergroup contact. That means literally going in, as I said before, having communication, having conversations with someone who is different. You know, what's interesting is people generally overestimate the existence of differences between their own group and those of other groups, even rival groups.

00:35:08:16 - 00:35:35:18
Speaker 1
So we tend to overestimate, you know, differences, for example, that blacks have it whites or whites have with blacks. So we have to be intentional about banishing bias, be aware of our implicit biases, and try our hardest to, be aware of that and to respond to it in the last thing, which is, see, create connections, recognize the power to make positive and meaningful connections between groups.

00:35:35:20 - 00:35:54:02
Speaker 1
Take more time to make meaningful, connections. We need more intentional look beyond, as I kind of alluded to before, look beyond the surface characteristics of others. So a awareness be banish the bias and three create connections.

00:35:54:04 - 00:36:18:05
Speaker 3
This is an amazing way. I mean, first of all, I am so heartened by your very research and data based view of as well as qualitative are being encouraged because I do feel that way as well. And I and I think my big message for everyone is that embrace, you know, and really with an open heart, the fact that you can be making progress and also not be there yet.

00:36:18:05 - 00:36:40:11
Speaker 3
And that's okay. And that's really our industry has been as a whole, very defensive. And sometimes I hear this thing of a wall or doing everything we can. It's like, no, let's just let's hold it more loosely and let's be open hearted about we're making progress. Look at it. But it's not good enough yet. Okay, great. But I love ending with the ABCs.

00:36:40:13 - 00:36:54:01
Speaker 3
And just before we sign off today and thank you for all your time. I mean, I just I love every time we talk, but is there any particular book or reference or website that you might want our listeners to check out, just that you think would be helpful to them?

00:36:54:03 - 00:36:58:14
Speaker 1
Oh man.

00:36:58:16 - 00:37:10:13
Speaker 3
I mean, some of them I know that we've read as a group is for some of us, which was really helpful to understand, sort of the underlying currents of American society. Also. Bias by Jennifer Eberhardt I know that was.

00:37:10:13 - 00:37:36:18
Speaker 1
One you know, a thing to me. I was thinking of that same book that the first one that comes to mind, because I think we need to be aware of the implicit biases that we have and how that can manifest itself in our attitudes and behaviors. So that actually was going to be the book I, would recommend, both because it gives us real understanding of those implicit biases.

00:37:36:20 - 00:37:57:02
Speaker 1
It gives us real research, provides research evidence of how these things really happen. There it isn't just, you know, in the imagination that people have bias. He definitely has them. I have them, you have them. But it's important to be aware of those. So that would be a book. That would be the book that comes to mind.

00:37:57:04 - 00:38:15:07
Speaker 3
Yeah. So that's biased. Everybody can Google it. But doctor essay up here, Ohio State University, The Ohio State University, thank you again so much for being with us today. And, everyone can look for the follow up episode where I get to talk to three of the students from the executive board of Bhaskar. Thank you so much.

00:38:15:07 - 00:38:19:16
Speaker 3
Have a great day.

00:38:19:17 - 00:38:48:16
Speaker 2
We are gas business communications. We are a team of media strategists, storytellers and engagement experts who meet you at the intersection of business and communications. To learn more, visit Gas communications.com. You're listening to Building Brand Gravity, attracting people into your orbit. A business communications podcast. Keep connected with us by subscribing to the show in your favorite podcast player.

00:38:48:21 - 00:39:00:12
Speaker 2
If you like what you've heard, please rate the show that helps us to keep delivering the latest in industry influence. Thanks for listening. Until next time.

00:00:01:05 - 00:00:25:10
Speaker 3
Hello and welcome to this episode of Building Brand Gravity. I'm Steve Halsey, your host, and with me today is Rob Levick, who's a managing director of the Harris Poll. A little bit about Rob. He's a globally recognized expert on data driven business, society and health care trends. He's regularly interviewed and featured in publications like The Wall Street Journal, Financial Times, Harvard Business Review, and Forbes.

00:00:25:12 - 00:00:48:20
Speaker 3
If that wasn't enough, he's a frequent lecturer and speaker at the Columbia School of Business, the Rotterdam School of Management, Tuck School of Business, and he's the guy that, senior executives and their management teams come to when they're really looking for cutting edge research and analytics to guide their path forward. And Rob's also been based not just in North America, but Europe, in South America.

00:00:48:20 - 00:00:51:10
Speaker 3
Rob, welcome to the program.

00:00:51:12 - 00:01:07:16
Speaker 1
Thanks. Happy to be here, Steve. So, and Edwards is in South Africa, not South America. I have worked at South America as well, but, so that South Africa was, was was kind of the, was home base for, for a while, and a very, you know, exciting and really kind of eye opening in for at a time.

00:01:07:16 - 00:01:11:12
Speaker 3
So were you down in, Cape Town or were you in Johannesburg?

00:01:11:14 - 00:01:28:09
Speaker 1
We were. We were actually based out of, Pretoria. We worked for, for a most of, I think, the largest companies in South Africa, but also one of the biggest clients was the government. So we were between Pretoria and Cape Town because you have this whole kind of rotation of parliament. Quite a lot. In addition to Jo'burg.

00:01:28:09 - 00:01:36:18
Speaker 1
Jo'burg is really kind of the commercial capital. So if we if you're talking about banking or mining, or a variety of other industries, it's really kind of a central hub.

00:01:36:20 - 00:02:05:03
Speaker 3
Well, and I think with that basis of, of global, that's really got to make kind of your perspective and your council unique because you've been in the different regions, you've been in the different territories, you've really seen the dynamics, not just from a US multinational perspective, but really how the issues play in region. So so that's got to be, a really compelling voice that you can bring to the discussion.

00:02:05:05 - 00:02:24:05
Speaker 1
Yeah. And, and honestly, a really great set up for, for today's discussion as we're talking about things like ESG and sustainability, which can actually have quite different connotations, in, in different markets. And especially when you, when you even go out of, the English language, you know, the term ESG doesn't really mean much if you're if you're not, kind of an English first speaker.

00:02:24:07 - 00:02:43:11
Speaker 3
Excellent. Well, yeah, I'm really interested. Get into that. Before we really get rolling on that, maybe you can tell me a little bit about about the Harris Poll. I know you've been leading a lot of the research in the area of sustainable and and consulting, C-suite on that. But but tell me what's new with Harris?

00:02:43:13 - 00:03:04:12
Speaker 1
The question is, what's not new? It's a Harris. Steve. I'm joking, of course. Right now, I mean, we're, we we've been we've been around for for a long time over 50 years, doing really opinion leading polling, have worked, you know, the Harris poll and a lot of our leaders have worked in politics, for a for a very a number of presidents and prime ministers.

00:03:04:14 - 00:03:24:07
Speaker 1
So, you know, Tony, Tony Blair in the UK, in the US for, for JFK, for Reagan. But right now, kind of the, the core focus of, of the organization is really not politics. It's very much around kind of what's happening in society, what's happening in business. And in particular, how do we how can we enable and help?

00:03:24:09 - 00:03:51:08
Speaker 1
Companies, brands and organizations just be much more effective in, in leveraging their brand and reputation as a real kind of business asset, for moving the ball constructively forward, which is, again, it's it's never been, it's never been more important. Right? As, as you're looking at these intersections of, you know, societal issues, massively changing economic, shifts, political shifts, national security and geopolitical shifts.

00:03:51:10 - 00:04:17:04
Speaker 1
And then kind of the, you know, the the pulse behind all of our work is really how do you bring kind of technology and digital to the forefront of everything? Everything's moving just so fast these days. And if you're not, like, finding the intersection between kind of, you know, core market research with a key stakeholder to, integrating with digital data, whether it's third party or third party data, to to understand how things are moving, to really getting into those intersections with digital, you're, you're you're missing part of the picture.

00:04:17:05 - 00:04:23:08
Speaker 1
Right. Which and blind spots they are. You know, they're not kind of like a trip in many cases. They're they're more of a flop.

00:04:23:11 - 00:04:47:22
Speaker 3
Well, what what I find interesting about how you talk about where your focus is right now at, at the Harris Ball is a lot of that really fits squarely in, kind of traditional definition of sustainability, which is kind of like the three legged stool of society, things like standard of living, you know, jobs, equal opportunity economics, which was all about gross profit, cost savings, things like that.

00:04:48:00 - 00:05:09:11
Speaker 3
And then the environs, MIT when you're thinking about biodiversity, pollution prevention, those type of things. But what's interesting is, you know, you talk about where a lot of the intersections of these, you know, that's where you're seeing between, you know, the social, economic aspects are business ethics, fair trades coming in. You look at the environmental, economic kind of area.

00:05:09:11 - 00:05:35:19
Speaker 3
And that's where energy efficiency, renewable fuels, green tech fits social. Environmental is kind of where your conservation policy, environmental justice. So there's a lot packed into this concept of sustainability. But then you have ESG, you know, the environmental, social and governance, which really covers a wide range of things that may have direct or indirect impact on a business.

00:05:35:19 - 00:06:10:06
Speaker 3
You know, things like resource management, supply chain management, health and safety policies, building trust through transparency. And if that's not enough, then you have the concept of ESG investing, which is socially responsible investing approach in a companies that score well in ESG. So I guess my question for, for our listeners is where do we start or where where do communicators need to, ground their bases for a discussion about sustainability or ESG?

00:06:10:08 - 00:06:29:13
Speaker 1
Next simple question. Thanks. Do you, I think that, you know, what you're laying out is just the the whole kind of tapestry and ecosystem around ESG and sustainability. So if we're going back into to, to the past and we're looking at kind of the evolution of a lot of sustainability trends, it's very much an environmental trend, right?

00:06:29:13 - 00:06:54:08
Speaker 1
It's around kind of resource allocation. Is there an impact on on the environment? And really building that into business processes and addressing it? What you're seeing now, whether you're talking about ESG or sustainability, and I'll talk a little bit about separation between those, one of the biggest shifts that, I would hope that all listeners leave this call or this, this discussion from is or with is, is just around employees as being kind of a central piece of it.

00:06:54:10 - 00:07:16:10
Speaker 1
Right. So employees both in terms of being able to actually execute the strategy, of your business strategy with kind of sustainability as a core enabler to be able to execute and implement that. But then also in terms of employees as, as really kind of a clear depiction and showcase, of what you're doing around sustainability and, and, and ESG.

00:07:17:16 - 00:07:38:09
Speaker 3
Well, and it's it's interesting that you start with employees because at least based on my experience as a, as a communicator, you know, over the last two decades, it's been very much about outward facing communications. You know, what do we say to the NGOs? What do we talk about customers? Can we use this as an advantage of claiming a first to a market?

00:07:38:09 - 00:07:47:22
Speaker 3
But what you're talking about is something much more core, almost looking at sustainability as part of a company's DNA. Did I get that right?

00:07:47:23 - 00:08:09:17
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's it's spot on. So it's, you know, that the piece you're talking about is most certainly mission critical, but it's employees. If employees don't believe what you're saying, the NGOs or if it's not part of their like their understanding of your strategy, the the training, the resources that they have at their disposal. Then you're going to have a big mismatch.

00:08:09:19 - 00:08:21:23
Speaker 1
And then also, if you're not bringing in how you're enabling, helping, supporting, empowering employees into part of the discourse with those external audiences, that's also a big miss.

00:08:22:01 - 00:08:47:19
Speaker 3
So you you recently the Harris Poll recently, worked with University of Pittsburgh, if I understand correct. Really looking at what you described as a sustainability culture gap really kind of in, in I believe it was actually called the last mile sustainability culture gap. Can you tell me a little bit about that? I mean, it sounded like there was a pretty big disconnect between your front line workers and what managers thought about sustainability.

00:08:47:21 - 00:09:04:19
Speaker 1
Yeah. No, I, I love this. We're getting to, to kind of the, the root cause of the matter because there's I mean they're all they're all these kind of broader consumer trends impact on inflation that we can also talk about. But the the crux of the matter really does translate into this piece. And that that last mile gap is, is one of the most substantial pieces.

00:09:04:20 - 00:09:44:19
Speaker 1
So we've been working with, the University of Pittsburgh, the business school, at the, at the business school, there's, the center for Sustainable, Sustainable Business. Is is really one of the leading kind of, think tanks and organizations looking at, looking at sustainability and really kind of how do you turn it into and execute it as a strategy, where a lot of the focus of, of, of the research that that we worked on was actually came, from one of the leading professors, kind of, academic research as well as, a recent book that he wrote, which was, specifically around kind of employee focus and called Small

00:09:44:19 - 00:10:08:18
Speaker 1
actions big difference. So one of the things we looked at is, is really just understanding where are companies today. And both and there's really kind of three phases, like in terms of being able to incubate a strategy, launch a strategy, and really an entrenched strategy. But without getting too deep into all those details just yet, one of the, one of the biggest takeaways was, was absolutely in terms of kind of the last mile gap.

00:10:08:20 - 00:10:28:16
Speaker 1
So if you're working in corporate, if you're in in much more of kind of that central setting, you, you have a much better understanding of what's happening with the strategy. You feel much, much more set up, much better resourced, much better trained to actually be able to execute. And you're seeing much more of an integration into the culture.

00:10:28:18 - 00:10:45:10
Speaker 1
If you're at the, at the front lines, in many cases in, in call centers or kind of at the front touch of customers, you, you're not really seeing that that same kind of impact point. I'll say overall, we're it's still very much a journey and work in progress of the numbers are not off the charts startling.

00:10:45:14 - 00:11:16:11
Speaker 1
But there is a very substantive gap between kind of corporate and the front lines. And that's a that's a really big takeaway in terms of not just setting a strategy and kind of talking about the strategy to middle managers, but really being able to get to how do we operationalize this in a way that it builds the programs that we need to bring in the right front line staff and enables our front line staff to be upskilled, in ways that that really enable them to execute, make them feel empowered to execute, and really celebrate that execution.

00:11:16:13 - 00:11:29:13
Speaker 3
So so, Rob, you were talking about ESG and sustainability, and we're at a real kind of inflections change at corporations. And then even how we communicate. Can you can you tell me a little bit about that?

00:11:29:15 - 00:11:51:13
Speaker 1
Yeah. So when you're thinking of the inflection point that we're at, there's there's really two core components to it. One is the the evolving definition of sustainability, in the minds of kind of society at large, consumers, employees, virtually everyone, where historically it is much more about just the environment. Now you have a much bigger emphasis on communities, but in particular employees.

00:11:51:13 - 00:12:18:14
Speaker 1
Employees are very much kind of a central theme in terms of being able to showcase, impact on sustainability. And that in particular, we're looking at consumer research, some of which we just recently published with, with the Conference Board, you can see a lot of, employee factors. Around kind of wage and treatment as being kind of core components to, sustainability as, as very much kind of like a market mover and a driver of, of preference.

00:12:18:16 - 00:12:45:23
Speaker 1
Or, you know, the opposite of, if you will, in parallel to that, you have the the evolution of ESG. And in particular, when we think of ESG, it's it's the reporting aspect of it, of of it that becomes really important for companies, predominantly because as you have a variety of different, you know, financial institutions, boards, governing bodies such as the SEC starting to kind of lay out a path to reporting.

00:12:46:04 - 00:13:03:03
Speaker 1
It now becomes something that everybody has to have top of mind versus can can consider whether they should or they shouldn't. So whether you're in, you know, operations, marketing, communications or if you're the CEO or the CFO, you really need to be able to get to the heart of the matter in terms of what what kind of data do we have?

00:13:03:03 - 00:13:13:22
Speaker 1
What is it telling us? And then how do we pull that together in terms of looking at our at our business strategy and at the broader positioning and forward looking prospects of, of our organization?

00:13:14:00 - 00:13:39:10
Speaker 3
Yeah, it's kind of interesting. And as you describe, you know, kind of the employees, really that kind of cultural connection, you talk about alignment with the strategy and purpose of the corporation. Then you talk about external reporting. That puts the issue of sustainability right at the heart. What the chief communications officer does within a corporation. So how should a chief communications officer move forward?

00:13:39:10 - 00:13:47:19
Speaker 3
And is it different if they're in a B2B company than a B2C company, and in how they communicate and tell this story of sustainability?

00:13:47:21 - 00:14:14:06
Speaker 1
It's a great question. And unfortunately, there's no silver bullet answer. Steve. I think it's for for some companies, you're probably feeling ahead of the curve if you're in a B2B company, and especially one that's been, you know, very focused on things like construction and manufacturing, in many cases, you know, you're you may be ahead of the curve because companies have actually been investing in it because they can actually see substantial efficiencies built on it.

00:14:14:06 - 00:14:32:23
Speaker 1
They can actually you can actually build just a much more sustainable business by the by a focus on sustainability. As you're looking at kind of the evolution of a lot of these topics and, you know, there are some companies do have a chief sustainability officer, some don't, some have chief communications officers, some have chief corporate affairs officers.

00:14:33:01 - 00:14:55:19
Speaker 1
So as we're thinking of the CEO and a lot of these other titles in particular, there's a really big opportunity, right. And the opportunity can be taken from any one of those vantage points. But, one one of the key ones is certainly the chief communications officer. In some cases, you have individuals who have both communications and sustainability under their portfolio.

00:14:55:21 - 00:15:18:16
Speaker 1
Right? In those cases, you're not just communicating about sustainability, but you're really foundationally creating an operational organization for that. Being able to collect all the data, interpret it, make sure it's making sense, make sure that that whole process is evolving as the business is evolving, and then also telling the story about what it means and building a strategy around that.

00:15:18:18 - 00:15:49:17
Speaker 1
Right. That's going to be the role of some chief communications officers, right? And most certainly going to be, part of the role for many chief corporate affairs officers. In other instances, it's very much around how do you create a very deep partnership with sustainability and operations, if you're the chief communications officer? So you can really get to the heart of the story versus just, you know, figuring out where the story needs to go and doing some kind of rounding of the of the corners of the story.

00:15:49:19 - 00:16:11:04
Speaker 1
So I think there's a lot of plays and just depending on the kind of company you're in and how deep sustainability is already embedded. So I mean, there's certain organizations like if you're at Unilever, you know, certainly there's, you know, there's a chief sustainability officer who is extraordinarily, deeply embedded in the whole organization that's going to be somebody you partner with versus that at other organizations where this whole concept is still very nascent.

00:16:11:06 - 00:16:28:17
Speaker 1
There are still major opportunities for, for example, chief communications officers to take a much more of a leadership role that moves, beyond just kind of brand and communications and much deeper in terms of, kind of operational sustainability, responsibilities.

00:16:28:19 - 00:16:55:16
Speaker 3
So, so what has been the most surprising finding to you in all the research you've done with this, either whether it's, you know, the, the adoption rate, whether it's this, last mile gap that you talk about, you'd mentioned earlier that even the use and the thinking about ESG and non-English speaking, countries is very different, what with all of this myriad of data and analytics.

00:16:55:16 - 00:17:02:13
Speaker 3
You're looking at what what are the things that you found most interesting or surprising?

00:17:02:14 - 00:17:08:20
Speaker 1
Now I'm going to focus in on your question as kind of like, what do I think is the biggest blind spot? How about that?

00:17:08:22 - 00:17:12:10
Speaker 3
There we go. What? So so what's our biggest blind spot out there?

00:17:12:10 - 00:18:03:15
Speaker 1
Rob I think the biggest blind spot is really being able to understand both what's happening in terms of financial reporting, right. Where the financial reporting aspect of it is, there's stuff coming with 100% certainty, but it's going to be a relatively or most likely a relatively slow roll to to start. Right. You're actually, in most cases, the predominant focus areas for for, for that reporting are, are most likely to be kind of like scope one and scope two emissions and much more kind of environmentally focused, which basically what that means is it's around, you know, their direct impact of your operations and, and, you know, electricity and things like that.

00:18:03:17 - 00:18:36:14
Speaker 1
Right? Your what that precludes or doesn't include is the big impact points. Right. So the net far reaching impact, which is you're getting it to into scope three or beyond. So reporting is going to be based most likely to start on much more of a scope one or scope two. So you're actually going to see a lot of organizations, theoretically doing quite well on some of those that may not like, you're going to have energy companies that are really good at just figuring out how to do the reporting, who may actually be scoring very highly on those things.

00:18:36:16 - 00:19:01:18
Speaker 1
Right. Although you could argue that their broader kind of environmental impact is, you know, has has a lot more kind of like deficiencies or potential negative impacts and things like that. Right? Well, at the same time, when you're looking at kind of building the story, building the brand, building the strategy and executing the strategy, a lot of it is kind of net societal impact focused.

00:19:01:20 - 00:19:38:12
Speaker 1
Right? So you really need to be able to bridge both of those things and create kind of that whole continuum. Right? So getting really, really good at reporting because that's going to have a direct impact on operations. Financials, integrations, the CFO into the CEO. And then also building off of that continuum into really high impact, meaningful, initiative based storytelling that really showcases the impact your having on employees, on communities, on the future.

00:19:38:14 - 00:20:11:03
Speaker 3
Yeah. And one of the things I think has been really interesting in this discussion is really how you've been talking about the changing or evolving definition of sustainability to really be more on the the social side and relationship with employees. Yeah. I mean, I, I just think that that's, that's that's fascinating. And so I guess the question is, as we think about corporate strategy and how you move forward, how does this then impact corporate purpose and how brands need to think about their own purpose?

00:20:11:05 - 00:20:38:17
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's a fantastic question, Steve. So when you think of, I think, a reasonable model to be thinking about sustainability as well as ESG as kind of like pathways for both, reporting on measuring and creating impact around purpose. Right. So purpose is very much around kind of like the top line, you know, structure, positioning. This is where we're pointing, this is how we're going to do it.

00:20:38:19 - 00:21:02:15
Speaker 1
A lot of what we're seeing around ESG and around sustainability, to really create those pathways for being able to kind of credibly execute as your business as well, because the expectations around these things are going to be very different. If you're an energy company versus a financial services company versus a manufacturing or construction company versus a tech company, right?

00:21:02:17 - 00:21:38:11
Speaker 1
So it does create a lot of, the level of detail when you think of breaking down sustainability and ESG provides a lot of really good data flows and pathways to to build very compelling storytelling. And I think actually it's going to be a liberator for, for a lot of communicators, right? When you're when, you know, from, from my experience, some of if some of the best communicators that are most frustrated that that you know, that I know that I've worked with are when there really isn't a clear enough business strategy.

00:21:38:13 - 00:22:11:06
Speaker 1
Right, and there's not really enough kind of business direction and action to build a very compelling brand engagement initiatives versus where you have more of a clear strategy, and you have a lot of those data points that support it. And you can see that investors are understanding where this stuff is pointing. Then suddenly it opens up massive opportunities for for communications, for marketing the brand building, for thought leadership, right, where you can really add that next layer.

00:22:11:11 - 00:22:24:10
Speaker 1
That makes it a much more dynamic, compelling, credible story, right, versus just kind of, you know, tweaking language in a speech or a newsletter or a press release.

00:22:24:12 - 00:22:49:04
Speaker 3
So, so if you make meaningful change, what are the ripple effects on on the different industries. Right. So you've talked about tech or health care and you counter pose that even with, say the food industry and the supply chain there, if you make really good progress, how does that how does that impact others? How does that change the bar that they're being held to?

00:22:49:06 - 00:22:52:15
Speaker 1
Do you mean competitors or do you mean society?

00:22:52:17 - 00:23:14:16
Speaker 3
Actually both, but primarily, primarily look at competitors. You know, there's the old saying, hey, we can do well by doing good, but if you do that, does it force meaningful change with competitors or does it does it really create a situation where each competitor is going to look at their business strategy and say, how can I be most competitive?

00:23:14:16 - 00:23:18:05
Speaker 3
Not how can I be most sustainable?

00:23:18:07 - 00:23:55:04
Speaker 1
I think the two things are intertwined. So that's the it's again, a great question as you look at sustainability and. Your ability to get into the organization, both to go deep into understanding what's happening. And then also because of a lot of the evolving reporting standards, have to be able to elevate that and communicate it externally for, again, just for financial purposes, for board purposes, etc. that creates, I think it's going to create a new competitive landscape because you're going to have a lot more of this information that that's publicly available.

00:23:55:04 - 00:24:38:22
Speaker 1
So there's going to be a new lens for for competitive positioning. And it's going to you know, to a large degree, enable companies to understand, how others are operating and what's making them, you know, tick and work better or not better. Also, at the same time, it should also operate, open up really new opportunities for distinction and differentiation as you start digging into how a lot of these things work at your company, you're going to find out that there are some really new, unique, different components of, your supply chain, your key stakeholders, what what the frontline employees look and feel like there's going to be huge opportunities to to be, you

00:24:38:22 - 00:24:51:17
Speaker 1
know, really be able to create a lot more distinction based off of, you know, how your culture actually manifests itself around things like executing on sustainability, on ESG.

00:24:51:19 - 00:25:18:07
Speaker 3
Well. And what I think is interesting is, you know, there's all the positive business factors, but there's also, I'm sure you're seeing within companies kind of the inertia or resistance to change that says if we take actions that are more sustainable, one, we may pick up higher costs in the short term, but it also may make our customers by less or not by something that's been a key driver for the business.

00:25:18:07 - 00:25:24:04
Speaker 3
I mean, are you seeing that that is a real challenge that businesses are facing.

00:25:24:06 - 00:25:54:07
Speaker 1
That's a major challenge. Absolutely. So you're also getting to maybe where, you know, this conversation can start in a lot of different places. But one of the most important things to also understand right now, in the US, also in other markets, but really in the US, the hyper politicization and polarization of a lot of this. Right? Especially the kind of the term ESG and especially as you look at the last call it 6 to 8 months in the US, you've had a a huge amount of politicization around that.

00:25:54:09 - 00:26:25:10
Speaker 1
And, you know, as you have those, as you have the intersection between a company, society, politics, you very quickly get into kind of geopolitical and also broader competitiveness issues. So, and this is, you know, part of it really comes down to like, how is your organization working? Where is its supply chain? To what degree are, you know, certain markets or, or countries subsidizing, certain subsidizing certain industries.

00:26:25:12 - 00:26:57:07
Speaker 1
So there's suddenly you start getting pulled into a ton of complexity, especially as you're pulling in like, a country like China. Right? Both in terms of for for most companies, it's a substantial part of your supply chain on at least certain aspects of your business. And then on on the flip side of it is, as you're thinking of, you know, Chinese companies evolving in a lot of spaces and you're thinking like about intellectual property as you're thinking about, just overall kind of subsidies and competitiveness.

00:26:57:09 - 00:27:19:16
Speaker 1
This can have massive impacts when you're when you're thinking about, how do I get for some companies, you know, incur more cost to get this stuff kind of, you know, moving, if you will. Right. What I will say is that the big part of it, that's one of the big change agents here, is the fact that you're going to have, it's going to be now a financial requirement.

00:27:19:18 - 00:27:40:09
Speaker 1
So there's going to be an expectation from financial markets that you're going to need to be spending more on these things. And there's, you know, again, you're going to have to be very judicious about how you're positioning that aspect of it, what you're spending and how you're investing. But that's going to become part of your strategy. Right. And the financial markets are going to expect it because they know you're going to have to be reporting on it.

00:27:40:11 - 00:27:51:10
Speaker 1
So that, again, is one of the one of the big changes. That's that's enabling change. But it all those other dynamics I just mentioned are real, real things. If you're in tech, if you're in manufacturing, if you're an energy.

00:27:51:12 - 00:28:22:07
Speaker 3
So when, when you're, when you're asked by these, major companies to come in and consult on sustainability, what are they asking you to do? Is this something that is an outcrop of, discussions about reputation and brand? Is are these very specific studies that they want to do to kind of gauge where the market is, is there is there kind of a common way that that people say, hey, I really need to reach out to the Harris Poll to help me, figure out the path forward or the strategy around these.

00:28:22:11 - 00:28:24:13
Speaker 3
This topic.

00:28:24:14 - 00:28:44:22
Speaker 1
And it's a great question. I think, for, for a lot of companies, they're still very much at the inflection point of figuring out how they're going to be dealing with, with sustainability. In most cases in work that we're doing. So, for example, if we're doing work around corporate brand and reputation, it's inherently a cross stakeholder, cross-functional program, right?

00:28:45:00 - 00:29:08:10
Speaker 1
Because of that, it's sustainability is almost always one of the key stakeholders in the mix. So increasingly, one of the things we have been seeing is more sustainability leaders, especially ones who are broadening their profiles or who have broader profiles, where sustainability is coming in, where it's it's becoming a much deeper and more specific aspect to the work.

00:29:08:12 - 00:29:35:07
Speaker 1
And what I mean by that is going much deeper into, again, this differs depending on who the what, what industry you're in. It's really digging deep into a lot of the experts in, in those domains. Yeah, it's going to look the experts when you think of sustainability as it pertains to energy versus tech versus financial services are actually quite different in terms of it being more of like, for example, environmental versus social profile as examples.

00:29:35:09 - 00:29:57:10
Speaker 1
But you have to go you're going much deeper into, into those stakeholder groups. And then also going much deeper into, into the core issues for, for that organization. And that's both in terms of, again, understanding how it works at your company, how it translates from operations, but then also how it manifests itself in terms of programing, positioning, and messaging as a huge aspect of it.

00:29:57:11 - 00:30:24:21
Speaker 1
Right? I, I was like, I can't understate the level of the level of, jargon around this space is, remarkable. And, you know, again, the reason for that is, is that you have it's still, to a large degree, a very insider conversation. So a lot of that jargon makes sense to insiders. But it's a very big problem if you're trying to communicate more broadly, even with policymakers, if you don't get to simple, straightforward language, that's pretty clear about what you're doing.

00:30:25:02 - 00:30:33:00
Speaker 1
You're going to lose a lot of people. And in many cases, they're going to think you're actually obfuscating. Even if you have the right intentions and you're doing a lot of the right things.

00:30:33:02 - 00:31:05:15
Speaker 3
Well. And I could definitely see when we were talking earlier about, the employee connections and getting employees to believe if you're doing a lot of jargon, it can feel like you're not really making a meaningful impact. And I also thought it was interesting going back to when you talked about the blind spots of really that need for the financial reporting and what scope you got and really what you were just talking about now, which is how do you build a, story and a brand that really is talking about the net societal impact.

00:31:05:17 - 00:31:18:23
Speaker 3
So I guess my question, Rob, where do we go from here? What what what do corporate communicators and marketers need to leave this podcast and say, what are if there's three things I'm going to do, what are those three things?

00:31:19:01 - 00:31:46:22
Speaker 1
First and foremost, just get your head around what sustainability means at your company. And what I mean by that is understanding what the impact points are, right? And getting your head around kind of like the data that exists or the data that should exist. So if not leading the charge, getting involved in the group that is setting up for where a lot of the SEC reporting is going to go, just really getting your head deeply around what's available, what's happening and what is going to be needed.

00:31:47:00 - 00:32:15:09
Speaker 1
Otherwise, you're going to have a major blind spot as for example, if you're working in in marketing or communications. The second thing very much is going to be really around rethinking how you think about employees. So they are kind of like that two sided piece of you're not going to be able to execute your strategy unless you get buy in from the employees, and they understand what you're trying to do.

00:32:15:11 - 00:32:52:04
Speaker 1
And, and they actually have the tools, resources and training to, to do it. And at the same time making sure that they become a core part of your external kind of showcase of, of, of making progress. So employee is just a mission critical piece of it. And then the last part of it is, you know, how do you really turn it into a really kind of unique, distinctive driver of your positioning across constituencies, from investors to policymakers to customers, to your supply chain?

00:32:52:06 - 00:33:09:22
Speaker 3
Those those are really, really good tangible points that I think our listeners can put into practice. Rob, anything else that we need to think about on the topic of, of sustainability? It's a light, easy, uncomplicated thing to deal with, right?

00:33:10:00 - 00:33:36:17
Speaker 1
The again, it's as you think of whatever blind spot you have right now, your competitors and a lot of others have that blind spot as well. So your opportunity to move faster right now is, is a major one, primarily because you're going to be forced at some point by the financial markets. So your ability to get ahead of this stuff will turn into an actual business competitive advantage.

00:33:36:18 - 00:34:01:21
Speaker 1
Right. The closer you're in understanding how this works at your company, what is available, what are the things we're doing well? What are the things we're doing poorly? The more quickly it will kind of elevate your ability to be a real business, you know, consultant and and really enabling better business decision making. If you're in, for example, communications or marketing.

00:34:01:23 - 00:34:17:16
Speaker 1
So again, just a really big opportunity. And it's, it's a really kind of a once in a generation inflection point. Right? This is the first time ever you're going to have real kind of like financial reporting. And it's again, it's it's going to be scope one. Scope two. It's not going to be crazy, but it's coming. And you have to be prepared.

00:34:17:16 - 00:34:31:02
Speaker 1
And there's a massive opportunity to turn it into much more of a competitive business asset and which by by that can really become a really key distinctive positioning point for, for your brand and reputation.

00:34:31:04 - 00:34:54:23
Speaker 3
So as I take, kind of the summary of our conversation, you know, key things that really stick out to me are being at an inflection point, being aware of your blind spots and really thinking about sustainability as a as a business strategy. Rob, thank you so much for joining us on, on building brand gravity, everybody. We had Rob Yak Yelich, the managing director of the Harris Poll.

00:34:55:01 - 00:35:05:00
Speaker 3
You can find him by looking up Harris poll on the internet. He's also on LinkedIn as Rob K. Rob, thanks again for sharing your insights with us today.

00:35:05:01 - 00:35:10:03
Speaker 1
Thanks for having me. Steve is a pleasure.

00:35:10:05 - 00:35:39:04
Speaker 2
We are gas business communications. We are a team of media strategists, storytellers and engagement experts who meet you at the intersection of business and communications. To learn more, visit g s communications.com. You're listening to Building Brand Gravity, attracting people into your orbit. AG Business Communications podcast. Keep connected with us by subscribing to the show in your favorite podcast player.

00:35:39:09 - 00:35:50:18
Speaker 2
If you like what you've heard, please rate the show that helps us to keep delivering the latest in industry influence. Thanks for listening. Until next time.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:01
Speaker 1
There are three typical types of crisis those with a victim, those that are accident, and those that are preventable. Learn about these and how to manage your trust. With doctor Lashonda Eddie. In the next episode of Building Brand Gravity.

00:00:22:03 - 00:00:53:07
Speaker 2
You are listening to building brand Gravity, attracting people into your orbit. A Gas Business communications podcast. This is a show for communication pros across industries looking to gain an inside view into industry influence. You're about to hear a conversation with leading industry professionals talking about the importance of building business impact through sound brand strategy. Let's get into the show.

00:00:53:09 - 00:01:16:14
Speaker 1
Hello and welcome to this next episode. I'm Steve Halsey, one of your hosts, and with me today is Doctor Lashonda Eddie. She has her PhD, a PR, she's an assistant professor of public relations at Penn State, a senior research fellow with Arthur Paige Center, and much, much more. Doctor Eddie, welcome and thank you for joining us here today.

00:01:16:16 - 00:01:20:10
Speaker 3
Thank you, Steve, for having me. I'm looking forward to this conversation.

00:01:20:11 - 00:01:44:12
Speaker 1
I am too, and, you know, you're really in a pretty unique spot as we think about our profession. A very noted crisis history expert. You really focus on how you build a bridge between theory and practice. You've been really widely published, a frequent speaker on the topic and. Yeah, I guess let's let's start there. How did you end up being a crisis history expert?

00:01:44:12 - 00:01:49:15
Speaker 1
And what is it that really makes this such a passionate area for you?

00:01:49:17 - 00:02:10:03
Speaker 3
Well, I think I'll back up to why I'm in academe at all first, and I'll try to make it fast. But thinking back to my undergraduate days at the University of Tennessee, go Vols as a student, I was very passionate about the public relations, excited to get out into the industry. But I also knew that one day I wanted to be a professor.

00:02:10:08 - 00:02:38:10
Speaker 3
Back then, I thought that I would work my way up the corporate ladder, become a CC0 or CMO, that my kids would be grounding out of the house. And then I would have, you know, be a professor as a second career as well as, you know, things don't always go as planned. And so, I didn't quite make it to that position, but what I when I was able to do was work in the industry for a number of years for some really great companies, get some wonderful experience.

00:02:38:15 - 00:03:01:12
Speaker 3
And then once I got my masters and had to write a thesis, I even plan to go back into the industry then. But once I wrote the thesis, I said, oh my goodness, I don't think I could write a dissertation later. I have to do it now. And so fortunately, I was able to then get my doctorate, and once I did that, I was like, okay, so maybe there's a way for me to still be in the industry, but to stay in academe as well.

00:03:01:12 - 00:03:30:21
Speaker 3
And so I'm really fortunate that I was able to find the kind of the sweet spot for me, which, as you were saying, is kind of this position where I really try to do all I can to bridge the gap not only between theory and practice, but also between academe and the industry, because I think that is more, broadly kind of what the whole issue is, because oftentimes I think professionals think, you know, there's the old adage it says, oh, that works in theory, but not in practice.

00:03:30:23 - 00:03:58:20
Speaker 3
And sometimes that might be true. But being on the academic side and knowing what the theories are and some of the work that's being done, more often than not, a lot of the theory and the scholarly work can actually help professionals and chief communicators do their job better. But I also think that us as academics don't do a great job, usually, of really getting our research insights into digestible bites and sharing it with the people who can actually use it.

00:03:59:02 - 00:04:26:17
Speaker 3
You know, just because it ends up in one of the top scholarly journals doesn't mean that the people who can use the information other than researchers are going to get it there. And so for me, that's really what I try to do with all of my research. Even in the classroom, I try to help my students as to future public relations professionals of tomorrow, I try to help them see how the theories that I'm sharing with them, how the research that I'm doing directly relates to also what we're talking about.

00:04:26:19 - 00:04:52:04
Speaker 3
That's happening day to day in the news, you know, the crises that we were seeing so that hopefully when they get out of the Penn State walls, that they are also start to incorporate some of that insight that can even just inform their strategy even more. And for the crisis history piece, the way that I got interested in crisis history is that, there's, one of the prevailing crises.

00:04:52:04 - 00:05:22:02
Speaker 3
Communication theory just basically says that when, when a crisis happens, it's one of three different kinds. There's victim, which would be like an act of terrorism. There's accident. That would be kind of like a technical malfunction. And then there's preventable, which are like intentional misdeeds by employees or just, you know, sheer negligence. And so that theory says that people attribute more or less responsibility to the organization that's in crisis, based on what kind of crisis has happened.

00:05:22:04 - 00:05:44:23
Speaker 3
And then it also says that there are certain intensifiers that can actually move everything up higher. And so one of those is performance history, which is basically the rapport that organizations have with publics before a crisis happens or is perceived to have with them. And the second part is crisis history, which in a theoretical sense means an organization's previous crises.

00:05:44:23 - 00:06:12:06
Speaker 3
But, I know that when other people outside of crisis history, academic crisis history, they think about literal crisis history as well. So that's how my, research also bridges into looking at historical crises like the Great Depression, the flu of 1918, the, polio epidemic, HIV Aids epidemics as well, to see how we can actually have insight even from all those years ago.

00:06:12:06 - 00:06:34:20
Speaker 3
And that helps us today because I think oftentimes people think that, you know, if it happened before the advent of the internet or social media, that there's no use to us. Well, that's not exactly true. Like, yes, the challenges and maybe the communication landscape might be different, but in more ways than not, I think there's really nothing new under the sun.

00:06:34:22 - 00:06:38:22
Speaker 3
And so I try my best to show people that.

00:06:39:00 - 00:07:12:13
Speaker 1
Yeah, well, and I think, you know, one of the things that's probably changed more is I would say a couple of things. One is the immediacy in which the information gets out, and then secondly, the ability to get it out so broad. And it was interesting as you were really talking about how you got to where you were and that that professional experience, I think is really key for doing that bridge so that as crisis professionals, you know, we understand the importance of strategy, we understand the historical context.

00:07:12:15 - 00:07:43:21
Speaker 1
And at least in my experience of, you know, close to 30 years in this industry, you know, I found that in a lot of times, those sudden breaking crises are a lot easier to manage than the preventable ones that that built up over time. And, and, you know, you presented some really, fascinating research. I believe it was in, in Denmark recently, and it's called The Trust Factor rethinking multinational Companies and health organizations Impact on public health and safety crises.

00:07:43:23 - 00:08:02:10
Speaker 1
And I want to get again to the public health and safety part in a little bit. But what I thought was really interesting about that was this concept, that you and the team are working on of, of trust erosion. Can you give a little bit of background as to what is trust erosion, and how does that help?

00:08:02:12 - 00:08:07:10
Speaker 1
Practitioners try and understand and conceptualize how to deal with crises.

00:08:07:12 - 00:08:41:08
Speaker 3
Right? So firstly, I'm sure many I'm sure you and many others are familiar with Edelman's Trust Barometer. I think they've been doing that annual, survey, of people across the world for, I think, at least 20 years now. Don't quote me on that. But for a while now they've been doing this annual survey. And so for the past two years, that trust barometer actually indicated that there was declining trust in government and health organizations, but an increased trust and business, which was surprising, I think, to a lot of people.

00:08:41:10 - 00:09:03:12
Speaker 3
Maybe not Edelman, but I feel like everybody else was thinking, oh my goodness, what big business is who people trust the most. And so the team of researchers that you mentioned and I, thought, oh my gosh, we gotta look at this closer, because who would have thought ever that people would look to business as the most trusted social institution?

00:09:03:14 - 00:09:33:10
Speaker 3
And when you put that in this whole kind of landscape of Covid, that still continues to go on now. But, other like social issues that have been going on across the world, it's a really interesting time for that to be happening. Because if you think about the Covid example, if government and health organizations are not trusted, but businesses are, then the people, the experts that have the information that folks actually need, they don't have the trust.

00:09:33:10 - 00:10:08:13
Speaker 3
And those those people. And so then on the flip side of that, these multinational companies that do have this newfound trust, they also then have to decide, you know, are we going to continue just to be focused on the bottom line, which would be completely acceptable as well, even though we know we're the most trusted social institution now or are we going to take on this newfound role and actually see what new, you know, what new role we need to play in helping not just Covid, but other social issues because people trust us the most now.

00:10:08:15 - 00:10:57:10
Speaker 3
And so our team really believe that this whole kind of, juxtaposition of that created this ethical dilemma also for organizations that that have to make that decision because oftentimes not only are they not equipped to really do that, they aren't the experts in it. And so what we really believe ultimately, is that this whole trust erosion and this shift from those organizations and institutions that have the information that people need, we think that it's going to require some unconventional partnerships between multinational organizations, between individuals and governments and health organizations, because at the end of the day, hopefully we all want to work towards what's best for the overall good of mankind, of the whole

00:10:57:10 - 00:11:38:23
Speaker 3
world. But you know who who's supposed to do that? And so, I would say, and maybe I'm a bit naive in this belief, but I think that public relations professionals and chief communication officers are in a really unique position to really be able to move this forward, because our whole job is to be aware, really all the things in the company and where a lot of other functional areas work in silos and don't really talk to each other unless they have to communicate, is have to be in the know about all of that internally, but also are responders in are the ones that are in the communities that are also keeping the ear

00:11:38:23 - 00:11:54:02
Speaker 3
to the ground to see what's going on. And so I think that we're in a very unique position where we can hopefully help our organizations move towards this, you know, shared understanding and shared goal of helping the overall public good.

00:11:54:04 - 00:12:20:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. And trust is a really interesting thing in that, you know, you want to work so hard to earn it. And once you earn that mantle of trust, you have to hold that mantle of trust. And as you said, really with the impact of Covid, when you look at the impact of changing societal forces and issues, when you look at the impact of very deliberate misinformation, it can be a very tricky spot to be.

00:12:20:04 - 00:12:45:13
Speaker 1
And one of the things I thought was interesting, based on on the work that the team is doing, is really this concept of a trust erosion management system to me, you know, really was a good example of what we talked about earlier of putting together kind of that that academic thought and view and the rigor in the study with practical systems or ways of working.

00:12:45:13 - 00:12:55:20
Speaker 1
Can you talk a little bit about what is trust erosion and what is the management system that that your team is proposing for communications professionals?

00:12:55:22 - 00:13:22:01
Speaker 3
Absolutely. So going off of this whole idea that trust is erosion eroding for certain industries, but has been, is growing and others we are proposing a framework. And basically what we believe is that trust erosion mirrors kind of the soil erosion process, where once it starts, there are certain things that you can do to mitigate it, but you can't stop it entirely.

00:13:22:01 - 00:14:00:05
Speaker 3
And so depending on how fast that erosion is happening, there are different strategies and different approaches to make it slow down that you can use. But if it's happening more quickly, then of course there are other means to stop it. And so when it comes to trusting erosion, we believe that there are moderate weather factors that kind of contribute to like the gradual erosion of trust and those kind of things that be like the misinformation that you mentioned, Steve, or disinformation, but also, historical crises, and those footprints from years before, that can kind of help to slowly erode trust.

00:14:00:10 - 00:14:35:09
Speaker 3
And then also the legitimate legitimacy of topics and of issues that might slowly be growing. Those things are what we would refer to as moderate weather factors that can slowly, erode trust. But then we also have what we call extreme weather factors. And those are things like the increased polarization of our society and the, increased politicization that really, kind of makes people, you know, emboldened or enraged and that can really make this whole erosion of trust happen much faster.

00:14:35:11 - 00:14:59:08
Speaker 3
We also believe that, volatile social climates and, social justice violations, political instability, all of those types of things are extreme weather factors that can make trust erosion happen much faster. And then we also have other types of crises, like there's an idea of like sticky crises where, you know, it might not necessarily be a crisis.

00:14:59:08 - 00:15:22:08
Speaker 3
It only affects one organization on one industry, but has ripple effects. And the same goes for like spillover crises where the origin is in one place. But for whatever reason, it expands beyond and has a really great impact. And so all of those things are also gravitational pulls that are pulling this trust, away from certain organizations and industries.

00:15:22:12 - 00:15:54:06
Speaker 3
But it's going elsewhere to those that are actually gaining trust. And so for that, when we think about this whole idea of those where the factors, we also believe that the trust erosion process is cyclical. So even though today governments and health organizations are the ones that are suffering from trust erosion, that then those like multinational companies and business, they're actually in a trust maintenance phase where their trust isn't eroding.

00:15:54:08 - 00:16:29:06
Speaker 3
But we really believe that no matter where you are in that process, you have to be aware of your position at that time, because there are different things that you would need to do as far as strategy is concerned, to try to take advantage. If you're in the trust maintenance phase or if you're in the trust erosion, phase that you would need to do to help rely on, you know, industry or community partners and other, external groups that might be able to help you get the information still that you need and hopefully regain the trust that is being lost.

00:16:29:09 - 00:16:57:06
Speaker 1
Yeah, I, I love the analogy of using, weather erosion and whether it's, you know, something that builds over time or whether it's like a hurricane or a flood that really just comes in, very quickly, I think that's a really apt way to, to help. People visualize it. The other thing I think is interesting when when I think about the flow of the trust erosion system, it's got multiple, multiple parts.

00:16:57:06 - 00:17:26:11
Speaker 1
You know, you talked about either trust maintenance or trust erosion, but it's this idea that when a crisis happens or when you're in that situation, the cycle goes through phases of mitigation, redirection, restoration, prevention, preservation and conservation. What I think is really interesting about that cyclical process is a lot of times when people come into crises, they think, well, we're going to return back to normal or we're going to return back to where we are.

00:17:26:13 - 00:17:47:10
Speaker 1
What I think is really interesting about that cycle is you're you're moving to a new place as you manage, as you navigate to the, to the crisis, or at least at least that's my take. When you're moving from a mitigation to redirection, it means that however you react to the crisis, you are moving the organization to a new place.

00:17:47:10 - 00:17:54:06
Speaker 1
And then I guess I would postulate you're moving your trust to a new place. Is that an accurate way to think about it?

00:17:54:08 - 00:18:23:02
Speaker 3
Yes, absolutely. And hopefully I know for organizations that that can happen faster. You know, because nobody wants to be, down on the low end where they are losing trust. But yes, exactly. That's exactly what it is. And so I think it also can be optimistic to see that is cyclical as well, because just because you might not have trust right now as an organization or an industry, our hope was not lost.

00:18:23:02 - 00:18:52:14
Speaker 3
And so, what we're offering in those stages that you mentioned, Steve, is also suggestions for how you strategize depending on where you are in this whole cyclical phase of trust erosion. And so I think that that really, is key is identifying where you are quickly, but then developing a, strategic mindset to figure out how you can move your organization out of that particular place if it is a part of trust erosion.

00:18:52:17 - 00:19:01:06
Speaker 3
But if you are in the maintenance phase, but also thinking about how can we continue to maintain what we have and to conserve it as well?

00:19:01:08 - 00:19:30:06
Speaker 1
Yeah. And one of the things I think, I think is really interesting about, you know, as you think about the theory that you're working on with trust erosion and that management system, really the concept that you're doing of using social media to study trust for more of an academic, setting. And what I'm really intrigued at is, you know, the studies looking at social media because it's major channel of health information dissemination.

00:19:30:08 - 00:19:57:04
Speaker 1
It's a major channel of health misinformation. You know, quite honestly, you can capture some emotive exchanges. There's a bit of an echo chamber, effect, but maybe you can talk a little bit about why you chose social media, how you're using that to really kind of gauge and track trust. And then I guess the second part of that is based on the success of really determining that.

00:19:57:10 - 00:20:10:20
Speaker 1
What are the lessons to corporate communicators or to CMOs as to how they need to be instructing their teams to think about these social media indicators, to help them manage trust?

00:20:10:22 - 00:20:40:16
Speaker 3
Awesome. So for the social media part of this study, we actually are looking at official tweets from W.H.O., the World Health Organization, and then also from the centers for Disease Control and Prevention. And the reason that we focused on on them for this particular part of the study is because they were issued and continued to put a lot of health information out as the authorities, or the respective authorities as far as health information goes.

00:20:40:18 - 00:21:08:10
Speaker 3
And so we know, even the CDC, you know, admitted earlier, or a few months ago that they had a pretty big failure when it came to communicate and regarding Covid. But we also know that this whole idea of declining trust in government and health organizations, we need to figure out, you know, other indications of what we might be able to do from that perspective with those organizations to improve that.

00:21:08:10 - 00:21:43:04
Speaker 3
And so but this part of the study, we're looking at the sentiment, in the day, immediately following some key, announcements from both the CDC and the W.H.O. to see how people responded. And we're really fortunate to have somebody on our team from A-star in Singapore. And they have, this machine learning that they've created called Crystal field, where they can look at sentiment and they can even look at certain discrete emotions that are, that are being articulated through people's comments to those official tweets.

00:21:43:04 - 00:22:13:20
Speaker 3
And so we're in the process of, analyzing that data, too, because we also think that perhaps just like this trustee roles and encyclical, that depending on what point we were in the pandemic, that's what we're looking at for that particular analysis, that it kind of ebbs and flows. And so, people's, you know, anger or sadness or fear might have been at certain levels at the beginning of the pandemic and maybe tapered off and then maybe increased later.

00:22:13:20 - 00:22:38:18
Speaker 3
And so we're even hoping that we might be able to look at things chronologically, to see where there might have been dramatic changes in people's sentiment, because that also can be connected to behavioral outcomes. I mean, not this particular analysis, but it at least can give us insight in say, you know, people at the beginning were, you know, in a heightened sense of fear because of the unknown.

00:22:38:18 - 00:23:00:00
Speaker 3
And we don't really like uncertainty and unknown things. And so that might have been, our prime opportunity to get information to them. But once they see that the guidelines are ever changing, it seems daily. And then there's been this big announcement, you know, two and a half years later that, oh, we might not have done a great job.

00:23:00:02 - 00:23:26:11
Speaker 3
Then let's look and see what the sentiment was regarding that as well. And so even though this particular study is focused on the health organization, I still think that there will be lessons learned for, corporations, because just because the health organizations are the focus of this study, it will be a corporation and later and it might be in a different context, but I think a lot of the insight will translate there as well.

00:23:26:13 - 00:23:47:16
Speaker 1
So when you when you think about how that that insight translates, I mean, obviously a global pandemic is a really big thing that affects everybody in in a broad shape. And a lot of times with crises depending upon the industry and the company, it can have a very widespread impact. It can be very localized in terms of the nature.

00:23:47:18 - 00:24:09:19
Speaker 1
So I guess one of the questions, that I have just going back to you, you mentioned earlier, like the typical crises are victim accident, preventable, where would social media as a gauge, either as a crisis management tool or as an ES as assessment of trust? You think it would be equally applicable in all types of crises, or is it more?

00:24:09:21 - 00:24:16:00
Speaker 1
Does it lend itself a little bit more to something that's got a little bit of a longer tail to it?

00:24:16:02 - 00:24:48:11
Speaker 3
I think it really depends more on the organization or the industry that's experiencing the crisis, because depending on where the stakeholders or target audience, whatever time you want to use, I know some people don't want to use stakeholders anymore, but whoever you're trying to reach, wherever they are, I think is really firstly, the thing to consider because if your target audience, if your main demographics are not on social media, then no, it's not the best place to look to see how to handle it.

00:24:48:11 - 00:25:10:10
Speaker 3
But for more far reaching, crises like the pandemic or we, we could think about even back to 2008 with the, the, the great Recession, you know, if your audience is out there and if the impacts are far reaching, then I do think social media is an easy tool to look at, but I don't think it should be the only thing.

00:25:10:15 - 00:25:31:14
Speaker 3
So, for example, in the study that I just talked about with social media, in addition to us doing that analysis, we're also completing interviews with CCL from all over the world. Right now to really delve into this whole idea of trust erosion, to make sure that we get insight from the boots on the ground to hear that, yes, this is how it happens.

00:25:31:19 - 00:26:00:02
Speaker 3
And maybe, you know, ideally this could happen, but here are the reasons that we think it might be a challenge. And so I think in whatever the crisis is, whether it's a big, spillover crisis like the pandemic is, or if it's more, more unique or not more unique, but if a smaller scale but maybe impact a whole industry versus the whole world, I still think those are really important considerations.

00:26:00:02 - 00:26:25:08
Speaker 3
So we can't put all our eggs in the social media basket, but we definitely should use it when we can. And from a researcher perspective, fortunately, I don't know how long this will last, but the Twitter API is fairly open. And so it really lends itself to research like that versus some of the other social media platforms that we don't have the same access to.

00:26:25:10 - 00:26:40:08
Speaker 3
Who knows if that will continue with the recent, leadership change at Twitter. But, it gives a really good opportunity to at least get some insight and some, direction in how we might go with even other studies.

00:26:40:10 - 00:27:01:15
Speaker 1
Well, well, I hope that that API stays open and that the users stay there to allow that to be a good tool for study, both from an academic standpoint and from corporations looking to manage, trust and their reputation and, and issues. And, you know, since we mentioned Twitter, I don't want to put you too much on the spot.

00:27:01:15 - 00:27:21:19
Speaker 1
But to me, they they strike me as a really good example of a multinational company that's dealing with some serious trust erosion. So based on your kind of system, what, what what advice do you have or where are they in the cycle? Has the bottom fallen out or are we are we still going to?

00:27:21:20 - 00:27:46:18
Speaker 3
To be honest, and I don't even know if I should say this, but as soon as Elon Musk became a part of the conversation, for me, the trust was already leaving because we know that and I don't know, I haven't done my research recently, but we know that he basically cut his public relations department. He eliminated it. And so I don't know if that was maybe 2 or 3 years ago, but fairly recently.

00:27:46:23 - 00:28:08:03
Speaker 3
And when I saw that happen, with him, when I saw him do that, I have flashbacks to when I was an undergraduate student, and when I was learning how we had to make sure we could demonstrate that we were a value added because we could be on the chopping block at any moment. And I really thought that we had grown from that as an industry, as a field.

00:28:08:08 - 00:28:35:14
Speaker 3
But when he did that, I was thinking, you know, oh boy, if he continues to have success, then I don't want other organizations to follow suit. So whenever I saw his name after that, he already had lost credibility with me anyways because I know how valuable, strategic communication, public relations, all of that is. And so for him to basically say we don't need it, I really question that.

00:28:35:14 - 00:29:12:17
Speaker 3
So now with him, being in control of Twitter, I just, I really don't know. An early indication is that it's not looking great. And so I think as an industry, we have to have conversations about what that really means from not only, or I will say primarily, I think the ethical perspective because like you mentioned, you know, misinformation and disinformation that now is going to be more readily available, and people being able to purchase, you know, the blue check and that kind of thing.

00:29:12:19 - 00:29:45:11
Speaker 3
I think all of those things are, huge red flags of where it might be going. Of course, I don't have a crystal ball, so I can't predict it. But I do think that as communicators, we already should be even before these things. Actually, before the transition actually happened. As soon as we saw that this was a possibility in this, this, deal was on the books and in the works, hopefully we were at least having a conversation amongst ourselves about what that might mean for us, as a profession.

00:29:45:11 - 00:29:50:11
Speaker 3
And if not, shame on us. We need to get on it right now.

00:29:50:13 - 00:30:13:10
Speaker 1
Yeah, I definitely think this is an area where there's going to be a lot of a lot of discussion and it's, you know, and and, you know, it's going to be about, you know, big concepts, but also some of the nuances of, you know, how can you have an open public square where voices can be heard, which is a very different from somebody walking into a crowded theater and screaming fire.

00:30:13:10 - 00:30:35:14
Speaker 1
I mean, they're they're they're very different things. So like you said, I think as an industry, this is going to be a very interesting ethical decision. And also just in counseling clients, whether, you know, to continue to support the platform to use the advertising, this is certainly going to be, something that's going to kind of evolve over time.

00:30:35:16 - 00:30:52:00
Speaker 1
So what about somebody who's doing it right? Are there are there good examples that you've seen or best practices that you would really like to point our listeners to to say, hey, if you want to understand how somebody has done it right, this is a good example.

00:30:52:02 - 00:30:58:09
Speaker 3
Absolutely. So I always like to start with Ben and Jerry's, because I think in this whole kind of social class.

00:30:58:09 - 00:31:10:18
Speaker 1
Oh, I'm sorry, I got to interrupt you. My absolute favorite American dream. Without a doubt. My favorite Ben and Jerry's flavor. Vanilla caramel crunch, little swirl. Oh, it's good stuff.

00:31:10:18 - 00:31:22:12
Speaker 3
I have to take that one now. I wasn't familiar with it, but it sounds like it would be my favorite team, so I'm going to have to look for it next time I go shopping. Yeah. And Jerry's, you can send me my check.

00:31:22:14 - 00:31:23:11
Speaker 1
Yeah, they.

00:31:23:13 - 00:31:24:18
Speaker 3
Endorsement of you?

00:31:24:18 - 00:31:43:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. I think it was originally created, for Stephen Colbert when he was doing, the, the parody show, but sorry, American Dream, my all time favorite, Ben Jerry's. So I'm. I'm sorry, doctor Eddie, you said that they are an example of a company that's doing it right. Other than delicious ice cream, how are they getting their comps?

00:31:43:23 - 00:31:44:18
Speaker 1
Right?

00:31:44:20 - 00:32:11:19
Speaker 3
I think so, because, you know, people think that this whole idea of like social justice, social advocacy, CSR is fairly new. But Ben and Jerry's was founded and has always been in the business of helping make the world a better place. And so I, I can't remember exactly what their home mission is, but I know it has something to do with, basically making the world better through ice cream.

00:32:11:19 - 00:32:41:22
Speaker 3
And I know that that's literal. But also, you know, figuratively speaking, they do that. And so I think that they are the exemplar when it comes to companies who are sure and solid in what their purpose is. And then they actually live and act by it. Because I think in our current climate, a lot of organizations, you know, end up being performative in a lot of their initiatives and what they do, and I think is because they forget to first rely on what their purpose is.

00:32:42:00 - 00:33:07:01
Speaker 3
And and so I think that that Ben and Jerry's has been doing a great for a long time. And another company that I think more recently, I would say, you know, in the past decade or so that has really been making great strides. And that is target. And, you know, they did have, I think maybe back in 2017, around that time, a slight mishap, I would say, where they were talking about, you know, the bathroom bills and that kind of thing.

00:33:07:01 - 00:33:45:17
Speaker 3
It and I, you know, I wonder why would they insert themselves into this conversation if they even if they've already had that policy in their dressing rooms for, for years prior, why would they try to insert themselves in that conversation now? And I have no internal perspective at all. But, I'm thinking that perhaps they really had some really great intentions and maybe just didn't have the right people around the table at that time to say, hey, let's take a step back to see if really we should be inserting ourselves into this conversation versus, you know, possibly being prepared to respond about our policy.

00:33:45:19 - 00:34:15:19
Speaker 3
If we are asked. And so that I would say was not the greatest moment for them. But since then, when it comes to like, examples of making sure that their initiatives are not falling flat because they're, they're, not being performative, I think they're really great with, how authentic and how strategic they've been with incorporating, diverse perspectives and making sure that they actually have a seat at their table, even as a consumer, I think is really clear.

00:34:16:00 - 00:34:38:04
Speaker 3
Anytime I walk into a target store, whatever observance is going on right now, I can tell that, it's, you know, they've been strategic. And have they do that? There have been some other examples. I won't mention the companies where they slap a label on it and think that because it says Juneteenth, that people are going to be happy and we're going to hold hands and saying, come back.

00:34:38:05 - 00:35:03:22
Speaker 3
Yeah. And it really it can't work that way. And I think more than one company has seen that. But target really puts in the time and the effort and even for the different observances that they have, you know, that they sell things for, they show how they actually are investing. They, they talk about the process involved in selecting what they are carrying for those different observances.

00:35:03:22 - 00:35:41:06
Speaker 3
And so I really think that intentional effort to show that not only are we talking the talk, we're also walking the walk so that what we do is not performative. I think that's game changing, and I think that more companies need to do that. But at the end of the day, it has to be about organizational purpose. And so anything that a company has, whether it's related to, you know, proactive crisis management, responding to prices, but also deciding how and if they might respond to the different social justice issues that might come up.

00:35:41:08 - 00:36:13:22
Speaker 3
Purpose has to be the guiding light, has to be the compass for how they decide if and when they're going to talk about it and what that looks like. And lastly, I will say southwest is a really great example internally of that as well, because when it comes to these social justice issues, that can just bubble up sometimes out of nowhere, when you're a big company like southwest, you know, moving that big ship and being able to respond timely can be really difficult because there's so much red tape.

00:36:14:00 - 00:36:51:21
Speaker 3
And so I have a lot of respect and admiration for them, because once they realized that this was potentially going to be an issue, that was going to continue to come up, they really spent the time between crises of between these social justice issues to develop a system internally and to get it up the chain to make sure that we have, a very fluid and live way where we can answer certain questions and make sure that if we are going to respond to something and, and if we decide to respond to it, that ultimately is still supporting what our overall purpose and kind of what their strategic pillars are.

00:36:51:21 - 00:37:21:22
Speaker 3
And so I think that was brilliant on their behalf, on their part, because when it comes, you don't have time often to work and that everything up the ladder, because that could take days or weeks. And, and we know because of social media and because of change and expectations of stakeholders, we don't have that kind of time always in silence, even if we are behind the scenes doing the work to get a response or to make a statement.

00:37:21:23 - 00:37:45:20
Speaker 3
Time is of the essence. And so I think more companies need to look for ways to have processes like that in place so that they can equip their chief communication officers and their chief communicators and be able to respond timely, but also to make sure that is more than just, you know, that performative saying the right thing when we know we can't actually back it up.

00:37:45:22 - 00:38:11:21
Speaker 1
Yeah, I, I couldn't agree more that it comes down to really having clarity of purpose and being true to that, because that's really when you get those key points that you talked about, the authenticity, you know, having the right counselors in place to give the strategic advice and to be very intentional as you mentioned, when you want to insert yourself in the conversation or determine when you want to pull back and look at when you're asked.

00:38:11:22 - 00:38:44:18
Speaker 1
And then through it all, understanding the importance of really needing to communicate with employees because they are they are your company. They are your brand. They're at the center of it. Well, this has been absolutely, fascinating discussion. And I could I could spend the entire day, talking through these. But but I guess as we get ready to close here, you know, thinking about all the things we discussed today, thinking about all the conversations you're having with global CEOs, what what advice do you have for senior communicators?

00:38:45:00 - 00:39:05:23
Speaker 1
What is it that they need to think about? Top three lessons about trust or crisis management that that they should really get out of? Get out of sticky tab. Write down these are the three things that, that that Professor Eddie says I really need to think about to be better at counseling and doing my job well.

00:39:05:23 - 00:39:35:07
Speaker 3
Firstly, I would say regarding trust erosion or trust maintenance, it would be to first identify where you are and use whatever tools you have, available to you to determine that, you know, larger companies I'm sure are monitoring that on a regular basis. But I know everyone doesn't have that, availability. But listening to stakeholders and doing research, as much as you can to find out where you actually stand.

00:39:35:09 - 00:39:53:19
Speaker 3
So that then you can move forward and try to, look for ways externally to create partnerships. If you see that you are not very trusted, but then also look for ways to maintain it. If if trust is, not a problem for you right now. So that would be the first thing. The second thing would be purpose.

00:39:53:19 - 00:40:20:19
Speaker 3
Like I was just talking about. I think that it seems so obvious that organizations should be using their purpose, you know, as a guiding light. But but I think that sometimes common sense is not common. And things that we think are obvious or not. And so I would just say really, across the board making sure that everything that's happening as an organization is rooted and grounded in the overall organizational purpose is essential.

00:40:20:22 - 00:40:50:10
Speaker 3
But that goes down to, you know, from an internal culture perspective. So your employees not only need to know what your mission and purpose is, they need to see it demonstrated. Like if the organization doesn't demonstrate and doesn't have a culture that is in alignment with what it espouses to have as a as a purpose and a mission, then that's a big problem because employees are your number one asset, because without your employees, nothing happens.

00:40:50:12 - 00:41:27:07
Speaker 3
And then if you do determine that there's this kind of dis alignment between those things, you have to do all you can to improve that culture, because if that doesn't happen, then I think it is definitely, a course towards a bigger crisis when when the culture is not there to back up what's being said. And so then lastly, what I would say is in this day I talk a lot, here at the end about this whole idea of like social justice and companies having to be a part of those conversations that, you know, ten, 20 years ago, they wouldn't have touched with a ten foot pole.

00:41:27:13 - 00:41:52:05
Speaker 3
Well, that that time has changed now. And so I really think Steve, communicators, if they aren't on that boat, they need to start to talk to other parts of the C-suite to let them know. It's not a matter of if we'll ever have to deal with these things and speak about them. It's a matter of when. And so in order for us to handle it well, we need to proactively be looking at this.

00:41:52:07 - 00:42:15:03
Speaker 3
And I know that back to the whole culture, conversation, that depending on the culture that may or may not be, easy, you know, that might be a really heavy lift and a tall order for a chief communicator to be able to say that. But at the end of the day, there's this whole idea. We have corporate social advocacy and responsibility from an organization perspective.

00:42:15:05 - 00:42:46:05
Speaker 3
But at the individual level, there's also what we would call more entrepreneurship, which basically is kind of CSA, CSR. But in the individual equal, ability. And so we need leaders that are more entrepreneurs and that are given the leeway to be that person, to say, hey, this might sound like a good idea, but for these reasons, especially rooted in our purpose and for whatever else is going on in the internal and external terrain, this is why we shouldn't do it.

00:42:46:05 - 00:43:11:19
Speaker 3
And so I think that those companies that can have this whole kind of culture of openness that allows the chief communicator to also be the ethical compass and the, you know, to offer expertise in these sort of situations that we really haven't had to deal with before. I think those are the companies that are going to do really great and that aren't going to be the ones doing the performative work.

00:43:11:19 - 00:43:20:17
Speaker 3
And, that people are going to recognize are actually serious about making, you know, impactful changes that last for a long time.

00:43:20:21 - 00:43:44:05
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's, that's that's really powerful. Guidance, you know, to really making sure you're making most of the available tools using purpose as your guiding light, realizing it's no longer a matter of if it's when you're going to need to communicate on these key issues, creating the processes and culture of openness, I think, is, is tremendous advice.

00:43:44:07 - 00:44:05:00
Speaker 1
So, Doctor Eddie, thank you so much for joining us on, on building brand gravity. For those of you listening, I would, strongly suggest that if you like what you've heard today to reach out to, to Doctor Edie. She is, a very, well known, public speaker. So she could be available for for that.

00:44:05:02 - 00:44:19:19
Speaker 1
I'm sure she'd be happy to talk to you to give, advice and counsel and she's also a really, noted author. So, so, Doctor Edie, it was an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for for sharing your perspective with us today.

00:44:19:21 - 00:44:21:11
Speaker 3
Thank you for having me.

00:44:21:13 - 00:44:35:08
Speaker 1
Wonderful. And if you like what you're hearing, we invite you to follow and subscribe to Building Brand Gravity. Thank you very much and have a great day.

00:44:35:10 - 00:45:11:15
Speaker 2
You are listening to Building Brand Gravity Attracting People into Your Orbit, a business communications podcast. This is a show for communicate pros across industries looking to gain an inside view into industry influence. You're about to hear a conversation with leading industry professionals talking about the importance of building business impact through sound brand strategy. Let's get into the show.